God is at work and He's calling His people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs. truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope.
Visit TruthRising.com today. That's TruthRising.com. What we came down to was that. He thought that he'd been miserable and suffering because he had no boundaries and he had no voice. That's a miserable place to be.
So his choice was to have total freedom, but it was really selfish because it wasn't taking her love and her needs into consideration.
Well, that's Dr. John Townsend, and he's back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to talk about how to set healthy boundaries in your marriage. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. You know, John, on the last episode, we covered some great examples of doing exactly that, setting some boundaries.
I know for some, you're going, oh, no, no, no, I can't do that. Yes, you can, and it's a good thing. We just need to do it in a healthy way. If you missed the program yesterday, you can get the app for the phone or you can go to our website to listen. It's easy to do, and you have access to all that great content.
We're going to continue our discussion today with Dr. John Townsend on his book, and Dr. Henry Cloud, Boundaries in Marriage. I know for some, I mean, it makes me a little to think about that, but that's exactly why I need to hear this. I hope that's true for you too.
And where we ended last time was how boundaries bring freedom in the relationship. Dr. Townsend is a psychologist and a very popular speaker and writer. As you said, Jim, his book Boundaries in Marriage, the subtitle is Understanding the Choices That Make or Break Loving Relationships. It's a terrific resource.
Get a copy from us here. We've got the link in the show notes. John, welcome back to the discussion. This is great.
So appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. Let's pick up a little bit where we left off yesterday. And you mentioned kind of severity within marriage and how you see things.
It's normal, mild, moderate, and severe. I want to dig into that a little bit about examples. We talked about even separation last time and a spouse's need to maybe get out of danger, certainly, but also emotional separation until maybe the person, the spouse, has an addiction they need to deal with or something like that. And again, if you missed it, go back, listen to it, or for the first time, go listen to it. In that context, what about the mild and moderate?
Separation is not what they want to do, but they want to get to a better place.
So what are the kinds of boundaries that we need in our toolkit? There are several, Jim, that are effective if they're done the right way. We'll talk about that. But I'm going to go from a bit linear. I'll go from the The mildest ones to the ones where you have to have more severe consequences.
How's that? That's good. All right.
Well, the first one is our words. You know, your words are kind of you. And so just to say that hurt my feelings, or I don't feel, I feel kind of dismissed when this happens, or whatever, words with. And we talked about this in an earlier show: words with a person who's kind of mildly a boundly controlling person. They'll just touch their heart and say, I'm sorry, I'm I repent.
Let me Maybe a better. And then we've got the truth, and truth is a little more direct, like this is a bad problem, and your attitude. And by the way, we talk about addictions a lot because we're all in the same world here, but this also could be attitudinal things. It could be behavioral things. It could be judgment.
It could be sarcasm. It could be cutting remarks. It could be shutting down and stonewalling and all those things.
So there's a number of, unfortunately, there's a number of ways people can have problems in their marriage, but truth can help.
So words and the truth, then sometimes there's consequences and we'll have later uh a kind of list of like what what are they but One would be like an emotional one of I can't be as close to you as I'd like to be. And so I'll be with you. I'm here with you. We'll have a life. But I can't be vulnerable.
If I open up, you kind of beat me up emotionally. That's a safety issue. It's a safety issue. And I meant beat you up emotionally. Emotionally.
It's not safe when every time you're honest with somebody about something that hurts, if they attack you emotionally. Then one is emotional distance, which is similar. Like, I just, I'll be here functionally, but you've been so harmful that I'm not. I'll exist here. I'm not going to be.
I'm not going to be irresponsible, but I'm not going to be able to be the person I'd like to be with you. Then we move to physical distance.
Sometimes I've got to be in another room. If you say this, I'm going to leave the room. Or if you say this, I'm going to be in the room and stay in the room. Or we're going to have to live in two separate areas or two separate houses sometimes if it's really dangerous.
