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For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? Matthew 16, 26. I am Rob West. In that verse, Jesus is speaking to his disciples, teaching them about the cost of discipleship and the value of the soul in contrast to worldly gains.
The question remains, is there a spiritual cost to achieving financial success? John Reinhardt joins us today to talk about it. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance: biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Well, our guest today is my friend John Reinhart. He's founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons, the organization that helps business leaders, entrepreneurs, and others marshal their finances and influence to support Christian ministries spreading the gospel around the world. John, great to have you here. Thanks so much, Rob. This is exciting.
John, you had a great article in our magazine, Faithful Steward. It was back in our very first issue, and I was so thrilled to be able to get this article in there because I think this idea is one that so many people haven't thought about and really need to. And it's titled Breaking the Cycle: How Financial Success Can Lead to Spiritual Failure.
Now, financial success can obviously be a very good thing, but let's talk about why it's also something we should be wary of. Yeah, actually, there's so many warnings in the Bible about wealth. And wealth can be a blessing, and God makes rich and God makes poor.
So he's sovereign over that. We see many wealthy people throughout the scriptures, both Old Testament and New. And yet, when we come to Jesus, we see that he warned his disciples very specifically and often constantly about the dangers of wealth. And it just seems like something we don't talk about very often: that we have a temptation to love, try to love God and money. And Jesus says, actually, that's impossible.
You can only have one master. But we live in a culture and we live in a world that idolizes wealth and success and money and possessions. And it's just something we need to be very careful about and have a watchful eye on. That's well said, John, and I couldn't agree more.
So let's move into this toxic cycle of success. We will, of course, share the productive side of this, the direction we should go, but let's talk about where this can go wrong. It starts with our view of work, really. Many of us are working, and our view of work is to trade time for money so that we can rest. We think of work as a means of exchange to get what I really want, which oftentimes is money, comfort, security, and rest.
That's not where the Bible starts. But what happens is if we hustle and strive and go after work in that fashion, we end up prospering because we work hard. Yeah. And then we find ourselves failing because we succeed and we forget God and we end up in a place that we never intended to be. Yeah, John.
And it can happen perhaps without us even realizing it. And so much of this really comes back to the me and the my that we see in the parable of the rich fool. You know, when we think it's all as a result of our hand and our work, we're not calibrated to the Father. And that tends to take us down the wrong track, doesn't it? Yeah, that's so good.
And the rich fool building bigger barns hits home for an American audience because that seems to be the goal. That's the American dream: we would make enough to be able to relax, eat, drink, be merry. And we don't see it coming that Jesus is going to turn the corner and say, you fool, tonight your life is required of you. That's our goal in our culture, and we need to be aware of that. John, you talk about we work hard and that's a good thing and we prosper and we know that production leads to prosperity.
That's part of God's design. That's a good thing. Rest can be a good thing. But then you talk about how that slips into forgetting. What is it that we forget?
Yeah, there's a very well-known passage in Deuteronomy 8 that says that when your wealth prospers, God is warning Israel before they enter the promised land. This is the land where it had been given to them with milk and honey. They'd been looking forward to it for decades. And yet Jesus says, I want to bless you, but when you get into that land and I bless you, be careful that when all things are prospering, you don't forget the Lord. And then he adds this, because it's the Lord who gives you the power to get wealth.
And I think right there is the key. We often think it's our power to get wealth. And then when the wealth and prosperity come, it's our wealth. And we know from scripture that everything belongs to God. And even here, he's saying it's the power to get wealth that comes from God as well.
That's exactly right. After 40 years of wandering the desert, standing across the Jordan River from the Promised Land, Moses addresses the nation of Israel, and it was prosperity that would be more challenging than anything. And of course, as John points out, that can lead to sin if we forget the God who created us.
Well, when we come back, we'll talk about the virtuous cycle, where we need to go. John Reinhardt with us today. We'll be right back. I was in ministry full time and I was always looking for a way to integrate my faith with this new industry around money and finances. This is Mark.
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Investing involves risks including possible loss of principal. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thanks for joining us today on Faith and Finance. I'm Rob West.
With me today, my friend John Reinhardt. He's founder of Gospel Patrons. You know, if you think about it, every movement of God that involves a gospel proclaimer has a gospel patron, someone funding the work behind that person, all the way back to Jesus and the three women that were a part of funding his ministry.
