Classic Interview: Tackling “Big Life Issues” with Randy Alcorn

Hey there. Thanks for listening to the Greg Laurie Podcast, a ministry supported by Harvest Partners. I'm Greg Laurie encouraging you.

If you want to find out more about Harvest Ministries and learn more about how to become a Harvest Partner, just go to harvest.org. Randy Alcorn is a prolific author. He's written over 30 books. A number of fiction titles. He's a great fiction writer.

Titles like Deadline, Dominion, Deception. As well as other books like The Grace and Truth Paradox, The Law of Rewards, The Purity Principle, The Treasure Principle. He's probably best known for this book here called Heaven which I think is the finest book I've ever read on the subject. And I've read a lot of books about heaven.

Especially since my son went to be with the Lord. I've always taught on this topic and obviously believed in it. But I've really studied it and this is just an outstanding book. And then also his latest book is called If God is Good. And it's on the topic of suffering.

And so it answers a lot of those hard questions. So we're really glad that Randy could be with us. He used to be a pastor but now he uses most of his time to write these outstanding books that bless people all around the world.

And he doesn't travel that much these days but he made time in his calendar to be with us. And I'm really glad and I know you're going to be blessed by what he has to say. So let's give a warm Harvest welcome to Randy Alcorn as he comes. There we go. Randy welcome. Thanks. Stella is hard to follow.

Yes she is. Ok well in our last interview we used the time up so quickly so I'm just going to dive right in Randy. There's so much to talk about. But in your book If God is Good you make this statement and I'll quote. Most of us don't give enough thought to evil and suffering until we experience them. This forces us to formulate perspective on the fly at a time when our thinking is muddled and we're exhausted and consumed by pressing issues. People who have been there will attest that it's far better to think through suffering in advance. We're all going to suffer. And it's the big question that people will ask is why is there suffering in the world today?

So maybe you could just give us a quick response to just the big issue. Why is there suffering in the world today? The Bible tells us that we're under a curse because of sin.

You see it early in Genesis. God makes his perfect world. He gives the gift of choice.

Wrong choice is made. Adam and Eve sin. We're told in Romans 5 we all sinned in Adam. The curse that came upon them also came upon the earth. It came upon their children. We experience it today. Romans 8 says the whole creation groans with a longing for the redemption that will come with the resurrection of God's children. So suffering happens in our world. It's part of the curse. We're living in a fallen world.

To be redeemed one day in the future. But maybe the question becomes more personal when people ask, yeah but why does God allow good people to suffer? And more to the point godly people to suffer. You know it's one thing when we just hear of tragedy in the world and it's so far away. But when it comes to our doorstep and a loved one close to us gets cancer or we ourselves get bad news from a doctor.

Or as in our case you know to one day wake up and our son of 33 years is suddenly no longer with us on this earth. And we wonder why did God let that happen? Why does God allow a Christian to suffer? The Bible actually gives a number of different reasons for suffering.

Certainly there is character building. There's character and perseverance and patience that Romans talks about that comes out of suffering. The fruit of the spirit that's born in our lives as we're more dependent upon him. 2 Corinthians 12.

Paul's got the thorn in the flesh. This affliction and God says my strength is made perfect and weakness. You know Christ said apart from me you can do nothing and often when things are going well for us we just sort of do it on our own.

And nothing comes from that. We forget about God a little bit don't we? Exactly and it's when we know that we lack the power.

It's when we're reminded as we are in life's hardest circumstances. I'm not in control. Any illusion of control is gone. Now I turn to the one hopefully who is in control. God and who has run the universe without my help in the past and will run the universe without my help in the future.

And what I need to do is to say I'm not in charge but I know the one who is in charge and that makes all the difference. We talk about the sovereignty of God. You talk about God being in control. Is he in control? Is he really aware of all the bad things that are happening? Are some things just happening randomly and God's preoccupied?

How involved is the Lord in these things and how aware of them is he? There's an interesting passage in Chronicles where the evil king Ahab was going out into battle and he dressed up somebody else to look like him so that that other person would be the target. And it talks about some soldier, an enemy, that fires the arrow and it uses the term randomly that this arrow randomly shot ends up falling and hitting King Ahab and killing him in battle. So a randomly fired arrow reaches the exact target God intended which was this evil king.

So how does that work? How can there be randomness and yet how can God be sovereign? And how can Satan, who we know is very powerful, he's called the god of this world, prince of the power of the air, darkness, all of that kind of stuff, how can he do these things and yet God still be in control? Well, you see Joseph who says to his brothers in Genesis 50 verse 20, you intended it for evil.

