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In the final episode of our financial ethics series, we're tackling a message that promises health and wealth, but often leads to heartache, the prosperity gospel. Dr. David W. Jones joins us to unpack its dangers and point us back to a truly biblical view of blessing and provision. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.
That's 800-525-7,000. This is Faith in Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Well, we're honored to welcome back Dr. David W. Jones as we conclude our financial ethics series. He's a senior professor of Christian ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and co-author of Health, Wealth, and Happiness: How the Prosperity Gospel Overshadows the Gospel of Christ.
Well, that's especially fitting because today we're diving into that very topic. And, David, it's always a pleasure to have you here. Hi, Rob. It's good to be here. David, to start us off, you've written that the prosperity gospel redefines God's blessing primarily in material terms.
So let's begin at the foundation. How should Christians understand what it truly means to be blessed? You know, Rob, a couple of verses that come to my mind, one from the New Testament and maybe one from the Old. In Romans 4:8, Paul writes and says, Blessed is the man. To whom the Lord shall not impute sin.
And I mean, that in itself, that is true blessing, those of us who have been forgiven of our sins. In Jeremiah 17, 7 and 8, an Old Testament passage here, Jeremiah writes and says, Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord and whose hope is in the Lord. For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters, which spreads out its roots by the river and will not fear when heat comes, but its leaf will be green and will not be anxious in the year of drought, nor will it cease from yielding fruit. And these verses are so important because they define for us in biblical categories what true blessing actually is. And one of the things here I think that we'll talk about as we look at prosperity gospel is a foundational problem for the prosperity gospel is blessing is almost always defined within the prosperity gospel along material lines, which is not necessarily the biblical category.
Yeah, that's helpful. I know you also challenge in your book the notion that faith should guarantee prosperity.
So how does confusing faith with financial outcome distort the gospel's true promise? Yeah, what happens oftentimes within a prosperity type of theology is faith is viewed as like a force that is generated by believers that believers can then use in order to bring about blessings from God because of that faith that was manifested. Whereas I would want to say that faith actually, it's not a force that is self-generated. Faith is our trusting in God's revealed grace. Faith is a gift of God that he gives to us.
And so with those differing ideas of faith, I think the prosperity gospel, it's prone to define salvation almost as a quid pro quo transaction between man and God. But biblically defined, with biblical faith, I'd want to say that salvation is a grace transaction between God and man. Hmm, that's really helpful. In your book, you mentioned that prosperity theology often teaches a faith formula. If you believe strongly enough, God will reward you.
Explain the problems with this view and how it differs from a biblical understanding of faith. Hey, you know, Rob, it's interesting if you talk to a bunch of Christians and ask them to define faith, you'll get a lot of different answers. And I think, unfortunately, sometimes faith is defined as almost like sincere irrationality. And faith is almost viewed as if the more unbelievable something is, but yet someone still manages to believe in it, you know, the greater a person of faith that they are. Whereas I want to say, biblically speaking, as I said earlier, faith is trusting in God's revealed grace.
Faith is akin to the eyesight of the soul. And I would want to view faith as being incredibly rational and reasonable.
Now, it's not a math equation, but Hebrews 11.1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. And so we see there the rationality and the reasonableness of faith. Yeah. We're talking today about the prosperity gospel with Dr. Dr.
David W. Jones. He's a senior professor of Christian ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. More on this important topic just around the corner. Don't go anywhere.
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Their debt management program can help you pay off your debt 80% faster while honoring your commitments in full. Take the first step toward financial freedom today. Visit ChristianCreditCounselors.org or call 800-557-1985. Thanks for joining us today on Faith and Finance. Today, we're wrapping up our financial ethics series, dealing with some hard questions around money and our worldview coming from Scripture.
Today, the focus, the prosperity gospel. David W. Jones is with us. He's senior professor of Christian ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He's also the co-author of Health, Wealth, and Happiness: How the Prosperity Gospel Overshadows the Gospel of Christ.
And before the break, David was laying a foundation for faith and how it relates to our finances, how God rewards us. And we're going to continue to unpack this topic. David, the prosperity gospel doesn't just reshape what we expect from God, it also changes how we view suffering.
