Across Africa, millions of Christians are suffering a Bible famine. They hunger for God's Word, but there simply aren't enough Bibles. Today, Timothy Project is close to launching Africa's first Bible web press. To help complete this project, visit timothyproject.info. Like, shake yourself of that deception of thinking this was a mistake.
God brought you together; He's going to help you through it.
So, if you need help, ask for it. If there's something you need to address, do it. Don't just sit there in the deception and let it pull you to apart. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, New York Times best-selling author of "The 5 Love Languages" .
Today, you make so many preparations for I do, but what happens that first year after the ceremony is over? Pastor and author Mike Novotny has encouragement for those just married or those planning a wedding, and everyone who loves that couple. His book is our featured resource at BuildingRelationships.us, titled "Newlywed: A Christian Guide for Loving Year One." Just go to buildingrelationships.us. And Gary, this has been one of the notes that you've been playing in your song over and over. You have to be intentional about that first year of marriage.
Absolutely, Chris. And I think so many couples go into that first year of marriage thinking it's going to be heaven because they're so in love. You know, I remember that's the way I felt, and. But there's so many things that you have to adjust to in a marriage, and this book is going to help a lot of people. In fact, I was thinking through it.
I thought every pastor ought to have these books on the shelf, and when a couple gets married, you ought to give them one. You know, and it's it's I'm excited about this book and our discussion today.
Well, let's meet our guest. Mike Novotny is pastor at the Core in Appleton, Wisconsin. He's also lead speaker for the Media Ministry Time of Grace. He and his wife Kim have two daughters. Mike has written a number of thought-provoking books, including Three Words That Will Change Your Life, What's Big Starts Small, and his latest is our featured resource at BuildingRelationships.us Newlywed, a Christian guide for loving year one.
Again. Find out more at buildingrelationships.us.
Well, Mike, welcome to Building Relationships, Doctor Chapman. It is so great to be here. Thanks for having me.
So, tell me about how you and Kim met, and how the two of you and you knew that you wanted to take the next step into marriage. Give it a little bit of your history there. Yeah, so when I was growing up, girls really scared me. In fact, they they scared me so much that I didn't talk to many girls when I was a freshman in high school, and then a sophomore, and then a junior. For my senior prom, how about this?
Instead of going to a dance with a girl, I watched Star Wars with my friend Tim. I was relationally challenged. Never mind the love languages. I I didn't have any words to speak to any girls. But then I go to college.
I go to this little Bible college in Minnesota, and at the freshman mixer, I see these two cute girls on the other side of the field as I'm walking across it. And I honestly thought both of them were attractive. I thought, "Hey, new chapter of life. I'm going to talk to a girl." And literally, as I'm walking up, this guy comes swooping in from the left, starts talking to the girl on my left, and so I veered right, and actually veered right into the arms of my future wife.
So I don't know, God works in mysterious ways. That's where we met at the freshman mixer in the 1900s, 1999, and now we've been married for 23 years. My first ever girlfriend became my first and only wife.
Well, that's wonderful. That doesn't always happen. Yeah, this is true. Did you two spend more time, like I did, planning your wedding than you did preparing for the marriage? Oh my goodness!
For sure, we had a little bit of premarital counseling at the Bible college we went to. I have a hunch, though, the premarital counseling was a touch like my first two years of seminary. Where I kind of assumed I I was going to be a good pastor, yeah, I had to take the classes, but you know I love Jesus, I knew the Bible pretty well, I cared about people, everything's going to be fine, right? And then and then it took just one year of a pastoral internship before the panic button went off, and I thought, oh my goodness, I I don't know anything about anything.
So yeah, I mean I'm sure Kim and I were super naive, and just thought if we love God and we love each other, it's going to be great. Yeah, and some of it was, but we found out there were a lot more roadblocks and challenges that we hadn't even anticipated. Yeah, you know, my wife and I had the similar thing. I don't even remember hearing the word preparation for marriage, you know, or premarital counseling. I don't, I don't ever remember that.
And we had one hour with the pastor who married us. And almost all that was just talking about the wedding, you know.
So, and I've found that's been true of a lot of lot of couples.
So, why do you think we spend so much energy on the wedding, and not on preparation for the marriage that follows the wedding? Yeah, you know, I don't want to be too negative or pessimistic, but here's my answer. I think most people getting married don't actually believe the third page of the Bible. I don't think they really deeply believe that the fall into sin so catastrophically affected the human heart that to actually love selflessly another human being. Not for an hour or two or a week or two, but for decades upon decades, that you would need so much help.
You need so you would need to read "The 5 Love Languages" cover to cover backwards in four different languages. You're going to need a village of people. You're going to need like counseling books. Like you're going to need so many resources to do it well. And and you're naive and arrogant to think I got this.
