This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said, Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now let's begin today's episode. Did the three witnesses see Physical gold plates. Welcome to this edition of Viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host, Bill McCaver, founder and director of Mormonism Research Ministry, and with me today is Eric Johnson, my colleague at MRM. We've been looking at an article in the March 2024 edition of the Leah Hona magazine, an article titled Witnesses of the Gold Plates of the Book of Mormon.
It was written by Mark Ashurst McGee, senior historian, Joseph Smith Papers Project in the Church History Department. And Mr. Ashurst McGee is trying to make the case that the witnesses, and there were several he claims, saw physical gold plates, therefore substantiating the story that Joseph Smith told when an angel by the name of Moroni came to him in his bedroom and told him of these gold plates that contain a record of ancient inhabitants that lived in the western continent. How would these others be allowed to see actual physical tangible plates, but yet not the three that are mentioned in the Book of Mormon? That would seem to make no sense whatsoever.
But he, like other historians, because I don't think Mark Ashurst McGee is original on this. I've read these. same arguments in other places. But this seems to be the narrative that the history department of the LDS Church is trying to push now. But this is what the history book says.
Now we've read this before on past shows, but since the church is bringing this up again, we want to address it once again. On page 52, it says, in the course of the work of translation, we ascertained that three special witnesses were to be provided by the Lord to whom he would grant that they should see the plates from which this work, and in parentheses it says the Book of Mormon, should be translated, and that these witnesses should bear record of the same as will be found recorded in the Book of Mormon, page 581.
Now you have to understand at this time, the Book of Mormon was not broken down into chapters and verses. It read pretty much like a novel.
So this would be found on page 581. In our modern editions, we find it's found in the book of Ether, chapter 5. Ether is the next to the last book in the Book of Mormon. It precedes the last book called... Moroni.
Almost immediately after we made this discovery, now who would be the we? This would be Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery because Oliver Cowdrey is his principal scribe. But there were others also that show up here in this story. It reads almost immediately after we had made this discovery, it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and the aforementioned Martin Harris. And then in parentheses, it says, who had come to inquire after our progress in the work.
parentheses, that they would have me inquire of the Lord to know if they might not obtain of him the privilege to be these three special witnesses. And finally, they became so very solicitous and urged me so much to inquire that at length I complied. And through the Urim and Thummum, I obtained of the Lord for them the following.
Well, the following on this page, which is 53, is taken from Doctrine and Covenants section 17. Remember, in yesterday's show, I was talking about it sounds like Joseph Smith was strongly influenced, perhaps to say it nicely, by these three men that are very close to him. That would be Oliver Cowdery, his distant cousin. David Whitmer and Martin Harris. They, more or less, from this description, it sounds like they are pushing into, pray, ask God, can we, can we, can we be the three witnesses?
Please, please, please, can we be the three witnesses? This is how it almost sounds like when you read this portion of the record. And then finally, Joseph Smith, he says, they became so solicitous, urged me so much to inquire that at length I complied. And what are the requirements?
So let's just look at the first couple of verses in section 17. Behold, I say unto you that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim, and the thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness on the borders of the Red Sea.
Now, there's a lot of names in there, and there's a lot of story in there, and a lot of it is not really all that relevant, but it's basically giving an account from the Book of Mormons of some objects that it mentions.
Now, the breastplate would be the breastplate that was holding the Urim and Thummim as they came to be known. The spectacles that Joseph Smith would use when he looks through these stones, the reformed Egyptian on the plates would miraculously turn into English. English wasn't even invented or wasn't even known at that time when Moroni supposedly buries these plates. That's just a thought that I had that I thought I'd throw in there. You're a Latter-day Saint, you might say, Well, whoever has those spectacles, it would be the language of that person.
But I guess we'll never know. But I wonder how many Latter-day Saints have ever thought about that.
Well, when we look at section 17 in the Doctrine and Covenants, we look at verse 2, and it says, And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, them being the gold plates, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.
