You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm John Galantis, and I'm very happy to be here on this stormy Thursday evening with our host, Dr. Abaddon Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr.
Shah, as many episodes as we've done, I don't think we've ever done one with like actual thought. I can't tell if it's coming through the mics or not. Yeah, I hope not, but if it is, It's part of what the whole nation is facing right now with a lot of thunderstorms and rain. And unfortunately, some parts of our country have really faced a lot of heartache because of floods. And so we're praying for you.
We're praying for people in Texas, of course. And not just Texas, but all the way up in New Jersey, New Mexico, several other states. Where our broadcast goes, so just know our hearts are with you. That's right. We're praying that God will not only protect you, but whatever you're facing, that God will work all things together for good because that's what Romans 8:28 is about.
That's right, that's exactly right. And that's what we've been talking about. Uh, it's kind of funny. Did your parents, I don't know if you guys like so, storms in India. I know you guys had really bad like tsunami seasons and stuff, but like, were thunderstorms every now and then just like a common thing?
Oh, yeah, they were we had a monsoon, that's what I meant. That's what I meant, and so monsoon was a time where a lot of rain, a lot of storms would come through, but overall. It was not as much like hardcore thunder and lightning as much as it was kind of. You know, real bad wind? Just rain.
Just torrential rain. Did your parents or. Grandparents or like older people in your life ever act weird in a thunderstorm. What I mean by that is this. My my mom, she would make us like unplug everything.
That's that was normal. But my grandparents, if we were at their house during a storm, they would make us cut off all the lights, sit down on the couch and not move and be quiet. I've heard people here doing that. I don't remember that growing up. That was not the case.
It was probably, I think, I think Katie, who's engineering the show today, said her parents were like that too, or her grandparents. No, well, it was definitely mine. But my grandparents were definitely like when the storm comes, it's like everybody. I think it was Nicole. I think it was Nicole or someone told me that you have to shut the lights off, sit down, and you can't talk.
No, you got to be quiet. I think it's probably because already your nerves are afraid because of all the thunder and lightning and everything. And then over that, having kids run around, act crazy. I mean, that may be true. That may be what brings about more anxiety and frustration.
So it may be like, hey, y'all sit quiet. Let's handle this.
So it may not be causing. And they try to put a spiritual bent on it too. They're like, this is the Lord speaking now.
So we're going to sit and we're going to listen to him speak. And I remember sitting and listening and be like, what is he saying, me, Ma? Can you hear what he's saying? She's like, if the Lord is speaking, we're going to listen. I'm not going to tell you what he's saying.
He said, we're going to listen. All right. Romans 8:17. It says, and if children, meaning if we're children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we. indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together.
We definitely did an episode on like suffering with Christ a few weeks back where it was like, okay, I'm heirs with Christ. I'm going to be glorified with him. I'm all good with that. But it's like, no, you're also going to be heirs in his suffering as well. That's right.
That's very important for us as Christians to understand that life is full of suffering. But for a Christian, suffering is God's way of sanctifying us. And so Romans is teaching us what To do in those times of suffering. That's what Paul did. And so if you go back to Romans 8:17.
If we are heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ means if you are connected to Christ, then you will suffer with him so that you may be glorified together. That's right. And then it says here in verse 18, Romans 8:18, as we go through suffering, and again, I'm kind of paraphrasing here, we are to remember that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Right. Suffering.
And then glory. Suffering first, and then comes glory. And to endure suffering. God has sent His Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, to be with us and help us in our weaknesses. Because suffering is a time when our weaknesses are brought to the surface, or we come face to face with those things in our lives that do not match With the image of Jesus Christ.
That's right. And a lot of times, if you read Romans, or if you even if you just listen to this show, it may come across like we're just moving from doctrine to doctrine to doctrine to doctrine. But once we got to suffering, suffering really sort of undergirds all the doctrines that we're talking about. Even to the point where when we talked yesterday about this golden chain of assurance, you know, we think it's the golden chain of salvation, but really all of it is the assurance in the face of suffering. That's correct.
And it's not, and maybe you can kind of speak more to this, but it's not just descriptive. It's. Assurance in the face of suffering, really, that's the key to what Paul's trying to say. Right. So, the Holy Spirit is there with us in suffering, and his role in our lives is to intercede for us.