Well, John and his wife Renee have been chronicling those stories. It comes to life in the book, Gospel Patrons, but there's a whole ministry surrounding it, telling just amazing stories of gospel patrons. And we'll hear from John a little later in this segment about gospel patrons and how you can engage more. But, John, we're talking now about succeeding financially without failing spiritually. And before the break, you set up the cycle that can lead to spiritual failure when we work and we prosper and then we rest and withdraw, but we can forget.
Wealth can blind us from our need for God, and then that can lead to sin. I know you've written extensively on the parable of the sower, which really highlights this idea of, you know, money is a good gift from God, but when we worship the creation over the creator, it can lead to problems. And what that parable points out is that as Jesus explains, you know, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things and the cares of this world can choke out the word from bearing fruit, right? Yeah, it's startling that Jesus would say that. I wouldn't think there's anything that can choke out the word of God because it's the most powerful force in the universe.
And yet he does say, the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word so that it proves unfruitful. Man, I don't want that for my life or for anyone's life because I believe the word of God is meant to produce 30, 60, and 100 fold fruit through our lives. That's what we want. But we got to be careful about this cycle of success that leads to some of those things. Yeah, that's right.
So let's talk about where we should go. What is that better way, God's rhythm for life?
Well, instead of working for rest and working for wealth, I think the place to start is we actually start with rest, that God has instituted rest into our weekly rhythm. He calls it the Sabbath. It's in the top 10 commands from the Old Testament. That's mind-blowing that the God of the Bible would command rest. He doesn't want to treat us like slaves or servants.
He treats us like children who get a day off. And man, I know many, many business leaders, and I just think that's a really hard command for many of us to obey. We have always more work that could be done. But I believe this is actually where the cycle of health begins for us as business leaders and business owners and professional people. Man, we need to start with this place of we're not working for rest, we're working from rest, and that's where it begins.
From there, we know that when we rest, the Sabbath is a great chance to worship. It's a chance to go to church with your family. It's a chance to sing God's praises. It's a chance to be in God's Word, to hear God's Word, to reset for the week forward. And so.
What that does is it takes work out of the center place of our lives and our hearts. We're not constantly stirring on it and thinking about it and trying to solve Monday's problems on Saturday and on Sunday, but we actually lift our eyes beyond that to God who's sovereign, who loves us, who cares, who's with us in every trial, who can help us in every problem, and begins to reverse this inward spiral outward where we stop thinking so much about work and we're conscious of God. Then when we show up to work on Monday, we've got a totally different starting place than we did before. We're refreshed, we're filled up, we're ready to go, and we can bring the same sense of hard work that we would otherwise, but we're starting from a different place. And when we do that work out of the overflow of our time with God, our work actually becomes a sense of worship.
Instead of just trading time for money, it's an opportunity to use our skills and our gifts and our talents that God's given us to bless others, to serve others, to fulfill the good works He created us for. And so rest is really the starting place. When our work succeeds and we are blessed and God provides and we prosper, we understand that that prosperity came from God's hand. It wasn't just the result of our intelligence, hard work, effort, but God's hand was in it. Deuteronomy 8:18 says it's the Lord who gives you the power to get wealth.
And we understand that that wealth came from Him and that wealth ultimately belongs to Him. And so, therefore, we're not owners, we're stewards. And we understand that some of what God wants us to do with our wealth is to be wildly, radically stunning in our generosity and pass that along to bless his kingdom, to take care of the poor, to advance the gospel, to serve his kingdom purposes everywhere we find them. And that leads to an incredible amount of joy that we're not just working for ourselves, but the work that we do can actually contribute to things God is doing all over our city, our church, our community, and even to the ends of the earth. And that puts new purpose back in our work.
And we get really, really excited then to show up again to go, Lord, can I do more of that? Can I contribute more to what you're doing? My nine to five job or my 40 hours a week, does that actually have a place in advancing your kingdom? And that puts new motivation back in our work. Oh, so good.
We can break free from the toxic cycle of success that seems to be the default unless we protest to the contrary.
Now, John, you've walked alongside so many business leaders that actually got this right, that they were able to live out what you just described in that virtuous cycle of success that leads to rejoicing. What has been a key that you've observed in the life of those men and women that have pursued it this way? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, believe it or not, some of the wealthiest, most successful business leaders that I have had the privilege to interact with have a real deep commitment to their local church. That church for them is not an optional extra if they can fit it in against all of their other programs and work and schedule and travel and all of that.
But they're committed to try to be home to worship with their local community. I think it's a place where they can be known. It's a place where they can be fed. It's a healthy discipline in their lives. Even if their church isn't the best and they could listen to better preachers elsewhere, there's a commitment to show up and be a part of a local church.
