This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now, let's begin today's episode. Welcome to another edition of Passion for Christ. This is Russ East, your host. On today's episode, I'm going to be playing a part of an interview between Earl Erskine. And Lisa Brockman is from the X-Mormon Files you can find on YouTube.
I thought you might enjoy hearing this part of the story of someone who has come out of the Mormon church and just some of the struggles that this individual experienced in that whole aftermath. Know of becoming a Christian.
So we'll get that started in just a moment. Let me just say quickly: I appreciate your prayers and any support you might like to give as I am planning to go to Ghana, Africa, Lord willing, September 3rd through the 10th to do some outreach there with like a pastor's conference and some outreach training and trying to get radio, Christian radio, into Ghana, Africa.
So just go to upfc.org. If you'd like to help contribute towards that, and with that, let's begin the interview. You were the apostate who wrecked the eternal family. You didn't search with a genuine heart, otherwise, she'd still be, she'd still have a testimony that the church is true. She didn't understand the gospel.
Uh as you mentioned, Gary fed her a bunch of lies and uh just didn't And she just believed it all. And um The cross. You had an interesting story interaction with your mom about the cross, right? You were wearing a cross.
Well, as Mormons we didn't Believe in the cross. Like the cross was not a positive thing. We didn't have them in our churches. The cross was not something to be adored. It was not something to boast in, as the Apostle Paul says.
And so I remember after I had that experience on my 21st birthday, where I gave every addiction to Jesus, every part of me, gave him access to just set me free, and he did. I could not wait to get a cross. And so it was like 1990 and or 80, yeah, 1990 and or 91. And all they had were these gothic, bright, bold, gold crosses at the Christian bookstore, which I thought, this rocks. I will not wear this in the presence of my family, but when I'm not with family, I will wear this with pride.
And so I got my cross.
Well, I just told my family I was a Christian about a few weeks earlier. And it was a Saturday and I thought I'm not going to see my family today, so I put on my cross and I was at my little house and My mom had sent me a letter the day before. And it was a six page letter and it was a very like she had poured out all of her angst and about my leaving the church.
Well, I think it was filled with So much emotion. It wasn't concern. Like she had She made comments like, you've destroyed the family. You've used us for our unconditional love. Um You need to return to church with us or else Things like that, where it was just her grasping at whatever she could do, and I don't falter for any of it.
I think if I were in her shoes, I could be guilty of the same thing. But when I got that letter in the mail, we didn't have email, so it came in snail mail. It was just like the oh, the heaviest weight on me, a punch in the gut. I already Um our journey for several weeks had already been so emotional and painful for everybody.
So my greatest joy was their greatest devastation. And I was very in tune with that. And I think God just gave me a compassion for them, which I'm grateful for.
So all that to say, I'm home alone with this letter and I didn't know how to respond and I wasn't ready to. And so my dear mom shows up. I hear the doorbell. I go answer the door. I have my big gold cross on and my mom's there just with tears streaming down her face.
And she's like, I haven't heard from you and I sent you that letter and I just need to know if you're okay. And she was soaked. She does. Like she's a lover. And so but when I open the door, she goes, What's around your neck?
And then she lunged forward to yank it off my neck and fell over the threshold of my door. I took a step back of my doorway and I was like. Holy cow, like that's the impact of the cross on them. But she loves you so much. She does.
She does. She's been a warrior.
Well as I went through the book and I just was so impressed with how you've written it and you said that it took you I mean, it's been in the last six years that you were writing it, but more specifically in the last year or so.
Well, I wrote the publisher's proposal, which only included the first chapter. It was all the book overview, chapter overviews, things like that.
So once Harvest House publisher gave me the offer that they were going to buy my book. Then I started writing.
So I'd only written the first chapter, but when Harvest House sent the offer, they What I'd heard from the Lord the whole time I was working on that proposal for five long years, which that's really long to write a proposal. Was my timing is perfect. I would just keep hearing God whisper, my timing is perfect. And I just trusted that. And my agent was so patient.
They would, I think they forgot about me for some years because I would submit nothing for a whole year. Life was just full and hard. And so the first words from Harvest House were perfect timing exclamation point. And we were so captivated. By the first chapter, our marketing director asked if you could submit another 100 pages for review.
Quickly.
So that was so affirming, and I was blown away. I did not think I was going to get a publisher. You could come easily as you started working on it? Oh, no. Did you struggle with that?
I've worked through my story many times over the years. with counselors, spiritual directors, in community. God's done a lot of healing, but I have never, to write my story knowing this is going to go out to the masses. And it's about family. It's not just my story, it's my parents' story.
And from my perspective. alongside Mormon doctrine. Researching Mormon doctrine, making sure I have all my doctrine. accurate as I knew it to be. That works based Acceptance.
That God, that Mormon vision of God. who blesses if you're worthy and removes blessing if you're not. Who loves you if you're worthy, removes blessing if you're not. As I wrote my story alongside that shadow, That was just a heart-wrenching journey of shame, shame, so much shame. And I realized how much, you know, the most important thing about us is our view of God and its associated images.