Of course, Jesus, as the second person of the Godhead, is interceding for us, but the third person, the Holy Spirit, also intercedes for us, but he does it differently. He Groans He intercedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Which means you don't even hear him praying, but he is groaning for us. And this is not groaning as in, like, just groaning. You know, by himself to God, he's taking our size, our size.
Those deep sighs that we give out in the face of. Sickness? Yes. Or Emotional struggles, oh my goodness, or spiritual hurdles, taking all of them into the presence of God. Yeah, and He prays for us according to the will of God.
That's right. Have you ever heard someone say that the groanings which cannot be uttered really a justification for speaking in tongues? I have. And and on many levels, it doesn't add up because It's not you who's groaning, it's the Holy Spirit. Yeah.
And he is groaning with. Kind of like a wordless groaning. Right. So if you're making sound, then sort of it falls apart on the very first level, which is as soon as you utter it. That's not obviously not what you're talking about.
And it's not you, it's the Holy Spirit. That's right. So He is praying for us, and then we have, as a result, we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Now let's pause here. for a moment. Why Is Paul even talking about all this? Why is he going into suffering? And this is very important because if we don't get this straight, then we will just.
build upon one Topic and then another topic and another topic, and that's where we get into a lot of speculations. You think that's why people misread Romans so much? I think so. Yeah. Because they have forgotten the original context.
What is the original context? Paul was writing to a church that was divided between Jewish background and Gentile background believers. You see that very clearly in Romans chapter 13 and chapter 14. The weak brothers, the strong brothers, they really Jewish background, Gentile background, people. And their point of contention was the law.
Right. Is the law still applicable in the believer's life? We did a big, big stretch of episodes about the law here a few months back. And so Paul is writing to bring them together. And so he talks about God's plan of salvation in history.
He's talking about what he's done with the Gentiles, how he is working with the Jewish people, and now how Christ. Has come both for the Jewish people and for the Gentiles through. the Jewish people, but for the whole world. And then how does that salvation work Work in a person's life that we died with Christ, buried with Him, risen with Him, all these things. How the flesh still battles against us, how the enemy is still against us, how the world is against us, you know, how master sin comes to enslave us.
Whether you're Jewish or Gentile, we all face it. Right. So he's trying to bring them together on the basis of our salvation. But then there is a greater unifier. Of course, you can say Christ is a unifier, yes.
Sure. But there is a, I would say, in an equalizer in the world. Mm-hmm. Suffering Because everybody suffers. Everybody suffers.
Even Christians suffer. Christians suffer. Lost people suffer. Everybody suffers. Whether you're a Jewish background or Gentile background, you suffer.
And so, what Paul is doing here is he is discussing. Suffering. Uh you know I when I see somebody who is different than me, I can prejudge them. I can make judgment calls in my mind, in my heart, about them. Like this person is like this because they look like this, or they are of this color, or they are wearing these kind of clothes, or they talk like this.
I'm I'm making prejudgments.
Now Go to a cancer hospital. Sit in the Waiting room. And you will see people of all kinds of colors and backgrounds. That's right. But there is a sense of empathy that you have.
Right. All those differences don't seem so big anymore. Because you go, man, that person is also struggling with the same thing my family member is struggling or I am struggling with. I wonder how much time they have. Because I have this much and I wonder how much they have.
You know, I as a pastor, I've done visitation and sat in waiting rooms. cancer waiting rooms. And I remember one time this couple was there and they thought You know, I was going through something like that. And the man was like, hey, man, look. We have a house at the beach and we go there and we try to make the most of it.
If you wanna ever use that, just know. Wow. And you didn't know this person? I didn't know the person. And we were talking.
Yeah, yeah. I didn't tell him like, you know, I'm fine or whatever. uh because I was there for you know kind of confidentiality for somebody. But I was like, wow They don't know me, but they feel like I'm going through what they're going through, and I may not have much time. That maybe a trip to the beach may lift my spirit.
And some of those moments just really bring the humanity back into your Christian life. You know, that's right. Like, of course, we've been talking a lot about doctrine, but I think, and maybe Dr. Sha, you can speak to this too. The whole point of learning doctrine is so that you become a better Christian.
That's right. So that you have those more human moments. Yeah, this is not just an academic achievement. This is more to understand life. And grow closer to the Lord, but also grow closer to Other believers and also lost people.
Well, yes, exactly. And I think my purpose in saying that is: I think there are some people who would be like, you know, you can keep your doctrine, but that, what you just described, that's the Christianity I want. Yeah. But, but the reason that we dive so deep is because the deeper you dive into God's word, the better you can see those moments. That's right.
