This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said, Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now let's begin today's episode. Welcome to Passion for Christ. This is Russ East, your host. And once again, I have my friend Michael Florinoy. Michael is going to share.
From how the Lord saved him out of the Mormon church. and how the Lord has put on his heart It's an acronym that he's going to explain. The acronym is IR. Michael, thanks for being back on Passion for Christ. Take the mic, take the mic, yeah, and just roll with it.
Just tell tell us how we can utilize these things God has put on your heart to reach our Mormon friends and neighbors and so on. Yeah, absolutely.
So Basically, you know, I was an apologist for the Mormon Church, unofficially, but I was debating Christians quite a bit. And there was one topic that I just kept seeing them gushing over grace and how they had grace and as Mormons we didn't. And so I decided that I was going to do an in-depth study on grace itself, and that I would pull the rug out from underneath them.
So I went into a year-long study on the topic, and during that year, there were four points. That I came to believe that led me straight out of Mormonism and into Christianity. And I think it was a lot of retrospect after leaving the church before I kind of realized what those four points were. But it was me trying to explain to my family members and friends the reasons I left. And I realized I just sounded like a raving lunatic.
You know, it made sense in my head. But then when I was trying to tell them about my decision, it just never came out as anything coherent. And so I really started trying to piece together, you know, what is it about grace? Uh that made me decide that Mormonism is wrong, and I needed to be a Christian. And so I'll just go over the four points, you know, real briefly.
The first thing that I came to realize is that God's standard is impossible for us to keep.
So that's what the I stands for: impossible standard. The R stands for reckoned righteousness. The second I stands for indomitable gift. And then the S stands for settled at faith.
So That I impossible standard is the problem. It is the reason that we need the gospel. In Matthew, Jesus says, Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father, which is in heaven, is perfect.
So it kind of shows the standard there. And then in James 2:10, it says that if we keep the whole law, but offend in one point, we are guilty of all. And so we've got this impossible standard that we cannot keep. And as a Mormon, I'm starting to kind of realize this, and I'm thinking, okay, well, I can't prove this theologically, so I'm just going to be really good. I'm going to keep all God's commandments.
And the harder I tried, the more ensnared I realized that I was. To sin. And so the gospel really comes into play with the second letter. Oh, which is reckoned righteousness. It's also called impeded righteousness.
But it's the idea that Jesus came. and lived a perfect life in our stead. and it only crossed that perfect account. Was counted to our ledgers as if we lived God's law perfectly. And uh a good verse for that is Romans 4.5.
So but to him who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted. for righteousness. And so I accepted that as a Mormon. Look at the next Questions that started coming to my head are: okay, so if Christ gives me his righteousness, when does that kick in and how much does that give me? Because in Mormonism, you know, you've got three levels of heaven, you've got, you know, exaltation, you can become a God, you can be sealed with your family for eternity.
So, The uh the I stands for Indomitable Gift. which means the moment you receive the gift of grace. There's nothing you can add to it. You have received everything. You know, it takes you all the way to the Father's presence.
Ephesians 1.3 says, Blessed be the God. And Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places with Christ. I also think of Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman. And he's talking about the living water and how it reaches all the way up into eternal life. And then finally, we have settled at faith, which is just the when of the gospel.
It's when do we receive the gift. In Mormonism, they say that the first principle of the gospel is faith, and then you have to repent and be baptized. But this shows that faith is the only principle of the gospel, and that when we believe in Jesus, all of this is given to us. Hmm. Excellent, excellent.
If I may, would this be a good time for me to interject a question? Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so imagine if I was a member of the Mormon church. And if I was trying to sincerely understand this concept of what Jesus did on the cross Let's walk through it a little bit. I'm going to kind of pretend that I'm actually a Mormon. I'm going to put on my Mormon hat. Like I would wear, you know, as a 14-year-old boy before I got saved and everything.
And let's just say: if I were to ask you this question, Michael, and say, okay.
So, what did Jesus do on the cross opposed to the Garden of Gethsemane? Because in my church, They teach me that in the garden of Gethsemane, that's where Jesus suffered for my sins.
