Viewpoint on Mormonism, the program that examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from a Biblical perspective. Welcome to this edition of Viewpoint on Mormonism.
I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director of Mormonism Research Ministry, and this week I have been talking to a good friend of mine, Marv Cowen. Marv is with Missions Door, and as I've mentioned before, their website is utahchristianpub.com. If you want Marv's website, utahchristianpub.com, and as I mentioned earlier, Marv is willing to answer any questions that you may have, you can write him directly at pastormarv80atgmail.com.
That's the number 80, pastormarv80atgmail.com. If you've been listening to our earlier broadcast, Marv has been a missionary to the Mormon people for decades, and I, I guess you could say, studied at his feet in the early years of my study of Mormonism. And he wrote a book called Mormon Claims Answered, which is a very concise book, but has a lot of very basic teachings of Mormonism, comparing the differences between those teachings and what the Bible has to say.
And we've been talking about Marv's conversion. He was raised in the Mormon Church. His mother was a convert to the Mormon Church. Your father was born in the Covenant.
He was raised for a time in Idaho and also in Colorado, but as I said, has served as a missionary to the Mormon people here in Utah for decades. And we've just been talking about some of the experiences that Marv has had over the years. Marv, off air, we were talking about a lot of the things that we have seen happen when it comes to evangelism to the Mormon people, and how there is this idea among many, including some Christian scholars, to think perhaps that the Mormon Church is moving towards a more biblical position. You, I know, have not really been enamored by a lot of this discussion, though I think we would both love to see something like that. We would certainly love to see the Mormon people come to a more biblical understanding, but as a corporation, the Church really is not showing that it's moving in that direction, at least not in an official capacity. No.
Let's talk about that. Should what's going on in Mormonism sway Christians from wanting to share their faith with the Mormon people? Is it just as necessary now as it was, let's say, when you were challenged as a teenager by Christians about what you believed? Yeah, people that are lost are still lost.
Absolutely. And a lot of people who are very religious are lost. Now, back in the early days of my ministry, you could see the difference a little more. Mormonism itself wanted to set itself apart. That's changed in the sense that they're trying to make themselves appear more like evangelicals.
And I talk to so many people who have family members or close friends who are Mormons, and they say, well, they believe in Jesus Christ as Savior. Isn't that the bottom line? And I tell them, no, it's not. It's what Jesus they believe in.
I did that with a couple of guys in California. This was several years ago, but the one was Mormon, the other was an evangelical Christian. And the evangelical said, my friend here believes in Jesus Christ as his Savior, and isn't that the bottom line? And I told him, no, I don't think so.
And he said, it isn't. I said to the Mormon, would you answer some questions for me? And he said, yes. I said, well, tell me about the Jesus you believe in.
Is he the literal son of a father and mother God? And he said, yeah. I said, is he the spirit brother of Lucifer as well as all the rest of us in that pre-mortal world that Mormonism talks about? He said, yeah. I said, did he become a God by keeping the same laws and orders of the gospel through which you can become a God? Again, he said, yes. And I said, well, I appreciate you answering my questions, but I have to tell you that Jesus you've just described can't be found in the Bible, and it's the Jesus of the Bible who said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. He said, well, there's only one Jesus.
And I said, oh, no. According to the Bible, there's a possibility of another Jesus. 2 Corinthians 11, verse 4 warned the Corinthians about the possibility. They were so fickle in their thinking that they could be deceived by somebody preaching another Jesus.
So we had a good conversation, but I think that's still the problem. I had some people just a few days ago say, well, my son's going to marry a Mormon lady and she believes in Jesus Christ as her Savior. That's the most important thing. Well, I said, it's important, but it's more important to know what Jesus she believes in. And is Jesus enough? Like I asked one of the Mormons I was talking to, I said, I believe in Jesus Christ as the one and only mediator between God and men. And my faith is in him and him alone. If I believe that and reject Mormonism, can I have God's best?
No. Yeah, you see, asking questions like that gets to the meat of it. And unfortunately, a lot of Christians who are not trained in how to ask those questions allow that opportunity to slip by them, where by simply asking those questions that you just asked are going to show that we're talking about something very, very different here. You're talking about the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. And they're saying, no, Jesus isn't enough.
We have to add something to what he did. That's exactly what one missionary said. You can't know Jesus apart from Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is the one that revealed. So you're telling me there's two mediators. The Bible says there's only one.
