This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. And we're just grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. And to learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Hi. I think we're living in a day and age where it's really easy for marriages to be tempted in every way.
Unfaithfulness, we're bombarded with social media, we're connecting with people that we've never been able to connect to. Are you confessing right now? No. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.
And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. We have been really careful in putting boundaries in our marriage. But I have a good friend that just happened to reach out to an old guy that she went to college with.
They had five kids. They'd been married for quite a while. And sadly enough, she kept connecting and it ended up in an affair. And that was one of our best friends and best couple friends. Yeah, and it was.
Obviously, something we then walked through with them and the miracle, God did a miracle because I. Literally said to you, Even God can't save this marriage. And that was a horrible thing to think, but he did. He really did. But it highlighted how.
Critical protection is to protect your marriage, to set up boundaries, not just sexually, but in all different areas. And people, younger people, think we have been ridiculous. Like, you guys are so overboard because we've been very intentional about protecting and putting boundaries in our marriage. Yeah. And so I think it's a great topic to talk about.
And we've got the couple in the studio. The couple. They'll talk about it. I mean, we've got Deborah Phileta and her husband John. And usually Deborah's on podcasts and interviews by herself because she's the author, wrote a book called Choosing Marriage, which you wrote without your husband John.
But John's sitting over there in the engineer booth, and we had lunch with him. We're like, this guy's got dynamite issues. I don't know how you guys pulled this off. He is amazing. Has he ever done this?
He's a physician. He's smart. He's really wise. We're like, oh, yeah. And Deborah, she's amazing.
She's a podcaster. She's an author. They're both mom and dad of four kids, one daughter, three sons. Homeschoolers. You guys are just crazy girls.
You're both homeschooling. You're Kids.
So, this is fun. Welcome to both of you to Family Life Today. Thanks for having us. Let me ask you: why have you never done this? I don't know.
I live the adventure from behind the scenes, I guess. He does so much behind the scenes.
So, he's maybe doesn't do as much with the mic, but so much of the background of the ministry is. Because of him.
So. Deborah, tell the story of when you were speaking at a large conference and you were selling books and you had someone come up to you commenting about the guy selling the books for you. Yeah, he's like, how did you get an ophthalmologist to follow you around the country and sell your books? It's like, well, he is my husband.
So works out. That's good. You do homeschool. You do write. You're a therapist.
You're an eye surgeon. How do you keep your marriage? Strong. We didn't get right in the beginning. Like when you first get married Even as a Therapist at the time I was a therapist in training, you still don't know what you're doing.
You know, it takes learning and experience doing things wrong and then getting it right.
So, John, did you ever say, stop being a therapist? Did you ever say that? I have definitely said that. I've heard those words a couple times. I'm not a client.
I'm your husband. Yeah, I would too. I mean, there's got to be times you feel like you're getting analyzed, though. Like I shared with Deborah, you know, at lunch, and when I'm up preaching and I see Jack Wilson, he's a therapist in our church. I feel like he's got to be looking at me like, oh my goodness, you have so many issues.
Have you ever felt that? I don't actually feel that. And the reality, being totally truthful, she's usually right.
Somebody just give me a little bit to take home. Let's edit that one out. But in reality, the fun is, you know, we've been learning together, growing together, and it's been amazing to watch our marriage transform over the past decade. And we're still learning. Learning today.
It's not like I have it totally figured out, but we're on the journey together. Yeah. And one of the things you wrote about in Choosing Marriage, but you also together, I've found you're passionate about is this idea of protecting your marriage. I love your chapter title. Yeah.
Yeah. Always use protection. Obviously, we're, you know, tongue in cheek on that one, but talk about protection. How do you protect your marriage? Yeah.
And first and foremost, I wouldn't be able to write these chapters if I didn't have a spouse who is helping me live them out. You don't just write it, you have to live it, you know?