I can love this. I I can keep these vows on my own. And I think because of that. We pour ninety percent of our energy into the flowers, the guest list for the day, the dresses, the tuxedos, the DJ, and we really don't like resource ourselves for the bigger and more important battle, which is to love our spouse like Christ first loved His church. Yeah, yeah.
Well, now you've been married for more than twenty years, as you noted earlier.
So, what surprised you most about what marriage actually requires? Yeah, I like the inflection of your voice there. Actually, yeah, Kim and Kim and I have this little rhyme that has explained every great season of our marriage and every hard season of our marriage. And the rhyme is this: Me first makes a mess, but you first makes us blessed. What does marriage actually require?
Every time I get stuck on me, what does Mike want? What does Mike think? Why is Mike's opinion the better opinion? It, it, it never works. I've never sat down with Kim and say, "Just let me let me change you, so you can be like me, because I'm right and you're wrong." Pride begets pride, and a selfish person ends up fighting with another selfish person.
But, but you first. What does marriage actually require? When I'm selfless. When I'm the first to own my part, when I, by the grace of God, stay humble, when I can apologize for not speaking her love language or serving her well, man, when I'm thinking primarily of Kim, it just has a way of coming back. It's—I don't want to call it relational karma, but there's something about the law of the harvest in marriages that you reap what you sow.
And I've never, as a pastor, had to counsel too deeply humble people. No one shows up at the pastor's office and says, "Well, she's humble," and the wife says, "And he's humble," but we're having all these problems. Like, no, there's just something about humility. God gives grace to the humble, but He opposes the proud.
So, what does marriage require? I think it's it's two humble people. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that reminds me of the new newest book that I released back in January with Les and Leslie Parrott, called "The Most Important Love Language," because people pick it up and say, "Oh, I wonder which one it is. I wonder which one it is." And in the first paragraph, we say, "The most important love language is the love language of your partner." Yes, yes, yes. Because by nature, yeah, people read my book and they get the love language, and then three months later they say, "Now listen, you know my love language, and if you love me, you would be giving my love." Yes, that is. It can become a weapon. Yeah, yeah.
It's right. We're self-centered. Yeah.
So, what is the single most dangerous thing that couples can bring into marriage, and then how do you how do you deal with it? Yeah.
So before I wrote this book, I did two things because I had been married for about two decades. I wanted to sit down with people who are brand brand new into marriage.
So I took out ten newlywed couples from our church, just couple by couple, coffee by coffee, and I probed them with this question. The question was, "What did you think marriage was going to be like?" And then, "What was it actually like?" And I tried to take their answers, and like the gap between expectations and reality, kind of turned into the chapters about faith or communication or sex or chores or screens or date nights. But the second thing I did, and this is my answer to your question, is I interviewed some professional Christian counselors. One of them named Teresa goes to our church, and she had the best quote. She said, "Mike, every married couple has two problems.
Number one." They have expectations they haven't expressed to their spouse. Number two, they're ninety-nine percent sure those expectations are correct.
So, so I haven't told you, you know, how many times I expect to be intimate, or how I expect to spend time with my family versus your family during Christmas. I haven't told you what I expect when it comes to like when can I pull up my phone, how much time can I be on it. How clean does the house have to be? How often are we just going to hang out, me and you, versus with your parents or with our friends? We have this like long list of expectations.
Often they're not like biblically right or wrong, good and evil, but we bring like a hundred expectations into a relationship. We haven't expressed them yet, and we're pretty sure they're like the right answer at the end of the day. And when our spouse doesn't do that or doesn't expect the same things, that gap. I think is what leads to so much miscommunication, so much fights, and so much distance.
So that's why I really wrote this book as a way of seeking together with good communication and lots of faith, mutually agreed upon expectations. Boy, I think that's so powerful, and I think that's why I meant I said earlier. I think this book is going to help so many couples because it's just it's just so practical. You write, and I'm quoting here that mutually agreed upon expectations are everything. End of quote.
What does that look like in real life, Dr. Chapman? God taught me this lesson easily the first year of my marriage, if not the first month. Kim and I get married in 2003. We get this little apartment outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and she makes this amazing meal.
I can still picture the little round table in our small kitchen. We're probably paying 300 bucks a month for rent, and she makes this amazing meal. I enjoy every bit of it. I try to compliment her and use my words, and then after I'm done, I take my dishes and I walk them over across this really small kitchen, and I set them down next to the sink, and I start walking to the living room. And Kim says to me, "What are you doing?" And based on the tone of her voice, I realized this was not a question.
This was this was about to get escalated. And I said, "I'm going to relax. I'm going to watch TV. I'm going to relax." And she said, "Well, why did you put your dishes there?" And I said, "Because I was trying to be a good husband." Here's what I didn't realize. I grew up in a home.