They did a thing that was inspired by Satan to betray your brother and throw him in that pit and sell him into slavery. That was horrifying what they did and yet he says you intended it for evil but God intended it for good to save many lives. Not just God will bring good out of it and did bring good out of it but God intended it. God had a plan from the beginning and Ephesians 1 makes that clear. God from eternity past has this plan. In Romans 8 28 God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God and he is working out that plan.

Now in all humility we must say we don't always understand that plan and in the midst of evil and suffering don't just snap your fingers and go oh well obviously God's doing this, God's doing that. Don't worry about the tragic situation you've just endured because it's really all for the best. That is completely insensitive and inappropriate to say. What is appropriate to say is I love you weep with those who weep. Rejoice with those who rejoice. I'm there for you.

I love you. Yeah sometimes when people are trying to bring comfort to a Christian they may even say things that are correct but maybe they're said in the wrong way. A little too cavalier about it. Just kind of rattle off a bunch of passages you know since you know we went through all that we've gone through and are going through it doesn't end you know. It just changes in what you're experiencing. The sense of loss. The sense of pain is still there. But I think what I find myself doing more now Randy is listening more.

I mean I'm not so quick on the draw with the answer. I still will give biblical verses in the appropriate way. But at the same time I will listen to a person. And you know you talk about how we should weep with those that weep.

I interviewed Stephen Curtis Chapman a while back and you know of course his little daughter Maria Sue was killed in a tragic car accident. And I said, so Stephen what was said that really helped you? And he said you know the best thing that was said was there are no words.

And there is a place for just being there. Remember the story of Job and his counselors. They actually had it together when they kept their mouths shut didn't they? It's when they started talking trouble began. Yeah they were there for Job for a whole week. Didn't say anything.

They were there just to empathize with him. And their problems began when they started talking. And what we've got to do is you know there is there's a time to be silent. Ecclesiastes tells us this and there's a time to speak. Proverbs is full of verses that talk about an apt word spoken in the right time.

And the wrong word spoken in the wrong time or even the right word but in the wrong time. Romans 8 28 is a classic example. I mean Romans 8 28 is inspired by God. So you would think it would always be right to quote it right. But somebody's daughter dies of leukemia do you look at them and you can say well God causes all things to work together for good.

So you know don't feel bad because this is no no that's completely insensitive. The thing that scripture does is it gives us permission to ask questions of God the inspired word of God. You have David asking why are the heavens silent. Lord why why aren't you hearing me when I pray. Have you given up on me. My God my God why have you forsaken me.

David said that in Psalm 22 and of course Jesus said it on the cross. There are going to be times where there's darkness in our lives. Some of us including myself have battled some with depression and there are times of darkness that come.

Sometimes they relate to certain circumstances other times not that you can put your finger on. But in the midst of them we need to look to the God who shed his blood for us on a cross. And one day we'll look at those hands and he may look at us and say do these look like the hands of a God who does not care.

All those times you wondered if I cared do you have any doubts now. Romans 8 28. Let's come back to that. It is inspired by God. We don't get it in the moment.

It's in process. All things better translation would be are working together for good to those that love God. I mean there are times in life where a bad thing will happen. You can see a good thing come out of it. You can say I get that. Then there are things in life where you're going through them and you're saying I'm not getting this at all.

And then there are some things you say this is a mystery to me. But what is God's end game. First of all define what God means by good. And then what is his end game when we talk about things working together for good.

Big picture. Let's step away now from earth and step away and look at it from a heavenly perspective perhaps. I think one of the best passages in Scripture related to that is in Ephesians 1 where it talks about God's plan. And it talks about his redemptive plan in Christ.

That he has predestined us to be adopted as children through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace which he has freely given us in the one he loves. And it goes on to talk about that grace and it goes on in Ephesians 2 to talk about how in the ages to come God is going to be revealing to us the riches of his grace and his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Now if we didn't live in a world of evil and suffering we would not see this marvelous attribute of God, his grace that has been manifested to us in Christ. So why does God allow what he allows for the greater good, for an eternal good that is so good, so good beyond measure that even the sufferings and difficulties of this life cannot be compared. Romans 18 tells us this, the sufferings of this present time are not ready to be compared with the glory that will be revealed in us. He doesn't say the sufferings aren't real, oh they're very real and Paul knew all about them and he documents all the sufferings in his own life in the book of 2 Corinthians in chapter 10 especially. He knew what he was talking about. We face these sufferings but God has an ultimate plan and the goodness of that will be measured in the revelation of his character qualities and his grace which we will celebrate for all eternity.

