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February 10, 2021 8:19 pm
I'm prepared to engage Mormon missionaries would knock on your door. Perhaps the book Mormonism 101 will help Mormonism 101. Published by Baker look at your favorite Christian bookstore .1 examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a perspective view .1 Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism. Our thanks to Adam's rebellion for that musical introduction welcome to this edition of viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry and with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM and this week we are looking at an article that Eric has written and is posted on our website. MRM.org it's an article titled 10 common mistakes Latter Day Saints make when reading the Bible where specifically can they find this article on our website. Eric MRM.org/10 common mistakes 10 with a 10 in-common-mistakes were looking today at point number seven in his piece reading a presupposed doctrine into a verse or passage you start off Eric by citing Jeremiah 15 and this is how it reads before I formed the in the belly I knew the and before thou came us forth out of the womb I sanctified the and I ordained the a profit on to the nations. The little reasons why were siding from the King James as I've explained this week is because the King James is the version of choice that Latter Day Saints read from and so sometimes in a witnessing situation. If I know that's a Bible version that they respect.
I find that it sometimes easier to avoid any unnecessary arguments. So I just go right to that Bible verse that they are supposed to respect words, why use the ESV they might say that's the SB I don't believe it also will that so I don't mind going to the King James I'll read that to them. And so, in this case Jeremiah 15 is talking about what Mormons believe to be the preexistence of all human beings. So what you say about that why I write many Latter Day Saints uses first to support the presupposition by showing how all people lived in God's presence in a preexistence state before they were born into this world.
That's a very important doctrine because that's where all humans had a chance to choose the Savior of the world.
A choice between Jesus and Lucifer and so everybody who is born into this world made that choice of Jesus whereas one third of our brothers and sisters in the spirit world were cast out of heaven for choosing Lucifer in an early Mormonism had another third that were not as valiant as they could have been in this alleged war in heaven and they would be born with a black skin for much of Mormon history. Those who were of African heritage were not allowed to hold the very important priesthood that most other Latter Day Saints males would be able to hold there is a lot connected to this doctrine of the preexistence. Although some things are not is emphasized like they used to be and when we understand that one thing that this verse doesn't seem to do is to tell us that when it comes to the preexistence in Mormonism. It's not just human beings. It's everything in you have a citation from BYU professor Charles Harrell and we cited this book before and that's a book called this is my doctrine. What did Harrell say about this on page 212 he writes a distinctive LDS teaching today regarding preexistence is that all living things.
Humans, animals, plant life, and even the earth itself had a preexistence as spirits. The idea that the trillions upon trillions of insects and noxious weeds have spirits that existed for eons prior their fleeting and seemingly insignificant existence on earth is a curious thought even more astounding is the notion that they will be resurrected and immortal glory at some specified time in the future. The let me ask you how many Latter Day Saints actually know what Harrell is talking about because it is not just humans as you said, it's everything that's a great question because I can't recall in all of my witnessing situations of any Latter Day Saints. Explain that doctrine to me in that way usually built go to Jeremiah 15, and specifically say that this is referring to our personal preexistence as humans but my question that I like to ask is why would you assume that that's what Jeremiah is supporting when we know that the Jews did believe as Christians believe that God, the God of the Bible is an all knowing God, who knows the past, present and future as clearly as we may know the presence in our lives right now. Why would you discount that this may be talking about that foreknowledge that God would obviously have what he says before you came out of the womb I sanctified you or set you apart and I ordained you to be a prophet under the nations. If God is in control of all things and is duly sovereign, as we believe.
Why wouldn't this be speaking of his foreknowledge and the plan that he had for Jeremiah when he was to be born, but in Mormonism you have this elevation of humanity. Men and women are highly esteemed in the LDS church and so they assume by reading that verse that they they knew God just as much as God knew them, but it doesn't say that in this first and in fact Christian theologian, DA Carson, who did not emphasize Mormonism, but he brought this out in his book called exegetical fallacies on page 115.
He said what the Mormons are really doing is appealing to their book the pearl of great price for the content of their doctrine and appealing to the Bible at a verbally ambiguous point and over specifying what the text says in order to claim the Bible's authority to what is he saying, Carson says, well they don't really have anything in the Bible, so they have to take a verse like Jeremiah 15 and there a few other verses as well princes, one in Job and they make that into something that fits their preconceived notions that they get from extra-biblical scripture. The pearl of great price is not part of the Bible we as Christians don't hold to it so they know that just by showing from the pearl of great price that there is a preexistence is not good enough for the Christian, so they're going to have to come up with support from the Bible and it doesn't work because this verse is not saying what the Mormon is saying about preexistence.
