should left behind theology be left behind. We don't think so. It promises our blessed hope. What is the marriage supper of the Lamb? Who's the bride?
And when and where does it take place? It shouldn't surprise us that there is some controversy in who the bride is. The bride is generally considered to be the church in Christian theology. Welcome to Understanding the Times Radio, the programming founded by Jan Markell and brought to you by Olive Tree Ministries. Today, radio hosts Pastor Josh Schwartz and Ken Michael speak with author and apologist Jonathan Brentner.
Dispensationalism is often called left behind theology. and many are trying to silence the theological truth it holds. Theologically speaking, only futurism makes sense when we read the Bible. And premillennial dispensationalism will always lead to the glorious hope of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Here is today's programming.
Welcome to Understanding the Times. I'm Ken Michael, along with my co-host, Pastor Josh Schwartz. And this week, we'd like to welcome back to the program author and apologist Jonathan Brentner. And just as a reminder, you can get his new book, Invitation to a Lavish Feast, on our website, olivetreeviews.org. Jonathan, we'd like to welcome you back to the program.
Thank you for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about my passions with you. It's our pleasure.
So, Jonathan, real quick, just give us a quick overview of your book and why you wrote it.
Okay, my book is called Invitation to a Lavish Feast. And I really wrote it to encourage believers to let them know that we have a solid biblical foundation to what we believe as far as the pre-tribulation rapture. And a person just this past week mentioned that, well, the views of the rapture are people's best guesses as to what it might be. And I thought, oh no, would the Lord lead us, leave us with just our best guesses as to where we're going to spend the tribulation period? I think not.
And so, what I did was, I tried to write a book. that really showed The arguments in favor of premillennialism and how they lead to the pre-tribulation rapture, and the best way that I could do it. It's also a very practical book. I show why it matters.
So I not only present um the theology you might say of of Future things, but I also show why it's so important to us as believers to believe it. Yeah, Josh, and there's a lot of confusion out there about not only a dispensational view of the rapture, but the timing. We just went through the Feast of the Trumpets and all that stuff.
So, why don't you enlighten us a little bit on why it's so important to talk about the rapture itself? Yeah, I think it's extremely important. And, Jonathan, thank you for your ministry and thank you for writing this book. It is very helpful. And I hope to kind of dive into this a bit more in our conversation today, but truly, it's so important to have an understanding of all these things because they are our blessed hope.
That's what Paul calls them. And we need to have hope in dark days. We need to have hope in times that are chaotic. And the days in which we live are dark and chaotic.
So, Again, very important topic that I think many people are going to benefit from hearing this, listening to this, and even reading your book.
So, Jonathan, as we dive into this conversation, I just want to open it up first and foremost to the broader topic of dispensationalism.
So, would you define yourself as a dispensationalist, and if so, why? I do. I am a dispensationalist, and I believe that there is a future for the nation of Israel, that the Lord is going to restore it. And of course, I believe. that the words of scripture support it but in particular daniel Oh.
Prophecy of the 70 weeks, and I dive into that a little bit in my book, Invitation to Lavishly, showing why the 70th week has not yet been fulfilled, it still awaits a future fulfillment because. Uh Daniel tells us that in the last week, the 70th week, Antichrist, or this prince that is coming, who we define is the beast or the Antichrist. is going to defile the temple. Yeah. That has not happened in history when Jesus um delivered um his all of the discourse In Matthew 24, 15, he said it was still a future event.
Later, Paul, when he was writing the second book to the Thessalonians in chapter 2, said that when the Lord returns, he's going to kill this person, this man of lawlessness, who defiles the temple. And so, This event in Daniel's 70th week had not happened during Jesus' lifetime. It had not happened when Paul wrote to the To the Thessalonians, and ever since then, there's been no time when Jesus has returned and destroyed someone who was defiling the temple in Jerusalem. Yeah, so just historically speaking, these things haven't taken place yet.
So futurism, this idea that there is a future and all these things will be fulfilled in the future, makes the most sense scripturally, logically, historically.
So Why would you say that the dispensational hermeneutic, if you will, literal, grammatical, historical, hermeneutic or interpretive method, why would you say it's trustworthy? The first thing that comes to my mind Is Tucker Carlson? This past week or so, he described. Believers who believe in a literal interpretation of scripture as having a brain virus. And it all stems from.
The idea of replacement theology, covenant theology, which teaches that there is no future for the nation of Israel. And even though, you know, I'm not saying that all of the people who Affirm that theology are anti-Semitic or opposed to Jews, such as Tucker Carlson exposes on his interview that he had. But it does cause many to adopt that. And throughout church history, that has been the case. You think of the The Spanish Inquisition, which I reference also in the book and my story about Manasseh ben Israel, a fascinating story.