Yes. Let's transition now to the topic that is hard for a lot of people to consider and that is death. Even sometimes Christians struggle with this. They are afraid to die.

I have a question from a girl named Melanie from my Facebook page. She said, even though I am a believer I am afraid to die. How should I view death as a Christian?

I am afraid of that moment when I pass from life to death. And then another person named Terry asks, could you please talk about the topic of soul sleep and what happens when you die? Do you go immediately to the Lord?

So let's just look at this for a moment Randy. Ok. Non-believer. They die.

What happens to them? Ok. First with that one question let me just say this in Hebrews 2 it says, Since the children have flesh and blood, Christ too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. And that is a bondage, the fear of death. And Christ came to deliver us from the ultimate consequences of death, that is of sin and the death it brings of eternal separation from God so that knowing now that we will spend eternity with Christ, we can say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. It is better by far, Paul says in Philippians, to depart and be with Christ. So I think that perspective on death is a huge one.

What was the second question? Ok. That is a believer. A believer dies and goes into the presence of the Lord. What happens to the non-believer when they die?

The non-believer dies and immediately, and we see this in Luke 16 with the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the unbeliever dies, true story, true story, this rich man dies and he immediately is suffering the fires of hell. And immediately Lazarus dies and he is with the people of God that is in the bosom of Abraham He is with Abraham at that point. And it appears that it is only after the resurrection of Christ that people who are in this paradise that is called Abraham's bosom are then taken directly in the very presence of God because of the redemptive work of Christ. But when the believer dies to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When the unbeliever dies it is to be in hell.

So when a believer dies they go straight to heaven as you have said. Now, where is heaven? Okay, heaven can be defined as the dwelling place of God. Now God is everywhere present, he is omnipresent, but he is especially present in heaven and he is especially present wherever his throne is said to be. His throne is said to be in heaven. So heaven is where God dwells especially and that is where his throne is. That is where people enjoy his presence when they die and go to be with the Lord. And the Bible teaches us that that location that is called heaven will actually change because in Revelation 21 we are told that God is going to bring down the present heaven, his very presence to earth. Look in Revelation chapter 21 verse 1 says new heaven and new earth and then it says in verse 2, I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for a husband. And then verse 3, and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying this, now the dwelling of God is with men.

This is the promise of God. He is going to come down and dwell with his people. The dwelling of God is with men.

Where? On this new earth, in this new Jerusalem. He is with men and he will live with them and they will be his people and God himself will be with them and be their gods.

Three times we have got this expression, with them. So God will come down to dwell with his people on the new earth. So right now when the believer dies we leave this world, this earth, and our spirits, our bodies stay here, they are corruptible. When we die, okay, then we, our spirits, we go to be with the Lord. So we go up to heaven to live with God in his place. That is where heaven is now. But we are told here that after the resurrection, which happens at the end of Revelation 20, that God is going to come down to this world where we with resurrected bodies and the resurrected Jesus will sit on the throne of the new Jerusalem and God will dwell down here with us so that the ultimate promise of Scripture is not simply that we go up to live with God in his place, but that God will come down to the new earth, a redeemed earth, to live with us in our place. Emmanuel, God with us, Jesus Christ will sit on that throne for all eternity. Right.

So let's get the big picture, kind of drawing from what you have said. Okay. Believer dies. They go straight into the presence of God. But the Bible teaches there is a bodily resurrection.

That is to come later. We have this resurrection. We are in this new body. Ultimately heaven comes to earth. The Lord said in the Lord's Prayer as we call it, Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

So that is really a fulfillment of that. And in the new Jerusalem in the latter part of the book of Revelation that comes down, heaven and earth effectively become one place. So we say well I am going to leave this old world and go to heaven.

Well that is true technically. But you are also going to have a new world when heaven comes to earth. Exactly. And that is a, Romans 8 would be a great passage to turn to because Romans 8 is full of references to the present evil and suffering of this world. And then it moves from, you look for instance in verse 19. The creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. The creation was subjected to frustration not by its own choice but by the will of him who subjected it in hope that, verse 21 of Romans 8, that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. So then verse 22 says we know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. But what happens in the pains of childbirth as opposed to the pains of death?

The pains of childbirth result in life. So we can look at our present sufferings not as just death the end of all things but as what is leading to an eternity of life, the promise of eternal life with God. So the whole creation fell in the wake of the choices made by Adam and Eve but it will all rise with us in the resurrection. So the whole creation will be redeemed. Jesus didn't just come in order to snatch our spirits from this world to another. He came to redeem this whole creation. And it doesn't mean that everybody will be saved. I'm not talking about universalism. Paul isn't talking about it. Yes, some people will go to hell.