So with their in essence doing is they are reading into the passage something that is not there and we would call that ISA Jesus.
I've said it before and the show what I find amazing is Mormons seem to be more apt to read into biblical passages but don't always do that with the book of Mormon passages is all they seem to exegete their own book of Mormon passages in a proper way, not always. I think some of them really fudge when it comes to second Nephi 2523 saved by grace.
After all you can do and some will say what that means. In spite of all you can do even though the text doesn't say that at all. But for the most part they seem to exegete the book of Mormon and doctrine and covenants.
I would say pretty accurately.
I have had Latter Day Saints point to the words of origin who did believe in preexistence. Okay, we do have some cases of church fathers specifically origin but that was not universally accepted by the Christian teachers in the Christian believers and so it is an abnormal view. This is a view that is a minority view greatly minority, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think even origin knew that his speculative theology did not rain above what's clearly taught in Scripture. So I think you would be out of line trying to make it sound as if origin was Orthodox and everything that he said in point number eight you say. Assuming that a passage is referring to all time rather than a specific time in biblical history and the example you give is Amos 37 a verse that we hear often when were talking with Latter Day Saints. It reads, surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealed his secret unto his servants the prophets, and they have used this verse the Latter Day Saints of use.
This verse to prove from this text that we must have latter-day prophets, even to this very day. And this is why they would look at the position of profit in their church as showing that they represent God's design, and they referred to Amos 37 is proof of that.
What would you say that while I it's interesting because the word prophets in the plural is used in the Hebrew and in the LDS church. They have one prophet we have one prophet in the Mormon church and yet this is saying plural now. Some have suggested well all the leaders can be called prophets Sears and revelations, but if you want to be technical about it.
There is only one man who was at the top. The others are a apostles and the two men who are part of the first presidency. Those are counselors to the president or prophet of the church so you can make up whatever you want. But second, this verse is not saying that prophets would always exist, but in the day of Amos is writing he revealed his secrets to these men. The plural prophets. This is what Norm Geisler and Ron Rhodes right this verse should not be interpreted to mean that God will always have a prophet on earth. This passage affirms that God had previously warned the Israelites that judgment would follow disobedience, but they ignored the prophets, and they reference Amos 212 in context then Amos 37 simply points to God's chosen pattern. I'm not engaging in a major action with the Israelites as his judgment without first revealing it to the prophet, and that's in their book when cultus asked on page 87 so okay how would we understand this in the New Testament context, the fact that we have a Bible that has all the necessary warnings we would need for what we believe to be full salvation. Why would we need a human being on the earth to do what Mormons claim their profit does not. And the reason why asset is because let's be honest outside of making a big deal over what the church should be called. Did Russell M Nelson really come up with any new unique doctrines. I don't see them doing that in these latter days, right they usually explain doctrines that have already been around there not coming up with new things. That was more something left to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Well, let's just be honest that when you take a look at their standard works. The Bible, the book of Mormon, the pearl of great price and the doctrine and covenants. You have nothing from the last 100 years so you would think if these men were the prophets who were getting revelation from God, why isn't anything been added to the doctrine and covenants over 100 years and there's nothing as far as the Christian is concerned, we don't need a human being to be our prophet. We have first Timothy 25 says we have one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ and that man is our prophet. According to Hebrews chapter 1 verses one into it says long ago and many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world bill if you had a choice between the modern LDS prophet in Jesus to be your prophet. Who would you choose. I think hands to how that would go with Jesus because the LDS prophets don't have a history of consistency which tells me they're not speaking on behalf of God. Otherwise there would be a consistency I don't find many Latter Day Saints today running into a lot of the things that Brigham Young taught. In fact, many of them want to get away from Brigham Young as much as possible because Brigham Young said a lot of silly things. Unfortunately, people look to him as being a prophet, and sadly, believing him believed air, something that the Mormon church tells your people today is impossible to do when they say that God will not allow the prophet to lead the people astray yet. Certainly in the grand scheme of things that had been the case when we look at some of the teachings of the early years in the LDS church.
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