Anyways, He was a victim of the Spanish Inquisition, in which The church believing that it was God's kingdom on the earth. Persecuted not only Protestants but also. the Jewish people, it actually forced up as many as one hundred thousand Jews to leave Spain at that time, among whom was Manasseh ben Israel.
So it's very important that That we affirm despensationalist just because it fits best with what the words of scripture say. Yeah, Josh, we're seeing the narrative being flipped right now. Yeah. Where those that call themselves Christians, and in this case, Tucker, actually said, I despise them more than anyone else on the planet. And that's dispensationalism.
And I don't understand that. You can disagree with that. That's fine. But to say that you actually despise that is. I can't wrap my brain around that.
Also, I think last year he had John Rich on, and they just completely tried to destroy the pre-tribulation rapture.
So, Jonathan. Um why would you or we have a pre-tribulation view of what's coming, the Blessed Hope. Um I'm debasseth with the words of Scripture. Tell us, and that's one of the emphasis on my book, Lavish Feast, is that. You know, I start with the book of Proverbs.
It shows just the emphasis, I should say, and show the tie between wisdom to God's wisdom. In the words of scripture. The words of scripture reveal that. And for a long time I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture. It actually started when I was 10 years old.
When my father tragically died suddenly of a heart attack. And before that, some missionary friends of mine had Had told me about the Lord's return and had given me a track and described the order of events: the rapture, the tribulation, Jesus' return, the millennium, and the eternal state. And so when my father died, um one of the one of the ways that the lord consoled me even at the age of 10 was by bringing me to first thessalonians 4 16 and And I looked at that. at that passage of meeting the Lord in the air, and I thought, aha, somehow the Lord said that's when you're going to see your dad again. And that gave me comfort.
And it's the words of Scripture that provide us with that assurance that That, yes, the rapture will happen before the tribulation period.
Now, I know you've written quite a lot on this topic, and one area that I think is so often misunderstood is the idea that the rapture, and namely just the pre-trib rapture, is a secret rapture.
Now, will the rapture of the church before the tribulation period be a secret to those who are dwelling on earth? Um no it will not. It is a private event in that it's just for us as New Testament saints and the Lord. But the entire world will feel its impact, particularly in nations such as America, where there are a great number of. Of believers.
I believe they'll definitely feel its impact. Yeah. I believe the world is already preparing excuses for what happened.
So it won't be a secret that no one will notice. Everyone will will notice well, most everyone will notice it in um the elite of the world will be scrambling to explain why it happened.
Now, Jonathan, as we continue through this, these are scary things and these are hard things for our people to wrap their minds around.
So the question is How? How do I personally, how do the people listening personally prepare for the rapture? By putting your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And it's interesting that through the book of John, Jesus continually, repeatedly, I should say, said, You know, believe on me and you will have eternal life. And we see this.
You see this theme carried out through the Pauline epistles, and especially in Ephesians 2:1 to 10. Where you know, we put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and He saves us. It's not of works lest anyone should boast, but it's completely by Him. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me.
He is the way. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the path to eternal life. And those who believe on him, who trust his word, who trust what he says, who confess him with their mouth, They will be saved without exception. And so the Lord will take all those who know Him as their Savior to.
To heaven to those who are truly born again. Yeah, and I think it's such an important passage that you quoted there in John 14. Let me just read it for those who are listening. It says, John 14, 1, let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God.
There it is. Believe in God. Believe also in me, Jesus says. Verse 2, In my father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, I would have told, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and I will take you to myself, that where I am, you may be also. This is the encouragement, Ken. Compelling verse. Exactly. We place our faith in Jesus.
We will be with Jesus. He is not going to leave us or abandon us. And so with a here and now, we live lives that are faithful testimonies to him. Absolutely. Our guest is Jonathan Brentner.
His new book, Invitation to a Lavish Feast. You can get it at olivetreeviews.org. Jonathan, A question for you. Why are you a premillennial? And if so, why is there such a pushback against this theology?
Okay, one of the things that I um Talk about in my book Leverage Fees is there are basically three reasons why I am I believe in premillennialism that is The fact that Jesus is coming back before his thousand-year reign, that he's going to reign for a thousand years. Over a kingdom that will include a restored Israel, and then the eternal state happens after that. Anyways, The first one is the words of scripture, which we've already talked about. You know, the words of scripture are really the foundation. And then, secondly, as I describe in the book, Um it's It's all about Jesus.
I believe that. The premillennial Viewpoint of things to come, that order of event that Jesus comes back with this glorious return that. Um the book of Revelation in chapter 19 describes Only premillennialism does justice to that passage, to the glory that it ascribes to the Lord Jesus. And it's interesting, Paul David Tripp calls the Bible as the grand story of our Lord Jesus Christ. And I would add to it that the book of Revelation is the grand finale to that.
