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December 14, 2020 8:11 pm
When one examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when warming is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism Mormonism and the virgin birth, welcome to the submission of viewpoint on Mormonism under host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Erin shuffle all of my colleague at MRM and Aaron. We are continuing our discussion, dealing with the incarnation of Jesus. The differences between how Mormon leaders have described this this event and how Christians have historically understood it. Today we want to look at the opinion of some of the Mormon apologists, particularly one in talking about that we we should mention to our listeners that even though there are apologists that will tend to deny this doctrine on what they call unofficial basis or what they would say is not a doctrine.
Some of them actually are sympathetic to it when she talked right.
It's important that that listeners understand that were not just point out one 'crazy old Brigham Young in the in the attic and you know holding against Mormonism forevermore is not nearly. That's not the limited scope of the evidence you were talking about times Mormon leaders have taught this and it's something that modern Mormon apologists toyed with it to some degree as an acceptable or tolerable doctrine.
There's a Mormon apologist.
If you could say she could say among us that you had a favorite Mormon apologist might would be Kevin Barney. He works with fair and I consider him in many ways a respectable guy. I like a lot of what he writes because it's asset degree of honesty the other morning apologists don't exhibit and he seems to be really, really, most astute with history. He writes that quote and in a in a tightening post titled the sexual generation of Jesus. He writes quote my usual tack. When asked about it and I should I should review for listeners. Really quick. Were talking about this issue that Mormon leaders have essentially taught that God the father had sexual relations with Mary in order to conceive Jesus. It's become more of a minority view today among members sensitive to the floating marriage significance strain of belief is not openly talk about let me interrupt you for a minute you say it's a minority view of a lot of members. Do you think it's more because they just haven't read about it and they've never heard about it before. Yes or it's just that they've read it and rejected it. The first, not the second.
It's that many haven't even heard about it and like you said earlier, even when they do hear about it because of their worldview. They find it very acceptable and very tolerable. Often, not always. Yet because I have found examples that I have talked with Mormons and they've never heard about this before and immediately they're usually appalled that I would even make up such a horrible lie about their own leaders when it really, I'm just quoting their own leaders. That's all I'm doing. But then when they seem to find out that that's exactly what their leaders taught that seems to make it okay for them, which just boggles my mind. I think you literally can you can chart out conversations we've had with Mormons in two minutes. A Mormons go a Mormon goes from finding the. The idea is reprehensible to finding the idea is quite pleasing and acceptable on the idea that God the father had sexual relations with Mary to conceive. Jesus fits in many ways with the larger Mormon worldview that God the father has a body of sexual sorry of the flesh and bones that he is a sexual being that he is a gender that heavenly father and mother have distinct genders and gender roles, and that that's an eternal thing and that if you saw heavenly father. He looked like a man just like you and that miracles that's what Joseph Smith said that God the father does not have the ability and Mormonism. To make matter out of nothing to him in all of his miracles are basically like working with existing materials anyway so Kevin Barney writes my usual tack.
When asked about it is to point out the idea that it is not now and never was doctrine. That's where we will arise.
It was a speculation. He says it is not binding on anyone. In fact, my impression it is that it has become very much a more minority view in the church and that most Mormons do not accept this characterization of the physical generation of the moral Jesus. I will confess, however, Kevin Barney writes on that. I actually like the idea. Maybe it is because I have a streak of old-fashioned Mormonism somewhere inside me but I find it appealing on several levels.
First, there is a certain naturalism to the idea.
I presume that the I presume the moral Jesus had 46 chromosomes in that 23 came from Mary, but where did the other treat 23 come from as a Mormon. I'm not big on the idea that they were created X knee hello for the specific purpose X knee hello means created from nothing. I like being able to say that Jesus really did have a father not in a metaphorical sense only, but in a physical sense. He really was the son of God for Kevin Barney.
The idea that God the father has sexual relations with Mary insert strengthens that idea quoting on. I also find it fascinating that people find this people see this idea has been totally offensive to me. That speaks not only to our radically different conception of God and man as being of the same species are little literalist notion of divine paternalism and a radical materialism, but also to our Puritan heritage. If it is so disgusting to suggest that God sired a son by by sexual intercourse. Why, I wonder did God ordained that to be the natural method by which we conceive our children is that just some sort of cosmic joke does God sit in younger heavens look down on his creatures and laugh at the disgusting and dirty and ridiculous actions.
Isn't it possible that if God ordained sexual intercourse is the means by which we create children that is divinely appointed and not disgusting or dirty at all.
