ViewPoint on Mormonism, the program that examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from a Biblical perspective. ViewPoint on Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism Research Ministry. Since 1979, Mormonism Research Ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now your host for today's ViewPoint on Mormonism. Glad you could be with us today. I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director of Mormonism Research Ministry.
With me today is Eric Johnson, colleague at MRM. And for the past several days, Eric, we've been discussing the doctrine of justification. But as we mentioned earlier in the show, we made it very clear that within the plan of salvation, of course, there is justification, that which makes us right with God, and then there's sanctification, that which separates us unto God and unto his service. I think many times Mormons seem to misunderstand where we as Christians are coming from when we emphasize the gospel of grace. They somehow assume that that means that we don't need to have any good works at all. And certainly that's not what Christianity is professing.
We certainly should have good works. In fact, one of the verses that is often brought up whenever a Christian is talking to a Mormon about this subject is James 2.20. I can't count how many times I've had James 2.20 brought up. And basically, if we want to understand the context of this passage, we go back to James 2.14 where it says, Usually when I have a Mormon bring up, chapter 2, verse 20, James 2.20, I'm very quick to say, I agree with that.
And that sometimes I've actually seen that kind of throws them off as if we don't believe in that, and certainly we do. What does it profit my brother when someone says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him? Or better to understand that, can that kind of faith save him? Because what James is trying to bring out is the difference between having a saving faith that produces something out of the life of the individual, or what's known as antinomianism.
What would you explain that, Eric? Well, it's the idea that you can do whatever you want to do. And you know, the Bible doesn't teach that at all. It does say in Galatians chapter 5 that the acts of the sinful nature are obvious. And it goes through and explains those things, and it says, On the other hand, we have the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Against these things there is no law. When a person becomes a believer, he's going to want to do the good works because of what God has done for him, not for earning his salvation. And I think a lot of people don't understand that we're not out trying to earn brownie points with God, we're doing it out of deep gratitude, sincere gratitude for what he's done for us. What we are doing is clearly showing that there is one thing that God expects that saves us or justifies us, and that is our faith.
We are justified by faith. Paul makes that very clear. And I don't know how any Latter-day Saint can read through the book of Galatians and not understand that.
Oh boy, that's a really big book. I've often said it's almost like it was written by Paul, four Mormons. Now I know that can't be because there were no Mormons back then, but certainly that same issue was back around that time.
Well, you had the Judaizers. You had people who believed that you could be a Christian, but you had to follow certain ceremonial parts of the law, such as circumcision and the way you ate and everything like that. And Paul went after that very big. He did not allow for anybody to call it a true gospel if you were going to add to the gospel of grace. And you know, again, Paul is not against good works.
In Ephesians chapter 2, we quoted that in Ephesians chapter 2, how we're saved by grace through faith and not by works, but then verse 10 very clearly says that we were created onto good works. Not only that, but the Apostle Paul, if you read through the pastoral epistles, I was reading through Titus the other day and it's amazing at how many times he is emphasizing good behavior. He's never saying it has anything to do with whether or not that's going to save or unsave you if you don't do it. He's merely saying that this is how we should behave. For instance, in Titus chapter 2 in verse 6, he says, Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober minded in all things, showing yourself to be a pattern of good works in doctrine, showing integrity, reverence, incompatibility, sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you. And you know what's sad about that? Because when he says that about that your opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you. I have had Mormons many times look at the bad behavior of professing Christians, and they've used that against us.
And that is shameful. And that should not be because if we really do have what we believe to be the truth, we should be living that truth as well. But again, the emphasis needs to be made. We don't look at our ability to perform as having anything to do with our status with God, our justification. Again, that comes by faith. And as you've mentioned, you know, very appropriately in Ephesians 2 10, we are saved unto good works.
We should have those good works. But the problem, of course, for the Mormon is that they intermingle what should justify them or make them right with God and what should set them apart. And they intermingle them in such a way to where if they mess up on the sanctification part, they feel they've lost the justification part. And this is why you have a lot of Mormons who don't know where they're going to go when they die. And this, of course, is a question that I love to ask them. Where do Mormons like you go when they die?