So this is something that I think we're both passionate about. Proverbs 4:23, above all else, guard your heart. And it doesn't say guard other people's hearts or other people should guard your heart. We're responsible for protecting what God has given us, and that's our marriage.
So. We're deliberate about that in a few ways. John, did you guys start out like that? Like, hey, this is gonna be something that we're talking about. This is important to us.
Did you start there and know that? I don't think we knew it to start. I mean, I think we've always been totally committed to one another. But I think as we watch, just, you know, as you guys shared, you see other couples falter. You see people make mistakes.
You see, you know, we see it unfortunately on the news all the time. And you realize no one's immune to this. You know, it can happen to anyone in any place. Including us, including us. And you realize you don't find a great marriage.
You make a great marriage. And part of making it is this process of putting boundaries around your marriage. What's that look like, Deborah? You have some principles. Start us off with how you teach this.
Yes, I would say three main things, and we can kind of talk about them in order. But we protect our emotions. We protect our interactions and we protect our time. Those are like the three, what I like to say, the intruders, because that's where we're most susceptible to making a decision that's not healthy or going down a path that's not good for our relationship.
So when it comes to our emotions, you realize that there's so many opportunities. to either miss sharing your emotions with one another or ending up sharing them with somebody other than your spouse.
So we try to be really intentional about making sure that we give the first fruit of our emotional connection to one another. How do you guys do that? Especially now you've got four kids. You've got a six month old. And right now you're probably just surviving some days.
So how do you do that? I think now it looks like, you know, we're very deliberate with how we interact in our time.
So like by 9 p.m., you know, we're fighting to get all the kids in bed and kids know it's mommy and daddy time after that. There's no coming in the bedroom. I don't care who's hiding in the closet, you know, like it's our time. And they know that our room is kind of our sanctuary. And we're very deliberate about spending time together, you know.
And it's, it's easy to, you know, hop in bed, turn on TV, turn on Netflix. Oh, yeah. That's, you know, that's the quick, easy, relaxing way. But it's being deliberate about, hey, let's talk a little bit. Tell them about our Sunday night ritual.
Yeah, this is good. Yeah. So something that we started early on in our marriage that I would actually say totally transformed our marriage and has made it incredible and has transformed me as a man and in every way has made me better is our Sunday night check-ins.
So every Sunday night at 9 p.m., you know, initially I had my iPhone alarm pop off. 9 p.m. comes. I got a, we got a check-in. I love that you set your alarm.
Otherwise, he wouldn't remember. That's how I knew that he was being intentional about this. Yeah. So your alarm goes off.
So our alarm goes off. We hop on the couch. And, you know, the first time we sit there, you know, there's Just a lot of crickets going off. And it was really, especially for you, right? Yeah, it was really awkward.
I'm used to the emotional conversation. It was super awkward. I mean, I talked more in 10 minutes with her than I probably shared my emotions my entire life. Really? Did you ask some great question, Deborah?
I don't recall that I did. I think it was just like having these big picture. check-ins. Like, let's talk about how we're doing. Emotionally.
Let's talk about sins and struggles. Let's just kind of these big picture things that we would both take turns talking about. If I said to Dave, like, let's talk about how you're doing emotionally. I was just going to ask John, what do you say? Because if Anne said that to me, I'd be like, I don't know.
I'm okay. That's exactly what I said. I was like, I don't know. And she's like, well, I don't know. It's not good enough.
You got to think for a second. Take a minute to pause. And what are you actually feeling?
So then I said, hey, you know, because at the time, I think I was in medical school, you know, there's always this like baseline test of baseline stress of, you know, if I don't score high enough on my tests, I can't go into the field that I want to study. And so, I want to be ophthalmology, which you have to score really high to do what, to get into it. And so, I always was feeling a little stressed with school. You know, we literally were living on like, I don't know, $2,000 a year, like basically nothing and loans.
So, we always had money.
So, like, it's funny. Two kids, two little kids at the time. That's why we started this because we were actually not at a good place. We were at a place where we were both defaulting to unhealthy patterns and not connecting well. And it's like, This isn't gonna work for either of us.