So here's what we see: the formula for these witnesses to see the plates. Number one, is you have to have faith. Why would you need faith to see physical, tangible, Plates.
Now whenever I used to take my 80 pound sheet metal plates down to the Mormon Miracle Pageant, I would be telling them the story as I read it from their own history, and I tried very hard to stick very closely to what their history actually says. And I would get to the part where Joseph Smith instructs the three that they have to have faith to see the plates. And I would ask Latter-day Saints that I'm speaking to, Did you need faith to see my replica sheet metal plates? And of course they would say, sometimes with a chuckle, Well, no. And I would say, you know why.
And they would say, why? And I would say, because mine are real. You don't need faith to see physical places. I think that's very important. And sometimes it's often overlooked.
Well, after these three men, And I guess I'm safe in saying coaxed Joseph Smith into praying and getting God to tell him, or getting the Lord to tell him that these are the three that the Book of Mormon speaks of, is going to eventually allow them to see the plates. And we're given this description on page 54 of the documentary History of the Church, Volume 1. It says, not many days after the above commandment was given, we four, Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and myself, agreed to retire into the woods and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer the fulfillment of the promises given in the above revelation that they should have a view of the plates. And I would ask Latter-day Saints, did you have to pray to see my plates? And of course, again, they would say no.
Well, why not? I think the answer is simple, because my plates, my replica sheet metal plates, are real. I mean, they're actually made of metal. But yet, these men are told you've got to have faith, and now you have to pray. And I'm just thinking, that's an interesting combination if the plates were real.
What does he go on to say here? We accordingly made choice of a piece of woods convenient to Mr. Whitmer's house to which we retired. And having knelt down, we began to pray in much faith to Almighty God to bestow upon us a realization of these promises. Again, we have to ask the question: why are they going out to a piece of woods convenient to Mr.
Whitmer's house? When Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey have been translating the plates in Mr. Whitmer's house. If you visit there, you will be taken upstairs to a small bedroom and you'll see a table there. This is supposedly the area where it happened, even though it's all been recreated.
None of this cabin is original. But this is what you're led to believe.
So they leave the area where the plates are supposedly located because that's where they're being translated to go out into the woods. And they pray, and nothing happens. Nothing happens. According to the story on page 54, I commenced by vocal prayer to our Heavenly Father and was followed by each of the others in succession. We did not, at the first trial, however, obtain any answer or manifestation of divine favor in our behalf.
What happens? Martin Harris thinks he's the reason, so he withdraws himself. After he withdraws himself, they have this angel appear to the three men that are remaining. Remember, Martin Harris isn't there. They saw a light above them in the air, exceeding brightness.
An angel stood before them, and he was holding the plates. He starts to turn the leaves, and there's a voice out of heaven saying that the translation of these plates, which you have seen, is correct. I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear. It goes on to the next paragraph. Joseph Smith is now speaking, and this is what he does.
He goes to find Martin Harris. I now left David and Oliver and went in pursuit of Martin Harris, whom I found at a considerable distance, fervently engaged in prayer. He soon told me, however, that he had not yet prevailed with the Lord and earnestly requested me to join him. In prayer, that he also might realize the same blessings which we had just received. We accordingly joined in prayer and ultimately obtained our desires.
For before we had yet finished, the same vision was open to our view. At least it was again open to me. The same vision. was open to their view. We get the impression from the wording of this account that they did not see tangible plates, but plates in a vision.
We'll be right back for the rest of today's testimony. Please know we at Utah Partnerships for Christ have been planting seeds of the gospel in Utah for over 24 years. We welcome any questions you may have and invite you to visit our website to obtain a list of words and definitions that would help you understand how Mormons think and how to be able to better witness to your friends who belong to the Mormon Church. That website is www.upfc.org. That's upfc.org.
We'll be right back. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now let's begin today's episode. At this point, I'm now married. I'm responsible for these three Daughters I baptized two of them. I'm now going through the temple. and got sealed there.
after uh being married civilly. In a gym, by the way, in a ward building, I always tell people that I got married in a gym. I but anyways, it would have turned out nice. The only reason why is because we couldn't take pictures inside the chapel. And we wanted pictures.
