I would have said, if you asked me, what's the problem with your marriage? I would have said, it's him.
It's him. If you would get us back together, we could be great. And yet, I felt like I've made my marriage and Dave an idol, thinking that he could make me happy. He could fulfill me.
It's his fault. Man, I was convicted. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com.
This is Family Life Today. You know, we were recently on Theresa Whiting's podcast called Find Hope Here. She was actually a guest here. And a listener of Family Life Today. Yeah, she listens pretty much every single day.
It was great to have her on here. But then she flipped the table, says, Hey, I have a podcast. I was on your show.
Will you be on my show? And so what was interesting is she said, I watched your 10 year anniversary story when she was a young married woman with her husband at A Weekend to Remember. And she asked us to retell it.
And so I don't think we've done it in a long time. We often refer to our 10 year anniversary story, but we went into a little bit deeper into the details of the real turning point for us. Yeah, it's really a miracle story that you've heard us reference, but we're guessing there's some new listeners saying, what are they talking about?
So guess what? Today, you're going to hear the whole thing. And there's a lot going on. And we hope you hear it and are encouraged because we almost didn't make it, but God, but God showed up and basically saved our marriage. And we're sitting in these seats today because of what happened in that moment.
So get a cup of coffee or workout or take a walk or do what you want to do. But I'd say, you know, lean in a little bit because this is a story that of God's redemption. Yeah. And hopefully the same kind of thing is happening in your life as well. Well, welcome friends. I am so excited to introduce you to Dave and Ann Wilson today. Dave and Ann, I have been just so excited about this opportunity to talk to you both. And so I want to welcome you. And before we jump into the questions, just tell the listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do. Who are we? I don't know, but we're glad to be with you. Literally married 44 years. Wow.
No, we just hit 44 in May. Grew up in Ohio. Her dad was my high school coach in sports.
So I knew her and her family, but she was three years younger. You know, in high school, it's a big deal. I'm not dating a freshman when I'm a senior. Cause you're too cool. I was too cool.
I thought I was cool. Anyway, been married 45 years, three boys, six will be seven grandkids by the time this airs. And we actually started a church in Detroit, Michigan area in 1990.
So was pastor there and founder for 30 years. And then the last five, now six years, we're the co-host of Family Life Today, which is a radio podcast that's been on the air for 40 years. We've been speaking for the weekend to remember marriage conferences for, we don't even know how long, 30, 35 years.
Wow. Well, that's kind of how I first encountered you two was I was at a family life weekend to remember. And I remember so vividly, like I remember the room I was sitting in when we watched your video, it was your story that you tell. Our 10 year anniversary story. Yes, which I want you to share in just a minute.
But I remember thinking this was probably back in early 2000s and I don't feel like people back then were yet being very vulnerable. You know, you'd go to these conferences and there was a lot of like six steps to a happy marriage. And you guys got on there and you were like, here's our story. And it resonated with me so, so strongly. And when I knew I would have the opportunity to interview the two of you, I said, I know exactly what I want you to talk about. Because you were the one we don't know yet.
So it's a mystery. So basically, I felt like the two of you showed so much vulnerability and honesty. And I'd love to talk to you today about what is it like and what is so important about being vulnerable in a marriage, in a relationship?
Because it's hard and it's not common, but it's something that I saw in the two of you from the first like interaction we ever had. And so maybe you can just start by sharing your story with the listeners. Yeah. And it's basically year 10. We're just getting ready to start this church. I'm living my dream. I'm Detroit Lions chaplain for that would have been my fifth year with the team and met this buddy. And we said, we got to start this church. And we got so excited and got a little core group together. And we started dreaming, you know, of a church that could be different than any church we've been a part of to reach unchurched men.
That was our target and our hope. And long story short, we go out for a date night to celebrate 10 years. And I planned several surprises on the date.
So I was Mr. Romance. Nice restaurant, really nice restaurant. And back then, we never went to nice restaurants because we didn't spend any money.
