Caregivers, Boundaries, and Addiction

Welcome to Hope for the Caregiver.

I am Peter Rosenberger. This is the nation's number one show for you as a family caregiver. How you feeling? How you doing? How you holding up what's going on with you? More than 65 million are serving as a caregiver in this country of ours. How do you help these people?

What does that even look like? What does it look like to speak to them in their distress? I think it was the poet John will correct me on this when he comes on when he makes an appearance. It said, we all live lives of quiet desperation. That was Thoreau.

Thoreau said that. We all live lives of quiet desperation and caregivers are living that kind of life. And this show is built and designed to speak to caregivers so that they can better navigate a path to safety, a place where they can stand and just catch their breath, take a knee if they have to and start developing healthier strategies for their life. And so this is why we do the show and we want you to be a part of it. 877-655-6755. If you're watching my social media, when we record this, we stream it live when we record it. We'd love to have you with us.

877-655-6755. Speaking of recording live, you know him, you love him. He's the Baron of the board, assaulted the sound, the Earl of Engineering, the man. Oh, forget it. He's just John Butler, everyone.

You know, I, I, I, I really entertain myself throughout the week coming up with stuff for you to intro. I don't know what that says, but it says something. It says that I have to go to life. Quiet desperation.

Quiet desperation. Yes, it is. That was Thoreau by the way.

That was from Civil Disobedience, which is a good one. That was very funny, John. All right. How are you feeling? I'm feeling great, man. I, uh, it's a beautiful day here in Tennessee, but, uh, how are things with you? What's up?

You know, I'm doing okay. It's a beautiful day here in Montana. We got some clouds, uh, but the weather's been very nice this week. It got up to like 50, which in March for us is a big deal. Um, because when you get that direct sunlight, I mean all the snow, it turns everything into mud. We have little rivers running everywhere because all the snow is melting. And, uh, and so that's to be expected, but we got more snow coming in on March. We're not done with winter out here. Oh, of course not.

No, no, no. Well, I was telling some rancher friends of mine out here and they said they went 26 months, one, one time straight with snow every month, 26 months with snow that didn't always stay. I mean, you know, I mean, it was, it would, we had five inches of snow, for example, on labor day last year, but you know, and then two or three days later, it's, it's gone. And, uh, but it was real pretty on labor day. And, uh, so, you know, it's a beautiful day and, uh, I get out and, uh, feed the horses after the show today and, you know, just hanging out.

Um, Gracie is moving a little bit slow. She's not having the best day, but she's, she's hanging tough and, uh, just, just kind of living a life of quietness out here, not necessarily desperation, but quietness. And, uh, and I do like the quiet. Well, uh, before we get into it, cause I want to talk about something a little bit serious.

So, uh, before we get into that, I'll, I'll let you, um, transition us with a joke, John, if you have such a joke. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to brag, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh, but I will because, uh, cashiers are always checking me out. Are those cashiers at Walmart? Yes. It's like, what I'm a, uh, what's the joke?

I'm a, you know, I'm a, uh, I'm a, I'm a five and target, but I'm an eight in Walmart, you know, I like going into Walmart because, uh, there, I, I don't feel like such a heavyweight over there cause it's like, you know, I hear, I stand up and look at, Hey y'all, this is what a 38 looks like. Woo. There you go. All right.

Enough of this for volatility. All right, John, I was having a conversation with a couple yesterday, actually prove it. All right. I got the recording. Uh, somebody's got it at the NSA and the topic came up that they have a family member that is going to be released from prison and they have at this point in time agreed to let this family member come and live with it.

Now let me give you the setup. Sure. Sure. And then we're going to dive into this and we're going to kind of lay these things out because I think this is an issue that's, that's going to resonate with a lot of folks listening to the show. And, uh, and you might want to share this with someone too, that, you know, this guy's in prison because of drugs and he went to prison at least twice because of drugs, but the family members feel like that he has, um, made some significant changes.

Now he's not going to get out for a while. Okay. About another year.

Um, but they feel, they feel confident, a reasonable amount of confidence. He's made some changes, but they're willing to offer him a place. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. A place to live. And, and so, uh, they taught him, asked me some thoughts about it and this man, the reason I got involved with them because they are, um, he's had a pretty significant operation. His wife is taking care of him. And this young man has, has asked if he could come and help be a part of the caregiving experience for the family. Okay. I got, I got lost there. Um, there were too many youth days and yeah. Okay.

I'm sorry. The young man that's in prison is going to go stay and help be a part of the caregiver solution for this man who's had a surgery and his wife has taken care of him. And, um, and so the family's kind of pulling around, but this young man wants to basically make amends and pay back and be a part of that, which is incredibly important. He is a, uh, he is a family member. Is that correct?