Like, this is not a good place, and we can't just let our marriage be on autopilot and just see what happens. Yeah, you know, so we were like, This is what we need to be deliberate about connecting.
So, John, did you find yourself? Because I'm thinking, okay, if I'm you and I've been you, yeah, you know, I've felt exactly those things in different times in my life. If I was being really honest, I would be saying, I'm scared. I'm afraid. Stressed.
Um I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I is that the kind of things you start talking about? And just saying that out loud is like, oh man, this is going to be helpful. If Dave said that to me, did you feel like this, Deb? Like, that's endearing.
That vulnerability and that going deep. It is, and if there's any bitterness here, He's working too much, or I have too much on my plate in medical school. He's, I'm home with the kids. That sharing dissolves that. It invites you into their heart.
I mean, I feel like it's an endearing thing because it's an invitation to come and experience what I'm experiencing. Let me share this with you. And why you have to protect your emotions is because it is such an intimate part of who you are. If your spouse isn't receiving that part of you, who is? Is it your mom?
Yeah. Your sister? Your best friend? Or somebody outside? That's inappropriate.
Yeah. You know, like that's where it begins is having that comfort level to just be honest about how we feel. At the Week and Remember Marriage Gateway that we do at Family Life, we talk about level five communication where one is sort of superficial, but five is like, I'm going to go and open my heart. Yeah. So you're going there.
Yeah. Was that a struggle? It was unnatural. Yeah. You know, my body's like, hey, this is DEF CON 5.
High alert here. And part of it, too, like, we confess to each other. We confess sin, you know? And at first, it's really awkward to say things you've done wrong. What's that look like?
Hey, it's time for you to confess your sin. Is that what you're asking? Hey, tell us about yourself. How did you get into that? Like, oh, it's your turn.
Now it's my turn. Yeah. How did you decide that? I mean, you just begin to realize that it's easy to live. in a way where you don't fully know each other.
Unless you're intentional about asking those questions. And I am a therapist, but I was a newbie therapist at the time.
So it's not like I had this extraordinary set of skills that the average person doesn't have. It was just a matter of what does it look like to connect with my spouse and to share my heart. James 5 tells us. Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another so that you can be healed. It's like I had accountability in college with some girlfriends.
Why can't we have that in our relationship? And what does that look like for each of us? Does this mean there's no secrets? There's no secrets. No, we're open with everything.
So, I mean, it started early like if I had an inappropriate thought. Or if I looked at a woman inappropriately, I told her. And you know what happens when you confess those things, you get freedom from them. Yes. And I realize if I have to tell her these things on Sunday night, you're highly motivated during the week to choose the right thing.
Oh, it's accountability. Because you realize this is what I'm going to share. This is how I'm going to feel. This is how I'm going to hurt my wife. And it's going to make me feel horrible.
And I'm wrong in doing this. And it helps you become, that's why I say it's Transform Our Marriage, Made Me a Better Man, because you live in freedom, joy, and then the fullness that you get to experience of being fully known, fully loved, fully accepted is deeper than anything you could imagine. No, are there things that you think shouldn't be shared? Like emotionally or too far? Tell people that if your life is like a book, chapter by chapter, make sure that your spouse knows the summary.
They don't have to know every sentence and every detail. Detail. You know, let's just even talk about that example of I had an inappropriate thought.
Well, I don't have to know who it was and what you were thinking and all the nitty-gritty details or something in my past. I don't need to know exactly what you did and how you did it, but I just need to have a general idea of where you're struggling, and you need to have a general idea of where I'm struggling. It's accountability and it's also freedom. You know, I think there's something here for the church as well. But what if it started in our marriages?
Hey friends, Ron Deal here. Did you know that for 50 years, Family Life has been working around the world and in your backyard to teach couples, parents, and families how to love God and love one another? And thousands of churches utilize a Family Life resource to teach biblical principles for life and love in their community. And thanks to people like you, this work continues to help people pursue the relationships that matter most with God and with others. Become a Family Life Partner Today because right now every new monthly gift is matched for an entire year.
