Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live. Today's date is March 26, 2026. For the podcasters, and as usual, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 8772-072276.

You can also email me, and that's easy as well. Send an email to info at carm.org, info at CARM. Dot or graphic. and put the subject line radio comment or radio question and All the lines are filled right now, coming in.

So we got some good callers coming in and some good stuff going on.

So let's just jump right in. Let's get to longest waiting now is. Longest is, I'll just do Cole. Cole from Georgia. Cole, welcome.

If you're on the air. Hello, man. How you doing? I'm doing okay, butter. What do you got, man?

What do you got? Oh, okay. Listen, you really didn't answer my question last time.

Okay.

Okay, um now. I'm concerned about the Ten Commandments.

Okay.

I heard Adrian Rogers had a sermon today.

Okay.

And he was talking about the Ten Commandments, you know, put them in the house and You know, and I'm thinking, wait a minute though. It's really not the Ten Commandments if you don't keep all of them.

So, my question to you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait, hold on, you gotta let me finish, Matt.

Okay, we're gonna do this. We're gonna drop you.

So It's still the Ten Commandments, whether you observe them or not. The Ten Commandments' existence is irrelevant of whether or not you do them or have a list on there. And so, if I say hold on, please hold on. Don't tell me what to do on my own radio show. I appreciate it very much.

All right, let's get to Nicholas from Utah. Nicholas, welcome. You're on the air. How's it going? Hey, it's going, man.

What do you got, buddy? Mm. Mm-hmm. Yes. I just kind of continue the conversation from yesterday.

We briefly talked about the efficient cause, proximate cause and then the ultimate cause. We never got to the ultimate cause.

So just to make sure that I was cracking So, Adam being the efficient cause, right? Adam ate the fruit, he's the one who sinned. His actions. Um and she was not forced to do it. than the proximate cause being God So the condition environment in which the efficient cause occurred So God creates the world, made the garden.

place Adam in the garden, establishes guidelines for Adam to remain there. Um God permits or allows that Adam is tempted.

So what is the ultimate cause? The ultimate cause is that what God does as the foundation, provider and creator of all things the universe, the foundation upon which logic occurs, existence occurs, reality is. He is the initial cause of all of those things. And then The events that occur in the universe and down into the individual choices that we make are the eventual. Result of the ultimate beginning that God has granted us.

Okay, so ultimate cause, just meaning that it it's it's what God does.

Okay.

Not necessarily, because God can do things here and in the future. The ultimate cause is the foundation of the event, the ultimate foundation of the event.

so that the universe exists. He created everything. And in light of this, everything that exists proves that the Christian Trinitarian God is true. And I can connect the dots on that. But if something exists and it came into existence, it was caused to exist.

This infinite regression goes back to the ultimate cause. that God Himself is the one beginner of all of it, So he's the ultimate cause, he's the initiator of all events. in our world.

Okay.

Okay.

Um so if It seems like this kind of would tie into the issue then of the problem of evil.

So what would be the best way for me to understand or go about understanding that? And also being able to explain that, because it seems like That's a topic that's been coming up a lot. Over the last year due to paint a little.

Okay.

When someone says evil, You can ask them, depending on the conversation, the context, and time, you can ask them, what is evil? And people have different ideas, but they can have opinions. But opinions don't make something true.

So, if they're going to complain or whine about something that they think is evil. then how do they know it's evil and what is evil? The ultimate cause is in the sense God, in that He is the only one who ever existed from eternity past. He created the angelic realm, He created us. The an angel Lucifer decided to rebel.

he would have had no existence And evil in that sense from him would not have come into existence if God had not created him. But God did not create him evil. God created him good. And so he freely chose to rebel against God, and that's where evil came in.

So evil is the eff or s Satan is the efficient cause of his own evil. But God is the ultimate cause in that He's one who made him. has brought him into existence and gave him the ability to exist and be self aware. And so Excuse me.

So, in that ultimate sense, look at ultimate as way down in the past, down a road you can barely see the beginning of. Ultimate is that, and you're on this road, and where you're at right now, where you're standing, is the proximate condition. Where you are in this road That you're looking back behind, and if you could see a little speck of light as the beginning of all things that God has created. And here you are on this road standing there. That's the condition in which you will act freely.

