Responses to Atheists and Your Toughest Faith Questions

So how do we answer some of the toughest, most difficult, pressing questions of the faith? Um It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. It is great to be with you today on The Line of Fire. This is Michael Brown.

I'm coming your way from Hamilton, Canada, up here for a couple of days of special meetings. And eager to talk with you today about the real issues of the faith. We've been focusing a lot on atheism this week. We've been talking about responding to atheists. We're talking about problems that atheists have with the faith.

If you're listening now, And you consider yourself an atheist or agnostic. or you're struggling. You want to believe, but you're having a hard time, or you used to believe, and you don't anymore. Give us a call. I I'd love to talk with you.

866-348-7884. eight six six three four truth. Or maybe you're listening as a believer, you're a committed believer. but you struggle answering some questions.

some atheist questions, some questions about the Bible.

Some struggles you have with people from other religions, and they're weighty questions. I'm not talking about. Ask me about any verse in the Bible or discussing doctrinal issues within the church. I'm talking about big. Faith.

Questions? Are there major faith questions that you have or that you've been confronted with that you have a hard time answering? By all means, give me a call today, 866-366-666-6666. 348. Mm-hmm.

Eight, eight, four. I do want to talk to you about something else first. We're in the midst of the Olympic Games. And of course, these are the greatest athletes in the world seeking to be in the greatest shape of their lifetimes. And some of them are competing.

side by side and and maybe at the end of a race it's It's five one hundredths of a second or two one hundredths of a second separating them.

So you're thinking they're giving everything they have, and yet the competition is that close, is that fierce. And there's a lesson for us spiritually. And I want you to hear this. Paul writing in First Corinthians nine Do you not know that in a race All the runners run. But only one receives The prize.

So, run that you may obtain it. Paul was writing to the Corinthians who were familiar either with the Olympic Games Or with certain games that were just held in their region, but they were familiar with these athletic activities. They were familiar with people pushing to the limit and running and doing various routines and competing against each other. He says everybody runs, but only one receives the prize, so you should live. You should live your life.

You should run your race so as to obtain the prize. In other words, you've got to win your race. But now listen to this. Every athlete exercises self control in all things, They do it. Receive a perishable crown, but we.

An imperishable crown.

Now or an imperishable uh wreath. Versus a perishable wreath.

Now, we normally put the contrast there. What they're doing is for an earthly reward. What we're doing is for an eternal reward. But Paul is saying something slightly different. Yes, that's true.

But notice his emphasis. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we, and imperishable, in other words, we are. Also Exercise self-control in all things. Our goal is an eternal goal.

Our reward is an eternal reward. But as the people of God, what's he saying? He's saying that we also, like athletes, exercise control in all things. Is that your life? as a follower of Jesus, I'm not talking about being a physical athlete and being in the world's best shape to compete against the Mark Phelps or the Michael Phelps of this world and be the fastest swimmer, the fastest runner or the highest jumper or whatever.

It is is No, no, but he's saying that we as followers of Jesus Exercise. Self-control in all things. Does that speak about your life? Does that speak about my life? It is part of our calling.

In God.

Alright, we're going to tackle some faith questions when we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. There's no supernatural dimension. There's no rescue coming to us from the unseen. There's no such thing as salvation. Um and we are As alone as other species are in this.

in this struggle. Yeah, so Christopher Hitchens dialoguing with William Dembski. And they're talking about God, they're talking about goodness of God. There are atheists who become atheists Because of difficult spiritual experience. because of what seems to be the absence of God.

in a given situation where you would expect his justice his intervention.

Some become atheists based on intellectual issues. questions arise and and they don't know how to answer them or respond to them. Many times it can be science versus the Bible, perceived difficulties there. Uh sometimes it's it's a personal disappointment. I've seen people who who who have uh They're going through a church split.

Yeah. or been hurt in a relationship And then it ends up little by little they get embittered towards the church as a whole, and then they get embittered towards God. There are others where it's a purely intellectual process or issue. There are others that were raised in a non-faith setting. and can't relate to believing.