We didn't have any money. Yeah. And so this was like, we're going to spend some real money at a real restaurant. And so I had 10 roses that I hid from Ann and gave to the waiter and said, will you bring one rose at a time when I give you sort of a look? And so he'd drop a rose on the table and we talked about year one, then the second rose year two.
It was pretty cool. And so anyway, I am literally at that point in our marriage thinking our marriage is awesome. On a scale of one to 10, we're at least a 9.98.
I mean, we're up there and this night is just to celebrate all that. And so we're driving home. And my last surprise was let's pull into the parking lot of this middle school that Ann didn't know that we had just signed a contract to rent their cafeteria for our church. We had two boys at that time, four and a two year old boy. OK, so they were home with the babysitter and I just thought we could pull in this parking lot.
It's almost midnight and pray that God would do something great in this little church we're going to start. And then I just thought we should go parking. And I'm hoping your watchers and listeners know what parking is. And I don't know what I was thinking. I was ambitious.
It was a Honda Accord. But I thought it was a perfect night. And anyway, I don't even think we prayed. I just remember turning in the front seat of this Honda Accord and tried to kiss Ann and she turned away. And obviously I thought she just didn't realize I'm trying to kiss her because I mean, come on, roses, romance, talking, all the stuff.
So I kiss her again and she literally turns her face. And so I just said, is something wrong? Thinking there's nothing wrong.
I mean, what could be wrong? And so I said no, because it was a great night and I knew, like, he'd put a lot of effort into this, a lot of money. And so I didn't want to wreck the evening, but he kept pressing me.
Oh, I knew something was going on. So I said, what do you mean? I tried to kiss you. You don't want to kiss me? And I said, Dave, I've lost all my feelings for you. I have nothing left.
I don't feel anything for you. And then there's this quiet and I'm thinking we've had this roundabout. Have you ever been in fights where the same topic just keeps coming up and it's a carousel issue, they call it. And this was our issue. And so I would say something, he'd get mad defensive. I would get mad defensive and we just could never get anywhere. So I thought, here it goes, we're going to get a big fight for the rest of the night.
And so I was thinking, like, we're at a one, probably a 0.5 in my estimation. And the fact that he thought we were a 10, I'm like, this shows you, like, of how clueless you are in terms of where I am and where our family is and what I'm feeling. But I felt like he was so about this church and all the other things.
He was so present with everyone else and he would come home and give nothing. And then I'm getting ready for him to get mad at me and be defensive, but he doesn't. And so then I just keep going. Yeah. I mean, I sort of said, what do you mean you've lost your feelings?
I was shocked. So you thought you were at a 10. Did you guys have a number discussion? Like, I think we're a 10 and I think we're a one. Later we did. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I just assumed there's no way we're not a 10 or a 9.8. I mean, it's just like, and when she said that, I was shocked. So I said, what do you mean you lost your, I mean, I just had no idea.
So then she said, what she, you know, journey she'd sort of been on. I said, I started out so angry because you're never home. You're not participating.
You're giving your best to everybody else. And I said, I started out so angry. My anger turned to bitterness. My bitterness turned to resentment.
And then my resentment turned to nothingness. I don't even care anymore. I don't care that you're gone. I don't care about anything.
I don't care if we make it honestly. And I didn't say I was going to leave him because I'm a believer. So I'm like, this is it.
This is what our marriage is going to be. So you were kind of just that this is what it is. Yeah. I don't care anymore. Yep. And I'm going to pour into the kids because we've got nothing going on. So as you can see, it's a long story. So that's when the miracle happened. So she's.
Well, you, he was so mad. She's talking that and I am starting to do what we always do. I'm going to defend her. I mean, when she said you're never home, I was reaching in the back seat where my day planner was.