That road exists only because God has created the beginning of that road. And that road just represents your time, timeline as it goes down. And so in that condition of where you find yourself, you make a choice. And so that choice is completely yours. And so the efficient cause, in one sense, is independent of God's direct action in one sense.

In another sense, it's not, but we'll get into that. And so he's there, you're there, you can't think and choose apart from his ultimate. sustaining you. and giving you life and the ability to exist. But in that, you freely choose to rebel against him, and you are the cause of your own evil, just as Lucifer was the cause of his own evil.

I don't know if that helps anything.

Okay.

Yeah, I I think that I think that helps 'cause that's how I tried to explain it is that to people is that ultimately, it seems like evil came through Adam when he decided to send, because that's where everything bad begins to happen.

Well, I would say that sin entered the world through Adam, Romans 5:12. That's what that says.

Okay.

So here's the thing: when you do this kind of stuff. Try and remain as biblically precise as you can. If you say evil entered the world through him, there's a sense in which that's true. But the Bible says sin entered the world through one man, Adam, Romans 5:12. And so I will quote scripture.

And people will sometimes misrepresent what I say, and I say, No, I didn't say that. Yes, you did. You said evil came in the world. I didn't say that, I said sin entered the world through evil. And they'll say, well, sin is evil.

I say, yes, it is. But Mm-hmm. I go with what the Bible declares as best as I can because God chose the word sin instead of evil for a reason. And I'm going to stick with what he says. And if you find yourself doing that all the time, you'll see that a lot of their objections and stuff fall away because you're going to find they're not representing you correctly and they're not representing scripture correctly.

This happens a great deal. Trust me, I've had. Thousands of hours of experience doing this. And this is what happens. You have to be very precise and slow with them.

Okay.

And define terms.

So it's not so much really the problem of evil, it's just It's it's it's really just understanding what the Bible says about sin. And what what proceeds from SIG.

So there you go. And you can ask questions. You can say, well, the devil sinned, right? Yes. Did God make him?

Did God force him to do it?

Well now. No.

Well, then how is it that why did God permit it? We could have reasons, you know, that sin entered the world from Adam and then the crucifixion occurred, which demonstrates the greatest act of love. We can get into all kinds of stuff. But I get more complicated stuff too about this.

So just ask questions. And one of the things I'll do when I go into a chat room. Is I will just ask questions.

Well, what do you mean by that? How do you define that? If an atheist says, Well, how can you believe in a God who allows so much evil to occur? And I say, And sometimes I'll ask them, Are you doing an external critique or an internal critique? And they'll say, Neither, I'm asking a question.

I'll say, all questions have presuppositions in them. You're presupposing the idea of what evil is in order to ask about it, but what do you define it as? That's one thing. And are you criticizing Christianity from what it is inside by your questioning? Or are you trying to do it from the outside, by your own view?

If it's your own view and your definition of evil, you have no universal standard by which you can say what evil is. Only the Christians can.

So when you even ask the question, you don't even realize that what you're doing is you're presupposing the Christian worldview on the nature of evil that exists inside of the Christian context. This, by definition, then is an internal critique.

So your question presupposes an internal position, internal critique, and the ubiquity of the doctrine of evil as revealed in Scripture in order for your question to even have validity. Because if you say it's not from the Christian worldview, and what you're saying is you're just asking because you're criticizing Christianity from your own perspective, then that's your opinion. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion doesn't mean anything because your opinion doesn't establish universal truth systems. And so, if you're going to go for an external critique, you have to define for me what evil is on a universal basis and justify it as being the right one that we can then use. And if you can't do that.

Well, then why are you bothering me with the question?

Okay.

Makes sense.

Well, I appreciate it, man. I won't take up too much of your time. No, it's okay. This is good stuff. It's one of my favorite things to do, believe it or not, is dialogue with people like this because I've done it hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times.

Just think about this. When someone asks a question, there are presuppositions in the question. You know, the same old thing, you know, why do you, oh, do you still beat your wife? You know. Anne is a false dichotomy.

But they're assuming certain values that you do that, that you are the one guilty already. They have certain assumptions that are always there in a question.