I spoke with a Russian atheist one time A man probably in his fifties, and he said he and his wife and daughters tried to believe. He said they tried religion, they tried to believe, and it just didn't work for them.

Now, obviously, I don't know what they quote, tried, but he wanted to, but. That for him and his family, it didn't work. They were raised in atheism, and they had a hard time coming out of it. And, of course, many of you came out of atheism, you had an experience with God that changed your life. You were confronted with intellectual arguments that raised issues to you.

And those drove you to the truth about God. But if you have a faith Related question. If you have a faith-related question of any kind, something you're struggling with. And it's raising issues for you, or you've run into it. You hear it.

From other people, and you don't have a solid answer, give me a call, 866-348-7884. And remember, all this week, you can download the new Ray Comfort movie, The Atheist Delusion. You can download it from our website. 60 minutes, eye-opening, very impacting. You'll be blessed to hear the many testimonies from viewers about the impact it's had.

When you order it this week from our website, Ray Comforts Ministry is donating half of the proceeds right back to us.

So we're blessed as you are blessed as well. That's at ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.com. All right, let's go to the phones. We'll start in Bayonne, New Jersey.

Ricky, welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Mike, how are you? I'm doing well, thank you. I have a question for you, Doc.

It may not be one of spiritual desperation or nothing, but. Uh in First Chronicles Um It rela it relates to David being the seventh son of Jesse. But then in First Samuel, It talks about how uh when Samuel went to see Jesse and Jesse brought out his first seven sons. And Samuel didn't anoint any of them. And then he asked Jesse, Do you have any other sons?

And Jesse said, Well, yes, but he's a young one out tending the sheep. And he called for David, and then that's when Samuel anointed David. That would have made David the eighth son of. Jesse.

So, my question is to you. I'm not a theologian, Mike, and that's why I'm calling you. Is Jesse, is David the seventh son of Jesse, as it says in 1 Chronicles, or is he the eighth son of Jesse, as it says? guys in 1 Samuel. It is an interesting question.

And you're right, it's not one of these life and death issues. But it is one that has puzzled scholars over the years, to be honest. I looked at it, someone raised it to me, I had just not noticed it, kind of casually reading, you see the same number seven, seven, you know. And you think, okay, yeah, just David's the seventh, but then one account would seem to indicate. Yeah, seven sons plus.

David. Um There's no clear Scholarly answer, that's a definite, okay? Um We don't have something that absolutely tells us For example, we have manuscript evidence that's overwhelming that says one text should say six. And that would then make David the seventh, who wasn't there. We don't have anything definitive on it.

possible answers But nothing for sure. Is it possible that one son dies later and that's why seven are mentioned instead of eight? Uh it's it's You know, it's it's possible. Is it possible that when it says he brought out all seven sons that that David was just not in the picture, you know, that he's there kind of hidden. And it wasn't explained at that.

It's possible. We just don't know for 100% certainty. The only thing I can say, though. is that generally speaking, when you um Uh when you have these Apparent contradictions. They are just that.

They're apparent because of lack of information. And if you had more information, then it would make greater sense.

So I'm looking, of course, at the passage here. In in First Samuel The 16th chapter, verse 9, Jesse made Shama pass before Samuel, but he said, Yahweh also has not chosen this one. And Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, Jesse, Yahweh has not chosen any of these. Then Samuel said to Jesse, Are all the young men here?

He said, Yes. He said, The youngest still remains, but look, he is shepherding the flock. Send and bring him, for we cannot sit down till he comes here.

So again, that would seem to say an eighth. The Chronicles text makes reference to seventh, so Was it that a son died and is no longer listed there? Or did something else happen where he got disinherited? We don't know. Um Was it seven just used because it was looked at as an ideal number?

So even though it was actually eight, it was just mentioned as seven, like someone might use a round number to round something up. That's possible. We're not 100% sure. And to be honest, I looked at it a little bit and I thought, okay, I don't have an answer, I'm not sure. when we have more information, could be a simple textual error where some text said seven instead of eight.