People today don't use day planners. It's all digital, but it was on a paper and a calendar and it's in the back seat. And I know it can prove I have been home more than she's saying right now because she's like, you're never home. I'm like, and I'm literally reaching for it because I'm going to pull it out and we're going to be on.
You know, it's going to be, oh, yeah, look, Tuesday night I was home and, you know, and I'm reaching back. And it's the strangest thing I could ever explain. I don't know how to explain it. The Holy Spirit of God. Can he communicate?
Yeah. And I didn't hear an audible voice, but it was very loud and she doesn't know what I'm doing. She's just talking.
I'm going like this, trying to find my thing. And I feel like God said, don't you touch your planner. Shut up. So I just brought my hand back and said, well, tell me more. And she explained what she was doing. And then I heard one word three times from God. And again, it was mysterious, but it wasn't weird. It was like he can communicate. And I knew it was my father. I knew he was saying, repent, repent, repent. And she's talking.
So it's a strange thing. I'm listening to her on a horizontal level and I'm listening to God on a vertical level. And of course she doesn't know I'm hearing anything. I'm just like, you know, I'm hearing this journey from anger to bitterness to resentment to numbness. Like I could feel like she's done.
Like we are not going to make it unless something happens. And so I hear repent and I knew what God meant by repent. You know, your husband's a preacher. I'm a preacher. I'm guaranteed he knows metanoia, the Greek for repent, change your mind and go a different direction. And I preached that it was a different nuance of repent. It was so personal and it was firm, but it was gentle and loving at the same time.
I could feel God's heart was, you've lost your first love. You're doing all kinds of stuff for me. You haven't met with me in a long time. And if you think this marriage is going to be solved by you just being a better husband, you know, it's not going to work. You got to get right with me.
You got to put me back where I need to be in first place on the throne. And when you do that, this marriage has a chance. This marriage is not going to be solved by you being a better husband. This marriage is going to be solved by you putting me back where I need to be.
Hey, I think what we're talking about is great. And as you're listening, if there's something on today's episode that you're just clicking with, we want you to know that you're not alone because every single marriage has its fair share of highs, but also lows. And if you're like us, you're wondering where do we get help?
Well, first of all, you're getting help right now. And we're thankful that you're listening. But we also want to share one of our favorite resources. It's a free guide that's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real couples.
So you can grab your copy today at familylife.com slash marriage help for your free guide full of marriage tips. So anyway, Anne finished and I knew I wanted to right then and there and I knew all that was true. I had just been running to this and that. I hadn't been in God's word in months. I was in it to get a sermon, you know, and get people go, hey, or a Bible study. And so I was like, I got to get right with God.
So she finished and I said, hey, I need to hear more and we need to talk because we did. But I need to do something right now. You don't.
But I do. And I'm going to do it right here, right now. I just felt like I want to be in full submission. So I thought I got to be on my knees. So to this day, I don't know how I got on my knees in the front seat of a Honda Accord, but I pushed the driver's seat back and I turned around and I just prayed out loud.
And I just prayed a simple prayer like, God, I repent. You are not number one. I am. My ministry is. It's not my ministry.
It's yours. So I put you back on the throne and I'm asking you to make me the husband that she longs for and the dad my kids need. I repent.
Amen. And I turned to like, OK, let's talk. And I turn and she's on her knees.
I didn't know this because my eyes were closed. I look over and there she is. It's so funny, Teresa, because as Dave was praying, I would have said, if you asked me, what's the problem with your marriage? I would have said, it's him.
It's him. If you would get his act together, we could be great. And yet when he started praying out loud, I felt so convicted. I felt like God was saying, Ann Wilson, you have been trying to get your life through your husband, through your marriage. Dave was never equipped or made to make you happy.
That is my job. And so I had felt like I've made my marriage and Dave an idol thinking that he could make me happy. He could fulfill me. It's his fault. Man, I was convicted because when we got married, we're like, no, we need to make Jesus number one. But it's easy not only to drift in marriage, but we can drift away from God too.