So you could ask, well, why do you believe in the Trinity? The implication could be, we don't know their heart, could be that they're doubting it, or it could be that they're inquiring about it. And you can ask questions. And what I usually do when someone asks me a question, I say, I'd like to answer your question, but I want to know what worldview you have so I can cater my answer to you better. And if they say, you know, you're talking about evil, and they say, well, I'm a Roman Catholic, then I know that they're going to have some relevance to the authority of Scripture.

If it's an atheist, then I know that they're not going to have any submission to the Word of God in the universal. And then, when I answer my question, I'm going to undergird the issue of they don't have the ability to raise any objection. And then, if they want to know what evil is, they have to go to the true and living God, who will tell you that it's that which is contrary to His good and holy will. And teach 'em while you're answering.

Okay.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to learn so I can do that 'cause I definitely fumble a lot.

Well I tell you what. If you want, you can email me at info at carm.org. Give me your phone number, I'll call you. And then when I get on various chat things, I'll call you up and say, come on in, okay? You can listen.

I was actually thinking about that today, so yes, praise God, I'll do that. All right, buddy. Amen. All right, man. God bless.

Okay.

All right, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. One open line, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show.

Next longest waiting is our good friend Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome, buddy. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, um Yeah, I want to ask you today about dispensation. I know a lot of people have different definitions.

of dispensation And that occurred to me when speaking to a friend when he said dispensation, he had a completely different meaning. of the understanding of the Bible, and that meant King James only and that kind of stuff. What exactly is dispensation in your view?

Well, there's been different views inside of dispensationalism, several views. There's classic and there's progressive. And so, um Uh I don't know which one prefers this the the ridiculous idea of King James only. Uh Whenever I encounter them, I'm actually flummoxed why anybody would would do that. particularly when the facts are very simple.

The King James was translated with roughly 14th to 15th century 12th to 15th century documents. And the newer translations are translated from second, third, fourth century documents. which means that they are more accurate. And yet, the King James people will say that truths were taken out of the Bible when the newered ones are translated. Even though the older manuscripts don't have a lot of these editions that King James has.

And so this bewilders me why they won't see the truth, won't see the facts.

So there are some hardcore. Dispensationalists. I think the hyper-dispensationalists hold to King James onlyism. Uh So, but a dispensation, generally speaking, is a period of time. And there are different I've written about it on Carm.

There are different dispensational views.

Some that break things into seven, seven dispensations: the age of grace, the age of works, the age of the fall of the world. And they have different ones. And so Then there's mid-action dispensationalism, which basically is hyper-dispensationalism. And uh that's mid-acts, and that's something I've come across a few times. Uh As well.

So there's anyway, there's quite a view. There's quite a bit of a view, but the short of it is dispensationalism is simply that history is divided up into period times or different time periods or epochs. that are designated by certain events historically.

Okay.

Are you there, Fallujah? Hello? Maybe we lost him. We can put him on hold because he's. Can you hear me better now?

Now I hear you. There you go.

Okay, yeah, I understand dispensation the way you explained it, but I do. Have people close to me that they only see it as what I guess you would describe as hyper. dispensationalism, you know, certain churches are Acts two churches and That kind of thing and They still hold a view. of Israel in a context, I don't know if if it was exactly biblical and And this world out of the left behind stuff comes from and and A lot of people I know have been also kind of disappointed in that particular view of scripture as well.

So Okay. I guess what I'm trying to ask is doesn't it kind of lead to a potentially incorrect view of how the scripture was intended to be interpreted. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, it's Depending on the individual, because I've met Like in the hyper-dispensational view, the mid-ex dispensationalist, I've met a few of them, and they are. usually well informed, intelligent, and adamant.

and there's no room for discussion. And so They will also hold to the King James only. And then they will begin to denounce those people who don't hold their view. And so, this is really interesting. It attracts a certain kind of people.

And I've encountered them.

So, um It's a difficult thing to nail down, but yeah, it can affect your view of Scripture and how you interpret scripture, particularly when you look down at others who don't hold that dispensational view that might be covenantal. And so then they'll take covenants and trample them underfoot under dispensational necessity.