And I realized how much that That energy of that view of God still can infiltrate. My life today, and it's been 29 years since I came to the biblical Jesus.
Now, explain that a little bit more. Do you mean what we have to be doing instead of what He's done for us? Is that what you're doing? How that view? I think that I still tend to deal with shame.
Oh, shame. Oh, shame. And I. There's no shame in the kingdom. Jesus absorbed it all.
But still there will be shame for behavior, shame for the way I don't love well, rather than brokenness, which leads to repentance, which leads to a release of who I'm designed to be even more.
So I think that's what I saw. And then Simmering. in my childhood, simmering in that works-based Yeah. Place. That was.
I haven't simmered there like that. And then knowing. I need to release my relationships once again. I did that when I left Mormonism. I feel like I'm leaving Mormonism all over again.
We'll be right back for the rest of today's testimony. Please know we at Utah Partnerships for Christ have been planting seeds of the gospel in Utah for over 24 years. We welcome any questions you may have and invite you to visit our website to obtain a list of words and definitions that would help you understand how Mormons think and how to be able to better witness to your friends who belong to the Mormon Church. That website is www.upfc.org. That's upfc.org.
We'll be right back. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now let's begin today's episode. By the first chapter, our marketing director asked if you could submit another 100 pages for review. So that was so affirming, and I was blown away. I did not think I was going to get a publisher. You could come easily as you started working on it.
Oh, no. Did you struggle with that? I've worked through my story many times over the years. with counselors, spiritual directors, in community. God's done a lot of healing, but I have never, to write my story knowing this is going to go out to the masses.
And it's about family. It's not just my story, it's my parents' story. And from my perspective. alongside Mormon doctrine. Researching Mormon doctrine, making sure I have all my doctrine accurate as I knew it to be.
That works based Acceptance. That God, that Mormon vision of God who blesses if you're worthy and removes blessing if you're not, who loves you if you're worthy, removes blessing if you're not. As I wrote my story alongside that shadow, that was just a heart-wrenching journey of shame, shame, so much shame. And I realized how much, you know, the most important thing about us is our view of God and its associated images. And I realized how much that That energy of that view of God still can infiltrate.
My life today, and it's been 29 years since I came to the biblical Jesus.
Now, explain that a little bit more. Do you mean what we have to be doing instead of what He's done for us? Is that what you're doing? How that view? I think that I still tend to deal with shame.
Oh, shame. Oh, shame. And there's no shame in the kingdom, Jesus absorbed it all. But still there will be shame for behavior, shame for the way I don't love well, rather than brokenness, which leads to repentance, which leads to a release of who I'm designed to be even more.
So I think that's what I saw. And then Simmering. in my childhood, simmering in that works based Yeah. Place. That was I haven't simmered there like that.
And then knowing I need to release my relationships once again. I did that when I left Mormonism. I feel like I'm leaving Mormonism all over again. In fact, two months before the book release, my publisher was asking me to engage in marketing. And the idea of doing putting out information on social media was just dreadful to me.
I've just been so tender toward my family, and I tender toward those relationships.
Well, and God has very much. Invited me to write this story and to continue writing, even though I jumped ship so many times and stopped. And so I knew this is a calling on my life that I'm supposed to write, and I'm going to be faithful to that.
So. What I liked about it is, especially for a well, a Mormon, certainly, but even for Christians, that they would get a sense of more in-depth about baptism for the dead and sacrament and worship and just the different topics of Mormonism, the temple, and all those things. You've covered those as your journey carried you through those different things. And I think it's really, really insightful. There were a few things that I ran through as I did this, and maybe we'll finish up with it.
Did you have some thoughts or things you wanted to share real quickly, or anything that you've come across?
Well, a little bit. Even for what's interesting is a friend of mine is a Christian therapist, counselor, and she read the book. Like in overnight. Yeah. And She ordered two more copies the next day for clients of hers who are Christians but are struggling with their vision of God being that it's performance-based love and acceptance.
And that's not who God is. And so she's like, this is not just for Mormons, post-Mormons, this is for Christians too, because through my story, All the vision of the biblical God. I didn't write this as an anti-Mormon book. I wrote this as a loving and compassionate window into the culture of Mormonism and the doctrine and my journey toward the biblical Jesus. And what my hope is is that this is.
This is a vision of the biblical God that's so compelling, you will want to taste and see him. And you've had some good responses, right? Yes. It's been very encouraging. Oh, that's good.
And it's just been out, like we said, October 1st. That's awesome.
Well, a couple of the thoughts that I came across, and we've covered a few of these, but Um Just one was working for my glory and my goal, you know, and having my idols. Any thoughts on that? We just.
Well, I didn't know that that's what we were doing in Mormonism. I didn't know that. Working toward exaltation into godhood was Working for my glory. I don't know, but it's because I didn't have the contrast. of glorifying God.
That wasn't in my paradigm of understanding, that there's this holy God. who's completely with me. Because of Jesus. Like he designed us to be in his community of love, of this Trinitarian community. And we give all glory to him.
Yes. And what he did for us that we couldn't do for ourselves, yeah. Absolutely.