Sometimes it's a financial distance. Like we're going to have to separate finances because one of us is uber irresponsible or one of us is uber controlling. And then there's other people. Other people are a boundary. You know, I think about David and his mighty men.
I think about Nehemiah and his team. You have to have other people around you because you don't have the strength to do this. And so many people have to be strengthened. In fact, I don't know very many people who had a marriage problem that didn't solve it using other safe people to let them know they weren't crazy, to pray with them, to love them, to give them strategies, to strengthen them. Other people are a great boundary.
And then. time.
Sometimes people need a timeout. to know gosh He was serious about what he said, that he wasn't going to. be treated like that anymore, so time away.
So, you use these in different ways depending on different situations, but your toolkit is important, I think, David. Yeah, no, that's good. Let's move to this concept in the book about triangulation. I found that very interesting. I think Gene and I suffered from a bit of that probably early in our marriage, where outsiders gave input and we would move in that direction and not say, Okay, is this what we believe?
Is this what you and I want to do? And I think that's common to most couples, especially early in marriage. But describe triangulation and what you're getting at with the description.
Well, there's healthy Outsiders, and there's toxic outsiders. Outside's not always bad. I mean, to have somebody who loves the Lord and you want your marriage to win, and they want to give some advice and have a good solution. We all need that because two people can't fix a marriage. Two people can't keep a marriage happy.
You've got to have the church around you and save people. But there is a toxic outsiders, and this is called triangulation, as you said. When something you're supposed to be processing in your marriage with somebody else, something about money or kids or faith or business or whatever and you're stuck And then the other person comes in and meets that need, then that causes a rift. It's really an intruder in the marriage. And it could be girlfriend, girlfriend.
And it could be your children. And boyfriend, boyfriend, or children. Wow, that's a. When one of them that doesn't feel understood goes to their child and says, well, you really understand, and we're really friends, and I can talk to you about your dad or your mom. It happens when my kid called him my best friend and we both kind of collude against that negative parent over there.
Somebody's got to call it.
Somebody's gotta say We need to have a me and you relationship, not a me moderated by the other person relationship. Because as you mentioned in your own life with Jean, it happens in all marriages where somebody is going to get fed information or getting needs met. They're supposed to be met in the marriage. And Dr. Townsend, explain what happens when one of the spouses gets up The the courage, I guess.
To establish that I might have a boundary problem here. I need something for our relationship to thrive. And um It's not Warmly received. It's not like, oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, hun.
So give a script for how I can handle that if I'm bringing a boundary to my spouse and they're not receptive. I'm a big fan of role play, John. And that's the act of working out a difficult conversation over a few minutes with somebody else. To kind of go through the anxiety and the bad headwinds, and then all of a sudden you're, you know. If you're conflict avoidant a bit anyway, and you don't like that, and who really loves conflict?
You know, you start off at a What I would call a spinal tap 11 in intensity, and then it drops down to about a five when you're role playing. I can live through this.
So practice, practice, practice. The script is do it and have them pretend like they're gonna be defensive and threaten and all this, and realize, okay, now I live past it.
Now, the script, when you're really there, would be when you say, You tend to get mad at me a lot and it's hard for me. I think you've got it just feels like there's this trigger and I can't please you and I just felt like you're kind of come down my throat and then the person says, well, think about all the things you do, for example. The answer is Yeah. I want to be the spouse that God made me for you. and I want to take the beam out of my eye.
And if I'm doing anything like that, I want to change it. I want to be a changing, growing spouse for you. But we're talking about this issue right now.
So can we meet next week at Tuesday at three o'clock? And you can talk about all the stuff that I do that bothers you and alienates you. I don't want to be that person, but can we focus on this?
So they know they've got their day in court. But let's stick to the point. Otherwise, you've got two three year olds in the sandbox throwing sand at each other and nothing good happens.