So, yeah, it can have a definite deleterious effect on exegesis. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, well, that's good for me. And I've seen them all just all over the place. For NIV, some are King James only, some are. I've even heard one guy say that the The enemy of dispensationalism is raffan. Reform theology.

Reform theology, in my opinion, is a panacea for so many things. It's not perfect, but it'll have its own weaknesses. A lot of times in the reform camp, if you go too far, you have God in a doctrinal box, don't want to let them out. And then they start judging Arminians, and you know, and it gets too far. And you have hyper-Calvinisms, which says don't evangelize, don't do anything.

It doesn't matter what you do because it's all predestined. That kind of stuff, which is, you know, that's not good.

So, I just say if you want to mess something up, you just need two things: people and time. But for the most part, when you're reformed in your theology, you're anchored in the sovereignty of God, the depravity of man, the grace of God, and the security that you have in Him, which allows you to trust and relax in His salvific work in you, and then you can progress in your sanctification, in your dedication, and promotion of the kingdom. That's what I find. But, you know, that's my opinion.

Okay, I agree with you. Do you think the problem is a lot of this stuff is just at times overlapping? Like some of the 'Cause I find some of the views just overlap and people refuse to acknowledge that and they only hold to one view and that's it. And if you deviate, you're of the devil or something. Yes, that's true.

You know, I like to tell people, you know, I'm reformed in my theology. I'm very, very strong. But I tell people: if something comes along that's better, I'll go that way. If there's a better understanding of how things work biblically, I don't have any problems going over there. And it doesn't matter.

But there are people who What they'll do is they just sign up on the dotted line. Their team is the only true team in the world. And everything else is false because you don't belong to their team. This kind of attitude can be cultic. and problematic and it can happen within Christian circles as well.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Well, thank you, Matt. I appreciate it. Good answer as usual. Enjoy the conversation and I hope you have a good rest of your day. You too, brother.

God bless.

Really appreciate it. All right, man. Thanks for calling. All right, that's Jermaine. He's always got good stuff.

He's a good guy. Let's get to Andrew from North Carolina. Andrew, welcome. You're on the air. Yes, sir, Mr.

Matt. Back on there again with you. How about you today, Mr. Matslip? I'm okay.

This is All right. We were discussing the other day about Israel. Israel. We were discussing about I did my research, and you and I were discussing about. the region Israel was.

I think you said that Israel was not Mesopotamia. If it's not Mesopotamia, what region is it? Is Israel? I don't know, but it's not Mesopotamia.

Okay.

But I'm asking the question. I mean, I'm asking you the question: where is it then? If it's not Mesopotamia, it could be Europe, and it can't be Asia.

So, where would it be? Actually, it's a good question. I was on the bridge that went between continents in Turkey. And uh between So It's right it's north of of Israel.

So I'm going to say Israel is in I don't know, is it in Asia or not? That's a good question. If Israel is in Asia or Europe. That's a good question. I don't know.

Hey, hold on, we got a break, okay? I'll look on the web and figure it out. We'll get back after the break. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, we have one open line. The number is 877-207-2276.

Let's see. Uh Oh yeah, back on with Andrew. Let's see what's going on. Then we'll get to... Ryan and then Jake.

Go ahead. You're on, Andrew, Andre. No.

Yes, so I was just asking a question earlier, and you said you was going to expound that a little bit more about the region of Israel, because I thought we had a discussion about that. I think you said it wasn't Mesopotamia. I'm just trying to understand what region is that.

Well there Oh, uh you gotta look it up, but uh it's Israel is in Asia. Yeah, I just looked it up. It's uh in Asia.

Okay.

All right.

Okay.

All right.

And you sure of that, that is that is Asia? Are you sure of that?

Well, I just looked it up. That's what it's saying. Yeah, Mesopotamia is the north area where Turkey is and things like that. Yeah.

Yes, sir.

So Israel is not next to Turkey.

Okay.

Israel is not What turkey? I think Israel is right next to Turkey. No, it's south it's about a two-hour flight. I've t I've flown from Turkey to um to Israel and uh it it was about a two hour flight.

So About a thousand miles or so. Yeah.

I guess. I don't know. Yes, sir.

Okay.

So you're saying that's Asia, what I'm here to say. That's what I looked up on Google because I didn't know the answer. Just what was it? And it says it's in Asia. Oh, okay.