And I think that shows humility. It shows teachability. I think there's another piece that's just there's a commitment to reading the Bible for themselves, that the Word of God isn't something you just touch for five minutes on a Sunday and then move on with the rest of your week, but there's a daily rhythm of learning to ingest God's word, soak in God's word, let God's word be the thing that shapes and forms our lives.
So, man, there's so many things, but those would be. the probably the top two. I love that.
Now, one of the things we can do is we can read stories of those that have really purposed their lives this way, and that's really gospel patrons. Here in the final 90 seconds that we have, just give us a thumbnail sketch of gospel patrons in the book that you wrote. Yeah, gospel patrons is behind every great movement of God. There's some who are going to go first in preaching, and there's many who are going to go first in giving. And gospel patrons are those leaders who are maybe not gifted to be on the stage or translating the Bible or crossing a culture to be a missionary, but God's gifted them to make money, to succeed in their career, and to give generously to advance God's kingdom.
And we tell those stories both from history, from scripture, even modern-day stories through gospelpatrons.org. Excellent. Those stories are there. They're beautifully captured. But the book is really the foundation of all of this.
It chronicles how this all started and how God set John and Renee out on this course. You can buy it wherever you buy books. John, what would you leave our audience with today? Yeah, I would say that you have a part to play, that you're not second class in God's kingdom, that what you do every day can matter for eternity when we connect what we're doing to God's kingdom, when we live generously. We are actually the most joyful people on the planet.
Wow.
Well, John, I don't say this lightly. I think you are one of the most important voices today in this space of biblical stewardship. And I'm so thankful for your friendship, and I really appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much, Rob. That's huge.
That's John Reinhard. He's founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons. Folks, pick up a copy of this book, Gospel Patrons, wherever you buy books, or head to gospelpatrons.org to learn more. That's gospelpatrons.org. Back with your questions after this: 800-525-7000, 800-525-7000.
I'm Rob West, and you're listening to Faith and Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions. Imagine having biblical financial wisdom delivered to your inbox every week, helping you integrate your faith and financial decisions for the glory of God. At FaithFi.com, you can join a community of over 70,000 people who are already receiving our weekly wisdom email, filled with articles, videos, podcasts, and exclusive offers on resources that will deepen your understanding of biblical stewardship. Start your journey today by creating your FaithFi account at faithfi.com. Just click sign up.
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So glad you joined us today for Faith and Finance. We are going to be taking your calls and questions. We want to know what's on your mind today as we tackle your specific financial issues in light of biblical wisdom.
So call right now if you've got a question. That number is 800-525-7000. We've got lines open for you. The number again, 800-525-7000. All right, let's head to the phones.
Joseph, give me your question there in Georgia. Go ahead. Hey, thank you, Rob.
So I've just recently retired. I'm sixty eight years old and the way I set up is I do have a house that I have for sale right now, but also have a large uh you know cash uh position. that I'm doing money market with, but I'm looking at my 401k. And I'm looking at how what's the best way to start to get distributions from that. I know in a couple of years, I'll have mandatory distributions, but I just thought How do I take it out without incurring the higher tax penalties and that that type of thing?
Yeah, it's a great question.
So, how much are you going to need to rely on in that 401 to supplement other income sources? I really don't. Uh I really don't, but I've I was thinking that, you know, what I was looking at is like if I wanted to take a big jag of money out, you know, then all of a sudden it's going to bump me up to the higher tax bracket and it's going to eat into the profit, you know, o of that particular uh retirement account. Yeah, it's a great question to ask, Joseph, because sequence matters. A common order it's just a a guide, not a rule, would be that you would take cash and taxable assets first.
And then you'd take partial 401k withdrawals, or better yet, Roth conversions. while your income's low, Because a lot of times people have delayed Social Security, so you don't yet have your Social Security. We didn't talk about whether you do or not. But if your income is stopped because you're no longer working, you're not taking Social Security, or even if you are, you still don't have those required minimums yet, it's often an ideal time to begin converting some money to Roth up to a target tax bracket. And you could work with your CPA to say, okay, how much could I convert in this given year so everything stays in a lower bracket?
And then, you know, delay Social Security if appropriate, and then reduce. Future RMDs when they become mandatory because you've systematically moved money over to the Roth.