And I had just taken my eyes off of him. I had made other idols and I was looking for other things to fulfill me. And so I got down on my knees too and prayed the same kind of prayer of God. I've made my marriage an idol and Dave is not equipped to bring me joy and happiness. That's your job. So I put you back on the throne of my life. I make you Lord and King over everything and help us.
We don't know what to do from here. And that was the start of our healing process. Wow.
Wow. I've heard it before, but just like hearing it in person and getting chills. Just what a beautiful story of how the Holy Spirit spoke to you.
Like the honesty of you being willing to say this is what's going on. And then your willingness to pray that prayer of repentance out loud in front of Anne is I think a really big thing. And I think of the scripture, a gentle answer turns away wrath because he wasn't like defensive and he just started praying.
Oh, that was more powerful than anything that he could have done. Yes. Because you were probably like gearing up like, okay, here comes the fight.
Where do I defend myself? And not what you expected. Right. So tell us a little bit about what that journey looked like. I know you've written a whole book about it, but maybe like, what are some of the moments along the way or the things that people can take away of? This is what repentance looks like.
I mean, in some ways I would say, you know, that prayer wasn't like poof. You know, we drove home that night and the next day we woke up and it's like, wow, it was work. Because I had built a life that was outside the home. And one of the first things we both had to do is look at the calendar and go, what are we doing? What am I doing?
I need to be home. I need to cut some things out of my life. So a big part of it was saying yes to repenting to God and then saying no to good opportunities and things I was doing that I need to say no to, to be the husband she needed and the dad my little boys needed. And I think too, we both got back in the word and it's hard. Like I had a four and two year old boy and then I was pregnant a few months later.
And so that's hard to figure out. How do I get that time in there with Jesus? But man, it was kind of that pray without ceasing. I'm praying all day as I'm doing things.
I have the Bible anywhere. I'm just, I'm listening to it actually even. And so that was a big piece of it, trying to find my contentment through Christ. And then with Dave and I, we started dating and we started being more intentional with our date nights. Like, how are we doing?
How are you doing? Instead of like talking about our kids or talking about money things or stressful things, we were just more intentional. And I think the thing that started happening to me even a few years later, this is big for me and I'm writing a book right now on it.
It just finished the manuscript. My words, I was trying to change Dave through nagging, through criticism. You're right. I'm pretty real, but I'm too honest sometimes. And the way I say things are not great. And God gives us, it says the power of life and death is in the tongue.
And I wasn't using my tongue to build up. I'm like, he's fine. Everybody's like, oh Dave, you're amazing. Oh Pastor Dave.
I'm like, dude, I see the real you. I need to like let you know these are the things that need a little tweaking. Not tweaking.
A lot more than tweaking. And so God really started to get a hold of me. I've gone through this journey of trying to use my words to build up. This is with our kids too, because it's just easy to see the things that need to be changed in our kids. I do it with myself, even with the words I say to myself, like what are you doing?
So God has really gotten a hold of my tongue. I think that has helped too over the years. I would just add when we started dating again, because we always said we should date. We teach it at the weekend to remember.
And yet you got to put it on the calendar and say no to other stuff to get out. But one of the things that I realized I needed to do is on that date, say to Ann, okay, on a scale of one to ten, what are we? Because I think we're a ten. Do you always think you're a ten? I always think we're great.
Because I don't like conflicts, so let's just avoid it and say we're good. That was so humble of him. I was amazed when he said that. I'm like, whoa, that is just brave, man, for you to do that. Because I knew that she would have a lower number, and I also knew she knew how to get that number higher.
Because he would say like, what do you think we need to do to get that number higher? Is that like so? That's a good answer.
Yes, I know. And then you had to do it. It's one thing to have a conversation.
It's like, okay, how are we going to do this? But seeing him pursue me in that way, those are little things that reignite those feelings. Because feelings come and go. We don't base our marriage on our feelings. It's on the vow that we took. It's on the love that we give each other, which is a choice. But it does help to ignite those feelings.