So because there wasn't the contrast, you know, when you have, you don't know what good is without bad, you don't know what dark is without light, you don't know. When you're glorifying yourself, if you haven't had a vision of glorifying God. That's excellent. And chapter seven, I just loved. This was layers, and I think it was the things that you were learning.
One was the Bible is God's Word, that you can trust it, and that there's archaeology for it, and it actually has come forth. It's got the message of the gospel, the good news, of who God is. what Jesus did for us. And that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. And I think that's something that's again explained and discussed in chapter 2.
For eternal life, not just overcoming. And that there is no difference between salvation and eternal life. You were talking about resurrection, and we kind of think, well, that's what Jesus did for everybody. Right. But we have to do the rest for our eternal life.
Yes. And um So you've covered that. And let me just look here real quickly. I apologize for this. Um You had an interesting experience with a psychiatrist who told you to forgive your parents.
Well, yes, my mom became Um My leaving my departure from the Mormon church affected her mental. Help. And so she was seeing a psychiatrist, a Mormon psychiatrist, who was a wonderful man, to help just help her process through that. And Or psychologist, I don't know which he was.
So, anyway, but he asked to see me.
So that he could better treat her. And so I went and saw him, and he asked me my story.
So I just shared with him my version of the story. And he said, Lisa, nobody was ever designed to endure what you've been through with your parents the last five months, but you're one of the most psychologically healthy people in my office. And I was like, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Like, just all things, Jesus. Which I really do think it was Jesus.
You know, he just. When Jesus is at the center, there's a grounding that is unexplainable. And so, After that, he said, Well, there's nothing. He said, Thank you for coming in. Let's work with forgiveness because there are.
Ben Places in your relationship with your parents where it would be important for you to forgive. Then I said, I have forgiven them. And he looked back and he said, Well, let's process that a little.
So after about five minutes, he said, Wow, you have forgiven them. And I think what I'd grown up with is there was no concept of forgiveness without work. I had to even work for forgiveness. And so when he was so shocked that I'd forgiven them, that I could keep forgiving and forgiving with all these conversations we were having that were very painful and hurtful. And I'm not saying it's just one-sided, but what was On my end, um He was pretty surprised by that.
And About 18 months later, before I moved, To Orlando with my husband Dennis. I was driving with my mom to Lake Pal, and she said, You know, I've been wanting to share with you for a long time. Maybe it was only a year later. When I went back and saw the doctor after he met with you, he told my mom, and dad, he said, you know, In my practice, I've never encountered somebody so committed to her family and so committed to Jesus Christ. And you're trying, you need to just let her walk the path she's walking.
So that was pretty remarkable. Yeah, did that comfort moment all? It did. She realized. She's It helped her see a different vision of this story we're living.
It was hard. It's still, you know, it's devastating. For Mormon parents.
Well, we break up the eternal family. Right. They love you. You can tell you're a close-knit, wonderful family. They've been there for you, supported you through your sports and your piano and all those things that you've done over your life and they're afraid they've lost you to outer darkness.
Yes. And it's hard for them. to understand that I don't know what I would have happened if my kids had come to me. As the parent before I came out, and they came to me and said that, it would have hurt because I wouldn't have realized they'd broken that. Um Maternal family.
Yeah. Yes. That's very devastating.
So, where are your now? Your mom has gone to with you to church in in Orlando. Are things any better that way? Oh, I think, yeah, two years was pretty tumultuous for all of us. And then when we moved to Orlando...
Well, if you'd like to listen to the entirety of this message, just go to YouTube and go to XMormon Files number 363. And look for the name Lisa Brockman, part three. That's what you've been listening to today on Passion for Christ. I hope that as you've listened to Lisa share her story, her part of her testimony, you'll just gain a better insight as to What takes place in some people's lives when they come out of the Mormon church. In this case, Lisa didn't go into the.
the the way that she Learned about the true gospel and learned about what it means to put your faith and trust in Christ alone as your Savior. But nonetheless, you can go back and you can find more of these interviews with Earl Erskine, who was a former bishop in the Mormon Church. And so it's again, it's ex-Mormon files on YouTube. Let me just say: if you have an interest in sending a mission team to Utah, I am in the process of really trying to ramp that up for 2027. And so if you have any interest at all, just know that I would be so happy to come out to your church.
your college group in particular to Christian College, to lineup trips. where I would spend about five hours with your team. And then we do two hours of planning, and we put together a week-long trip of outreach, evangelism, and learning, and hearing from former Mormons here in Utah. And just doing a great work here, helps to support local churches here in Utah. And we have our property where we could spend some time reflecting on what God is doing here in Utah and so forth.
And so, our little Bible history museum here, and just a lot of great things we can do.
So, I'd be glad to send you some materials that will help you reach your Mormon friends, neighbors, and relatives with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hope to hear from you soon. With that, we'll See you again next time, right here on this good station here for another edition of Passion for Christ. Before we sign off for today, please know that all of us here at Utah Partnerships for Christ appreciate your prayers and support. We are also available to do Zoom call workshops or personal coaching on reaching Mormons for Christ.
Contact us today at upfc.org. That's upfc.org. Thanks so much for joining us on another edition of Passion for Christ.