Now, at that point, you could roll to an IRA if you haven't already and use a qualified charitable distribution as another way to get money out and satisfy your RMD without ever paying any tax on it. And maybe you replace money you were giving away out of cash and instead do it out of your IRA. And again, that's a way to get it out without it being taxable. But give me your thoughts on that. You know, that's perfect.
I mean, what a great group of ideas right there to work with. Yes, um some for sure. I mean So I can give I can I can do contributions out of my four one K, but at the same time work on that conversion. And I started that earlier, but I don't have a great deal over on the IRA side. But I it sounds like that's really a plan.
Yeah, and I think the key would be to figure out: yeah, where are those thresholds for those various tax brackets?
Now, keep in mind, because it's a graduated tax system, you know, when you trip over into the next bracket, it's not like everything jumps up. I mean, you pay up to the first bracket, and then the next portion, you pay the next bracket, and then the next portion, and so on.
So, you don't have to worry about kind of everything going up into that higher bracket. But it would behoove you to do some planning to say, how much could I convert this year to stay in that lower bracket and just get as much moved over between now and age 73 to the Roth as you can? Just to clarify, and I think you understand this, but just to be sure, with the qualified charitable distribution, it is going to need to be in an IRA, not a 401k, and you will need to be at least 70 and a half.
So, you're still a couple of years away from being able to do that. But when that time comes between 70 and a half and 73, you know, what a great opportunity to do some giving. And then, eventually, once you have RMDs, You can satisfy those RMDs with contributions directly to a charity from your IRA and even replace that cash out of taxable accounts. Joseph, all the best to you. Hey, stay on the line.
I'm going to send you a book that I think will be an encouragement to you. It's called An Uncommon Guide to Retirement. It'll give you just a biblical perspective how to think of this next season of life, okay? Thank you so much, Rob. God bless.
All right. You too. Hang on the line. To Virginia. Hi, Ann.
How can I help? I'm going to try to explain this. My husband and I are retired, and he we're in the process of moving monies from a Roth into or from a IRA into a Roth. And so our CPA has explained that we can put some monies into a charitable gift account to help offset some of the tax that'll be paid. Then they suggest that we can use charitable gift monies to pay our regular tithes.
And something inside of me seems Gray about that. I feel like we've received a benefit from putting those monies into a charitable gift account. and that tithing needs to be off of new monies. Just wanted to know your thoughts. If I'm explaining it correctly.
No, I appreciate that.
So you've got, if I understand correctly, the money is in the IRA right now, correct? Correct.
Okay, how much do you have in there? It's quite a bit.
Okay. And we're doing it in chunks, different years.
Okay. And you're then going to move it to a Roth, or did you say a charitable gift annuity? Or what is it going into for? Yeah, the money we're in the process of trying to get the IRA into a Roth, all those monies into a Roth, just to, since we're retired, taking care of that tax. you know, amount.
And some of the money's putting, I'm not real sure, I'm the one on the outside listening to them talk. But they're suggesting that we put these monies into a charitable gift, not the Roth not the Roth or other finances or other monies from somewhere else. And they say, well, if we put these monies in charitable gifts, then you can use those to pay your tithe every month or week or whenever we do that. And I just look at them and I it just seems like a gray area to me. I feel like we receive a benefit tax benefit or we receive something by putting monies from our finances into charitable gifts, I feel like the charitable gift monies need to go just other charitable things versus I feel like the tithe needs to come off of new income.
Got it. Yeah, you know, here's the reality, and I don't understand all the pieces that are moving here, and I want to make sure they're considering what's called a qualified charitable distribution. Because if you guys are at least 70 and a half, you can take money out of the IRA and go straight to your church or your charity of choice or ministry and never pay any tax on it.
So it doesn't need to be converted to a Roth. But here's the way I look at, I think, the heart of your question was you and your husband before the Lord decide how much you want to give. And then where you pull those assets from and whether or not you're doing in a tax-advantaged way, I think is just good stewardship.
So I wouldn't divide up the buckets. I would just decide how much do we want to give based on the increase we have, the new income, the assets we have. And let's decide on an annual basis. And then, as the Lord leads, we can change that, how much we want to give, and then decide from a planning standpoint: okay, how do we wanna do it? And how do we do it in a way that's tax-advantaged?
That's the way I would approach it, but also ask your advisor about a qualified charitable distribution. Fortunately, I'm out of time, man. Thanks for your call today. Big thanks to my team today: Sandy, Devin, and Jim. God bless you.
We'll see you next time. Faith in Finance is provided by FaithFi and listeners like you.