All right.

Yes, sir.

Okay, thank you for that. Yeah.

Okay, thanks a lot. All right.

Now let's get to Ryan, and we'll get to Jake. Jake's going to be an interesting question. Let's get to Ryan from Canada. Ryan, welcome. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt. How are you doing? Doing alright, hanging in there. Hanging in there. What do you got, buddy?

Good. I phoned you yesterday, but I. I caught you right after the show yesterday.

Okay.

You told me to phone back today. I was just I have a r a really close friend that I I really care about and uh Whenever we're talking about scripture, like I agree with him a lot of things, but he came out of the church of Christ. And um I even went there a little bit for myself until I saw some things and then I decided to leave. But he's always kind of throwing in, and you got to be baptized and I'm like, Well, we should be baptized, but you don't need to be baptized to be Like forgiven, but I said it is a command, and we should, once we're actually saved by our faith, we should be baptized.

So, I don't disagree with baptism or think it's bad, but he uses the classic verses that the Church of Christ uses, obviously, right? But the one I was wondering about was the thief on the cross argument that he says.

Well, that's easy to answer because you say, well, the thief on the cross wasn't baptized.

Well, yeah, but he was still under the old covenant.

So I'm kind of like, well, but No, it's only a little bit of a double. In Hebrews 9. Can you expound on that a little? Yeah, Hebrews 9:15 through 16. Got so many verses in my head.

Hebrews 9, let's see, 15 through 16. It says, For this reason he's a meteor of a new covenant. And because in verse 16 it says, There must be necessity of the death of one who made it for the new covenant.

So that Jesus d uh he was crucified and he died before the thief on the cross did. And so therefore, by Hebrews 9:15 through 16, the new covenant was instituted, and the thief died. in the old and the new covenant.

Okay.

All right.

Right. Because as soon as Christ was dead, then the new covenant was established. That's right.

So he was the first one, yes. That's right.

Now we can go to other verses too because this stuff is easy. The Church of Christ people are easy to defeat. All you got to do is a little bit of two things, just a little bit of each: thinking and context. Those are a two-pronged fork that stabs their theology and pokes holes in it. All right.

Yeah.

'Cause I watched you, you run with the brothers from Apologia and you guys did a whole big show of this a few years ago or something, and it was quite quite good too. Yeah, I don't know. I've done a lot of different things over the years. But was it when I was in that that just the T shirt basically? That one?

You see that one? I think so. Yeah, they just had you on their show or something, and you came in, and it was really good. I watched it in the house. I just really care about this guy, but he's.

I'm sorry? No, it's okay. Tell you what, email me. You email me at info at Carm.org. I will send you my notes on baptism.

Okay.

Okay, that sounds good, yeah. And I don't want you to distribute them, but I want you to have them in her 62 pages of notes.

Okay.

Oh, okay, good. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, that'll be good. All right, brother.

Okay.

Great. Thank you. God bless.

All right.

Now let's get to Jake from Maryland. Jake, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, man, how you doing, man? Question is, how do you justify the Canon description that you use When the scriptures don't tell you what books should be in there.

Oh, can I ask what church you go to? I'm Orthodox.

Okay.

So I don't justify them.

Okay.

So neither do the Mormon.

So how are you different from the Mormon then? Is it just a burning in the bosom that makes you feel that it's correct? No.

You asked me a question. How do I justify? You know what it means to justify something?

Well, I mean, if you can't justify it, what's the point of accepting it? Do you know what it means to be a surprise? You're a presuppositional apologetic, right? Hold hold hold calm down, calm down. I just asked you, do you know what it means to justify?

Yes, to tell me why you believe what you believe. No, that's no, that's not the same thing as justifying. To justify, it means to have a lot of. How about if I explain it to you? How about if I explain it to you?

I'm trying to explain. Why don't you are you going to behave like the black Hebrew Israelite people do, or the other guy who just rudely interrupts all the time? Would you never give an answer? Why do you do this? What's wrong with you?

I'm just trying to answer your question, and you're hostile. Is this what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches you to do? Is it what does Eastern Orthodox teach you to be rude and demanding and pushy and interruptive? Is that how you love your neighbor? Are you loving your neighbor according to the law?