Uh maybe a scribe remembered seven where it was actually ate and then and then miscopied it and the miscopying got got incorporated.

Sometimes when we have more manuscript evidence like the Dead Sea Scrolls, what's happened over a number of years is that discoveries have been made And we found, ah, here are even older manuscripts that say it in a way that seemed more logical, and that's explained it for us. But beyond that, we're not one hundred percent sure. We just have to kind of leave it as question mark. And like you say, it's not one of the big issues. Uh it's a minor one.

Uh But this question works.

Now, let me just mention this to you. Um Just in a few minutes, give a little bit more data, a little bit more background in terms of what some other scholars say in terms of the apparent contradiction. Um But it's not we study scripture as carefully as we can. And We studied multiple languages so we can read the original manuscripts. uh when I say the original manuscripts, the copies of the original manuscripts You study multiple languages so that you can read the ancient translations For example, the Greek translation of the Old Testament that we call the Septuagint, and then some other Greek translations, Aquila and Theodosian and Symmachus, those are ancient Greek translations of the Old Testament.

You have the Aramaic Targums. which are translations slash paraphrases. You have the Syriac Peshitta, which is an ancient Syriac translation. You have the the Vulgate. and then various editions of Latin translations, et cetera.

So scholars look at all of these and then you look at the manuscripts and thankfully we have thousands and thousands and thousands of manuscripts. And normally, when you put everything together, you can come up with a working solution. And when you can't, You remember, okay, the biblical editors, the ones who copied these things out, the ones who put them together, they weren't troubled by the apparent contradiction. For example, the apparent contradiction between Matthew's gospel and Luke's gospel that comes down one through Solomon, one through Nathan.

Sons of David. And there's a couple of other issues. I believe the best explanation to that is one that sees Matthew's genealogy is referring to uh to Joseph and Luke's genealogy as tracing back to to Miriam Mary. And there's some other explanations along the way. But all that to say, When I know the people that were copying these things and then giving us these texts as sacred, didn't struggle here.

Then I think, okay, there must be something that I'm missing. It's not that we stick our head in the sands, it's quite the opposite. Biblical scholarship is robust and very, very serious. But you've also had the simple explanation that we get four eyewitness accounts of the same event Uh during a traffic accident. And if you weren't there or if you don't have angles from all the different cameras, the the witnesses contradict each other.

And yet, they are accurately each telling what happened from their particular vantage point. And I've had many a situation where I said there's no answer. I've looked at this. And what a shame There's no logical answer. And then when I dug deeper, it's like, oh.

missing information, missing perspective.

So That's just one of them. I've got a break coming up. After the break, if you're still listening, I'll mention a couple of other things in terms of how scholars might resolve it.

So a long answer to say we're not sure, but a long answer to say there's a lot that goes into try to come up with answers. And when you say we just don't have one, it doesn't mean we're at the end of our oath. It just means at the moment, we don't have them based on manuscript and other things. Like that. All right, hey, I gotta run, but I'm gonna address this again briefly on the other side of the break.

Thanks. Change the world. Change the world. It's fire we want. For fire we please.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome friends to the launch fire. This is Michael Brown coming away from Hamilton, Canada today. 866-34TRUTH is the number to call. 866-348-7-884. What do you get hit with as major questions?

You're sharing the gospel with someone that raised a major faith issue. You struggled with believing certain things along the way in your own life. You've encountered online issues and questions that you have a hard time answering. What are those? We'll address some of them on the air today, 866-34TRUTH.

The sweet thing about the internet Is there's a lot of trash on there, but there's a lot of information that is readily had, readily attainable. And if you just type in was David the seventh son, or just David seventh son, you'll immediately see how many sons did Jesse, father of King David, have.

So First Samuel sixteen, ten and eleven clearly implies that Jesse, the father of Israel's King David, had at least eight sons, of which David was the eighth. But 1 Chronicles 2, 13 through 15 indicates that Jesse had only seven sons. that David was the youngest, which text is correct. and they offer this solution Both texts are no doubt correct. It is most likely that one of Jesse's sons died before making any significant impact during David's reign, thus being of no account to the chronicler.