Double your gift at FamilyLifetoday.com or call us at 1-800-FL Today. That's 1-800-FL Today. Here's a question for you. And you're a therapist, so I'd love to hear your thought. A husband tells his wife after he's prayed one night, I just prayed to God, I'd rather be dead than married to you.
Ah! Should he say that? This was our conversation. This was my first year. Were you the honest one?
I said that, and I said it because we were told before marriage: share every thought you ever had. I'm noticing some things about you, Dave. I really am. Oh, what are you noticing? I don't know if I want to.
I'm noticing a lot of spiritual lingo. used to kind of Tell her what you really needed to tell her. Like, remember when you said he brought you a list that he prayed about, and now you're praying again? You're spiritually infusing me, is what you're saying. You're disblaming God for a whole lot.
Well, the second it came out of my mouth, this is when the first nine months of our marriage. The second I said, and I said it because we're supposed to be totally honest. I don't want to hide anything. Yeah, as soon as it came out, I looked at her when I saw her face just drop. I was like, that was stupid.
That's one of those things that I didn't need to be that specific about. I really had just said that because we were really struggling. You were annoyed, too. And that's the difference. I'm not sharing my honest opinion about what he needs to work on and change and what I don't like about him.
This is an honest assessment of me, what I'm doing, what I'm struggling with, where I'm at. It's not me assessing him. It's easy to be honest about assessing my spouse. Here's what you got to work on. But how.
The key to freedom, I think, is learning to give that honest assessment to ourselves, taking the plank out of our own eye. It is that we have to do that. Before we take the ability of exposing this is who I am, and it's not pretty. And having our spouse continue to receive us is the gospel. I think it's really cool that.
What you're modeling for us and every couple can be done by anybody. I mean, part of me is like, well, you're a therapist, so you're really good at this. Like, no, any husband and wife, if they have the guts and the courage to say, let's do a check-in to be honest. This can really change their marriage. And I think a great starting point is you look at your own life and think about what's one thing I want to do better in, or what's one thing I want to get better in.
You know, if you're a parent who gets super angry. Choose that. Just check in that week, say, Hey, how was you know? I struggled with anger this week with the kids. I responded this way, or when you told me this, there's, you know, I think if you look at yourself, we each have one thing that we usually struggle with or tend to go to.
That's a great starting point, you know. And it's not going to magically change one day. Yeah. You know, it's a process of years and years. And then it's also building in the accountability.
So being open about things. Like one of the things that we talked about for protecting your interactions, like Deb and I are very deliberate about, like, I haven't deleted my internet history the entire time I've had my computer for seven years. She has total freedom. She can look at my phone. She can look at my computer.
I have nothing I'm afraid of her to see.
So, we've gone from guarding your emotions.
Now, you're looking at how you guard your actions. Your interactions. Your interactions. Your interactions. Okay.
And what about you, Deb? What's that look like? What else do you guys do?
Well, you know, just even in the ministry world, you're meeting a lot of people, and there's so many opportunities to connect with people of the opposite sex.
So we're always cautious about not accepting invitations where we're going to be alone with someone of the opposite sex. I mean, it's really not a big deal to throw in a third party. And it's not even because we're worried or we don't trust each other.
Some of it also is just so that there's no opportunity for anyone else to think something might be happening that's not. Not even giving a hint. Not even a hint of an opportunity or a misunderstanding, you know?
So we're just really careful with our interactions. If there's someone I'm interacting with on a regular basis via email or text, I'm always telling him what's going on. He's always telling me. We loop each other in. I mean, in marriage, you're one.
Seeing that in the context of your interactions with people, it isn't weird to CC him into an email because we're one. Dave and I do that all the time. I'll just include him on the text if it's with another guy and like, hey, Dave's on this. And it's just become a habit for us.