A story and second coming is really the climax of it. When you think of You know, the people who ascribe to replacement theology, or there is, you know, they have this end-of-the-world wrap-up of Jesus' return. For me, that doesn't do any justice to what Paul. John wrote about in Revelation 19 and 20. And then you have the Preterists who believe that.
The Lord came back in 80:70. That is far, far, far, far away from what John describes as the Lord's second coming. And then the dominion. People among us who say that the church is going to bring in the millennium and Jesus comes back afterwards to inspect what the church has already done. Neither of those.
Few points, except for premillennialism, honors the Lord Jesus Christ, and I point out that. That really, it's Colossians 1:15 to 20 that really solidifies my belief in premillennialism because. It exalts Jesus at his preeminence which Which shows forth throughout the entire book. of Revelation. Then lastly, I believe is God's character.
And we see this in Ezekiel 36, where God says, you know, he tells. Through you know, through the prophet Ezekiel, he's telling Israel, he says, It's not because of your behavior that I'm going to restore you someday, but it's because of my holiness, the Lord speaking that I'm going to restore Israel.
So it's those three things that. that that make me a premillennialist. Yeah, Josh. People take his first coming literally, but yet they take his second coming allegorically. Like, no, there isn't a literal thousand years.
It just blows my mind. Yeah, it is mind-blowing. And Jonathan, your three passages that you went to there with Revelation 19 and 20, Ezekiel 36 and Colossians 1 are just so good to deal with the reality that God is going to bring his plan to fruition in his timing according to his will. Ezekiel 36 shows us that it is for God's sake that he's doing this. Colossians 1 shows us that Jesus is worth it and he is worthy because he is the.
the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One who God created all things through and has all dominion. And then we see that all carried perfectly together, like you pointed out in Revelation 19 and 20, the two passages or two chapters really where it all comes to fruition.
So thank you for being so concise there with the Word of God and pointing everyone back to it. We believe in premillennialism because that's what the Bible teaches. And preterism and dominionism, also known as amillennialism and postmillennialism, make no sense in accordance with any of the passages of scripture that you just brought forth.
So thanks for being so clear there. Yeah Jonathan, premillennialism deals with the return of Christ before the millennial reign.
So many people don't even study the millennium. What are we going to be doing for the thousand years while Jesus is ruling and reigning on the earth? That's a very good question. Of course, You know, the Bible refers to us as reigning with Christ during this time, so that'll definitely be a part of it. And in the book that I wrote with Terry James called Hereafter, you know, we go into a little bit more of what.
Thing of what might be going on during the tribulation. There will be, you know, at the beginning of the tribulation. The population of the world would be rather small, I believe. It consists of the believers who have somehow survived the tribulation. And so, There will be a time of waiting.
The cities that we may be reigning over, if that's what the Lord has for us, may not even exist for thought for hundreds of years. But I think believe the Lord will keep us busy. I believe we'll spend time in the new Jerusalem. We'll we'll commute back and forth to the earth. And Terry and I describe that in our book hereafter.
And and also, you know, I think we'll just enjoy our heavenly home. Um You know, I it previously in my life I loved playing the trombone. And I still do, and I really cannot do it right now because of certain issues, but. You know, I kind of hope that I'll be able to play my trombone in eternity, during the millennium, even, when I'm not doing what assignments that the Lord has for me. But we don't know.
I believe that the Lord will keep us busy. There will be things for us to do. There will be downtime when we could just enjoy The millennial world, enjoy our new homes and have it, and enjoy. The new life that God has given to us. Yeah, absolutely.
So, Jonathan, before this glorious time we get to spend with the Lord, we talk to people, I'm sure you talk to people all the time, that think we're going to bring on this golden age right now, right here and now. You even hear the president talk about we're entering a new golden age, a new time which everything's going to be great, the economy's going to be great, and all of that. Will the saints actually usher in this golden age? And if not, How should we live right now? Oh no, it's impossible.
You look at The state of the church right now. And you know, it's even on some of his best days in the best places, There's so much division, so much difference of teaching, so much lack of love going on that no, the church is not going to do it, and the Bible never says that it's going to do it. It's very clear that the Lord Jesus is going to bring in his millennial reign, and those who say otherwise are basing their hope. On Um, on what they claim is additional revelation to the word of God, which We believe the scriptures are closed as far as the canon of scriptures goes. You know, the Lord does speak to us as believers, He does guide us, but the authoritative word of God.
ended with the book of Revelation. As far as us living now, we just live in expectation. Of when he's going to come, as Philippians 3:20 to 21 talk about, you know, we realize that our citizenship is not. Citizenship is in heaven, not on earth. We're looking forward to.
To Jesus appearing, we're eagerly awaiting that. And the Greek there is a very intense form of a very excited, eager anticipation of something. When Jesus is going to come, He's going to change our lowly bodies, And to glorious ones like His. And the older I get, the more I realize just how lowly my body is, and how much I'm looking forward to having a body just like His.