So, why is a biblical theology of suffering so crucial for following Jesus faithfully? Yeah, Rob, you know, I think a driving force behind the prosperity gospel is this desire to escape suffering. And of course, that's true not just among those who follow the prosperity gospel, but that's true in general, I think, among human beings. But I think it's important that we recognize that suffering is an inevitable part of being a human being in the fallen world. 1 Peter 4.12, Peter told the church, don't think it's strange concerning the fiery trial, which is to try you, as though something strange were happening to you.
And Peter implies that suffering is just going to be part of living in the fallen world. And even as Paul told the church in 2 Timothy 3, 12, that all who desire to live godly in Christ will suffer persecution. And so the idea is just that suffering is inevitable. And I think we could all look back on our lives. And I think most people would agree with the statement that suffering is the crucible of character.
It can be a very effective tool in the process of sanctification. And I know just looking back on my life, I could say the times when I've suffered the most have been the times when I've drawn closest to Christ and have been made the most like him. And so, well, we don't want to develop some type of unhealthy martyr complex. And unnecessarily seek suffering, we can recognize that suffering is part of living in the fallen world, and suffering is one of the tools that God uses to make us more like His Son. Yeah, there's no doubt about that.
You know, so much of this conversation, David, comes down to God's intended means of provision, which is really through work, not windfalls or get rich quick schemes.
So how does this vision that you talk about in your book uphold human dignity and align with Scripture's teaching on work being God's design? You know, Rob, a theme that we've brought up over this series on financial ethics, it's the idea that God's a creator who made us, he made human beings in his image in order to create, to work. As a matter of fact, that's the very first command that God ever gave to humanity was to go forth and to procreate, that is to create and, in a sense, to functionally bear God's image. And so God's design for us is that we would labor. And then as we labor and we create, so we flourish.
And it's important to not forget that God doesn't give us random commands in Scripture. But rather, what we see is that God actually created us to do that which He tells us to do. And so, if labor leading to productivity and flourishing and wealth sometimes, if that is the divine design, then we need to be careful about any type of theology or any type of activity that would create wealth apart from labor and apart from work. Because not only is that going to be a violation of how God has designed us, but it's also going to be profoundly unfulfilling to us because God actually made us to do, again, that which He told us to do. Yeah.
Well, that's such a big idea that really is at the core of this entire conversation. David, you also note that certain biblical promises, when removed from their historical and covenantal context, can be weaponized as financial guarantees.
So explain how that happens and why the contextual interpretation matters. Yeah, oftentimes, you know, those who would adopt a prosperity type of theology, they'll have certain proof texts, verses, and passages that they'll cite in order to support their ideas. And I could give you just a few examples. 2 Corinthians 8:9 comes to mind. And in that passage, Paul says, For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might become rich.
And if we just cite this verse in isolation, it might appear to be teaching that Christ came and died for us in order that we might become healthy, wealthy, and wise. But when you go and you look at the context of 2 Corinthians 8, 9, what we see is that in that passage, Paul isn't talking about a material increase. He's talking about our spiritual condition. That is, we were spiritually bankrupt, unable to make our way to God because of our depravity. And we needed God to come down and to solve our problem.
And so he who was rich came down and became poor that we might become spiritually rich in him. And that's a completely different interpretation than what we might find amongst those who talk about the prosperity gospel. And again, there are other passages as well that we could talk about, but there's going to be pretty much kind of the same theme where a verse is taken out of its context and it's bent towards. Supporting a particular goal and theology that folks like the prosperity gospel advocates might have. Sure.
The prosperity gospel often intersects with giving as well. And the message from the prosperity gospel is that we give in order to get. But clearly, scripture presents a much richer picture of generosity.
So, talk for a second about how biblical giving differs from what you might call seed faith teaching. Yeah, you know, it's so important, Rob, you know, as all of us, as we hopefully desire to give to our churches and other Christian organizations, it's so important that we ask ourselves that question of what is my motivation? Why am I actually giving? And what is driving this act of generosity that I'm engaging in? And I think oftentimes what we see is that those who engage in seed faith giving, which is tied to the prosperity gospel, their motivation for giving is really their own personal financial increase.