You'll note that First Chronicles two, thirteen to fifteen does not state that Jesse only had only ever had seven sons. It simply names seven of his sons, including David and two of his daughters. If one of Jesse's sons had died before being married or without having any children of his own, I'd suggest that that simple explanation about one dying without ever having done anything particularly noteworthy, it would not be unusual for his name to be omitted from the written record in First Chronicles. Even today, it's often common practice, except in formal genealogical registers, to refer to only the surviving children. Children.

And again, these are the types of ways that you look at it and say, okay, is there any other explanation? And why would things that seem to be saying things differently behind the you listen there, but it's it's funny, there's just a bunch of websites that that address this Uh The answer is really quite simple. that one of Jesse's sons shown to Samuel Bethnah must have died while young and without posterity. At one time, David was the youngest of eight sons, at another time he was the youngest of seven sons. Again, it's a logical answer, and one that says, oh, it's not.

Not so big an issue. Um yeah, okay, another explanation that Jesse was with another woman. And she was the mother of the other seven. And In one account, they're all considered sons of Jesse, in another account, they're not. Yeah, I mean, they're.

There are numerous possible explanations. But Carlos, thank you for calling in with that suggestion. I appreciate it. Here, let me come back to something very, very important, though. And then I want to go back to your calls.

I am always thinking about what God's doing in society. what he's doing in the church, what he's doing in the world. I was getting ready to fly out to Canada after our radio show yesterday, just finishing up dinner. And I was looking at a number of articles I had written recently, and I said to myself, I do not want to write another article on gay and lesbian issues. I just want to take a break for a little while.

I don't want to write another article on that. And then I see this news report about thirty six year old mother reunited with her son, nineteen. She'd give him up for adoption. They're reunited.

Now they're passionately in love. They're willing to go to jail for their love. And I thought I need to address this again. If love is love, Then why not? If love is love, then what's uh what's wrong with The grown mother, a consensual relationship with a son that was adopted.

uh at an early age, so she never knew him. Uh what's wrong with it?

Well, it's wrong. Of course it's wrong. Of course. Yeah, it's gross. Yeah, I agree.

But But based on what? Based on what? If the mantra behind same sex marriage is love is love. And love wins. And I have the right to marry the one I love, then either that's true or that's not.

Either that's an absolute statement or that's not. Either that's right or that's not.

So if it's not right, if it's not absolute, Well then on on what basis uh you're going to redefine marriage. If what's good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.

So I wrote an article. You can read it by going to askdrbrown.org, clicking on latest articles. If love is love, why can't a mother marry her son? And I raise this issue because once you get away from the consciousness of God in society, Once you get away from foundations that God has established in society, you open the door of possibility. you open the door of possibility of all types of things being changed.

For the so-called progressive Christians who are more enlightened, and they don't need certain scriptures anymore. They can tell us why they don't apply.

So they want to throw Leviticus eighteen out of the Bible because they said that's just the law of Moses and it was just range in Israel.

So homosexual practice was forbidden then, but that was under the law and it doesn't apply today.

Well, that chapter is primarily dealing with incestuous relationships that are forbidden. If you want to throw the chapter out, then what's your foundation for saying that incest is also wrong? What's your foundation? But be careful what you tamper with. Be careful about moving the ancient boundary.

stones. 866. Three four eight. Seven eight eight five. Four.

Let's go to Des Moines, Iowa. Kathy, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, thank you, Dogger. I am uh I'm calling today because I um My husband is a pastor and I'm His associate at a church. in a denomination that's always been That we freely bait.

Uh but the leadership that's coming up right now. It's going to take the leadership for our district meeting We just had that includes Montana. Minnesota and uh North Dakota and Iowa. But she In her sermon. dismiss the need for the blood of Jesus.

And I was obviously very offended by that. I mean, the word is offended by that. And then in what way did she dismiss it? In what way did did she dismiss He said, Um, Well, it's messy and I don't believe in all of that. Yikes.