But in terms of his creation God cares about animals, God cares about this world which I think there is a solid biblical basis for a Christian to be responsibly, not excessively, but responsibly concerned with and caring for the world God has entrusted to our care because this world itself will be one day made right again. All the re-words in the Bible. Redeem. Reconcile.

Reconcile. Renew. Resurrect is resurrect.

Bring back into bodily form. All those re-words are to bring back what was lost in the fall and bring it back in a greater form for all eternity because of the redemptive work of Christ. You know in Colossians 3 Paul says, Set your affection on things above, not on things of the earth. And really another way to translate that is constantly be thinking about or seeking heaven or a simplified version might be think heaven. And as we try to wrap our minds around this future place God has for us in heaven where we go to meet the Lord and then of course when we get our glorified body and heaven comes to earth still for many it is really hard for them to grasp.

It doesn't seem real to them. In fact they will even say, well you know the Bible doesn't address these issues. There is a verse that is often quoted. 1 Corinthians 2 9-10, Eye has not seen nor has ear heard nor has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those that love him.

Oh you know we don't know these things. You know even Paul himself said he was caught up into the third heaven and what he heard was unspeakable, indescribable. So some will say we can't know about heaven but that is not really true is it? It isn't because that very passage that you quoted many people have quoted that passage to me because this is a great thing about memory verses but it is sort of a downside is that memory verses are actually preceded by and followed by other verses that we don't memorize. So you have in 1 Corinthians 2 9, No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. That is used as a basis for so you can't know anything about heaven.

Right, except it doesn't end there. It is actually the same sentence but it is in the next verse, verse 10. But God has revealed it to us by his spirit revealed in the word of God. So the things that we never could have imagined on our own we never could have known what was coming. But God has revealed them to us. So Deuteronomy 29 29 the secret things belong to the Lord our God but it doesn't stop there. But the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever. In other words what God has told us, there are many things he hasn't told us about heaven.

Okay so we don't have to know those but what he has told us is powerful. Let us study and contemplate and know and look forward to what he has told us about heaven. I was reading last night in 2 Peter 3 where three times in a sequence of three or four verses it says we are looking forward to a new heavens and a new earth. And since we are looking forward to it what kind of people ought we to be in terms of life and godliness. And we are looking forward to these things. And then I start thinking there is just a lot of Christians who are not looking forward to heaven.

They are thinking of the loss. Oh I just enjoy the beauty of this world and we won't be able to experience that anymore. Oh no we will experience a far better version of this. It will be a redeemed world.

Yeah. Because earth is not a copy of heaven. It is a copy of heaven. What I meant to say is heaven is not a copy of earth. Earth is effectively a copy of heaven. In Hebrews 8 5 it says that they serve in a place of worship that is only a copy or a shadow of the real one in heaven. We often reason about it the wrong way. We think well earth is great.

I don't know what heaven is going to be like. But it is really the other way around isn't it? Yes. And think of how God has made us. Did Satan give us a sense of humor? Did Satan make us to like food? Did Satan give us taste buds? Did Satan make us to enjoy relationships with each other? No. That is all God. Yes. God says it is not good for the man to be alone.

I am going to make a hell pursuitable for him. God created human relationships, human community and God made us desire to do things with our bodies. How many of you have watched some of the Olympics? It is kind of hard to miss right? It is just like you saw a lot of commercials I know but there were other things too. There were actually athletic events.

And they were great. And you look at it and you go why does that inspire us? Because Satan put that desire in us? No. Can sports be abused? Of course.

Can you over. I don't know. Yes.

Satan may have invented that thing where they push those little things that float around in the ice. Yes. That is an Olympic event. Yes. Will we do curling in heaven? I don't think so. No. But other athletic events yes.

Or true athletic events yes. And this is what you think. You know you look at this and sorry no offense if you are like a Norwegian curler or something like that. There are three right back there. There are three back there. I see the outfits. I see the outfits.

Yes. But anyway but the point is God made us to love these things. So like somebody will say I had somebody say to me one time there is no possible way that on the new earth for instance that we could participate in sports. And I said why? Why would you say that? He said because competition brings out sinfulness.

I said well look I coach tennis. I know competition can bring out sinfulness. It also can bring out great character and can build character in the young men that I work with.

Been able to lead you know teenage boys to Christ and disciple them and mentor them. I have seen the best come out in them as well as the worst. Well that is even in this fallen world. But what about the world to come that is unfallen? God made these bodies and he promises us resurrection bodies. And when he says we are going to have new bodies that is not a non-body. When it says there is going to be a new earth that is not a non-earth. Earth is the operative term. Body is the operative term.