Some people think it's ridiculous, but you're right. We're one. And my world is Dave's world. And we don't want to disclude one another from that. And the last one, you talk about time, like guarding your time.
What's that look like? This is the trickiest one. And I think something that we struggle with the most in the world because. Within seconds, you can be on your phone in the same room, but doing completely different things. John can be playing chess, I can be on Instagram, and the time passes just like that.
So I think protecting your time is one of the Most important things that you can do for yourself. We really have struggled with this just because screen time is just so accessible, where it's in our hands, we can work, we can do emails, we can play games, and we have found that to be isolating at times.
So, you're saying the same thing.
So, how do you do it? Yeah, I think it's realizing that anytime you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. You just be aware of the choices you're making.
So, with technology, you know, I try sometimes, and I'm guilty of this. I'm on my phone in the evenings checking things, but being deliberate about okay, this next hour through dinner, whatever, I'm my phone on the desk. There's nothing really urgent I actually have to get to. You know, I don't need to know this fact on Google immediately. I can wait, you know?
So it's putting our phone on. You don't need to know what the score is of the game at that moment. I'm not even going to look over there. He's like, that's why I have the watch app.
So I actually can look indiscreetly. Hilarious. The other thing, too, is just learning to do things together, like our hobbies, instead of having separate hobbies, doing things that we both like. I did a survey of a thousand married couples, and over 50% of them said they have separate hobbies and interests. Think about how much time is spent in separate things with the little time you have that you could actually be doing something together.
So we've learned to take up things that the other likes or learn about something that the other person likes or do something together that's new for both of us and just kind of learning to guard our time in that way. I felt like I should probably start playing golf. You don't have to play golf. Tennis is good enough for me. Or you can both take up something new together.
That's true. And it also looks really different in different seasons. You know, when I was working, you know, at one point in my training, a hundred hours a week, We had young children under five. The reality is, when you have no time, you have no time for hobbies.
So, you need to accept, I can't go out golfing for six hours. You know, that's just a poor choice that's going to separate me from my wife.
So, when you don't have time, you don't have separate time. Yeah, that's just the reality. And I think sometimes as Americans, we try to squeeze everything in: go, go, go, go. We don't pause and stop. And that's where we tried to be deliberate about choosing hobbies together.
Like, we'll go for walks, we'll go hiking. I love playing chess, random game. She learned how to play chess so she could play with me. I don't love it, but I've learned how to do it. Look at you, Go.
That's awesome. Yeah. And I think, you know, ultimately, this idea of trust, the fruit of it is that you end up experiencing the deepest joy, pleasure, satisfaction greater than any of these other things appear to give you, but you get to experience in your marriage.
Well, I mean, I think as I'm listening, the whole idea of protecting your marriage, when you choose to do that, It builds trust. That's probably the biggest thing I'm hearing: is like when you say, My life is not mine, it's ours. And so, my interactions, you're gonna know. My internet history, you're gonna know. My conversation with other people, my time, my emotions, that builds trust.
And a marriage has to be built on trust. And if I'm withholding that, that creates distrust. And then the marriage starts to fall apart.
So, what a great gift this conversation, I think, has been for couples to say, okay, you have given us really practical I mean, even if couples just said, Okay, let's start with the Sunday night or Monday night, whatever. Whatever night works, or day, do a check-in and say, I'm going to be open with my heart and my life to you. That's going to start something new in a marriage that could save the marriage. Every single one is like a string, a new string that connects you to your spouse. The more you have, the more deliberate you have, the stronger your marriage is.
And I love that you guys have been incredibly intentional about your relationship and about your family. It's inspiring to see how God's using you. And I love having John on the broadcast. Yeah. Thank you guys.
Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Okay, I love these guys. Deborah's amazing. She's been in here several times, but when you get John or her husband to come in with her, it's like the jackpot.
It is. And Deborah's book is called Choosing Marriage: Why It Has to Start with We Over Me. And you can get your copy by clicking the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