Yeah. And so. What Paul is doing here so brilliantly, and of course, filled with the Holy Spirit, he is using suffering. To bring Jewish background and Gentile background people together and say, guys, we all suffer. Don't you know that?
Right. Don't you know that you're going through things that You think the other person is your enemy, but they're going through it as well. And you think they're your enemy, they're going through the same things you're going through.
So you would say that, like, because we called last week's episode the golden chain, or last yesterday's episode the golden chain. This chain really is what binds us in our sufferings. Right. Yeah. Like, it's not, and I know that all things work together for good for me.
No. And we know.
So the first century Roman church that was struggling with this division Paul was telling them, and we know, guys, we are in this together. Take the time. To know each other, they may be having marital struggles, they may be having sicknesses, they may have their children not behaving or doing things that are contrary to how you raise them. You all are, we're all in the same boat.
So, a lot of people may not know this about you, Dr. Shah, but you're a huge part of the songwriting arm of Clearview Church. And one of the things that we notice, and people, Christian other worship leaders have noticed this, so we're not the first, but if you take any modern worship song and start counting. How many times the word I or me is used, you really get shocked. Even songs that we sing here at Clearview, sometimes I'm like, I'm saying I.
There's one in particular, I won't say the name of the song, but there's one where the word I literally is in every line of the verse and chorus. Yeah. And so one of the things we tried to do when we started songwriting here is whenever possible. Always substitute with we or our. Make it plural because Christianity was never meant to be lived in isolation.
That's right. And like, like the when peace like a river attendeth my way. What if we made that our way? I think it would be a lot more of a beautiful song. It's a beautiful song, right?
Maybe Horatio Spafford will actually be happy. Yeah, yeah. He wrote the song: When sorrows like sea billows roll, whatever our lot, thou hast taught us to say, It is well, it is well with our soul. I would say. It may have so much more meaning.
And I know that song already has so much meaning for people.
Well, people, people find meaning in it because it's personal, but at the same time, it's also corporate. You know what I mean? And there's a lot of times where we're singing personal songs as part of corporate worship. And I remember that was one of the things that really transformed the way that I thought about worship and in just songwriting too, is that sometimes you will just have like even verses in the Bible, they're personal. But whenever it's possible, always make it corporate.
And that, and I think even in Romans 8, 28, you see that. For we know. That's right. We know. And then Paul launches into Romans 8:29, which has been our focus, which is.
From God's perspective, you've already arrived. We talked about the past tense of foreknowledge, or he forenew, he pre-appointed, he called, he justified, he glorified. Past tense. And again, we sort of gave it away in the last show, which is From God's perspective, You're already in heaven. You're already seated.
At the right hand, Of the Father, he is seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. That's right. Heavenly places in Christ Jesus. You know, it talks about that in Colossians and other places. You're already there.
And so. As you're going through suffering, We need to realize we are all with him.
So the foreknowledge He foreknew that word is prognosco and. As I explained last time, it's not making someone the object of loving care, as some people in the reform side of things have said. It's just that he knew beforehand. That's right. That's right.
They always try to put more. Maybe not they in a reform, but it's people always try to put more on the word than the Greek word, actually. Is that a do you think that's a product of translating to English? Could be, but I think sometimes people's theologies overshadow their their translation. And and there is a sense of intimacy there for whom he foreknew There is an intimacy aspect in that statement.
He foreknew, like like Psalm 139. you knew me. When I was in my mother's womb, that same idea is there. But out of that, it's not just like I know. It's more like I've known you.
To take that and then to go to the next step, which is, oh, you chose me, you elected me, that I think is bringing more there than Paul intended. That's exactly what I was going to ask. People have taken that and created this doctrine which said that God has elected certain people, that he's like, I love all people, but I love these people. I'm calling and choosing these people. That goes beyond.
Now, that's a topic we can take up another time. But I just want to say that in this passage, it's simply foreknowing intimately beforehand. And then the next word, which is predestined, the Greek word is pro-oritsin. Pro oritsen should be translated pre appointed Or appointed beforehand rather than predestined because predestination is a loaded term.
So I would suggest to keep it Simply, he pre-appointed. Since he knew me beforehand, he pre-appointed me.
Okay, and what did he pre-appoint me? Not to salvation. But to be conformed to the image of his son. He also predestined us to be conformed to the image of his son, which is sanctification, right? Yeah, because that's what we're talking about here.