Are you?

Okay, so let's try again. How do you know? Let's try again. I'm the one in control of the I can just drop you like a pot potato. It's not a problem.

I just take my mouse over and click. You're gone.

So I'm just telling you that if you want to have a conversation on my show, just be polite. That's all I'm asking you to do, okay? I asked you if you knew what it meant to justify something, and you didn't even answer the question.

Okay.

You said it's giving me a reason for why you believe what you say. Oh, that's different. A reason why. Oh, because God gave the Jews the Old Testament canon, and that's ratified by Paul the Apostle in Romans 3.2, that God gave it to them. He gave the oracles of God to them.

Furthermore, in Luke 11, 51, Jesus cited from the first and last book of the Old Testament as a reference. He also said in Matthew, in Luke 24, 44, he talked about the things that were about him in the scriptures, the law, the prophets, and the psalms, and that excluded the apocryphal books.

So I'm just trusting what the New Testament says about the Old Testament and about the New Testament writings.

Well, are you aware that Jesus made apostles use the Septuagint? Yes, I guess I'm aware. Why would you use that? Why would you go with the Jews who deny Christ and who taken the Masoretic text that we know they changed? You're just so full of anger.

I'm not sure if I should be a certain question that everyone would ask. No, you're aggressive. Look, I talk to people all the time, you're just aggressive. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with that?

Oh, you are aggressive and rude. Is this what your Eastern Orthodoxy teaches you to behave like? Just like you lied about Father Deacon Ananias saying that he was. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Now you're an accuser.

So now you're accusing me of lying? Is this what your orthodoxy teaches you to do?

Well, hold on a sec. You called me a liar. You attacked my character. You attacked my character. Well, why don't you why don't you hold on?

I want everybody to hear how the Eastern Orthodox behave. I want them to know. This is what the real Eastern Orthodox people are like. I know. I've talked to hundreds and hundreds.

More ad hum.

So, you're the one who said I was a liar.

Now, what do I lie about? What do I lie? What are you not that you lie?

Well, you said I was a liar. About what? You said I lied about Deacon Ananias. You were calling him when I saw your date. You're saying you're aggressive and rude because he was basically interrupting you when you interrupted.

But that's not about that game. I was saying that you're assuming that what you do is still doing now.

So, Jake, look, you're not behaving properly.

Okay.

You just can't. I can answer your questions. It's just when I start to when I start to when I start to, you get aggressive and interruptive. You're so rude. You behave.

Watch this. Uh Hey. the magic of the hold button. You see, folks, this is the kind of stuff I have to go through with people. Oh, he hung up.

I guess he. Because he got bent. He didn't like it. Where? Where, where?

I call those diaper Indians. That's what I do. And there's two things I apply to them. When they behave like that, I call them diaper Indians. Where, where?

You don't listen. And the other, they behave like a pack of wild animals. They just come in and aggressively attack. And then, if you try and defend yourself, they just gnarl on you all the more. Yeah, this is what Eastern Orthodoxy has brought a lot of them to: and the arrogance, the pride, and the stubbornness.

You just witnessed it. It was bad. There you go.

Thanks a lot, EO. Hey, we'll be right back with three open lines. Give me a call. I'll be right back. Yeah.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Alright everybody, welcome back to the show. This will be an interesting call. Patrick from North Carolina, welcome here on the air.

Hello? Hello, you're on the air, Patrick. Oh, hi, hi, Matt. I have a question. If a Reform Christian Yeah, how are you?

Somebody on life support. would they would they be able to take them off life support as a Christian? Do you know how I know? Oh. Because we had to take my wife off of life support four months ago.

Okay, so why didn't you wait and let God take control? Um I was told that uh my wife, who passed away four months ago yesterday, was on life support. because uh her organs were failing. And so we put her on life support to hold on.

so th to see make sure everything was as it was. uh that what they said was true and was accurate. and also so that we could have the family fly in. and say goodbye. and then, after three days, we tur till uh it's gonna be turned off the life support.

And then she died in front of us. But couldn't you have just waited and seen how long? Final. Why did you take the decision to to cut off the leg support. Because Because there wasn't any real cognitive um function anymore.