My dad was in the banking world in real estate. My mom stayed at home. My mom would both prepare the meals and clean up after the meals were over. And what I grew up seeing for decades was that my dad enjoyed the meals. Hopefully, he said thank you for the meals, and then he didn't even take the dishes out.
My mom did that, so I thought I thought I was going above and beyond. Is I was waiting for Kim to just applaud me, like thank you, Jesus, that I married through this amazingly kind man. Oh, but I found out Kim brought a different expectation into the relationship. She grew up with two working parents, and her parents' rule was. Whoever cooks doesn't clean up for a single second.
So, if I made the meal and put in the work, now I get to relax, and you get to do the work, and you get to wash the dishes, put them in the dishwasher, so on and so forth.
So, you know what happened? Why did we end up with this tense fight? It's because we both brought an expectation, which was neither right or wrong. There's no Bible passages about what to do with dishes, but we hadn't expressed it. We hadn't talked it through.
We hadn't come up with an agreed upon version for our situation.
So that. That's so much about what it is. Like, have I have I told you what I think? Have I shared how I grew up? What I expect?
Have I asked the right questions so I can learn about your heart and experiences, so that we we can have like the same play that we're both trying to run in this specific situation. Yeah, boy, I think couples can identify with that who have been married a while. I remember, I told my wife, you know how nice she looked and all these things, and give her positive words. And one night she said, "You keep on saying I love you. If you love me, why don't you help me?" I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "Well, you don't ever offer to wash the dishes, or vacuum the floors, or or clean the toilets, or anything." And I didn't say this, Mike, but what I was thinking was.
What are you talking about? My mother did those things. This is exactly what you were saying, you know, and your your relationship. We have different different patterns. Yeah, this is so.
This is so. Let's go to another topic: the sex and intimacy part of marriage. You open up in the book about your own struggles with sex and intimacy.
So, talk more about that and why you decided to be vulnerable and open. You know. About that struggle, yeah. Thanks for asking. If there is one thing that Kim and I struggled with throughout our marriage for not just a few weeks, but years, if not a decade plus, it was figuring out sex.
I think a lot of it was my fault, unfortunately, because of my own lack of self control and sinfulness. I brought over ten years worth of a pornography addiction into our marriage, and I'm super grateful that Jesus forgave me. And if we weren't saved by grace and through faith, I would be, I'd be cooked, as the kids say. I would, I would be in such trouble. But God is merciful and He's good, and because of Jesus, I am not condemned.
But there was a consequence, and the consequence I didn't realize when I said I do to Kim was that pornography had given me the expectation that sex should be easy. You know, in pornography, and I hope people listening don't know this, but sex is always easy in pornography. He looks at her. She looks at him. They're both ready to have sex.
They both have a good time. There's no difficulty. There's no patience required or self control. There's no cramps or headaches or crazy kids or long days at work or arguments you have before you crawl. Like there's not.
There's none of that. It would. It would take too long. And so I think what happened was after seeing so much of that for so many years, I thought. You know, I don't want Kim to do anything crazy.
That wasn't what pornography did to me. But when sex was actually like sex actually is, beautiful and difficult.
Sometimes you hit a home run.
Sometimes you strike out.
Sometimes you you barely make it to second. You know, sometimes it was great, and sometimes it just happens. And I thought that we were broken, or that something was wrong with her, or with me, or with us. I can remember the man. I feel so dumb saying this, but there's times like I'd start kissing Kim, and she just wasn't like didn't seem as excited as I was in the moment.
And I would just like stop, and I'd look her in the eye, and I'd ask, "Are you okay?" Which write write this down if you're listening at home. That is the least sexy question you could ever ask someone in the moment.
So you know, and what I found out was actually Kim and I were very normal. That often, when two people enter a relationship, they have different desires. You know, think of the love languages. I should tell you this: when we first took "The 5 Love Languages" test, I scored physical touch by like. I'd forget what the number was.
It was off the charts for me. Kim took the test, and physical touch wasn't even on her list. And I thought, "Oh, something is wrong with the report." And then I realized she scored a zero. She had her answers were zero.
So we we were just a classic couple where we had different desires, different preferences. We had to talk it through. We had to learn to be patient and kind, and selfless and sacrificial. And what I thought was abnormal because of what what porn did to my mind was actually very normal. And if we could just you know stay communicative, selfless, humble, we could actually have a great intimate relationship.
Which by the grace of God now we do. Yeah, that's that's wonderful.
Now in the book you discuss the difference between still talking about the sexual part of marriage.
Now the difference between spontaneous desire and responsive desire.
So, what is that difference, and why does every newlywed need to understand it? Yeah, man, I wish I could have told my newlywed self this. Spontaneous desire. This is stereotypical how guys are wired, but it's not all guys.
Some women are like this. It's like I wasn't thinking about sex, and then I came home from work and I saw you, and in a millisecond, I thought I could have sex right now. the the desire to be with you in an intimate way just comes spontaneously. It comes fast. It's like a Ferrari getting onto the interstate.