And I you know, sin is messy. Uh so Mark as a As my husband is an ordained pastor in the denomination, and many faithful. Bible-believing members throughout the denomination were we're getting overrun by people who are not taking the word of God seriously. And I'm wondering you know, our ordinations are in this denomination. And how unfaithful are we being, or are we being unfaithful?

If we stay. and try to write the ship. Poor shit. is the is the Christian thing to do to bail. Yeah, Kathy, these are painful issues because you serve in a denomination for years.

You honor that denomination. You have many friends. You see the good that they do. the best thing to do is to confront the error. The best thing to do is to with respect To address it, to press the issue, to take a copy of the message to go to higher ups and say, do you embrace this?

This to us is a fundamental denial of the faith. that must be repudiated. And press the issue to get an ultimate word from the higher authorities, either they embrace that, in which case you must move on. or they will repudiate it and correct it. It may take a little while, And that's where your patience and wisdom kicks in.

as to wait it out. But It must be renounced, it must be denounced, it must be repudiated. If not, then you have to move on. But first confronted. Make that effort.

May God give you grace and wisdom. All right, friends. Go to the website askdrbrown.org. Download the Atheist Delusion today. You'll be blessed.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. The beautiful thing about atheism Is this the refusal to believe in something that's destructive or misguided or bad for the world? That was the voice of Ronald. Yeah. Rob Bell.

Speaking about the beautiful thing about atheism, He says the beautiful thing about a thinking atheist, which I think most atheists are thinking. Beautiful thing about atheism is just the refusal to believe in something that's destructive or misguided or bad. for the world. This is Michael Brown. You're listening to the line of fire.

We're focusing in particular on issues that are raised Considering the faith, major faith objections, issues that atheists raise. We're not doing it in a ridiculing way. I think many atheists raise very powerful points. I think many atheists Uh Point to a morality? Yeah, the morality comes from God.

Ultimately, of course, my friend Frank Turek. Dr. Frank Turk in his book, Stealing from God, makes a great argument as to The only way that atheists can make an argument against God is by saying there are is justice and there is morality and there is good and evil, and of course without God, How can you maintain that those things are even realities and for just completely natural material beings? But I'm not here to ridicule the objections of atheists or the questions Christians ask. In fact, many are probing, many are important, many are difficult, many are challenging, and they cause us to think.

But Rob Bell in many ways has departed from some of the foundations of the faith. And uh In my view, it has repudiated the gospel in certain key critical ways.

So, Right now, and I'm not dealing with him as a brother with whom I have disputes, but as someone who's denied certain fundamentals of the gospel, God, of course, is his judge. But listen a bit more. What he has to say, and I want to interact with it.

Well, clip number two: Rob Bell on a short video. Talking about atheism. What I find so fascinating is how many people I know, or how many of my friends who are atheists, when we talk about the God that they don't believe in. I don't believe in that God either. And some people who when you will ask them So you're an atheist, tell me about the God you don't believe in, and they tell you about the image of God they were handed perhaps growing up.

You think the only healthy response to that image of the divine would be atheism. rejection of that.

So Religion has done horrible things in the world. Uh a lot of violence. has been done In the name of God. And the atheist says, I refuse to participate in something that brings destruction and chaos. to the world.

Now on the one hand I think Rob Bell makes some very valid points. In other words, there are Misconceptions about God. And many times when someone says, well, here's why I don't believe in God, and they go through other reasons, your response is, I don't believe in that God either.

So yeah, in that respect, I agree. But the idea that religion's done all these bad things and atheists won't be part of something that's so destructive, uh I'd say atheism's taken a whole a whole lot of lives. Atheism's been guilty of all kinds of destruction. Atheism's brought a lot of suffering on on the world. The Black Book of Communism documents what, 100 million lives taken by atheistic communism.

So let's put things in a right perspective. But is that all there is to it? In other words, is there no issue ultimately of an atheist having to bow the knee to God? Is it ultimately that we don't stand in judgment on God, but God stands in judgment on us? Rob Bell goes through his thoughts on this and getting people to look at the wonder and awe and mystery and just self consciousness, and that brings us to a sense of who is this me and there must be a God, but makes some very other some very odd comments otherwise about kind of the how the human race is just progressing.