So, did Jesus, like, what did he do? Did he go to hell? Did he suffer for my sins in the garden of Gethsemane? Is he still suffering for my sins today? Are all my sins forgiven, past, present, future?
I'm really confused. I need some help. Great.
So, when I start a conversation with a Mormon, typically, I'll ask them if they've ever heard of the doctrine of imputation. And usually they'll say no. It's not something that they're familiar with, which is great because it gives you a chance to kind of explain it. And I like to do so using their own terminology.
So, Mormons do work for the dead. If somebody died without baptism, for example, a Mormon will go into the temple and be baptized vicariously for their dead ancestor. And then the thought is that that person just needs to accept it on the other side. And it counts as if they did the ordinance.
So I tell a Mormon that you already believe. An imputation that the works of somebody else can be credited to another person. And then I say that what we believe about Jesus, and this shocks them every time, they have no idea that we have this doctrine. We believe that Jesus came and that his entire life was a vicarious ordinance for us, that he lived God's law perfectly and that he gave that to us on the cross. And just like the dead in their temple, All we have to do.
is say yes.
So Michael, okay, that's uh that's really fascinating.
So In a sense, would it be the, and now I'm going to talk more as just like as an evangelical Protestant Christian here. Um is what Jesus did on the cross When the Father said, or when he said, Why have you forsaken me? You know, he said, Why have you forsaken me? Jesus said that to his father.
So. At that moment there was this kind of like this break somewhat of the relationship between the Holy Trinity, like between the Father and the Son. Because that's when Jesus became sin for us. Um But is it Is it to where you know, his righteousness, his His perfection, his being fully God, fully man, and then just dying. I mean, where's we?
We know that the crucifixion was horrific beyond words. But that that doesn't pay for my sins. We'll be right back for the rest of today's testimony. Please know we at Utah Partnerships for Christ have been planting seeds of the gospel in Utah for over 24 years. We welcome any questions you may have and invite you to visit our website to obtain a list of words and definitions that would help you understand how Mormons think and how to be able to better witness to your friends who belong to the Mormon Church.
That website is www.upfc.org. That's upfc. We'll be right back. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light.
and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now let's begin today's episode. So When I start a conversation with a Mormon, typically, I'll ask them if they've ever heard of the doctrine of imputation. And usually they'll say no. It's not something that they're familiar with. It's great because it gives you a chance to kind of explain it.
And I like to do so using their own terminology.
So Mormons do work for the dead. If somebody died without baptism, for example, a Mormon will go into the temple and be baptized vicariously for their dead ancestor. And then the thought is that that person just needs to accept it on the other side. And it counts as if they did the ordinance.
So I tell a Mormon that you already believe in imputation, that the works of somebody else can be credited to another person. And then I say that what we believe about Jesus, and this shocks them every time, they have no idea that we have this doctrine. We believe that Jesus came and that his entire life was a vicarious ordinance for us, that he lived God's law perfectly and that he gave that to us on the cross. And just like the dead in their temple. All we have to do.
is a yes.
So Michael, okay, that's uh that's really fascinating.
So In a sense, would it be the, and now I'm going to talk more as just like as an evangelical Protestant Christian here, is what Jesus did on the cross. When the Father said, or when he said, Why have you forsaken me? You know, he said, Why have you forsaken me? Jesus said that to his father.
So. At that moment, there was this kind of like this break somewhat of the relationship between The Holy Trinity, like between the Father and the Son. Because that's when Jesus became sin for us. Um But is it uh is it to where you know, his righteousness, his... His perfection, his being fully God, fully man, and then just dying.
I mean, where's the we know that the crucifixion was horrific beyond words? Yeah. But that doesn't pay for my sins. Um I guess one could say like his his death Going from being human, becoming taking on flesh, and then dying actually and being dead for three days. But having that track record of perfection.
And then and then having it to where this is This, like you say, is imputed to us. That I can I can you know I can gather pretty well, you know, after being a Christian for a long time. But then where I think I still get like kind of bogged down, rightly so, I'm sure, is just to imagine that the punishment Yeah. of uh of God Almighty. You know, um was Inflicted on Jesus.