A real body. You know if I said I am going to give you a new car Greg which I am not going to do. But if I said that I would be lying. But let's suppose that you wouldn't say oh Raines is going to give me a new car. I will bet it doesn't have a windshield, transmission, wheels, tires. It doesn't have this. It doesn't have that.

No. Because if it didn't have those things it wouldn't be a car. When God promises a new body it will be what a body is. Except it will be incorruptible we are told.

It won't be subject to disease. But we will eat and drink at feasts together with the Lord and they will come from the east and the west eating and drinking I can tell. Harvest people like eating and drinking. So do I. That is the only thing we have applauded to so far. I know.

I think the Swedes started it. It is true but those are things we do and the Bible does say that we will have this feast and we will be reunited with our loved ones. You know sometimes when you have someone that goes to be with the Lord you long to communicate with them. You miss them deeply. And sometimes you wonder well I want to go to heaven to see the loved one. Should I instead be longing to be with Jesus?

Is this taking the place of Jesus? You know address that. Is there a balance there? How should we look at that? Well I think there is a balance.

But I have seen some people go way overboard one direction or the other. Some people it seems like all that they are talking about all the time is all the great things there will be about heaven. But they are not really talking about the Lord. There is actually a very popular book. How many of you have read the Mitch album book, the five people you meet in heaven? Do some of you have read that? Well you shouldn't have. Any of you that raised your hand.

No I am kidding. But really the strange thing about that book. I am reading this book because it is at the top of the New York Times bestsellers list and it was very popular when I was writing my book heaven.

And I am reading it and I go the five people you meet in heaven and you know what is striking in that book? Not one of the people is God. God isn't in that book. I mean he is virtually nowhere present. So heaven, God is the source of all joy.

He is the fountain head of joy. So if you are not thinking about God when you are thinking about heaven and if you are just thinking about oh it will be great to see somebody that I used to know or even a loved one. If that is all you are thinking you are really missing the greatest thing that heaven has to offer which is God. But then I have heard people take it the opposite extreme which is just what you are saying there with the question Greg and that is saying oh you shouldn't think about being reunited with a loved one because after all all you should care about is being with God. Well that actually contradicts Scripture because 1 Thessalonians 4 says specifically verse 13 brothers we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep and that is not soul sleep. That is a euphemism for death because on the outside it appears that the person who dies it is as if they have fallen asleep but their spirit goes to be immediately with the Lord and will be until the resurrection. About those who fall asleep or to grieve like the rest of men who have no hope. Now notice it does not say Christians do not grieve. It says we don't grieve in the same way that the rest of men who have no hope. We grieve with a hope and anticipation of reunion with a loved one who knows Jesus. So now he goes on to explain why we shouldn't grieve as those who have no hope because we are not being permanently separated from those we love. It is an interruption of relationship.

It is not a termination of relationship. So he says we believe that Jesus died and rose again so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. Then it goes on to say that those who are still alive that we won't perceive those who have fallen asleep in the resurrection. In other words he is promising will be reunited. Verse 16, for the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command with the voice of the archangel with the trumpet call of God and the dead in Christ will rise first.

That is those we have been temporarily separated from. After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. In other words you will be together with the loved one you have lost and that is why you don't grieve as those who have no hope of reunion. You will be with them and then so we will be with the Lord forever.

Perfect balance. We look forward to being with the Lord and we look forward to being with the loved ones. And remember our loved ones are a gift from God. To love your loved one is to do what God made you to do and they are his gift to you.

So I would know, God no more resents our wanting to be with the loved ones who have gone on before us as you would resent your grandchild or your child enjoying a Christmas gift you give them. You want them to enjoy the gift. You don't say you shouldn't enjoy that gift. You should only enjoy me.

No. You are enjoying me by enjoying the gift that I gave you. Well put. That is great. Let's talk about these new bodies now that God has for us. You are talking about the creation groaning. Every time I drop something on the ground and have to pick it up I understand that I groan.

And when I am down there picking it up I think to myself what else can I do while I am already down here. Be a steward of your time. Be a good steward of your time. Now these new bodies that we are going to receive from the Lord they are still us. We are still us. But we are in a glorified state. Heaven is the earthly life of the believer.

Glorified and perfected. We don't lose memory of what happened here. We know more. So let's talk a little bit about those new bodies. And I know that you have used the Scripture cites Christ himself as the prototype if you will. We know that we look at his resurrected body. When Christ through us our life shall appear we shall appear with him in glory.

We shall be like him. So let's talk about this new body. How is it different from us the body on earth? How is it the same?