And so. Their giving is, you could say, oftentimes driven by greed and selfishness, which hopefully we would recognize as not laudable motivations. Whereas biblical giving ought to be motivated by grace. It ought to focus on love of God and love of neighbor. It ought to be driven by that idea that all that I'm stewarding is God's, anyways.
And because I love Him and because I recognize the practical needs of a ministry, and because I love neighbor and want to help those in my community or elsewhere that need help.
So, this is why I give. And so, again, it's that motivation. Is it greed, or is it grace, or is it guilt? Or what's driving my giving? And the goal is to be motivated by love of God and love of neighbor in all that we do.
David, just a few seconds left. Tie a bow on this. What's the one takeaway you would leave our audience with today? You know, I would hope that as followers of Christ, that we would seek totally to make our lives about him, about his glory, not about our increase, not about our own prosperity, but about flourishing and being made in the image of his son. Yes.
Excellent.
Well said. Thanks for your time, my friend. Thank you. That's David W. Jones.
He's the author of Health, Wealth, and Happiness: How the Prosperity Gospel Overshadows the Gospel of Christ. Your calls are next: 800-525-7000. If you love what you hear on this program, there's even more waiting for you at FaithFi.com. Explore podcasts, videos, articles, Bible studies, and devotionals, all designed to help you see God as your ultimate treasure and money as a tool to advance his kingdom. Pursue wisdom, practice generosity, and steward God's resources in a community with others who share your faith.
Visit FaithFi.com to take the next step in your faith and financial journey today. That's faithfi.com. We are grateful for support from Praxis Investment Management. Since 1994, Praxis has offered investment products designed to meet practical needs for everyday investors seeking to steward their assets consistent with their desire to promote positive social and environmental impacts. Praxis aims to bring a faith-based approach to ETFs, mutual funds, multi-fund portfolio solutions, and money market accounts, reflecting their 500-year-old Anabaptist Christian faith tradition.
More information is available at PraxisInvest.com. Thanks for joining us today on Faith and Finance. We're taking your calls and questions today on anything financial. The number to call is 800-525-7000. If you've got a financial question, we've got lines open for you.
Call right now, 800-525-7000 to Alabama. We go. Hi, Barry. Go ahead. Yes, sir.
Thank you for taking my call. I've got about ten thousand dollars that I would like to invest somewhere. I'm 64. My plan is to retire in about a year. I will not need this money for income or anything.
And just was wondering, what was some guidance on how. of the direction I should go with it. Yeah. So this is obviously because you're talking about investing in money that you would say is beyond your emergency fund. You don't need to tap this, and you're not even looking for income.
So you really just want to park it somewhere and let it grow, right? That's right. That's correct. Yeah. Very good.
How important, and I'm not leading you with this question. I think this is a conviction matter, but how important is it that the companies you're invested in are screened for biblical values? I mean, are you wanting to think about a faith-based investing solution? Or are you just more interested in kind of an indexed approach? Or what have you been considering?
Yeah, I'm I'm very interested in companies that are, you know, on board with biblical values. Yeah, got it.
So, most of the asset managers, there's about 15 of them, and we track them very closely as we lead here at Kingdom Advisors, the industry of Christian financial advice. We work directly with all the faith-based investing asset managers. It's really exciting what's happening in that space. I would say we're still very early. There's about $130 billion right now in faith-based investments, but that sounds like a lot.
The problem is, well, not problem, but the opportunity is there's $22 trillion in the hands of Christians in the public markets today.
So, we have a long way to go. But what's exciting is these asset managers, Barry, are not only developing world-class investments in a mutual fund form, but they're all creating exchange-traded funds as well, which are particularly helpful in a situation like yours where you're saying, listen, this is not $100,000 or $200,000 or $500,000. This is $10,000. And the ETF is going to make it much easier for you to get in. Into a really high-quality fund, or in this case, exchange-traded fund with a smaller amount of money, get good diversification, have the confidence that everything's going to be screened for your values, and you can still get it in the right types of investments.
Meaning, you may want this more oriented towards stocks, even though you're about hitting retirement. If this portion of your portfolio, you're saying, I just want this to grow and I'm willing to take a long-term approach.