Well, yeah, we've had conversations where we're talking about some marital issue and No kidding, it's 15, 20 minutes away from the initial expression, and I'm wondering, how did we get here? And what was the original? How did that rabbit trail happen? But the way I look at it is. And Henry and I wrote a book about how to have that difficult conversation that addresses marriage and other relationships.
One of the things to remember, when you're the one calling the meeting, you know, it's Tuesday at 3 o'clock and the kids are down, we're going to have the talk. If that other person can rabbit trail you, well, then you've lost control. Who called the meeting?
Well, you did. Who is in charge of the outcome?
Well, you are.
So when they start diverting or getting defensive, say, this is hard for me, can we get back to it? Or if you want to speak to me next week or whatever, but It's not bad control. You have to control the structure of the outcome, or it ends up being a bunch of useless rabbit trails. Aaron Powell, Jr.: You know, John, in the book, you mention and encourage couples to start with asking their spouse for internal change before you say, stop this behavior. What's the distinction?
Well, Jim, you know, Jesus talked about how There are trees and there are fruits. And a good tree makes good fruit and a bad tree makes bad fruit.
So if you tell somebody to change your bad behavior, well, maybe they've got something, some work to do inside. Maybe they need to let go of something or grieve something or admit something. Or maybe they need to get help, or maybe they're disconnected and they're lonely and empty, because that's what creates the bad behavioral fruit in my life.
Now, you can tell them to stop, but if the tree is not healthy, as Jesus said, the fruit won't change.
So I think it's really helpful to say, and I know this has been a long time issue for you, sweetheart, but I'd like for you to maybe. Look at yourself, and I'll look at myself too. Nobody's better than anybody else, and see what may be driving some of that. Yeah. You know, in the book, and I would say this.
To me, like a very superficial thing, but I could get the severity of it. This was a story about Jim and Larry who were fighting over going to hockey games.
Now, I would say if you're fighting over a hockey game, you're probably watching too much hockey because they fight so much. But why were they fighting? What did you put in the book that we could learn from their experience?
Well, what we can learn is that sometimes we don't speak up and set a limit, and then we act that limit out later in terms of resentment and, you know, quietness and sullenness, and that's awful. Nobody wants that. Jen's problem was really that she had some fears of conflict, of bad things that would happen if she had a voice, if she spoke up. And, you know, we had no evidence that he was the kind of guy that would get mad or trigger or anything. And it seems like Jim brought that into the marriage.
Who knows? From her childhood, but that's what had to be worked on. And the way it gets worked on is she understands. Why she's that way?
Well, the fear she has, realizes that he's a safe guy. And then, once she's done her own work on that, or during that process, She goes to him and says, I gotta confess somethin'. I've been making us both miserable at the hockey games. And I don't like hockey, and I haven't really been direct with you about that, because I've been so terrified that you're going to be mean to me, and you're not a mean guy. And I'm sorry, Cozy's going to...
We hadn't wasted some time, but I've got a voice now, and I love you so much. And I can tell you without any fear, or maybe a little bit of fear, I really don't want to go. Or I'll go maybe every now and then. We'll compromise. But it is having that voice to be able to say, I don't really like hockey.
Is it okay if you why don't you take a buddy? Yeah, and I'll stay home and take care of some things I want to take care of, and that's that's healthy. And with a healthy guy, he'll say, Well, yeah, because you don't ask me to go to your deals either, and that's fine. And we've got a great relationship. I remember.
One of the great quotes from Ruth Graham, Billy Graham's wife.
Somebody said, have you had this 50, 60, I can't remember your marriage. She said, Well, that's easy. Billy plays golf, I play bridge. This is focused on the family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Dr. John Townsend, talking about the book he co-wrote with Dr.
Henry Cloud called Boundaries in Marriage: Understanding the Choices That Make or Break Loving Relationships. It's an excellent resource, and we'd invite you to get a copy from us. The link is in the show notes. The idea, again, of freedom in the relationship, you know, I think as Gene and I have grown older and more mature in our now 39-year marriage, Her trip with the girlfriends that she has from kindergarten, who has those relationships? My wife.