Based on where you are in light of eternity, if you were to die right now, do you have the assurance that you would get the best the Mormon religion has for you? And Bill, what's their answer usually 99% of the time? It's I hope so, it's maybe, I think so, or it's just flat out no. And that's sad. That's sad. Because as a Christian, you should be able to know these things. And I've heard some professing Christians say, well, you know, that's arrogant. It's only arrogant if you think it has something to do with you. See, that's the point. And I think that point needs to be made when we're talking with our Mormon friends.
It's only arrogant if you think it has something to do with you. But we don't believe that. We believe that it has everything to do with what Jesus did on our behalf.
And so I want to emphasize that in a conversation. Whenever a Mormon brings up James 2-20, I want to let them know, hey, I agree completely with what James is saying there. I don't find a problem with that passage. Bill, so often we find younger people who will say they're not sure, they're not doing all they're supposed to do, but they have time to do it.
What's the response you've often said, like on the streets of Manti, to such a young person? Well, you know, it's interesting that you bring that up because just yesterday at church, the message had something to do with the debt that was owed and how the man who owed this huge amount of debt said, be patient with me, as if time was going to solve his problem. Yet he had a debt he could never pay. It was an insurmountable debt. He could never make enough money to pay this debt off.
But yet he's pleading with the debtor, be patient, as if more time is going to solve his problem. And many times I will challenge young Mormons who think that somehow when they get older, they're going to be able to overcome this inability to live all the commandments like they're supposed to and have that assurance. And I challenge them when they go to the Mormon ward the next time to go find the oldest guy they can in the ward and go up and ask him, do you feel that you are living all the commandments? Have you stopped repenting because you do keep all the commandments? And do you have the assurance that if you were to die right now, you would get the best that our religion has for us? And I usually tell them, I can almost guarantee you that even the oldest man in your ward, the man who's been a Mormon the longest, still has doubts about that.
Why? Because he has done exactly what we've been talking about these past several days. He is intermingling what justifies and what sanctifies.
And because he's made that awful mistake, that assurance goes right out the window and he can't know for sure whether he's done enough. And yet 1 John 5.13 says we can know that we have eternal life. A couple other verses that I want to throw out here because this is so important. We've got to go to the Bible to see what it has to say. Philippians 2.12 says that we're supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, not work for. Exactly. And that's how a lot of Mormons look at that passage, that it's actually Paul is saying that you should work for your salvation.
He's not saying that. Work it out. Work it out.
There are going to be things that we're going to have to work on for the rest of our lives. You know, you work out a baseball swing. You know, you're a baseball player and you're a hitter, but you're working it out.
It's not going to stop you from still being called a baseball player. But one other passage I think is so important is Galatians chapter 2 and it says this, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law. For by the works of the law, no flesh be justified. He goes on and says, I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Bill, by saying that our works are necessary to have anything to do with our justification, I think is a damnable heresy. Well it is, and I think a lot of Mormons don't seem to understand that even though they like to throw out James 2.20, I don't find a whole lot of them wanting to go back to James 2.10, where it says, for whoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he is guilty of all. Merely what James is trying to get across here is, look, if you want to be saved by the law, then realize the law is a terrible mistress. There is no mercy with law. You either follow it all the way or you lose completely. And I think Spencer Kimball understood that in his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness.
He seems to understand that quite readily. But a lot of Mormons don't seem to grasp just how awful that is, and you cannot have it both ways, and many times they do. They want to have the law, and at the same time they want to have grace, and it doesn't work that way. That's not a consistent understanding of the New Testament, to be sure. So the next time you have a Mormon throw James 2.20 in your face, just look at him, smile, and say, you know what, I agree with that. I'm not always 100% successful at doing everything that I'm supposed to do, but I certainly do believe that a living faith should have works. It's just that it's not my works that actually justify me in the eyes of God. Make clear that distinction with your Mormon friend, and I think it would help them better understand where we are coming from, and hopefully break down that caricature, that stereotype that many of them have regarding the gospel of grace, and regarding what Bible-believing Christians really do believe. So do take advantage of that situation, and explain that clearly to them. As we look at another viewpoint on Mormonism.
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