It can go from zero to seventy pretty quickly.
Now, if you have responsive desire, it doesn't mean you don't enjoy sex or you don't want sex. What happens though is that your body and your desire often responds after sex has started.
So, think back to the example I gave just a few minutes ago. When I asked Kim, "Are you okay?" She was okay. It was just taking time for her body to respond to that moment, so she could really enjoy it. Yeah.
And I think what happened with me is because, you know, I thought the way that I was wired was how all people were wired. That you know, when I would put a move on Kim or initiate intimacy, and she wouldn't do the same thing in return. You know, when when when I would see her getting ready in the morning, and just thought this is the most beautiful woman ever. And I could like change in front of her and jump into the shower, and I mean, she could, she could talk about what was for dinner, and not, and not be attracted in the same way. I thought, like, wow, do I, do I love you more than you love me?
Honestly, thought, are you? Is this rejection? And are you not attracted to me? And, and it was none of those things. I just didn't understand.
I mean, there's differences in the way that we're wired. And now that I know that Kim is a responsive desire, I don't panic. I don't get impatient. I just take my time, try to be a good lover to her, and we end up both enjoying the moment when it comes. Boy, I think couples who are listening can identify with that if they've been married, you know, three months.
Okay, now another big area is communication. And we certainly agree that it's a huge part of marriage.
So, what is the what is the stoplight method that you talk about? How does it change the way that couples talk to each other? Yeah, I can remember the very place where I came up with the stoplight method. Local coffee shop here in the city where I live, Appleton, Wisconsin. Brand new newlywed couple.
They got married really young. I think they were like nineteen, twenty, maybe twenty-one years old. Kind of quiet wife, big boisterous, lovable guy, and he says, Pastor Mike, I don't know how to be a good husband. I come home from work, and I see that my wife is just having a bad day, and I say, What's wrong? And she says nothing, and and I can, I like I know her, and I love her.
I know something's wrong, so I say, No, tell me what's wrong. And she says nothing, and so I keep pushing it to find out what's wrong, and then she gets really mad, and we have a big fight, and I don't know what to do. And I smiled and said, "Okay, first I have been there, and number two, here's what you need to know: that sometimes when your spouse is hurting, what they need is space. That's the red light, like stop. They don't want you to fix it.
They don't want to talk about it. They just need a little bit of moment to catch their breath. They just want to go to bed. It'll be better in the morning. That's the red light.
The yellow light is when they need sympathy." They don't want distance, but they don't want you to swoop in with a to-do list of how they should fix their problem. They just want someone to say that that that sounds brutal. I I can't believe they said that to you. Wow, that that's a hard day, and you already had a hard week before this. I'm I'm so sorry.
And then there's the green light, which is where they really want advice or solutions. I'm going through this thing with my mom or with my friend. Honey, what do you think I should do? And that's when they want you to give them a roadmap or a to-do list. And I said, here's the problem: some situations are green light solutions, yellow light sympathy, or red light space.
But in my experience, Doctor Chapman, when most guys are driving their truck or their car and they come to a yellow light, do you know what they do? Speed it! They they act like that thing is the brightest green out of all the greens that God ever made on His green earth.
So what what most guys do, maybe from a discomfort going into deep emotional places, is they offer solutions where their spouse wants either sympathy or space. And so I think a really effective thing to do you you can't read your spouse's mind, but sometimes when they come home and you sense something is wrong. It can be really helpful just to say, "Hey, I love you." Is this like a red light, yellow light, or green light moment? Do you want me to sit down and solve this with you? Do you just want someone to sit next to you?
Do you just need some space to yourself? And I think that puts you on the general path of how to love your spouse, Beth.
So that I can remember where that stoplight method came from, and I still still try to practice it in my own marriage to this day. Yeah.
Man, I think that idea would be helpful for every couple, if you've got the concept, you know, and it's easy to determine where they are in the situation. Yeah, yeah, but it's it's hard. Because you have to, you have to not be going with your foot on the gas pedal. You have to first of all be be connected with her or him, you know, your spouse, to the point where you're not just thinking about yourself, and then interpreting silence as, oh, well, you don't love me anymore, or you know, you're frustrated, whatever. You have to almost divest yourself, open your hands in a way to the relationship.
Right, Mike. Yeah, thousand percent. What do we say before? Me first makes a mess.
So, if this moment is about what I want or what I feel, it's going to get conversationally messy real quick. But if this is really about you, then I think I can start with a question and two listening ears. I can figure out you know the best path based on on your response. But if I'm making this about me in this moment, oh. I've learned from a bad experience that is the wrong path when it comes to tough conversations.
So, Mike, before we go further, let's go back to that red light and the green light and make sure that our listeners hear the difference between those three. Just go through them again quickly. Yep.