My side of the family was on one side. Her side of the family was on the other side. And you got to remember this. My friends, as I was saying, were Christian. They came and supported me anyways.
They came and were there for me. and never said anything about you're joining the wrong church or you're marrying the wrong woman. Anything like that, they loved on me no matter what. And so, and for many years after that, we stayed in contact. Um And they never said anything about it.
They never mentioned anything to me, so I was under the impression that I was doing the right thing of being a Mormon, being a Melchizedek priestholder, going through the temple eventually, getting sealed there with not just. My wife at the time but one of my daughters as well. I'm going through all that and Being a part of the Mormon church I almost at a very very high level because one of my stepdaughters was married to somebody who was a a 70. From Peru. And so I got some privileges of, you know, sitting in the front row at.
conference and stuff like that and being You've been able to go through Certain rooms in the LA temples that no one's used in over a hundred years. And I thought I was very uppity-uppity, very privileged to have all this. Um being done and thought that, oh gosh, this is going to be great. This is going to be a wonderful life. People, you know, respect me supposedly.
And so I went through that whole. Two decades of being a Mormon. And not knowing that I made the wrong mistake, As time went on, I started to realize that I made a mistake. At that point, about 10 years later, being a Mormon and going through all these things and Doing the best I can as a moral. That's just my attitude in life, but Even with all that.
And doing the best I can. I felt like I'm still missing something. I kept on remembering. My old pastor. My old Christian friends.
Remembering even the sermons. that spoke volumes to me. And I can recall they asked me to make a, have a talk. on on the Atomic It was my first talk. And I was so petrified, just sort of like I am right now.
So normally the man. Gets a top class. But since I didn't know if I could last 15 minutes I Secretly told my wife At the time, could you talk first? You're gonna be a little bit more. No, excuse me.
Could I talk first? That way if I Don't fill up that 15 minutes you can fill in the blank because my ex-wife likes to talk a lot.
So, anyways.
So anyways, I get up there and I didn't know what they really wanted. I'm like, the atonement. You know, what does it have to do with the cross?
So At this time, I'm thinking to myself, I think I made a mistake. It's more than just the atonement. is what he did on the cross for us. and how he shed his blood for us. and how he was a perfect example.
for what we need to be. His example is what I long for now. What he went through I totally understand why now. Is that he died for my sins?
So I don't have to. You know, to be perfect because I can't be perfect. I am I want to just pause here for just a moment because one of the things that this gentleman Alvarado said was That the cross didn't seem to really involve the atonement. And you have to remember with Mormon thinking. Uh Mormon teaching would would say that the atonement took place partly in the Garden of Gethsemane.
And so when Jesus sweat, as it were, drops of blood, This is this kind of suffering that a Mormon classroom would involve teachings that would not really put all of the emphasis on the cross. We know that The Bible does say that, yes, Jesus was suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane, but that's not where the atonement took place.
So the atonement was the Uh It was it was a It was the death that was that was necessary and It wasn't in the Garden of Gethsemane. And I remember being in a classroom one time of Mormons, and I said, What if Jesus never went to the Garden of Gethsemane and just died on the cross? Would that have been enough to pay for our sins? And the room was quiet, and there were about. Twenty-five men in there, and then the teacher of the class.
He said, I just don't know.
So you see, this is just something that I thought I should just kind of jump in there just to help explain a little bit of that.
So we'll continue on with the the interview that uh is off of the website uh Meet the Ex-Mormons. It's done by Rob Savolka. And so we'll continue now. Fall so short of that. And As I was giving this talk and preparing it, I recalled a scripture that my pastor told me one time.
He actually took. a scripture that we all know, John 3.16. And he combined it with The scripture in Matthew chapter 13, verses 44, which talks about the field. This talks about the treasure hidden in that field. And What this person did to purchase that fealty.