And she has two great girlfriends that they once or twice a year get together. But just being relaxed about that, that is good time for her to reconnect with these deep friends and talk about where life is at, those kinds of things. Reciprocally, for me, to be able to go out and play golf with some buddies on an extended weekend or something like that, a getaway.
Sometimes the relationship isn't healthy enough to allow each other to do those things. And I would say, early in our marriage, we struggled with that space for each other. Speak to that. Need to be able to say, hunt, I really, this is good for me and it's an important thing for me, and it's healthy. Yes, it does come back to the idea: is that.
Marriage is two completing people, they're becoming mature in Christ with their emotions and their behavior and all that, meaning that they can be independent as well as dependent with each other.
So, is having the conversation and saying, I think you need space. I know I need space. And the cool thing about it is that when you're out there in those, whatever, you're playing golf with your buddies or you're going with your childhood friends, you get enriched, you get encouraged, you feel more alive because you're getting these other sources of relational nutrients. You come back a better spouse, more to offer.
So there's no fear involved once you work through the fear. Often, I think, is rooted in mistrust. Like, how could you go do that and have fun with those people? Are you going to be doing things that are inappropriate? I mean, whatever is rolling through your head.
And the mistrust comes from dependency. Correct. I have a dependency issue that I haven't worked out yet because if I'm afraid, if I've got a special Spouse is not out there being crazy and irrepropriate. If I've got a good, healthy, normal spouse, and I feel like these feelings of mistrust when they go off with their friends, I've got to deal with my own dependency issue. That's so good.
You know, I want to hit the six types of conflict. I'll just read the list and let's come back and talk to a couple. Conflict one, sin of the spouse. Let's just stop there. That's a big one.
Sin of the spouse. What does that mean? Yeah, Jim. I mean, yeah, we're all sinners and we do this. And there's a number of ways that one person can say it's their issue, and it is.
It's not like always both of us. And so, in a minor way, maybe she shows disrespect and contempt to him. And, you know, if you look at Gottman's research, You know, you see that men tend to sin more in stonewalling and shutting down emotional resources, and then women are more Prone to, when they're stressed or activated, to show contempt for the man, well, then she sins against him by showing contempt instead of love for him. That's a minor thing, not really minor, it hurts, but it's an attitudinal. Relational thing.
Yeah, it's subtle sin, I would say. You know, it's not infidelity, it's not addictions, but these are things that. That's the sin of one. That's his issue. It's not our issue, it's his issue.
Yeah, and that poison the relationship. It's her issue, not our issue.
Sometimes it's just one person's issue. Then all the way to infidelity, which is the really awful stuff. And abuse and those sorts of things. Then the point is, of those six, sometimes you can't say, well, the other person's part of it. They sort of are, but in reality, somebody's got a problem that they must face.
Now, I stopped on the first one because it caught my attention, sin of the spouse. Let me quickly just hit the others. Two, immaturity or brokenness of one person. Three, hurt feelings that are no one's fault. Four, conflicting desires.
Five, desires of one person versus the needs of the relationship. And then six, known versus unknown problems. I'm glad you read those, Jim, because can I camp on one of them that really comes up a lot in marriage? Absolutely. It's the brokenness of the person.
Not the sin of the person, but their brokenness and immaturity. And I'll give an example. Maybe somebody's a nice person, but he He never really learned from his family of origin how to be, have a work ethic, work steady, be ambitious. you know, this sort of thing. He just kind of has fun and he takes little jobs and they're financially insecure.
Well, in a way it's a sin, but it also it's something that's broken in him. But she's walking on eggshells around him because she doesn't want to upset him.