So, the red light is space. The yellow light is sympathy, and the green light is solutions. I can just step out of the room. I can say a prayer for you. That's red light.
I'm gonna sit down next to you, not solve it, but just say, "Wow, that's really difficult." I'm just gushing empathy because we're supposed to weep with those who weep. And the green light is, "I want to, I want to fix this problem. I need help. I don't know what to do. Would you listen?
Use your brain. Pray with me. Look to God, and come up with the next step that I can take." Great plan. You're listening to the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast, and remember, you can ask a question of our host on our monthly Dear Gary broadcast.
Call one eight six six four two four Gary and leave your message, and you might hear an answer on an upcoming broadcast. That's eight six six four two four four two seven nine. If you go to buildingrelationships.us, you'll find some great resources, a list of seminar locations. Great resources, a list of seminar locations coming up for Dr. Chapman.
See our featured resource, the book by Mike Navatney, Newly Wed: A Christian Guide for Loving Year One, and a lot more. Just go to buildingrelationships.us or fivelovelanguages.com.
Well, Mike, what do you say to couples who who love each other but they are not on the same spiritual page in their relationship with God? Oh, that's tricky. You know, ideally, you step into marriage and you're both seeking God with your whole heart. But as we all know, we don't live in Eden anymore.
Sometimes you fall in love with someone and you hope they're going to get more spiritual in the process. And sometimes they do.
Sometimes they don't.
Sometimes you come to faith after your wedding day, and now you're excited about church, about Bible reading, about prayer, about generosity. But your spouse isn't.
So, what do you do in that moment? I think back to when Jesus told his first disciples, "Come, follow me, and I will send you out to fish for people." This might seem like the oddest thing to say in a relationship program, but can can I just say a few words about fishing on the Sea of Galilee? Yeah.
All right. I just learned, actually, preached on this this past Sunday that Peter and Andrew and James and John would fish primarily for three kinds of fish. Really fast-moving schools of sardines, that was fish number one. Tilapia was fish number two, and these kind of bigger carp-like fish called barbels, that was fish number three. And what I learned from studying first-century fishing was that you had to fish for each one with a different technique.
So the sardines would come up actually in the middle of the night to the surface of the Sea of Galilee. They were drawn to lights. And so Peter wanted to catch them. He'd bring a torch. He'd wake up at like 1 a.m.
He'd get his boat out on the Sea of Galilee, and they would come swimming to the surface, and he threw out his big circular net to catch the sardines. The tilapia they didn't feed in the same way. They would feed often by the spots where the Jordan River entered and exited the Sea of Galilee. You could catch them with a hook or a spear. And then the barbels were these big boys who would often tear the nets.
And so what they would do is they'd bring a thicker net and they'd stretch it in between two boats.
So we sometimes hear about Peter and Andrew fishing with James and John, and they could drag this net and catch the different kinds of fish.
So why does that matter? Because there were different fish, you had to use different bait or different techniques.
So when you ask the question, like, what do you do if your spouse isn't on the same spiritual page? I think my first answer would be, "Well, tell me about your spouse. Maybe they're a person who didn't grow up in a Christian home, and they're not super excited about Jesus because they don't know about Jesus. And it's kind of a Romans chapter ten situation. You know, how can they believe unless they hear the good news, and how can they hear unless someone tells them?
So, what what should a spouse do?" You should tell them. You should. You should not assume that they have like seventeen objections to historic Christianity. You should just tell them what historic Christianity actually is, or say that isn't your spouse's situation. What if they did grow up in church?
They love their pastor, and then their pastor had a moral failure, and they were really burned and felt really betrayed, and they think, man, that the church is just full of hypocrites.
Sooner or later, you find that out. I think that's a First Peter three situation where Peter says to wives, if any of you have husbands that don't believe the word, you should win them over without words when they see the purity and reverence of your life.
So let your spouse see you up close, not being afraid when they're afraid, because you know the God who takes away fear. When they're beating themselves up for the past. You're moving forward with freedom because you know the grace of God is enough to cover all your sins. Let your light shine, and they're going to have a front row seat to see that. I don't think you can give blanket advice because every person who doesn't go to church or doesn't reach for a Bible in the morning or doesn't trust in Jesus probably has their own reason or list of reasons.
And I think you can use this first year if you're in that situation to figure out exactly what those reasons are, and then with the help of God, figure out the best way to fish.
So hopefully, they end up in the kingdom of God by your side. Yeah, that's great. That's great advice. You know, wow, because you're right. They can be a non-Christian, but have different backgrounds that are positive or negative related to Christians, and so, but our example is so important.
Well, how about the whole area of finances? Because we know that this often is a big issue in marriage.
Sometimes even leads to divorce.