Great question. The Bible says that Jesus is the first fruits from the grave. And as you quoted Greg we will be like him for we will see him as he is. So what was his resurrection body like? Do you know what our resurrection bodies will be like? We are told we will be like him. And he is the first fruits from the grave and the first fruits represent what is to come in the case of the other fruit.

And that is us. We are going to have bodies like Christ. So here it is in Luke 24 verse 37. They were startled and they were frightened when they saw Jesus at first because they are thinking they saw a ghost.

They are going this man died. And this is a ghost. Why are you troubled and why do doubts arise in your minds? Verse 39 of Luke 24. Look at my hands and my feet Jesus says.

It is I myself. Touch me and see a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. And when he said this he showed them his hands and his feet.

And he says do you have anything to eat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and he took it and he ate it in their presence. He went to great lengths to demonstrate to us that the resurrection body is a real actual physical body. And so that we don't take figurative those passages or shouldn't rather when it talks about eating and drinking at tables.

And I have had people. I had a man in my church when I preached a message on this years ago and talked about the feast and coming from the east and west. He came up to me. Old saint of God loved good doctrine and he said you are not actually saying that we will have real bodies and that we will eat and drink. And I said that is what the Bible says and he says it just sounds so unspiritual.

I said well why does it sound unspiritual? God is the one who made the body. And I thought here is a great saint of God who would die before he would deny the doctrine of the resurrection but he doesn't actually believe it.

But I mean the resurrection. Look at in Job 19. Job says I mean here is the oldest book in the Bible. Job 19 verse 25. Job in the midst of his suffering that he is undergoing he cries out. He says oh that my words were recorded they are written on a scroll that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead or engraved in rock forever. The person going through suffering feels like oh I wish my words would last. Well Job we are reading your words.

They have lasted. I know verse 25 Job 19. I know that my redeemer lives and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. Not just that he will be out in heaven somewhere. He will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed yet in my flesh I will see God. Some people say well you can't find the resurrection in the Old Testament.

Well that is what it is. Yet in my flesh I will see God. I myself will see him with my own eyes. I and not another. It will really be me.

It will really be us. We will have memory. When we stand before the judgment seat of Christ we are told we are going to give an account for everything we have done in the body. So when people talk about oh we won't remember anything in heaven on the contrary we will remember more. Because I can't remember everything now.

But if I am going to give an account for my life I have to remember it. Yes. So heaven and earth. Right now we coexist at the same time. There is a physical realm. There is a spiritual realm. Right now in heaven here is a person they write.

Her name is Becky. My husband passed away a few years ago and sometimes people will tell my children or me he is looking down on us from heaven. While it is encouraging to think he sees us this seems contradictory to Scripture.

Could you shed light on this? Are people who have gone on before us believers in the Lord looking down on us right now or looking down on us at any time? What do people in heaven know about what is happening here on earth? A good passage to turn to for that is Revelation chapter 6 where you have the martyrs in heaven. They have died. They have gone home to be with the Lord. They are with Jesus in the present heaven. You look in Revelation chapter 6 verse 9. I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Now here is what they do. This is what life is like for them in the present heaven. They called out in a loud voice how long sovereign Lord holy and true until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood. Well first of all clearly they remember their life on earth. And some people say well if we could remember anything of our life on earth in heaven surely we could not remember the bad things.

How much worse does it get than having been murdered? And they remember that they were murdered. But see the key to heaven is not ignorance. It is perspective on their lives. So they remember their lives on earth. They remember the bad things actually that even happened to them but now they see them through redemptive eyes. And they are also aware that God has not yet brought judgment upon their persecutors. They are not asking Lord have you brought judgment.

They are saying when will you bring judgment? So they know that he hasn't yet. How do they know that? Because they are seen at least to a degree at least.

They are aware of what is going on down on earth. And then they are told that they had to wait a little longer. Remember they are saying how long oh Lord.

Wait a little longer. People say well is there time in heaven. Very clearly there is here. And then he says when the last martyr dies that is basically when he is going to return. But you look at Luke chapter 15 where Jesus says there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels when a sinner repents. It doesn't say the angels rejoice. It could easily say the angels rejoice.

It doesn't say that. I am sure they do rejoice. But it is saying there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels when a sinner on earth rejoices. I mean repents. So how do they know that the sinner on earth has repented?