No one owe slaves anymore and no one does this anymore and no one does that anymore. Actually this probably more people in slavery right now around the world than any time. In in world history. Certainly a high, high number, and human beings committing every kind of unimaginable atrocity every single day. on a regular basis.

Sinners needing God. Let's get things turned in the right direction here. The humanistic approach to demonstrate God isn't going to work. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire. Michael Brown coming away from Hamilton.

Canada, oh, not that far out of Toronto, I don't think. Had a great meeting with leaders this morning and then another meeting tonight and broadcast from, oh, I think Buffalo, New York tomorrow. and then head back home. 866-348-7884. If you've got a major faith related question, not just hey, I was wondering what this verse meant.

But a major faith-related question, give me a call. Let's go to Queens, New York. Danielle, welcome to the line of fire. Good afternoon. How are you?

Doing well, thank you. My question is about being unequally yoked in marriage. When the word of God says do not be unequally yoked, I would like to understand, does God mean only spiritually? For example, if I am a believer and I have a potential mate who believes in God but may not believe in Jesus Christ.

So they're not considered a Christian and I were to marry them. Does God frown upon that? It's you're certainly asking for a lot of trouble. If you do remember That when Paul was writing, he was writing to believers in Jesus in Corinth. And the Corinthians, the general population, they believed in all kinds of other gods.

And Paul had to say, no, no, there's only one real God, the Father, and one real Lord, Jesus.

So outside of that, It is light being united with darkness. because there is a very specific call a very specific path that Jesus has for us. And Uh if you're getting on a plane that's going to a specific destination, and someone else is just getting on a plane that's going somewhere, you're not going to arrive in the same place. And it's practical also, Danielle. In other words, When when you are building a life together and becoming one flesh.

your values are going to center around Jesus. your husband may reject that. You may want to be very committed to a local church, and your husband might say, Who needs that? I don't believe in Jesus. You want to start teaching your kids.

and training your kids. and helping them to grow. And if he's not on with you, often he can be working uh against you.

So unequally yoked is really talking first and foremost about spiritual union. and ask the question from this angle. If people are lost without Jesus, if Jesus is truly the only Savior, Savior. And the only redeemer. then if they die without him, they're lost.

So, you're going to be separated at that point.

So, you don't want to marry someone that you're going to be separated from. in the world to come. Uh you don't want it that you go to be with the Lord and he goes to a place of judgment. obviously, you're not spiritually united. One is with the Lord, one is not.

So it may be painful if you find someone who seems to be a great guy and caring and all of that, but ultimately, there's a spiritual separation. And it's one thing if you were married and then you came to faith. In other words, the two of you got married ten years ago and you came to faith. Paul says, hey, maybe you can save your husband. Maybe you can save your wife.

Stay together and be a good influence. But going into it, you do not want to go into an unequally yoked uh marriage And I've seen over the years so many people go through so much hardship. many, many struggles and then years later regret regret that they did it. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're very welcome.

And listen, if you honor the Lord, He'll honor you. If you put him first and honor the Lord, he'll honor you. All right? You're very welcome. And whether Danielle was asking for herself or for someone else, same answer.

86634. or truth the number to call. Um Do I want to get to this political thing? All right. Not yet.

Not yet. Let's just stay right here with faith-related questions. Carrie, North Carolina, Eric, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you for your program. I needed to ask you about some Situation where in the gospel it says that uh The angel told Joseph to come.

flee to Egypt to avoid the killing. of the innocence. in another place it's Yeah. Mary went to the middle. the temple after 40 days for purification.

How does that work together? Oh yeah, uh certainly. Yeah. Fleeing is um Uh We're looking at the chronology here, all right? The uh The fleeing is is taking place.

In uh a a later time, okay?