Okay.

Yeah, but you your wife, um. She was on the show, what, uh, two months before the, uh before she passed away and She seemed to be fine on the show that day. I was surprised when she was on the show.

Well, all I can tell you is that we went in for a doctor's appointment on a Friday at 3 o'clock. And um The doctor recommended she get an MRI because of some cognitive struggle that she was manifesting. And then within twelve hours she was on life support. And the doctor told me I remember her face. I remember at six thirty in the morning, being there and I see you and Looking at the doctor and saying, Do I need to call everybody?

Because is this it? And she just didn't say anything. She said, just nodded yes. Yeah.

Okay.

Oh. Okay, that's all. I was just curious because taking somebody off of life support as a Christian to me, would be a decision you wouldn't even want to take. I don't didn't want to. But also, 30 some odd years ago, when my son died, and my wife and I.

Had him, and we knew he had a birth defect that would take his life. We had the option of putting him on life support. And we chose not to. We let the Lord. Just Take them.

He died in the middle of the day. Yeah, but there again, why did you put him on life support? Because. you know, babies can be born much before the due date and Them well premies and they survive.

Well, we're not talking about them, we're talking about the reality that I've actually experienced. I'm just giving you what we did, and I had no problem.

So you you've actually done it twice, and people taken off life support.

Well, not one not put on life support, and another taken off life support. Yes. Yeah.

All right, just uh just That's just something I was thinking because I would say Could it almost be a means of abortion? When you kill somebody.

Okay, I'm going to give you a recommendation.

Okay, I'm going to give you a recommendation.

Um Okay. You're talking to a man who just lost his wife. who's struggling to answer your questions. And you seem a little callous. And the reason I'm bringing that up is not to accuse you of anything, but to ask you to consider.

What it means to be careful and more loving and compassionate. for people who've lost loved ones. It's just a good teaching time for you, I would think, okay? Yeah, but the Calvinists and the Reformed people believe that you should let God. have control.

Yeah, that's true. And we also are subject to the control of judges and doctors. in medical professions?

Okay, we're just gonna move along. You can tell someone doesn't have all his paws in a litter box. Let's get to Oscar from New York. Yeah.

Yes, um I was listening to a pastor.

Now he said something I don't fully understand. He says the unsaved, all those who are not saved, they will be resurrected in mortal bodies.

Now I can understand that. But he says that God will change the mortal bodies to an immortal body, immortal soul, a soul that's fit for hell, and God will cast him into hell. I don't understand what he means by that. Why would God give it? unsafe person immortal soul.

and put him in hell. Because their offense against God is an infinite offense. And to be annihilated would be to stop that infinite offense. Fence from being an effect.

Okay.

Yeah.

Punishment in the Bible is experienced. Annihilationists, sometimes called conditionalists, will say that uh you suffer for a while and then you're annihilated. and that the annihilation is the punishment. But annihilation is nothing. at what nothingness is.

It's nothing. Nothingness is not punishment.

So they're inconsistent biblically and logically. And so when we sin, we sin against God, it's an infinite offence. And so, if someone suffers for a little time and is annihilated, then it's saying that they can suffer and make up for what has to be an offense to the infinitely holy God. They can earn their annihilation through their suffering, and then the punishment stops. Or As some say, you just are annihilated right away.

because that the annihilation is infinite. No, it's not. They say it's infinite in time. But time doesn't apply to nothing. Nothing is what rocks think of.

Annihilationism is nothingness. and you cannot have a proper extent of punishment upon something that has no existence, no properties, nothing. But they say that's what annihilation, or annihilationists, see that's what punishment is: the eternal nothingness.

Well, it was eternally nothing for you before you you were born. It's the same thing after. It's nothing, it's not punishment. It's a ridiculous position.

Okay.

Yeah.

So when the Bible says the wages of sin is death, Mm-hmm.

Well, death, see, in the first mention of it, the day that you eat of the fruit, you will die. And that was in Genesis 2:17.

So, what is this death that God said?

Well, it says in the Hebrew in the do in the dying you will die. In the process of your death that's already manifested, you are going to have another death, a physical death. Death is a spiritual separation from God in one sense, Isaiah 59:2. Your sins have caused a separation between you and God.