They have to know about it in order to rejoice. Who are those people in the presence of the angels? I think it is the people of God. It is the part of the body of Christ that has already gone home. They may be prayed for years for that person. They see that that person repented. But there is rejoicing in the very presence of the angels where the people of God are when someone down on earth repents. So people in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth as you have pointed out. One verse that is often quoted is you know we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Let's run the race with endurance that is set before us. And some would interpret that as saying well these are the people that have just gone before us and to sort of set the example which is true of course.

Hebrews 11 precedes Hebrews 12 and that is the hall of faith of all the great heroes of the Bible. But then again surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses some wonder is that you know I don't know if it is heavenly grandstands but certainly some form of viewing or watching from a heavenly perspective. You know seeing it from that view.

I think so. I think you could compare and I do this in the heaven book. It is like center court at Wimbledon so you have got this great tennis match that is going on and then the people in the grandstands are watching it. Well some of the people in the grandstands are people who they always kind of focus in on former champions and all of that.

It is like people who have gone before who are now watching those who are participating. And I agree that in Hebrews 11 now you can't really prove the cloud of witnesses is exactly that they are all watching. But when you put it together with these other passages it makes perfect sense. The focus of heaven is on the unfolding drama of redemption that is happening on planet earth. And so Christ is going to return and does it make sense to think that the people up in heaven are kind of like oh they are just oblivious to what is going on down on earth to which they are going to return with Christ.

Like it says in Thessalonians in other passages and they are going to return with him and his plan for the redemption of planet earth will be culminated. Do they care? Are they interested in what is going on down on earth from the perspective of heaven?

I think the answer is yes. I think they are cheering us on. And I don't think by the way that we should ever, there is no biblical basis in fact it is contradicted scripturally that we should ever pray to the saints. We do not pray to the saints.

There is one meteor between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy tells us. But it is maybe a different question of whether the saints are praying for us. I mean they are there because even in this passage in Revelation 6 they are saying how long before you bring judgment. They are almost praying for judgment to come down on these sinners.

But meanwhile if they are seeing the righteous people of God are they upholding them in prayer? Well prayer is talking to God. Will we talk to God less once we go to heaven than we do when we are here?

I think we will talk to him more. So when we are in heaven how are we related one to another? Right now you are a father. You are a husband. You are a son.

You are a grandfather. Will we be married still in heaven? Because the verse that is often cited in Matthew 22. Jesus said the resurrection will neither marry nor are given in marriage.

They are like the angels of God in heaven. So are we married in heaven? Are we still husbands, sons, daughters, mothers, etc.

How does that all work? This one passage Jesus defined this related to marriage. There will be no more human marriage exactly as we know it. And in that one specific respect we will be like the angels who aren't given in marriage.

But it is not an overall thing like we will be like the angels in other respects or most respects. But what I think is so significant about this is my wife Nancy is my best friend. She is here today but she likes to be in the back and not be publicly acknowledged so I will not point out where she is but she is in here somewhere.

And if you find her she is adorable. Anyway, so I love Nancy but what I have had people say to me, well you know I got a great marriage here on earth and it really bothers me that we won't be married in heaven. Well here is the way I look at it. Nancy and I will be part of the same marriage in heaven because the Bible doesn't say there will be no marriage in heaven. It says there will be one marriage in heaven. Christ to his bride, the church. We are part of the church so we together will be part of the bride of Christ. And so I will be part of a marriage with Nancy to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is the most important person in both of our lives and we are second in both of our lives. And what a great thing that will be to be together in marriage to him. And let's be honest there are other people who unfortunately have gone through very difficult marriage experiences on earth or have not been married on earth at all. And they have something to look forward to which is a perfect marriage relationship with a bridegroom Jesus Christ who will never let us down.

That's right. I have a good quote here. Amen. Here is a good quote Randy. Earthly marriage is a shadow, an echo of the true and ultimate marriage.

The purpose of marriage is not to replace heaven but to prepare us for it. You agree with that? I do.

Absolutely. You wrote it. It is from your book.

I thought it sounded familiar. That would have been great if you said that is wrong. That is stupid.

Who is the idiot who wrote that? And another quote from your book. God's plan doesn't stop in heaven and the new earth it continues. God doesn't abandon His purpose as He fulfills them. Friendships and relationships begun on earth will continue in heaven richer than ever. Now maybe because we are running out of time some quick answers because we do hear this. Will our pets be in heaven? Now let's just establish one thing. No cats in heaven in my opinion. No I am kidding.

But really though some might laugh that off. Oh pets in heaven. People get very attached to their pets. And is there a possibility your pet could be in heaven? Well you know I have got two chapters in the Big Heaven book. One on animals and it relates to Romans 8, Isaiah 60, a passage that refers to a number of animals and definitely refers to the new earth because it is cited twice. Isaiah 60 in Revelation 21 and 22 an application of the new earth that it is part of God's whole creation. So because the whole creation groans with a longing for deliverance and it is not just human beings it emphasizes the whole creation is currently suffering. Well who else besides human beings suffers?