So if we're looking, we know That Mm-hmm. Jesus is born in Bethlehem, right? Right. We know that Harry finds out about this But um uh and and and wants to to kill kill the babies there, right? We also know that on the fortieth day that she would have they would have been in the temple dedicating.

So it's obviously after that time. that they're fleeing.

So you say, well, why are they fleeing then? Because obviously there was still Uh Uh still concern to to find this this child.

So by the time we get to to Matthew, the second chapter, and the accounts there with the the wise men or the the magi. Yes. This is now a later period already. This is not Um the same as the shepherds in in Luke's Gospel.

So, um Yeah, it you you might read it as if it's all happening like one day after another. Right. Okay, so baby born Bethlehem. Get out, hurry out. They go to Egypt.

And then wait, wait. If you're in Egypt, how can you be in Jerusalem? But the the fleeing to Egypt would be subsequent to the temple dedication. And remember this doesn't work any other way. Uh well, then you think that they they went out to Egypt and came back that quickly?

Of course not. Uh it just looks like uh the the two uh uh the two uh descriptions don't Co uh you know, they don't uh correspond to each other. Yeah, well when you say is there a another Option. Yeah, so one option is they each wrote their own story and one of them got it wrong, or both of them got it wrong, right? That's one option.

and for those who found the scriptures to be trustworthy. That doesn't work. The other option, as I said, is that the Matthew 2 account is later. Right. Yeah.

And many people think of the Magi coming to Jesus, like I say, just the moment he was born. Others would say, no, this you're looking at a subsequent A subsequent period of time. And then going down to Egypt is definitely later. And then, of course, he comes back. Uh comes back and settles they settle as a family in in Nazareth.

But the only other thing just to remember is that we're reading things. in kind of a flat way on a page. We're For example, you're reading about Isaac and Rebecca and she can't have children, so he prays and she has a child. Right. When you actually read the account and realize it was twenty years before she had the child.

So years can go by and it's not recorded in that way. Right. And in the ancient world in particular, it's it's not like just the latest internet news.

So you can have here's a five or ten year period and it's recorded as if it's consecutive events. Bye bye. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. All right.

Hey, it was a very, very fair question, and I do appreciate you asking it. God bless you, man. Thank you.

Alright. 86636. Three four. For truth. Let's go to Liz in New York City.

Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. I'm very thrilled to speak with you today. I feel God's providence, I was able to listen to your program and have the opportunity to call.

Um My question is not about an atheist But about a believer. regarding my husband. Um and there are portions of this that'll relate to the woman asking about being unequally yoked because though my husband is a believer, And I I noticed a discrepancy in Where are faith was when we were engaged and I really Just to give an account to that woman. I prayed very diligently Um I felt like the Lord gave me the green light that his grace was with me. Um, and he is a believer, but it is difficult because there are a lot of difference is there's a lot of absence of fellowship.

And um one of the places that's coming up now comes a lot I'm trying to stick to broad strokes. I don't need My husband's uh background was very Ballad oh. neglectful, dysfunctional, abusive, violent, a lot of wounds in his life and My sense is that Here's a A um block to Yes. sanctification because it hasn't surrendered a lot of things. And one area that he had an involvement in the occult prior to his being saved.

And I sense Uh like the fingers of these lying spirits trying to get over. his mind and cause him to Question the truth, and he proclaims that he wants the truth. He he always goes back, I just want the truth, I just want the full truth. But the nature of him getting that truth, I see it going on such divergent paths away from the word of God. tried to get to a specific question for you.

There are One thing he says, he says, I believe the word of God But I just don't trust that we're interpreting it today. in a true way.

So that's why he's outside. Stay right there, and we're going to come back on the other side of the break. I want to continue this discussion. and we'll do our best to be of help. you dear husband.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Are you an atheist? I am.

So you're an atheist? Yes. I need to know what to believe in. Like, what happens when you die? Yes, I don't want to be a bag of dust.

I think I am open to evidence. It just would have to be extraordinarily compelling, like, out of this world, compelling. That is some of the footage from the very powerful new Ray Comfort movie, The Atheist. delusion, real eye opening. You'll watch people confront it with truth.