Well, it would seem if they're going to be consistent, they would have to admit that. And of course, if a Mormon hopes to get the best that their God has for them, Joseph Smith has to be part of the equation. I mean, their own publications have said you have to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God if you want to get the approval of God the Father. You would think those statements would cause a little bit of shock among many Latter-day Saints. Oftentimes I find that the Christian who doesn't see the problem that you and I see with Mormonism, it's usually because they really haven't taken the time to do some homework in this. They're probably only getting their information from their Mormon neighbor, who is not going to go out of their way, probably, to delve into a lot of these things that certainly separate us. As you said, and you said it quite appropriately, the Mormon Church today is trying more to cozy up to evangelicals rather than show the difference between us. It's not like years gone by where Mormonism has certainly always had the majority when it comes to religious faiths in Utah where they wanted to make sure you understood they were very different than everybody else.
And you raise a good point. Why do they want to equate themselves more with us as evangelicals? They certainly don't want anything to do with the fundamentalist Mormons who believe in polygamy today, and you would think they have more in common with them than they do with us.
So why is that? Well, it's easier to make converts that way. They found that out. Going back to the 1961 handbook the missionaries used, it was very adversarial. And now they emphasize the similarities, and they've made a whole lot more converts.
But I said when they started doing that, that's a double-edged sword. It's not only going to confuse Mormons, but Christians. I've talked to some Mormons who seem to think they're very similar to evangelicals.
Well, they're really not. The Jesus I believe in is the one that saves to the uttermost. The Jesus of Mormonism is a partial Savior.
He does part of it, but we've got to do part. And leaders in the Mormon Church have made that very clear. They didn't even hide that fact many years ago. There are so many things that they have said on this subject showing that there are a lot of things that the individual member has to do if they hope to receive that godhood that you had hoped to receive when you were a young teenager. I think when a Christian challenges them on that and asks the good questions, okay, if that's what you want to be, are you doing everything you need to do in order to get what you want to be? If they're honest, they have to admit they're not. No. Nobody knows that they've achieved perfection yet. I had one guy, though, say, well, I've achieved perfection in paying my tithe and my relationship with my wife and so forth. And I said, but that's not everything. No.
No. And have any of us as married men ever achieved perfection in our relationship with our wives? I would have to ask his wife about that because I certainly fall short. Some of them do tend to, I guess you could say, lie to themselves. Self-delusion makes them think that they've done enough. I know I've talked to some who say they've done everything they need to do.
But again, I guess it comes down to knowing the proper questions to ask to get them to finally admit that, well, maybe I'm not as perfect as I think I am. And I think that's very important if we're going to have a meaningful conversation with Latter-day Saints. So evangelism to the Mormon people. Speak to the Christians that are out there wondering, well, is it really all that important? I mean, come on. Like you said, they have a Jesus. Is that all right? A lot of Christians seem to think that's enough. It doesn't matter what you think about them, just as long as you say you have them. Well, if they believe the Bible, they believe in missions, they believe in reaching the lost, I find that there are some Christians who think, yeah, we need to send missionaries to Africa or some of these other foreign countries, but people in America?
No, they don't need it. America is basically a Christian nation. We all believe in Christ. Well, that's changing quickly, isn't it? It sure is.
We're going to be the minority if things don't change. I saw a YouTube video, I think it was here a while back, a guy asking on the street, who is Jesus? And the crazy answers he got was very revealing. We live in almost a post-Christian nation.
Oh yeah, I would say so. It's amazing how little understanding many people have for what Christians believe. And sadly, because our culture is going in such a, well, I think an immoral direction, and because as Christians we are supposed to stand for God's morality, that becomes a threat to a lot of them, and so we're going to be looked at as haters, that's the common term they use, and I don't think they really understand why God has that type of a lifestyle set out for his people. It's actually to protect them. It's not to rain on their parade. That, I think, is going to be a huge problem in years to come. And another reason why I think Christians need to be grounded in what they believe, and are willing and able to defend it properly, is obviously those young Christians that you were talking to just ask some simple questions.
That's all it takes. And sometimes that's what God uses to start getting the Mormon to start thinking about it. Any last thoughts, Marv? Well, one of the things that I think is terribly important is that Christians recognize the difference. Now, you don't need to be a scholar on Mormonism, but like you say, asking a few pertinent questions is very important. Not to be antagonistic, but to simply show the love of Christ that you're asking these questions because you care where people are going to spend eternity. It's either with Christ or without. We're either going to be with him, or we're going to be eternally separated from him. That's a horrible thought. You know, living here in Utah, Mormons, for the most part, are great people. They try very hard to be very good people, and yet it's not moralism that saves you.
It's only being forgiven by the blood of Christ. We've been talking with Marv Cowen, who's with Missions Door. You want to check out his website, it's utahchristianpub.com, and if you'd like to contact Marv personally, it's pastormarv80 at gmail.com, and that's the number 80. Marv, I'm glad we were able to do this, and as I said, been wanting to do this for a long, long time because you have such a wealth of information that you can share, and I hope people will utilize your knowledge on this subject. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thank you.
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