He is indeed blood killing. Okay. Okay. So, um, so it's not just a friend of the family. Right.

Or they're not doing a, uh, cause I've had, I've had, uh, experience with people who, you know, mentored individuals that were, you know, through their church or there was a program like that. Right. This is, there is a familial tie with this. Okay. So all right.

So, but then they asked me, they said, what are your thoughts on this? You know, so, um, I, the first thing I thought of was, okay, I commend the idea. Oh, absolutely.

I think it's, I think it's, it shows a great, um, some great healing and some great optimism and hope, but I also subscribe to what Reagan said many years ago, trust but verify. There you go. Yeah. And, and I think that is such a great setup. I mean, a great, great premise to go by when dealing with this. And, and, and I also offered a following pieces of advice and that I want to run this by you and see what would have it. Um, I said, number one is make a list of all your expectations way in advance. Right. And, and, um, and whatever those expectations look like, whether it's, you know, uh, rent housework, groceries, maintenance, you know, contribution, you know, and then, uh, uh, and I said, have all those things laid down with, with, you know, in writing in advance and his feelings don't get a vote on your boundaries. And, and, and I said, if that, if it offends him, there's the door. Well, it's, it may not be a deal breaker, but it's certainly a big caution flag. Yeah.

Cause it's okay for people to initially chafe at something and then go, okay, I've thought about it. And you know, well, and if he's serious about making amends for the damage that he's caused, uh, which has not been insignificant from what I understand, um, this is a great place to start and he's certainly going to be under, he's under much more restraint now in prison than he would be in their home. Right. And so I said, you know, these kinds of things where he's not just going to sit around and play video games all day long, that kind of stuff.

Right. And, um, and then the other thing is about having friends come over to the home. And I said, I would strongly recommend that, that he'd not be allowed to bring any friends to the home for at least six months. Yeah, I would be, I would, I would, you know, you, you'd like to be able to keep an eye on, on what's going on, but that can go south very, very quickly. Um, and you know, you can, the proximity, uh, to these, uh, I'm assuming older individuals that are taking care of him. Um, if he, if he's, if he ends up hooking up with the old crowd or whatever, uh, it might be better to not have that as close to the home as, as, as, as that, you know, that's, that seems reasonable. And then I, and you don't know, you know, he may be making a sincere effort, but his friends may not be. And, and so things such as prescription drugs, civilware, cash, valuables, that kind of stuff, anything that can be sold, um, needs to be properly secured and, and, and to have that conversation up front so that he knows this is what we are expecting and this is what we're looking at.

Uh, addiction. And the other, the other thing I said is that that part of the deal breaker is that he has to be in a recovery program. Um, and, and I'm sure he's in one right now in, in prison, but I wouldn't think so. I mean, he's certainly sober in prison cause he's not getting drugs, but, but well, we don't know that. Well, that's true.

There's that, there's that presumption of dryness. Um, but it's, it's, um, you know, it's, but working a recovery program is going to be something that, I mean, if you've been to prison twice for drug related crimes, you've got a problem. You've got a real problem. And there are three, there are three possible solutions when you're dealing with addiction. You're going to sober up, you're going to get locked up or you're going to get covered up.

Those are the only three paths you can take. Yeah. It just depends on how long, you know, that's a, yeah. And, and, and we, the reason I'm bringing this up on this show is addiction is a chronic impairment.

It is. And wherever there's a chronic impairment, there's a caregiver. So this is, this could be very well, I mean, this is going to be a lifelong issue for him to, to work a recovery program to go into it. And that doesn't have to mean he's in rehab every day. It just means that you're checking in with your AA or whatever 12 step program you're working or whatever. Um, and, and I, you know, I know guys that have been sober 38 years and they're still going to AA, you know, and, and, um, and that, that is a, that is a tremendous sign of healthiness that they're, they're taking this seriously, that they're working it and they're, they're doing this and they're having that support system that they're building and getting reinforced.

Cause, um, um, what is it? The old saying that alcoholics are, um, one thought away from a drink and one drink away from a drunk. And those who are in relationship with alcoholics are one thought away from, uh, you know, losing their minds.