So, where do couples most commonly go wrong in the first year of their marriage? Yeah, I think couples don't take the time to figure out their spouse's theology of money.
So you have some like deep, deep-seated beliefs. Maybe you're not even conscious of them, based on your experiences growing up. And I wonder, as you were like taking her out for coffee, or you were having your first dating anniversary dinner, I wonder if you ever explored like what do you actually believe deeply about money, about God, and about faith.
So let's take two examples. Let's imagine there's a guy. He grows up in a house with parents who are super conservative when it comes to money. They don't spend a billion dollars on Amazon every single Tuesday. They're really cautious.
They're thinking about the future. You know, they took the Dave Ramsey course, and they know if they invest a dollar now, 50 years from now, it's going to be like a billion dollars. Except, except, what happens if a guy growing up in that home has a dad who has a heart attack at age 58 and dies? You know what? Deeply does he viscerally feel about money?
He probably thinks, "Man, why would you risk like enjoying tomorrow when you don't know if you're going to get tomorrow? Why wouldn't I want to enjoy life with my family, with my? Why would I deprive them of a vacation or an experience when we might not be around in ten years?" And then he marries the woman who grew up in a household that was just the opposite, with mom and dad spending money before the check even made it to their bank account. And when she was a sophomore in high school, they couldn't pay the rent, and much to her embarrassment, she had to pack up all their stuff and leave to the other side of town.
So he marries her, and then the the first tax return comes. What does he think? Man, this is free money from Jesus. We we are going to go out and celebrate. We're going to take a trip.
I was already on Expedia. I was planning the flights and the hotel. And she is thinking, "This is security. This is what peace looks like." God gave us this gift so we wouldn't have to be afraid about having to pack up our stuff and go.
So, what I would recommend is before you get married, or let's say you are newly married, I would go on a date and turn it into what I like to call a deep dive date night. Where there's just one thing on the agenda, and maybe this thing is going to be, tell me everything that you think, believe, and have experience with money. And the goal is not to fix you, it's not to persuade you. I just want to understand, like what what beliefs you are bringing into this relationship. Because if I don't know those deep seated beliefs, I'm just going to see your actions.
You spent money or you didn't. You splurge on this purchase, or you're really cautious about every purchase that we make. And I'm not going to find the beliefs that drive the behavior.
So, yeah, I love those deep dive date nights to kind of uncover those things that we can move forward together, hand in hand. Yeah, back to that whole idea of communication, right? Sharing those concepts for sure.
Now, how about the whole world of social media today, which distorts the way a lot of newlyweds see their own marriage? Speak to that issue. Ah. A lot of social media is what I'm going to call PG pornography. Here's what I mean by that: it's not explicit like we would think pornography is.
But what I said before of what pornography did to me is that it kind of gave me this impression that sex should be easy. I think what what a lot of social media does it just convinces you that marriage should be easier, and therefore, if your marriage is hard, something is really wrong with your marriage. You know, you see the filtered, edited. You know that that couple took twenty-two pictures to find one where they weren't like yelling at each other and no one was blinking, and then they posted it. And you just assume, oh, every picture they take is so beautiful.
So I, I think what happens is, you know, we know the truth about ourselves, and on social media, we only see the truth that other people wanted us to see. And very often it's their best look. It's their best foot forward, and it it can subtly create this discontent. I'm not totally against social media. I don't use it much personally myself.
You certainly can be inspired by examples on social media. You can find good ministry resources on social media. But I think the real, real danger is that you know just like pornography does to sex, or Romantic books and novels make you think that your husband is just, you know, a stick in the mud instead of, you know, Mister Prince Charming. I think that social media can just adjust like your expectation of what's normal, and it can make you discontent instead of grateful for the spouse you actually had. Yeah.
Well, Mike, let's talk about in-laws. What's your advice on navigating in-laws without destroying the relationship on either side? Hmm. This program is seven hours long. Is that correct, Dr.
Chapman? Yeah, you know it's really easy to take cheap shots at in-laws, but I have two daughters. They are 18 and 17 years old, and I don't know why I hadn't thought of this before, but it struck me in a couple of years if they get married the same age that Kim and I did, that I could have a son-in-law, maybe two. And it also struck me, like if this guy who just met my daughters, you know, a year or two, and then got married, then he gets the the deciding vote after all of these decades that I have loved, changed their diapers, cut up their vegetables, paid countless dollars to like help them to enjoy life.
So I think I'm starting to understand that tension where, you know, a spouse loves their spouse. But the parents love their kid, and sometimes when you don't see eye to eye on things or you won't make the same decisions, there's these you know tough, tense moments.
So how do you navigate that? I think the Bible is so brilliant because the Bible gives us two verbs that help us kind of hold the tension without going too far in either direction. The first verb is on the second page of the Bible: a man must leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, the institution of marriage. And then in the Ten Commandments, depending how you number them, it could be the the fourth commandment or the fifth commandment. Honor your father and mother.