So, even if we got into a recession later this year or next year and the market was down, I've got time on my side. I got to wait. I'm going to wait it out because you're thinking, even once you hit 65, you're still thinking three decades. Like, I need this to last well into my 90s. And so, that would be the direction I would go.
If you head to faithfi.com and click on the show, you'll see all of the asset managers we work with: Eventide, One Ascent, Praxis, Crossmark Global. And just about every one of them have an exchange traded fund, which would mean as you check them out, if you find one that you just really resonate with their story, you know, you could open an account at Fidelity or Schwab. Both are great, low-cost providers with great customer service, great apps and websites. And both of those would have all of the faith-based investing asset managers ETFs available on their platform.
Okay. All right.
So FaithFy.com. FaithFy.com. Click on the show, scroll down. You'll see among the other sponsors we have of the program, you'll see all the faith-based investing asset managers. When you click on them, it'll take you right into their website so you can start to do a little due diligence and you can take it from there.
Thank you very much. All right, Barry. Lord bless you, my friend. Thanks for calling today. 800-525-7,000 is the number to call.
If you have a financial question today, we've got lines open for you. We'd love to tackle your question again. 800-525-7,000. That makes me think of a couple of things. Number one is some really exciting developments happening in the faith-based investing space.
For instance, just last week, I had a meeting with an organization. I won't mention the name because it's still a little early. It's going to be out later this year, but they're building essentially a robo-advisor for the faith-based investing space.
Now, you might say, What are you talking about? Robots and investing? No.
So, a robo-advisor is essentially a turnkey solution where after you answer a few questions about your age and your risk tolerance and your goals and objectives, it essentially invests the money for you using a pretty sophisticated algorithm. But the robo-advisor, Robo advisors that are available today from Schwab Intelligent portfolios. That's one of the best known. Wealthfront, another one is called Betterment. You know, they're just using typically indexes like the SP 500 or the Russell 3000 or the Bond Index.
And you're not going to have any screening there for Christian values.
Well, this would be a RoboAdvisor that's a great entry-level investment solution that's turnkey and low cost. But every investment in it from this new platform that's being developed, it'll be out later this year. It'll be in Alpha next month, is going to be faith-based screened. Really exciting. Can't wait for that to come.
Let's finish in Florida today, Bob. You'll be our final caller. Go ahead, sir. Quick question. My wife and I are going to be retiring shortly, probably within about a year.
We have plenty of money. We're all set for retirement. Our home is paid for. The only thing I don't have is long term care insurance.
So my concern is I can always get a reverse mortgage on my home to take care of any of that. But I also heard a commercial on the radio where this one person likes An equity loan instead of a reverse mortgage, because then they can determine where the overage would go after the sale of the house. Instead of a reverse mortgage, where the overage might go back to the lender of the reverse mortgage. But that's not how a reverse mortgage works. I mean, the newer reverse mortgages, the ones you would get today, is called a heckum, a home equity conversion mortgage.
And 100% of the equity that's remaining in the home after the reverse mortgage is paid by you either passing away or selling the home is available to your estate. To be given away or passed on to heirs. The only thing is that whatever is taken out, whether it's through a home equity line of credit, a reverse mortgage line of credit, or through a monthly income stream, that obviously, because you're not making any payments and that's part and parcel to a reverse mortgage, that's going to be growing over time with interest and fees. But anything remaining after that full balance is paid is available to you through a reverse mortgage.
Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Hey, if you want to learn more, let's do this. Stay on the line.
Our team will get your information. I'm going to send you a book. It's called Understanding Reverse. I think it'll be real helpful to you and give you a lot of great information. Thanks for calling today, Bob.
Folks, I'm so thankful for you and the opportunity to be able to come alongside you each day and hopefully be an encouragement to you, point you back to God's word, and really point you toward God as your ultimate treasure. You know, the opportunity we have to manage God's money is a big deal. We'll ultimately give an account for it someday. And so we want to help you live as that wise and faithful steward. We'll gather together tomorrow to do it all over again.
In the meantime, big thanks to my team today, Taylor Standridge, Pat Montague, Devin Patrick, and all the team members here at Faith5. We'll see you tomorrow. Faith in Finance is provided by FaithFy and listeners like you.