Well, she has to sort of get the support of whatever she needs and say, I love you, but we can't keep living like this because we need a steady work ethic and a person who wants to go professional. That's what I meant by the immaturity of someone. Yeah, and again, these are so seemingly subtle, but so destructive if you don't. maturely talk about them, set boundaries around that. Two in the marriage are violating these things, right?
Yeah, I think about all y'all's listeners on this program. And some of them are saying, Oh, I've got a nip in the bud, and some of them are saying, I'm way beyond that.
Well, then it's time to deal with it now. John, I think the one that caught my attention was hurt feelings that are nobody's fault. Because it feels like in a marriage relationship, it's always somebody's fault. What did you mean by that? That's a great question, John.
Sometimes we're just more sensitive about things than other people. Maybe somebody doesn't like to Be made fun of about the way they dress. And you know, they don't talk about it. But somebody says, well, that's a bad outfit on you, and all of a sudden, somebody feels hurt.
Well, he wasn't or she wasn't being mean. They're just saying, I'm telling you, that didn't look great. And it's those underlying feelings where nobody was being abusive or mean or anything. They're just saying something, and somebody got their feelings for it. And the way I talk about it when I'm working with couples is: look.
You guys have landmines in your heads. Every couple has landmines in there. There are different landmines between him and her. And you're innocent and he's innocent and she's innocent, you just tripped over it. And when you said that outfit doesn't look good or those slacks don't look good, you tripped a sensitivity in the person and they kind of triggered.
You actually would say that? I mean, I'm shocked.
Well, I mean, I'm just saying any smart husband's going to say, you look fantastic. You look fast.
Well, it's so funny because I was thinking how I said that, Jim, I said pants so that you would think I was talking about the woman saying that to the guy, but it didn't work. I don't think maybe, yeah, do I look good? Great.
Okay. You look fine. All right, that's close enough. See, the hurt feelings are somebody's fault. No, I mean, well, that's a whole nother thing, but I get your point.
I mean, it's innocent. Yeah, it's not. I didn't know. It's not meant to harm you. Yeah, I didn't know you had sort of a trigger there.
I'll be nice about that. You know, that raises a great point where you have a real catastrophic childhood, whatever it might be. And for the spouse, the triggers seem endless. Of course, that's unfair to say it that way, but there are plenty. And it's work.
For both spouses to identify those things and then to try to deal with it, put boundaries around it, to help. The spouse get to a better place. What about in that plethora of pain that a child grew up in, that there's insecurities, there's control issues, there there's just these things that make it very difficult to get to a biblically healthy place, what do you do? What a great question to bring up to couples who go. We have a problem that's bigger than us, and we've been trying to solve it, thinking the two of us can solve it together.
What if somebody's going broke every month every year? Then you go to a Dave Ramsey and you get help. What if somebody doesn't understand their Bible? You go to a good church where they learn their Bible. And we get out of the we are this self-contained unit, just us and Jesus, because the Bible doesn't say that.
We're supposed to have, like 1 Peter 4:10 says that we're the stewards of his manifold grace. We've got to have our own grace and God's grace, but also the body's grace around us to deliver what we need.
So, somebody who's had a very traumatic and catastrophic, awful, dysfunctional family. I probably wouldn't say infinite, Jim. I agree with you. I probably say something like, This is bigger than us. I feel overwhelmed by this.
And we've been working for a while. We need to go to specialists who deal with this and have seen a thousand of these situations. Get the help outside their marriage, whether it's financial or theological or emotional. Yeah. John, another one of those types of conflict was the needs of one person are against the needs of the relationship.
You had a story in the book about Riley and Emily. I think it really tells the story of where we need to be careful through their example. Yeah, Riley, the the husband, had grown up compliant and sort of fearful of letting people down and kind of a uber, uber, rulekeeper, and Emily was sort of this person, but she had a a bit of control and so she kind of ran things. And then he started changing, and people do change over life, and then he started wanting his freedom and his voice, and you're supposed to have that. And then he went too far.