Can you help us understand that a little bit more? Say if you're talking to a Mormon. And what took place as far as paying the punishment or becoming sin? What was that like for Jesus? Like, was it a concentrated gazillion billion years of punishment in an hour on the cross?
Or was it in the Garden of Gethsemane? You know, I'm just kind of throwing some of these things out there for our friends who might be listening who are Mormon. Great.
And I'll try to answer as many of those as I can. Yeah. But it's Luke's account that really gets into detail about what's going on in the Garden of Gethsemane. And keep in mind, Luke is a physician. And he talks about how Jesus is, you know, sweating like great drops as if it were blood.
And I always found it interesting that he says, as if it were. Blood, and I'm. I think if it actually was blood, he would have said so. He's a physician. That's a good point.
But I'm kind of assuming that it probably was miscolored sweat. And this can happen when you're suffering through extreme stress. And so I think Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane is not taking our sins yet. You know, he says that he has to still partake of the font of the the cup. You know, the cup of God's wrath.
This has not yet happened here, but he is preparing for. what is going to happen on the cross. And what's interesting is even in the Book of Mormon, And It almost it really doesn't reference the Garden of Gethsemane, but the cross is referenced. dozens of times. Wow, that's interesting.
It is because Mormon teaching doesn't emphasize the cross, but the Book of Mormon does. Where is that found approximately? Would that be like in 3rd Nephi or something like that? It's definitely in 3rd Nephi. I think it's said a lot in 2 Nephi.
Okay. And for our listeners who aren't even familiar with what that is, that's towards the back of the Book of Mormon, you'll find that the Mormon scriptures include this portion. It's kind of a smaller book or record, supposedly. You know, it's not accurate. It's not true.
But the idea is that Jesus came to the Americas somewhere, North America, South America, and set up 12 apostles here and then made various teachings. And even on a different subject, we could talk about, but his apostles. They prayed to Jesus, and you don't find that in like gospel principles or anything, and that's kind of a no-no, you know. And uh, boy, this is where the Peter, uh, let's see, it was um, the three Nephite apostles they wanted to live forever because they thought that the apostle John lived forever, um, and so they seem to be roaming the earth and so on. Those are two other topics we could talk about maybe on another episode, but.
But yeah, going back to the yeah. I did find like a reference, 1 Nephi 11:33, so it's pretty close to the beginning, but it says, and I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. Wow.
So it actually says it explicitly right there, even though their teaching will, you know, especially their older teaching, will say that this all happened in the Garden of Gethsemane. That's where he took our sins. And then the cross was just an unfortunate accident, you know, where they murdered Jesus. I remember as a kid asking my mom, like, why don't we have crosses on our churches? And she's like, well, that was the murder weapon, you know, they used to kill Jesus.
But then as a Christian, I read about Jesus saying that no one takes my life from me, but I give it willingly. Right, right. And so do you think that when Jesus was on the cross, do you think, Michael, that Jesus in a concentrated form. Like he experienced all the shame, all of the pain. Every liquor store that was ever robbed, and that kind of guilt and shame.
He felt that? Is that being irreverent or is that being too simplistic about this? But you took all the sins, every curse word, everything, every vile thing that mankind has done. Jesus, in a sense, like bore that kind of shame on his conscience, on his on his, you know. on his whole bean, would you say?
You know, that is how I imagine it. Yeah. And I think it gets even worse because there's this other element that I think just makes the pain of the crucifixion and even the shame and guilt, you know, just seem like it's not as significant. But you see this word in Romans where it calls Jesus the propitiation for our sins. And of course, that's a word Mormons are completely unfamiliar with.
But that just means that basically he was there to take God's wrath in our place. And so because God is just, totally just. He cannot just forgive sin. On a win. The punishment has to happen.