Yes. So I imagine that there are a lot of listeners right now that are resonating with both of you, you know, in so many ways. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about, because you're talking about some scary stuff, being really honest with each other, being vulnerable. How does the gospel shape your willingness to be vulnerable with each other?
I mean, that's why we named our book Vertical Marriage. It all starts vertically with Jesus, with the gospel. The beauty of the gospel is that God sees all of us. He sees every flaw, every nuance of our sin. And yet he wants us to repent and to come to him. We don't hear that word very often, repent, do we? I think we're in a time where, like, we're good.
We're good, right? But coming before God in humbleness, like, I have nothing, God. I've sinned. I've sinned against you. Having that heart, I can't do anything apart from him.
And I think what has helped me the most is going before him daily in surrender. I give you my life. I give you my tongue. Give me your eyes. Give me your ears. Help me to say what you would say.
And so it's that position of surrender every day. And even to ask God, like, Father, what should I say? Should I say something truthful to Dave? And here's what I never prayed before. How should I say it? When should I say it? What does that look like?
Because as soon as I think something, I generally say it. And that is not good, Teresa. You know that. I need this book. I need this book. And so just to take the time, I'm bringing Jesus into every aspect of marriage.
He's partnering with me in it. And so I think that's bringing in the gospel into every single nook and cranny to not let anything go without his notice. Yeah, essentially, I didn't think of it that night in the car, but when I felt Jesus saying, Repent, later I'm like, Oh, you know, when you read the Book of Revelation and he talks to the church at Ephesus who, guess what? They lost their first love.
What's he telling them to do? Repent and do the things you did at first. And so in some ways, our marriage was saved by repentance and doing the things we did at first. I mean, he's talking about your spiritual walk, do the things you did at first.
But the same thing applies to your marriage. So it was like, I needed to go back and do the things I did at first when I first fell in love with Jesus. I was in his word every day. I wasn't in his word to get a sermon or lead a Bible study. I was in his word to know him and to know his word and to let him speak to me. And so it was that simple to say, okay, disciplines of the spiritual walk that you used to do. Same thing we do for our body if we want to be in shape. I got to get up and I got to get to the gym. Well, here's the gym. So part of that was reorienting.
Again, I just got lazy. And I think a lot of us in ministry can do that. Ministry becomes something we do out of our, we just get good at it and we can pull it off. And it's like, it's not working if it's not an overflow of your walk with God. And your marriage won't work either unless it's really, I've been with Jesus today and because of that, I'm going to treat her differently.
I'm going to serve her and love her like Christ loved the church rather than want from her and get from her because I'm depleted. No, God has filled me. That's what vertical marriage means is you're filled vertically. You're not looking to your spouse or your marriage anymore to be the one that fills you. You're overflowing into them.
And that's a different way to do marriage. And we're tired. Let's just say, I mean, people are tired. If you have little kids, you just want to watch Netflix.
We're just tired. But to put that time in to be with God, to make sure that that's a priority. We don't have a good marriage unless he is first. I love listening to Dave and Ann's story because they're always so transparent and forthright about the mistakes that they've made in the past. It really helps me to learn from their losses and their wins in a way that shapes how I approach marriage and parenting.
I love them and I'm so grateful for them. I'm Shelby Abbott and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson as they've been talking with Teresa Whiting on Family Life Today. Do you follow us on social media? Well, you can head over to Instagram and Facebook. Just look on Instagram for Family Life Insta and you'll be able to find us pretty quickly. Also, just search for Family Life on Facebook and you'll be able to follow us there for more regular encouragement. Now, tomorrow, discover how the Needhams, a Christian family, transformed Halloween into an opportunity for gospel outreach with things like king-sized candy bars and a prayer table for their community.
You don't want to miss that as we're in the month of October. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