He sold all to purchase the whole field. And as I remember how my pastor taught it, and how it relates to John 3.16. For God so loved the world Just like this man. found this treasure in this field God so loved the world. The guy went bankrupt and I was Telling them about this scripture that my pastor shared with me and how it relates to John 3.16.
How God went bankrupt for us. how he went out there And purchased the whole field, so all that he had gave his son. for that field. The field was the world, that was us. He gave that.
Uh willingly. for the joy of having us. It says in Matthew. Chapter 13, verse 44. For the joy of it.
He wit sold all. He went bankrupt for us. And that was The cost of his son, his blood. For us. And I shared that parable with them because I do love parables.
I think parables tell so much truth. And in that parable in Matthew, it shares a truth. that you can't just glance over. It's eternal. And it's eternal in my life now.
Um Was I ever Not a Christian during those two decades of being a Mormon. You know. I was a Christian. I was just lost. I was just a prodigal son.
trying to find his way back to his heavenly father. And once I found him, I ran to him. I read so And And yes, it parted out. Helping me to get back with him was what I experienced when I was younger. If I'd never experienced that, I would have stayed a Mormon.
I would have been comfortable with helping people. Being a part of that religion. doing works Doing stuff to get me to a higher level, doing things to help me. uh achieve certain degrees I know I don't have to do that. I know that my Heavenly Father sees me.
Justify. And he's sanctifying me now. Through his word through understanding his word now. and through other people. You know, I'm accountable to other people now, and I love that.
And I just I thank the Heavenly Father for taking me out of those two decades. It felt like such a waste of time. I still have a relationship with my ex-wife. She lives in California. She's doing wonderful.
I call her a little mini Donald Trump because of all the properties she has. And so I still help her. I can remember When our divorce started, And she left me. That's when I started to say to myself, Wait a second. I went down the wrong road.
Now here's my opportunity. God answered my prayer. over the last 10 years to help me get out of this religion. and help me to find you again. I lost the joy.
I lost the peace. I lost the fact that I didn't even know if I was a Christian anymore, but yes, I was. God loved me. No matter what kind of mistakes I've done, he loved me. And so I can remember explaining to my ex-wife when she was visiting.
About grace. And she could not understand it. Yeah. She could understand it. how it's just given to you as a gift.
this gift of righteousness that you don't deserve. But yet it's a gift. And I told her, all you gotta do is receive it. You don't have to do anything for it. She's like You know, I don't have to work for it.
I don't understand this. What if you don't do anything right? What if you're not good?
So you can go out and sin and things like that. No, the scriptures tell us: God forbid. You know, don't take advantage of that grace that God gives us. But yet she couldn't understand what Grace was all about. I don't know if there is a a blinder like there was on me for a couple decades.
But definitely could not see that. And at that point I realized All I can be is an example. Through what God Well, if you'd like to hear the rest of Alvarado's testimony, you can go to Meetthex Mormons. Meetthexmormons.org, and you can hear the entirety of this testimony.
So. As we're concluding for this episode of Passion for Christ, I want to thank you for joining us. I'd like to be a resource for you. If you would like to have some resources, a glossary of Mormon terms and how they differ from Christianity might be helpful to you, or some just some books and so on that will help you reach your Mormon neighbors and friends for Christ. I'd be glad to do that.
So send me an email. Russ at upfc.org. We'd love to talk to you about how you could support us financially. We are trying to raise 150 people that would commit to $50 a month to help us continue to do our ministry.
So I would love to talk with you about that. Our website, as you've heard, is It's www.upfc.org. I want to thank Kevin McGehe again for his music that he does for this program. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you again next week here on Passion for Christ. Before we sign off for today, please know that all of us here at Utah Partnerships for Christ appreciate your prayers and support.
We are also available to do Zoom call workshops or personal coaching on reaching Mormons for Christ. Contact us today at upfc.org. That's upfc.org. Thanks so much for joining us on another edition of Passion for Christ.