Right. Of course, you can say sanctification is part of salvation.
So, come on now. I mean, he predestined to salvation. I mean, ultimately. If we start doing that, then of course this passage will become a passage Anything you want it to be. Right, because Paul is not writing, I mean, we say that it's an instruction manual, but at the same time, it's not like input data output solution.
He's also just writing a letter. He's writing a letter for a specific purpose, which is to bring together These believers who are divided, Jewish background, Gentile background. He's trying to bring them together and also, once again, give them a gift, which is this gospel explanation. Paul talks about that. If you remember, eons ago, we discussed that on the show, that it's a gift.
I want to impart to you this gift. He also wants to raise support. For his mission work.
So he wants them to be together. Imagine the church is divided. They're not going to support him like he needs to be supported. Right. So for all those reasons Paul really wants them to get this.
So, God, I mean, of course, God knows your past. He knows what you've done, he knows what you're going to do, but. I guess Coming to him for salvation, right? He embraces you. Because he knew that you were going to.
He he knew that you were going to choose him. Right? No. Okay. No.
See, the moment we bring that in, then now we're doing exactly what sometimes people do, which is they come to this passage and they start talking about you chose him or who chose who, or none of that. In this passage, it is simply He knew you beforehand. You're struggling right now. Hey, look, not just in this life, God has known you and He has pre-appointed you to become like Jesus.
So right now you may not feel like it. Your weaknesses are overshadowing your journey towards Christ. But just know. You are set to go to that journey and you will not fail. You may have ups and downs, and you may leave this world on a down, but that's okay.
But on the other side, God's going to bring His glory to you. You will not lose. That's very different than saying, okay, let's talk about the process of salvation. Are you chosen first or do you have a free will? That may be related.
But that's not what Paul is talking about here. I can answer that question. But then I'm no longer in Romans at that point. Gotcha, gotcha, got you.
So what people are saying, people are bringing in an issue that that may be worth discussing, but it's not found the answer is not found in Romans. It's not on Paul's mind whether or not you chose God Or does God choose you? That's not what he's talking about. He's simply assuring you: hey, buddy, hang in there. God's known you before you were even born.
Right, right. And he loves you even before you came into this world. And guess what? He has pre-appointed you to become like Jesus. You are going to get to that destination, whether in this life or in the life to come.
Because he's speaking to Christians. Right. He's speaking to Christians who are suffering. Right. So he's comforting them.
These are words of assurance.
Okay. This is a golden chain of assurance, not the golden chain of. Sequence of salvation. Right. So to take that Because there's things that overlap and try to say something else.
Then we will definitely create doctrine and doctrinal systems that. that are not coming from the scripture.
So you do see this golden chain of suffering. In Christ. And I think that's another key, right? It's that we're suffering in Christ. Yeah, I would say it's a golden chain of assurance as we go through suffering in Christ.
So, what is the next step? Like, how do we get to this? Paul tells us, he says, right here, moreover, whom he pre-appointed, these he also called. These he also called. Means, yes, you can make this a sequence of salvation, but what he's telling you is: like, hey, you know, you may feel like God is not listening to you, God's not talking to you, but God called you.
God called you, and you heard his voice when you responded to salvation, didn't you? When he was calling on your name and he was tugging on your heart, and you came to him. And then, when you came to him, he justified you. He made you righteous before him. He gave you that as a position, but then also as a nature, all that has been done for you.
It's kind of cool because he is doing essentially what we've been talking about the last couple of days, which is using the doctrine. To bring in the humanity, he's using doctrine to comfort Christians. That's right. And then he says, Then, guess what? You're already glorified.
I know, I know, right now the predicament you're in, sitting in that hospital room, waiting for the doctor to come tell you how many more treatments you have left, or will we proceed or not? Or you're dealing with a wayward child and you're up crying and wondering where you went wrong, or your marriage is on the rocks, or you have a spouse who is not responding like they need to. And I know maybe you are struggling with a depression. Depression is, trust me, Christians struggle with depression, unless you think Charles Persian wasn't a Christian. Yeah.
Of course.
So. In those moments when you don't feel any Sense of glory. From God's perspective, You are glorified. Right. It is a done deal.
It's going to come your way. In fact, When God is up there looking down, it's like, I know, my child, you're crying down there. But I'm outside of time, and you're sitting with me right now. Wow. That's a great point.
That's a great point. The end is already written.