So I think those two verbs should be like your filter to figure out your in laws. Leave and honor. Let me start with the leave part. Leave means that we're going to make the decisions now as a couple, and that there's really two votes. There's my vote and there's your vote.
And that our parents might have their own opinions about we should do A or B, but at the end of the day, our parents aren't going to make this decision. We do, and that my ultimate goal is to make you happy and to be united with us in a relationship, even if that disappoints my parents or your parents. I think that's the the leave part, the honor part, and it can be really difficult, especially for Americans who might be independently minded, is that God cares so so so deeply. About the parents who raised you. In fact, in First Timothy chapter five, the Apostle Paul says that if anyone claims to have faith in Jesus but does not care for their own family, they're worse than an unbeliever.
So, I mean, those are strong words.
So to think, hey, me and my wife are going to run off and do our own thing. I know you have your opinion, mom, but hey, we have to leave you now and become one flesh. No, the Bible would want to balance that out with this deep sense of honor.
So let me get practical with one example. Let's say the holidays are coming up. Your parents would love for you to go to their house on Christmas Eve. Your spouse's parents would love the same thing. You can't be two places at the same time.
So what do you do?
Well, I think you honor all the parents involved by taking the extra time, trying to understand their heart, asking them a lot of questions. Hey, what would you like this Christmas? If we can't make it this day, is there a good backup plan? I don't want to just rush into a decision and make you feel dismissed or unseen or unheard.
So I'm going to put in the extra effort to love you and to honor you. And then after we have all the information, I'm going to sit down with my wife and we're going to make the decision.
Okay, what are we going to do? And in the end, we want to do something that blesses our marriage, even if it disappoints our parents.
So I think I think if we can do both those things, and for every person, the temptation will be different.
Some people don't leave, but they honor. Other people do leave, but they don't honor. Can we hold both those things in tension that we can leave and honor, which are the two big verbs? I think that guide our relationship with our in-laws. Yeah.
And I think in that first year of marriage, it is a real struggle because again, we talked about those expectations. One of us really feels like, well, I need to be with my parents on this day because my mother has cancer and she may not be here next year. You know, and and you, it's a lot a lot of factors in there, right? Yeah, a thousand percent. But I think if you've communicated, they will have seen your heart.
They will know that you're not just brushing them to the side as you rush into this new relationship.
So yeah, they might be disappointed, but there's you're going to leave them with plenty of evidence that you do love them. Let's go back to this expectation idea. What's one expectation you brought into your marriage that later turned out to really be completely wrong? I did not expect how amazing marriage could be. Twenty three years in.
People talk about the the honeymoon phase as if the best part is the first part, and then it's a grind, and then you die. I remember a couple years ago, I was in an Indianapolis ribs restaurant. I was at a church conference with a a co pastor of mine named Michael, and I asked Michael, "What's been the best year of your marriage?" And he said, "Year twenty two." I said, "Okay, remind me how long have you been married?" And he smiled with a little barbecue sauce on his fingers, and he said, "Twenty-two years." And I love that when you put in the work, when you stay humble, when you learn to speak your spouse's love language well. I just, man, I brought a lot of bad expectations into that first year of marriage, but I just never expected how good it could be when you put in the work, and when you seek God together, and you try to communicate. I would look back at my.
My younger self standing at the altar and just say, "Man, you have no clue how good this is going to be. You have no idea what companionship and joy and pleasure and experiences. It will not be easy, but it is so worth it.
So, man, I wish someone would have told me that being like a middle-aged man with thinning hair and a little gray on the sides, but like a happy marriage, that it's so worth it. Yeah, because it is." It's it's great when you really get it moving in the right direction, and you both are there for each other. It's mutually satisfying. You are right. Looking at the book, if every newlywed in America could read one chapter out of your book.
Which chapter would you want it to be, and why? Oh, Doctor Chapman, this is like this is like making you pick one of the love language chapters. That's not fair.
Okay, okay. You're the host, though, so I will give an answer. There's a little tool in the communication chapter called the Ten Commandments of Communication, and I actually have some really good friends. They're now coworkers here at our church. They came from.
Really broken backgrounds; they never learned to communicate, to stay humble, to love well. And about a decade ago, I took them through premarital counseling, and that's just when I had developed the Ten Commandments of Communication. And it's super sweet because all these years later, if you go to their house, in a framed picture, right in their living room, are these Ten Commandments. I know we don't have time to go through all ten, so let me just give you the first one and the last one. The first commandment of communication: You shall not try to win.
Yeah, because whenever I try to win, honestly, there's like seven other commandments I break. I interrupt. I don't listen well. I change the subject. I bring up the past.
I get defensive. I don't own my stuff.