And, uh, is, uh, what does it say? AA prevents a lot, helps prevent a lot of suicides and Al-Anon helps prevent a lot of homicides. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and this was, uh, you brought up something that I was going to get to later, but, um, to, uh, for the, uh, the, the two older individuals who are taking this young man in, it would benefit them to, uh, to probably learn some of that language as well. Well, and I recommended that they go to Al-Anon immediately, you know, um, because, and particularly if he's not coming out for a year, they got time to go ahead and get themselves entrenched with a support group of people who understand what, what, what's going on with this addict or this alcoholic. And, and enabling is, is a, um, is a, you know, they say that addiction is the only disease that convinces you that you don't have it. Yeah. But enabling, enabling is really giving addiction to run for its money and convincing people that they don't have it. Yeah.

Let's be clear about that too. And we caregivers could be enablers. Oh, most of the time caregivers are, you know, if there is an enabler present.

Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily have to be with illicit drugs or illicit, um, behavior on this. Sometimes it can be just because there are a lot of different factors that go on with this. And, and I've dealt with too many caregivers and too many people dealing with it when you're dealing with pain medication or whether you're dealing with, uh, somebody who is going through emotional issues or whatever, uh, you feel bad for it. And so you will stuff your own identity and try to make it easier for that person.

The scenarios are endless, but if, if you're listening to this show now, you understand the concept of what I'm talking about. And so I wanted to broach this and we'll talk about it some more after the break, because I think this is an issue affecting so many family members. The COVID crisis has caused a huge uptick in addiction issues and alcoholism and so forth. And there are relationships that we're, we're having that are being sacrificed on the altar of this.

And it's important that we have tools. We'll be right back. This is Peter Rosenberger, hope for the caregiver, hopeforthecaregiver.com. Don't go away.

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This is Peter Rosenberg. This is the show for you as a family caregiver to stay strong and healthy, to help you stay strong and healthy as you take care of someone who is not. That's Gracie from her CD Resilient.

Go out to Hopeforthecaregiver.com, see more about her music and how you can get a copy of that today. We're talking about addiction issues, boundaries, and all the things that are involved in protecting yourself as somebody who's in a relationship with somebody who has an addiction issue, whether it's alcoholism or drug. Here's an axiom that I stand by because it has proven the test of times. Addicts and alcoholics lie. They lie.

I mean, they lie. And it is a disease to themselves and others. And so it's important for this couple that's going to have this young man come into their home and stay with them. It's important that they understand these things.

You don't have to be bitter or resentful or mean about it. You just have to accept the fact that this is the deal. We go to all kinds of links to protect ourselves against the coronavirus. But there are other kinds of viruses out there, if you will, if you could allow me to extend the metaphor, other kinds of behaviors that other people have that can cause great damage to us. And this is one of those issues. And that's why boundaries are so important. John, I know boundaries, you and I have talked about boundaries a lot on our messaging conversations. Talk about boundaries.

I was wanting to get back to this actually. Well, boundaries, the thing that, like in this scenario especially, one thing that we haven't gotten to is that boundaries are less about the person, like if I'm setting boundaries, it's less about the people that I'm thinking about might injure me or something like that and way more about myself. And boundaries are for the people who are setting them, not for the people that they're setting them ostensibly against in quotation marks because it's real easy to let something slide if it's small and then you let the next thing slide and the next thing and then you look around and you've got, how did we get so many cats?

Or whatever. But it's writing them down like you were saying earlier. That sort of thing is really good for reminding us and keeping it in our memory of the things that we won't put up with. And that might be a bad way of saying it, but we really need to make sure that we keep our eyes on the goal here. And in order to do that, we need to make sure that we are following those boundaries and enforcing those boundaries. Choosing to enforce them is a lot harder, I think, than being on the receiving end of an enforcement often. Agreed.

Yeah. It's quite difficult. It takes discipline.

It takes a lot of discipline. Again, I'm just throwing these things out. These are conversations John and I used to have out there on the veranda at WLAC on 1510 Nashville when we were doing the show then, gosh, John, it's eight years ago this year. And we would go out after the show and we have these long conversations about these topics and I wish we had recorded them.

I really do. I wish we had recorded them because they were very insightful. We had some of them.

I wish we recorded them. But they were insightful and I just enjoyed picking your brain and listening to you on these things. But I think that a lot of this is rooted in self-respect or sometimes the lack thereof.

And if you don't value yourself, how in the world are you going to set valuable boundaries? Well put. Well put. And caregivers are notorious for this. Yeah. Well, caregivers are. We try to white-knuckle this stuff all the time.

It's all up to us, like you always say, that sort of thing. And sometimes that boundary is, I've been on the clock for three weeks straight now. I got to go take a walk or something like that.

And that's a boundary. And it doesn't mean that you're not interested in helping your charge out or anything like that. It can feel like that. It's like, oh, I just need this little thing done. I just need this little thing done. Or that little thing just needs to be done.