And so on the cross, Jesus actually experiences the full wrath of God. Yeah, and it has to be somehow in some way that's almost impossible for us to imagine, but it could be like. A gazillion billion to the gazillion billionth power, or something like that. You know, that's why we need forgiveness. And we need the perfect, the God-man.
to step in our place and to be that that The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, like John the Baptist said. Isn't that right? It's just it's just makes it makes you stop and think twice about Wow, do I really want to? pollute my mind with that That comedy movie that's got a bunch of vulgar stuff in it. I mean, really, you know, do I need to get a laugh on Friday night and watching a movie that's gonna be something that I you know know that's it's not honoring?
I wouldn't be sitting here with Jesus watching this. You know what I mean? And you think about all the sin that Jesus, the sin of the world that Jesus took on himself, it's just overwhelming. Yeah, and you, you know, the verse that comes to my mind is where Paul is saying that if righteousness came by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
So you look at all that he went through, and it says, if there was a law that could make you righteous, there would be no need for Jesus to have come and died. And that's really what kind of goes back to my point about it being an impossible standard. And people ask me, how do I help my Mormon friends and family? And I always say the first thing that needs to happen is they need to be convicted of their sin. If they are not convicted of their sin, then there's no.
Use for the gospel in their mind. They're not going to want it. They're not going to appreciate it. But when they come to that point where they realize I am a sinner and I have no means of escaping from this hole, from this damnation, that is when Christ's sacrifice is so sweet. To them.
Right, right. It's no longer just someone that we're trying to exemplify. We're trying to emulate. Oh, I can be like Jesus. It's like, well, yes, you can, but no, you can't.
I mean, you know, you're not Jesus. You're not going to become a God. And. You can be the most spirit-controlled Russ or Michael, Florinoi, you know, th that that's good, that's good, you know, but let's let's not go too far here in thinking that because then, you know, we're then we're kind of getting into Mormon ideas of, you know, some day reaching this full exaltation. What do you what do you say to a Mormon when they when they say, and I've heard this said, um, Well, you're going to be happiest in whatever degree of glory that Jesus puts you in.
That's where you're going to want to be. You may not want to be up there in that celestial, but that's okay. Don't you worry about it. Don't you fret none at all because you can be in the terrestrial degree. And that'll be really beautiful.
In fact, you know what? If you're better off down in the telestial, you know, you have to go to hell for a thousand years and burn off your sins and pay for your sins, but you'll be in a place where you're going to be pretty happy. I mean, I'm sounding a little facetious in my voice here because it just drives me insane. But that kind of narcissistic view of heaven where even the telestial degree in their eyes. They don't even have Jesus going there to visit you.
I mean. You'll be visited by the Holy Ghost.
So it's kind of like bronze, silver, gold. And it's just, it's awful, you know? Yeah. And then the platinum is that you're, you know, sealed to your wife. And that's the emphasis is that you're going to spend eternity with your spouse, making spirit children and growing them.
And at that point, all three members of the Godhead are kind of out of the picture. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like we don't need them anymore. Thanks for thanks for being our waiter and getting us to where we've gotten. But I'll call you if I want to visit you sometime myself or whatever.
Yeah. It's right. Yeah, and I'll say that honestly, when they start talking about heaven, is like you're going to choose where you're happiest, I'm not going to lie, it offends me a little bit because when I left the Mormon church, uh, it caused so much suffering in my life. Uh, my uh, it was the last cherry on top, you know, my wife divorced me, um, it harmed. A lot of my relationships went into being a believer, you know, having depression probably for the first year of it.
And I just look back at these moments. I'm like, you think I chose this because it makes me happier? Yes. Hey, let's continue this. We have a hard break coming up in like 10 seconds, and I'm so sorry.
I want to say thank you, and let's have you on again if we can here on Passion for Christ.
Okay. Michael, thank you so much for being on the program again. I look forward to having you back again here. Let's hear more from Michael here on Passion for Christ. Before we sign off for today, please know that all of us here at Utah Partnerships for Christ appreciate your prayers and support.
We are also available to do Zoom call workshops or personal coaching on Reaching Mormons for Christ. Contact us today at upfc.org. That's upfc.org. Thanks so much for joining us on another edition of Passion for Christ.