It reminds me of um Proverbs 30, where it says that the earth trembles when a slave becomes a king.
Well, Ryder was a slave to his fears, and then he started going, I got a voice. And man, he let her have it and he was kind of like, I'll do anything I want to. I can spend whatever I want to. You're not the boss of me. He was on the way to being healthy, but he wasn't yet healthy.
And the pastor very wisely said, Riley, you're confusing freedom with selfishness. What we came down to was that He thought that he'd been miserable and suffering because he had no boundaries and he had no voice. And that's a miserable place to be.
So his choice was to have total freedom, but it was really selfish just because it wasn't taking her love and her needs into consideration.
So. I had to change his idea about the suffering he was in. He wanted to have a suffering-free life. I'd been in jail all my life. I knew I'm going to.
No, you can't yell, fire, and a cry at a theater.
So I had to say That's not what good marriage is. You're still suffering, but it's a higher level of suffering. You're still going to suffer if you're going to be with this woman the rest of your life until we go to glory.
So instead of the suffering of being afraid and not wanting to speak up and feel even afraid of rejected, you've now got to suffer with. Letting her have her needs met too, and enjoying her needs and being part of those needs. And that's suffering because we're all selfish, and that's a higher level of suffering that can bring you great love and great intimacy. Yeah, and it's that pendulum effect, isn't it? And you feel like you're recovering or you're coming out of a bad place and you jump 40 spaces to another bad place, leaping over the good place, the healthy place.
Oh, like a really young kid at two years old, this wonderful little kid becomes this, you know. What is this? They're saying no and running around the supermarket. The terrible two. The terrible two they call that.
And then they become a nice person who can speak and go to college and make the world a better place. It's a great example. Dr. John Townsend, this has been great. Your wonderful book here, Boundaries in Marriage.
I think every marriage needs a copy of this. We'll make it really easy. If you can join us in ministry and make a gift of any amount, if you could do it monthly, that's great. A one-time gift, that's good too. If you can do that, we'll send you a copy of the book, as always, saying thank you for being part of helping other marriages.
If you cannot afford it, hey, we're into making your marriage the best it can be. Just get in touch with us and we'll give it to you and we'll trust others will cover the cost of that. That's pretty easy. We just believe in Henry Cloud and John Townsend's content that much. And we love the rootedness it has in biblical truth.
And so get in touch with us. Also, we have our Hope Restored program where it's a four-day intensive. It's got an 82% post-two-year success rate, meaning we go back to every attendee. We don't cherry-pick those. We go back to everyone and say, Are you doing better?
Are you still married? And 82% say yes and yes. And so that's a really good thing. We're here to help you make your marriage the best it can be.
Well, you know, Jim. What I always prescribe to people, and this is not about me, but it's about the book, is that it's nice to have his and hers. One's on your nightstand, one's on their nightstand. And they read the chapters together underlying things and they talk about it.
So it's not like, oh, my spouse got this book that I've got to read. We've got our own. And so I would be happy to provide the second book in that couple.
Well, that's really generous. Let's buy one or donate one and get another. Yeah, take the steps by getting a copy of this book, Boundaries in Marriage, or by learning more about Hope Restored. We've got details for you in the episode notes, or call 800, the letter A in the word family. John, before we sign off, tell me about the Institute.
I've spoken there a couple times via Zoom, but tell me what's happening. Actually, you're one of the fellows of the Institute, people that have accomplished a lot of things and you've helped our students so much. The Townsend Institute's part of Concordia University, Irvine, California, and we're a fully accredited online program that provides a doctorate in counseling or a master's or credential, also a master's or credential in coaching or a master's or credential in an organization of leadership. Got hundreds of students, tons of great careers, and if somebody thinks this might be the opportunity for their next step, we'd love to talk to them. That's good.
And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. God is at work, and He's calling His people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth.
Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit TruthRising.com today. That's TruthRising.com. Yeah.