Now, Jonathan, you answered so well the question about how to live. It's truly that. It's that eager anticipation. We are to be living as salt and light in a tasteless and dark world. And it reminds me, you quoted Philippians 3.
It reminds me of Philippians 4, where Paul says, finally, brothers, verse 8, Philippians 4, 8. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there's any excellence, if there's anything worthy of praise, think about these things. We are to be living faithfully. He continues on in verse 9. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me.
Practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you. We are to be good stewards. We are to live righteous lives in the midst of a dark and dying world.
So, thank you for pointing that out.
Now, I think we have one more topic that would be very pertinent to cover, and that's the. Topic of the marriage supper of the lamb.
So for those who might not be familiar, Jonathan, can you just give us an introduction of what in the world is the marriage supper of the Lamb? Revelation 19. Um I believe eight verses eight to ten, I believe, describe Describe this event that's called the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And we, as believers, will be dressed in fine linen, which describes our righteous deeds, which really only the Lord could bring about in our lives. But it's these righteous deeds, this linen that we're clothed in.
And it seems to be a time of celebration after we've gone through the The judgment seat of Christ that we have this time with all believers, and what a celebration it will be because. Can you imagine? All the believers of all the ages being together in one place. It's just, it's difficult to really picture. But that's really an introduction to what it is, and it's something that happens just before we return with the Lord Jesus with Him at His Second Coming.
So you believe this is going to take place After the rapture, when we're in heaven with the Lord, there are others that think it's when we return, but. Who will be there at this event then? Who who's going to take part in this Marriage Supper of the Lamb? I believe that is exclusively for New Testament saints, what we call the church that will be raptured. That would be raptured before the tribulation, will have gone through the judgment seat of Christ, who will be there.
And of course, there are different ideas. Talk about the possible involvement of tribulation saints who won't yet be in their resurrected bodies but will be in heaven. You know, will they be participating? I don't know. There are very, there are some very Respected teachers who believe that.
The Mary's Supper of the Lamb happens after the second coming, after the second coming, after we return with the Lord to the earth. In our book, Terry, our book, Hereafter, Terry James and I believe that it will happen before the second coming, but there are those who are quite credible who believe it happens afterwards. But we're given such precious little detail of it. We just know that it's going to happen, and that's going to be a great time for us. Yeah, that's a great point.
And I think on these finer points of theology on how and when things are going to work out, there needs to be at times charity because there are people who believe differently of secondary and tertiary matters. And what we have to get to the point of is, yeah, it's going to happen. We might not know exactly how or exactly when, but we know we are going to be there. And it is a beautiful opportunity for us to dine with our Savior and dine with the saints who have come before us, recognizing just how great and glorious Jesus is.
So whether it happens in the intermittent time between the rapture and the second coming, or if it happens after the second coming, I don't think it necessarily is something to divide over. It's something to recognize we get to see Jesus and dine with him. And so praise God for that.
Now As we wrap everything up, Jonathan, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for working through all of these hard topics with such biblical clarity. How could people get in touch with you that are maybe interested in getting your book or learning more about your ministry?
Okay, um the best way is through my my website, which is at jonathanbrittner. dot com and there I have Description of the books that I've written, also my blog. And as you scroll down, you'll see that reference.
So that is the best way to get in touch with me. I also write. A weekly column for nearing midnight on Rapture Ready, so that's another way. And I'm just beginning now to record videos for my YouTube. Um channel and it only has a few that are there, but I hope to be adding more videos to it as I become more comfortable with that medium and learn more about the software.
So buy my my website and my YouTube channel will be the best ways going forward. Awesome. Our guest today has been Jonathan Brentner, author and apologist. His new book, Invitation to a Lavish Feast, you can purchase that at our bookstore at olivetreeviews.org. You can also watch this program commercial free on our website.
Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and OnePlace. Jonathan, we want to thank you for your time today, and God bless you and your ministry. Thank you so much for having me. You're very welcome. And God bless the two of you as you continue to.
To share pertinent themes regarding the times with the audience, you two do are doing a great job. Thank you so much.
Well, thank you. Praise God. Contact us at our website olivetreeviews.org. That's olivetreeviews.org. We get our mail when you write to us at Olive Tree Ministries and Jan Markell, Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota.
Mm-hmm. That's Box 1452 Maple Grove, Minnesota. Yeah. All gifts are tax-deductible. We may not be in the golden age that we hear about today.
But it is on the horizon. we enter it during what is called the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on earth. Find Jonathan Brentner's book, Invitation to a Lavish Feast, in our online store at olivetreeviews.org. In the meantime, we are watching the major players of the world move all things so that events of the last days all fall into place. It's all in Be unto your name Be unto your name.