So if you can just remember, and it's hard when you're when you don't agree and it's emotional, the goal of this is not to win, because if you make that the goal, you will lose by the time the conversation is done. Yep, and then Commandment number ten. I love being a Christian for this reason. You shall communicate at the foot of the cross.
So, man, nothing has exposed Mike like being married. If I thought I was a good person, man, marriage has proved otherwise. It's shocking, you know. When you spend, when you spend decades, and your spouse is going to see the prince charming and the troll who lives under the bridge. They're going to see the best part of you and the worst part of you, and your pastor probably won't see that.
Your teachers won't see that. Your best friend maybe will see that, but a person who's going to spend that much time with you till death do you part is going to see all of it. And that's why I love that there is a Jesus who's right in the center of this. There is grace that is greater than my greatest sins. There is mercy.
That wakes up with me those mornings when I had a dumb argument at night because I was trying to win. There's a cross that gets the final word, and it's the grace that forgives us, saves us, and motivates us to love each other better in the days to come. Yeah, I think those ten commandments would be worth the price of this book. All these others are important. It's all good, really good.
Let me ask you this: I know you've been in pastoral ministry for a long time. What's the most common marriage problem that you see in these days? I don't know if the fall into sin in Genesis three is meant to be a paradigm, but Dr. Chapman, I think that's what I see again and again and again when marriages go wrong. I see husbands who, like Adam in the garden, get too passive.
They don't step up into that headship calling that God has given. They they don't think that the problems of their relationship are actually problems. They're dismissive of their wives. It's fine. We we don't need counseling.
Everything's okay. Yeah.
And then bit by bit, what I see is that many wives become a little bit bitter that this burden has been placed on their shoulders. And they start to become kind of independent from their husbands, and their hearts grow cold. Yeah.
So I think what Adam did in the garden is what too many men do today, and what Eve did, disobeying God and just stepping up and stepping, I'm going to figure this out myself, with or without you. That's what I see. And I think one of the prayers that I have for husbands is to not be ashamed. This is controversial in our culture, but you are the head of your household according to the New Testament. And the only question is whether you're a good head or a bad head in your marriage.
Yeah, you don't have to be perfect, but man, if you can realize God has given me this sacred responsibility to make things good. If there's rotten fruit in the garden, I got to pull out some weeds and put in some work. The God who gave you that position is going to be by you to equip you. But yeah, if there's guys listening today. You might be in a tough spot, but please don't be passive.
Please do not dismiss her emotions as just her emotions. You are one in this marriage. You've been made one body by the blessing of the sacred covenant.
So step up with faith, with the Spirit, with grace, forgiveness, with good biblical leadership. I love her as Christ loved the church, and I would love to see what happens next. You know, Mike, in the first year of our marriage, I'll be very honest. I had the thought. I think I've made a mistake.
I think I've married the wrong person. What would you say to a couple who is in their first year of marriage and already they are wondering if they have made a mistake? That is such a lie that comes from the father of lies who hates that God made the two of you one. Because once you stop thinking we're different, this is hard. We're going to put in the work, and this is going to work.
Once you stop thinking that, which is the right path, and start thinking, "I made a mistake. We're incompatible. I'll never be happy. He's the wrong person. She'll never change." I mean, these these negative thoughts will infect, and they will grow into distance and bitterness, perhaps even infidelity.
So I just want you to know, Jesus said, "What God has joined together." So if you are married, literally the God of the universe has joined you together, and He's not going to leave you to figure this out on his own. He's going to help you.
So please do not let the serpent slither into the garden of your marriage and convince you you married the wrong person. You married a sinner for sure. And by the way, your spouse married a sinner too. Is it going to be difficult when two sinners get married? For sure, but please, please, please, like shake yourself of that deception of thinking this was a mistake.
You are married; God brought you together. He's going to help you through it.
So, if you need help, ask for it. If there's something you need to address, do it. If you have to involve some close trusted friends, a pastor, a counselor, go for it. Kim and I have done that, and it was a great, great blessing. But Don't just sit there in the deception and let it pull you two apart.
And I want to say Amen because I'm so glad I didn't follow that thought and allow it to control my behavior.
Well, Mike, this has been a great conversation, and it's a great book. And I want to just challenge our listeners. Many of our listeners are not in the first year of marriage, but listen—you know someone who is. I would encourage you to get copies of this book and just have them available for people you encounter who enter their first year of marriage. And also, it's a great book for counselors and pastors to have.
So, thank you for being here today, and thank you for the time you invested in putting this book together. Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Chapman. That's Pastor Mike Navatney and his book is our featured resource at BuildingRelationships.us Newlywed: A Christian Guide for Loving Year One. Just go to BuildingRelationships.us.
So, how do you become the man God designed you to be, a father and son duo? Tackle that question in one week. Hear Tim and Mark Shoemaker deal with toxic masculinity and more right here. A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr.
Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