Now there's a physical sense in which death comes in. But the annihilationists will say that when you don't ex when you uh cease to exist, some will say that your s body, your soul goes into or your soul goes into a state of unconsciousness. You still exist, but there's no real activity, which is logically very difficult to defend as being rational. And so when we look at what death is, death is defined biblically. They will assert right away that such a death means nonexistence.

Wages in his death, there you go.

Well, where does it say in Romans 6.23 that that death means non-existence? It doesn't. Because there are people who die and are still in existence. In Luke 16, 19 through 31, for example, Lazarus and a rich man. And then they'll say, well, it's just a parable.

It's not a parable. There's a proper name in it. And even if it were a parable, then why is Jesus teaching consciousness after death? And there's other problems and issues. I've written well over 180 articles on annihilationism and conditionalism and studies and word studies and stuff like this, and it boils down to this.

Punishment is experienced. To have eternal punishment means eternal experience. You go to Luke. Excuse me. Revelation 14:11, Revelation 20:10.

But when they say it's just non-existence, And then, how is non-existence punishment? That's it, man. That's what the punishment is. It's nothingness.

So I say, nothing is what punishment is?

So is what a rock thinks of, that's nothing, is that punishment? No, the punishment has to do with someone who was alive.

So punishment in the Bible is experienced, right? Yes? Is there any place in the Bible where punishment never is not experienced by anybody? It doesn't happen. Hmm.

Okay.

Wow.

So so there is such a thing as eternal conscious torment then? Yes, there is. And I can read you the verses that talk about this. I'm going to do it right now, okay? This is Revelation 14, 11.

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beasts and the image, and whoever receives a mark of his name.

Now, they'll play games, in my opinion. They play games with attacks. The smoke goes up, but not their torment. The smoke of their torment. They were tormented, then they died, and then they don't have any existence anymore.

But it says they have no rest day or night. They have no rest day or night, just for a little while. That's not what the text says. And then this one, 2010: the devil who received them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are also. They'll be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And I'll you know, then he has a the annihilationist. Is Satan going to be annihilated? You know, is she gonna be wiped out too? And um and other things.

Okay.

Well, if if God made this spirit, can God destroy this spirit? He can destroy whatever he wants to destroy, bring it into a state of non-existence. But nothing that I've seen in Scripture. necessitates any conclusion that a human soul obtains non-existence. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you very much. All right.

You're welcome very much.

Okay, bye-bye.

Okay, bye.

So, folks, this is a logical problem for the annihilationist conditionalists.

Okay.

So, uh I sometimes illustrate this by condition 1, condition 2, and condition 3. Condition 1 is non-existence, condition 2 is you exist. It's on a timeline, condition one, condition two, condition three.

So condition one is before you existed, condition two is you have a life of say fifty years, and condition three is is your annihilation, your non-existence.

Well, condition one, which is non-existence, and condition three is nonexistence or identical. in every way. How then Is condition 3 punishment, but condition 1 is not when they're identical? See, these are small ways of raising this objection to them. And I am firmly convinced annihilationism is in error.

And yeah, I know there are arguments, I've heard a lot of them. A little rusty in a lot of them, but you know. And they have some more sophisticated arguments than I've come across lately. But if it comes up again, I have to study even more, I will. But like I said, I've written a great deal.

All right, folks, so about Patrick, who Just, you know, I'm concerned for him, the guy who called about, you know, keep on life support. And I was surprised even by his lack of compassion and sensitivity. And it doesn't anger me. It concerns me that such a person just needs our prayers, needs our support, that God would awaken in his heart that aspect of compassion. That he would be a better representative of truth.

And that's what I would ask: that you'd pray for him. And I'm fine. I'm fine. I've been dealing with this on a daily basis and uh I'm fine. And I thank you for all your prayers in the past.

And for all those who have lost loved ones recently, and you don't have a public venue to talk about it, my heart goes out to you as well. It's horrible. Death. is a rude visitor. All right, folks, we'll be right back tomorrow.

Not right back today, but tomorrow. May the Lord bless you and by his grace back on earth then. And hopefully, we'll talk to you. Have a great evening, everyone. God bless.

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