Well, this big thing needs to get done too. We kill ourselves. Death by a thousand paper cuts. And I think that with caregivers, we tend to feel sorry for the individual. They are suffering. They are struggling. They have a problem.

And we hurl ourselves recklessly at this. And then it becomes their betterment at our expense. If the person we're caring for isn't happy, then why should we be, sort of thing. And that is a rough place to be. So what I told this couple, and I said, again, this guy, he doesn't need somebody to carry him. He needs somebody to basically put some boundaries for him and have help. At least in this regards, he knows that this is off limits. And that gives him a sense of agency for himself to grow up and become wiser and become more responsible and a responsible functioning member of society.

But agency is something you and I have had this running conversation over for many years now, because I think that overbearing caregivers tend to lean so far into this, that we rob this individual of agency. And I feed the horses out here in Montana and I go out there and they're standing in the same place I fed them yesterday, waiting for me to feed them. But I go over to a different place and they look at me with great perplexion with that, you know, that horse face of theirs. And I always say, why are the long faces fella? But no, I didn't say that. But it's training them because you don't want to feed them in the same place because then they just, yeah, and it was bad for their poop gets all in the hay and everything else.

I feed them all around the pasture in different places and I have to train them for this. And I think that we as people sometimes need to be trained that we don't just sit there and wait for somebody to cater to our every need, that we have agency and we will, you know, we will learn to forage for ourselves, if you will. Yeah, yeah. Well, and this is something I would tell this couple that some of the boundaries that you put in place need to be specifically for you. Don't get upset if, don't make a deal if this young man is doing something that is on paper permitted and, you know, it's within his realm. If you micromanage his recovery, that is not, he's the one that gets to micromanage his recovery. And you need to leave his stuff alone when it's not strictly within the bounds of what you have said is, you know, he needs to have his own agency and, you know, maybe make some mistakes. But, and he will. The boundaries again are not to enforce your will upon him.

It's to enforce that he doesn't get to encroach upon your stuff. Correct. Yes. And that stuff may be your peace of mind.

And in fact, it often is. Yeah. So, all right, we got more to go. This is Peter Rosenberger. We got, I just wanted to have this conversation with John because don't you find him insightful? He's just a lot of fun.

And all that, and he's got good dad jokes too. Don't go away. Hope for the caregiver, hopeforthecaregiver.com. We've got more to go.

We'll be right back. This is John Butler and I produce Hope for the Caregiver with Peter Rosenberger. Some of you know the remarkable story of Peter's wife, Gracie. And recently Peter talked to Gracie about all the wonderful things that have emerged from her difficult journey. Take a listen. Gracie, when you envisioned doing a prosthetic limb outreach, did you ever think that inmates would help you do that?

Not in a million years. When you go to the facility run by CoreCivic and you see the faces of these inmates that are working on prosthetic limbs that you have helped collect from all over the country, that you put out the plea for, and they're disassembling. You see all these legs, like what you have, your own prosthetic legs. And arms too.

And arms. When you see all this, what does that do to you? Makes me cry because I see the smiles on their faces and I know, I know what it is to be locked someplace where you can't get out without somebody else allowing you to get out. Of course, being in the hospital so much and so long.

And so these men are so glad that they get to be doing, as one band said, something good finally with my hands. Did you know before you became an amputee that parts of prosthetic limbs could be recycled? No, I had no idea. You know, I thought of peg leg. I thought of wooden legs. I never thought of titanium and carbon legs and flex feet and sea legs and all that. I never thought about that. As you watch these inmates participate in something like this, knowing that they're helping other people now walk, they're providing the means for these supplies to get over there.

What does that do to you just on a heart level? I wish I could explain to the world what I see in there. And I wish that I could be able to go and say, this guy right here, he needs to go to Africa with us. I never not feel that way.

Every time, you know, you always make me have to leave. I don't want to leave them. I feel like I'm at home with them. And I feel like that we have a common bond that I would have never expected that only God could put together. Now that you've had an experience with it, what do you think of the faith based programs that Core Civic offers? I think they're just absolutely awesome. And I think every prison out there should have faith based programs like this because the return rate of the men that are involved in this particular faith based program and other ones like it, but I know about this one, is just an amazingly low rate compared to those who don't have them. And I think that that says so much. That doesn't have anything to do with me. It just has something to do with God using somebody broken to help other broken people. If people want to donate a used prosthetic limbs, whether from a loved one who passed away or somebody who outgrew him, you've donated some of your own for them to do. How do they do that? Where do they find it? Oh, please go to standingwithhope.com slash recycle. Thanks, Gracie.