Animals. And the whole creation is looking forward to a deliverance. It sounds like some beings besides humans who are now suffering will experience the relief of that suffering and will be part of life on a new earth. And again that conforms to Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 47 and a few other Old Testament passages as well. Then the question becomes could some of those animals that God restores as part of a new creation could they be pets?

Well my question would be why not? If there is going to be some animals why not animals that God entrusted to the stewardship and care of his people? And by the way if you want to read a fascinating passage of this sometime I reread it the other day. Genesis chapter 9 where God makes his covenant with Noah he repeatedly I believe it six or seven times says I make this covenant with you and with all the living creatures that walk the ground and swim in the seas. You go why does he repeatedly keep saying that he is making a covenant with animals? Well because he views animals as the second most important entities on this planet. Human beings are first.

Animals are second. And for whatever reason he actually has a plan for them and I think that is another passage that would indicate God has a future purpose for animals. You know the Bible says that we will rule over certain things in the new earth and probably because I have mocked cats so many times I will rule over a lot of cats or something. If there were a purgatory it might be you with the cats.

You know I am not sure. Someone listening to this right now is hurting. They are living with a disability. Someone close to them died recently.

They found out. They are terminally ill. It seems like the walls are closing in on them and they believe in the Bible. They believe in Jesus Christ but right now they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. They see an insurmountable obstacle. They see something that they don't think they can survive.

What would you say to that person right now? I would really say look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith who for the joy set before him endured the cross despising the shame is now seated at the right hand of God. And that in Hebrews 12 that I was just quoting from is preceded by the stories of great saints of God in Hebrews 11 but something they all had in common was how much they suffered. And there is a lot of suffering going on in this world and we have a God who cares.

It's not the God of what's called deism who was the watchmaker who started it all and then departed and doesn't really care what's going on. It's a God who looked down. He cries. He weeps for his people. We are told that in Exodus how he wept for his people. Jesus weeping over the people of Jerusalem and it's a God who came down to become one of us in the person of Jesus Christ who loved us so much that he extended out his arms.

His hands bear the mark of the greatest evil and suffering that has ever happened in human history. We call that day Good Friday. Why do we call it Good Friday? Why don't we call it Bad Friday?

Horrible Friday. Because God brought great good out of the worst thing that ever happened and he can do that for you too. And one day you'll be embraced by the Lord. You'll hear him say if you've been faithful to follow him and by his grace at work in your life well done my good and faithful servant. Enter into your master's joy and when that day comes we all will know it was worth it. God you accomplished things that I didn't even know about and I look forward now to finding out now that I'm with you and I'm sure that God's gonna explain a lot of things to us that we don't understand now. But God thank you that you were faithful to me even in the dark times and the joy I will experience of your unfolding riches of grace for all eternity. I know it will prove worth it.

Think those thoughts. There was a beginning that was perfect. There is an end without end that will go on forever that will be perfect.

We live in the difficult middle. Put it in perspective by the past and the future that is built on the finished work of Christ. What if somebody is here and most people are at least bodily but they they don't know if they're gonna go to heaven. They think well I've lived a good life and I've tried to you know do good things for other people and I think you know the good Lord on that day when that day comes will let me into heaven but we can know we're going to heaven. So how can you know? How do I know I'm going to heaven?

What do I need to do? Well scripture is very emphatic on this and of course a lot of you know this and Greg I think even you know this. Greg clearly knows this. But it's his life message but yeah but you know in 1 John 5 you know there is not a sense of uncertainty. He says this in 1 John 5 13. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

This is the confidence we have. It is the finished work of Jesus Christ. No work not by grace you've been saved through faith that not of yourselves it's a gift of God.

Not by works lest any man should boast. There's only one way we can get into heaven that's by the finished work of Christ. If we trust in our own works there as filthy rags they will do nothing.

Our destiny is hell if that's what we're trusting in. But God sent His Son so that we could place our faith and trust in Him. He guarantees through His finished work on our behalf eternal life. We can know that we have eternal life by trusting not in what we have done.

That's nothing to trust in. But in what He has done for us by His grace and to His eternal glory. Let's thank Randy for coming today and sharing those thoughts. Thank you Randy. God bless you. Hey everybody thanks for listening to this podcast. To learn more about Harvest Ministries follow this show and consider supporting it. Just go to harvest.org and to find out how to know God personally go to harvest.org and click on know God.