So I think that's a great thing for people to be able to hear because I think, like you said, we talked about yesterday, there are so many people who have ruined relationships and ruined friendships and divided churches over this issue that's really not an issue in this passage at all. Right. And then, if you keep going in that passage in verse 31, it says, What then shall we say to these things? What is the purpose of all these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
That is a very, very important passage. If God is for us, who can be against us? This passage is not about how do you get saved? What happens first? Is it the chicken or the egg?
You know, do you choose or does God choose you? No, God is for us. Right. He's on your side. When you're going through tribulation, suffering, trials, it feels like God is not on your side.
No, God is for us, He is not. Against us, and who can be against us? Who can come against you? I don't know if you remember this, but there's a song by Chris Tomlin that says exactly that: if our God is for us, who can ever stop us? That's the first song.
I love that song because it's the first song I ever did at Clearview. Wow. Very first one. Very first song. Wow.
And I've kept that with me all these. We've long since retired that song. But that bridge, and if our God is for us, who can ever stop us? If our God is with us, what could stand against? I will always remember.
That's where it's coming from. Exactly. Exactly. But I guess what I'm saying is that passage has personal. Meaning to me, because that's the very first song I want to hear.
Yep. It's from Romans. Yes, and then it says in Romans 8:32, as you're going through trials, it says, He who did not spare his own son, but gave him or delivered him up for us all. How shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Mm-hmm.
So as you're going through suffering, what do you need? You need God's grace. You need God's forgiveness. Do you need God's strength? Do you need Patience, do you need money?
Do you need healing? He will give it to you. He said, I know, don't get my hopes up. What if the healing doesn't come? Hey, listen, one way or the other, you will be healed.
That's right. He gave you his own son. If he gave you his son, he's going to give you whatever you need. And sometimes healing is what. is going to come on the other side.
Yeah. But nonetheless, God will fulfill his promises.
Now, listen to verse 33 here. It says, Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? This is where the devil comes in. Because as we're going through suffering, Satan is busy accusing us. He accuses the Jewish background believers and he's accusing the Gentile background believers.
He's going after both. And so Paul is telling them: don't you know that your enemy is not each other? The enemy is your enemy. That's right. So Who shall bring a charge against God's elect?
It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God who also makes intercession for us. And then In verse 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
Shall tribulation I mean, this is what it's about, right? Suffering. That's right. Or distress. Or persecution?
Or famine. I mean, none of these things are like. You know, a golf course, the beach, yeah, nice mountains. You know, the theme park, the mall, the water slides. No, this is all bad stuff.
Right. nakedness, peril, sword as it is written, For your sake we are killed all day long. We are counted as sheep for the slaughter yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I'm persuaded, This This is where we need to keep in mind that this passage is about If God is for us, who can be against us? And if Christ loves us, nothing can take it away.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life. nor angels nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, Shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen.
So, this passage is about that. It's about assurance. Dr. Shah, real quick, we're almost out of time. But if someone is saying, Hey, listen, I really needed this today and I'm afraid that, you know, come tomorrow or come next week, I'm going to start losing a little bit of this confidence, what would you say to them?
I would say, go back and go back to your salvation and know that from God's point of view, you're already there. That's right. You may still have to go through things, but He has given you His Son. Mm-hmm. He is at the right hand.
He has given you the Holy Spirit who's interceding for you. He has given you the body of Christ. The body of Christ is not perfect, but they are people that God has given for you to surround you with His love and support as you go through trials. And just know. that God is for you.
and he will give you what you need when you need it, And as for your love, For Christ Nothing can take that away. Amen.
Beautiful words to end on. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today for the Clearview Today Show. Make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic. Maybe through the Book of Romans, maybe we'll go somewhere else.
But either way, thank you again to our sponsors for supporting today's episode. And don't forget, you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, Pray.com, anywhere you get your Christian podcasting content. And you can always, always, always support us financially on Abadanshah.com. We want to leave you. We are truly out of time, but just a couple of quick things.
Number one, we're doing another live stream on August the 15th, 7 to 9 p.m. Text us, call us, 252-582-5028. We want to pray with you on the air. Also, we have started a new podcast that is Dr. Shah's devotional podcast called The Lighthouse.
You can get that on Apple, Spotify, and Pray.com. And if you're not following Dr. Shah on Pray.com, make sure you go and do it. We're going to have a big celebration episode when we hit 50,000 followers. Love you guys.
We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.