I freely concede that the old-fashioned Mormon speculators did not think all the way through this idea, and there are some theological loose ends to be sure, but I'm curious. Does anyone else here find this kind like this old notion or is it just Mormon materialism run amok that ending the quote from Kevin Barney. He is a respectable intellectual defender of the Mormon faith. So at this point we should probably interject one of the reasons why we as Bible believing Christians have a very's serious disagreement with this notion is because of who Mary is in the Mormon scheme of things, she just isn't a created human. She is also an Mormonism considered the literal offspring of God the father himself, we would all be the literal children of God. Mary would be one of the literal children of God. So in essence, the way we picture this, in the grand scheme of things is here we have a God who has a body of flesh and bones coming down and having a physical relationship with his own daughter that becomes very disturbed and incestuous union that I've actually read were so Mormons can't understand why we have a problem with that and that I think you have the bigger issue for me is that like like Kevin himself said the issue is the view of the nature of God and Mormonism all spirit is just a finer form of matter and that God himself is of the human species. When we think of this son ship of Jesus output. This way the method of the incarnation of Jesus matters because of the meaning of the incarnation of Jesus.
The meaning of the incarnation is that the eternal son of God. This second person of the Trinity, who has always been God always forever. More will be he takes on 100% human nature is not a hybrid God man.
He is a fool 100% God and 100% human, so he he has two natures distinct but there still there is part of his being in person. Now that that's just the son of God is hundred percent hundred percent God and at the incarnation he wasn't changing his nature, he was adding the nature the method of the incarnation, the miraculous conception of Jesus within Mary there being zero male participation really speaks to the fact that this is God in the flesh. It was God's way of sort of announcing to the world that this is national and it points to the pit that the deity and the authority of Jesus just Bruce McConkie calls the Mormon Jesus a demigod because he sort of a hybrid God, man is very different. So the other thing I think we should respond to his Kevin Barney's notion that the reason we don't like the idea that God the father had sexual relations with Mary is because we have a sort of puritanical idea that sexes of dirty, disgusting, and I would respond by saying no, it's not because of that, this God-given thing called sex is is a it's a good thing with the marriage. It's up it's a beautiful thing but we don't see God the father as essentially human were not pagans were not meshing the idea of God and man so much that we think that it's not even possible for him to have sex relations right now Christianity.
We believe that God is transcendent. He is unlike his creation and Mormonism of course they would say that we as humans are actually of the same species as God.
He just seems to have bigger, more advanced head start on us right later.
Rick and I been reading a bunch of quotes from Mormon leaders who have taught that God the father had had sex relations with Mary, I just wanted to point this quoting craft Kevin Barney out though because I want people realize this is is not as though we just would've came out we got off the reservation or we we just have come out from left field resort of making this up, this isn't some just sort of chestnut sort of hidden Jim that we found the general discourses. This is a whole tradition of teaching among members and this is something that modern Mormon apologists. Still, we wouldn't even be having to talk about this if it was a part of the traditional teachings of the Mormon leadership and I think that needs to be stressed. This isn't just a isolated quote from like you say Brigham Young or someone like that these these are numerous Mormon leaders who have said basically the same way, using a few different words, but it still comes out the same.
If you were to read the statements you would draw the conclusion that this sounds very clearly like they are saying that here is the Mormon God who has a body of flesh and bones coming down and having a physical relationship with Mary, and yet how many times when we bring this up we get accused of taking an innocent statement of fact fare the same group that Kevin Barney's with put out a statement same. Typically, critics either take statements from non-authoritative books were taken innocent phrase and make it sound like it says something that doesn't watch what I just want to point out this Barney quote that this is a respectable Mormon intellectual defender of the of the Mormon faith. And he's from, he's just confirming what we've been saying for decades that the Mormon leaders taught is the fact the very fact that he is even willing to speculate on something like that should tip you off that something's wrong here, and definitely when we look at what the Bible actually has to say about Jesus is incarnation, and that we compare it with the teachings what Mormon leaders have said about it. We find that there is in fact a distinct difference separating us that this is not at all a similarity that we share even though they may use the same phrase virgin birth. Thank you for listening. If you would like more information regarding this research ministry.
We encourage you to visit our website www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter Mormonism research. We hope you'll join us again as we look at another viewpoint is trying to understand the doctrines of our Latter Day Saints friends, family members and coworkers can be very difficult to know what to believe in his resource titled in their own words a collection of name and quotations Mormonism research ministries Bill McKeever compile some of the very best Mormon quotations that will help you better understand when LDS leaders and scholars have seen on such issues as atonement, exultation and preexistence written in an encyclopedic format in their own provides quotes on literally dozens of issues alphabetically listed for quick reference that can be found in a matter of seconds.
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