Atheists, sincere atheists in front of your eyes and what happens to them when they are. You can download it from our website, ask Dr. Brown.org, ASK DRBrown.org. And remember, when you do this week, half of the proceeds are being donated back to our ministry through Ray Conference Ministry.

So take advantage of this. It's on the website, askdrbrown.org. Great for you. Great for friends that don't believe, great for those who used to believe and are struggling. Atheist delusion on our website, askdrbrown.org, 866-34Truth.

We're talking about Struggles of the faith, real issues. Uh so Liz Out. A couple of a couple of thoughts with regard to your husband and then you can You can fill me in if I'm missing something, but On the one hand, Sometimes we have to get to a crisis point like we pray like there's no tomorrow. Yes. In this case, God touch my husband.

God, get hold of him. God. impact his life. Make yourself so real to him. that the questions will vanish.

And sometimes it's only someone really close. They can carry the burden that intensely. And you may have prayed for them for years, but you finally get to that point where you, as we say, pray through. where you take you don't you don't tell them, you know, you don't announce it to him. But just You fast, you really go after God for a breakthrough.

And God knows how to intervene. God knows how to get hold of us in a way where the doubts vanish. where we know that we know that we know that we've really encountered him. The other thing along with that It is to say, listen, if you believe the Bible is God's word, but you're not sure we're interpreting it right. Let's dive in together.

How about we do that? How about we we get a Bible? You know, any of the standard study Bibles that exist have great notes. I say, let's read it through together. Let's go cover to cover.

And let's look at the study notes and let's see if we're reading it rightly and if these notes make sense or if people are trying to put their interpretation on it. Uh and Uh it reminds me of A friend of mine who's been on the mission field for over forty years. And when he came to faith, he was. In the whole hippie lifestyle, as I had been at that same time, late 60s, early 70s. But Uh when he came to faith He said to his brother-in-law, Well, look, I've been raised Catholic.

what about all the things that Catholicism believes?

So he said, listen, Read through the Bible cover to cover. And make a note of everything that's in the Bible. that the Catholic Church does. that our church doesn't do. And he read through the whole Bible, ended up not making any notes.

In other words, he realized, okay, we are following the Scriptures here. It's not to put down Catholics, but simply to say it's ultimately the Scripture that's our foundation. Do you think that he'd be willing to take that plunge with you and say, okay, let's really Read it through. and and see if we're rightly interpreting it. And and kind of force some issues, think you'd be willing to do that?

I I believe that there's a part of him that would. But there is such a tag. Yeah. of mental influences. It opens a lot of questions.

Claro. Got it. confrontation. It opens a lot of judgment. And so there are a lot of other threads in this knot.

It's really like a knot. When you pull on one, you try to get it loose. You pull on another, you go, okay, that didn't pull it open. Um The your first response. They're not praying um Um speaks to my heart because That really is the nature of very first nature of what I'm experiencing and I Just pick.

Speak with another believer, and you feel like a genuine brother in Christ. I have much affection for you and your ministry. And um it I Yeah. I'm weary of the spiritual battle. Um, so your encouragement to keep praying through is um as valuable as any Particular answer.

Yeah. Um I treasure your your wisdom, your your ability to think things through and I He respects your articles a lot and so often I come across things that I can read in your voice. And it's third party, it sort of adds more weight to it that, um You know, he gets here in a little different way. for me. Um So I do pray.

I will um Mm-hmm. I feel the need to pray for God to continue to open the opportunity to read the word together. Um it it requires a lot of wisdom to know. And when to start and when to stop. I I understand.

Right. You could be opening up a can of worms if someone's not approaching it. The right way, and that's why I asked and asked you to fill me in on anything I was missing. But listen, when I start with prayer. It's not like, well, we got like 30 options and we tried prayer.

Prayer's always the the number one thing that we can do. And I I remember over the years a few situations with uh praying for we we knew a particular husband was not a believer. and he was always hostile to his wife. Being involved in church services and would fight her and was always trying to pull her back into smoking pot and different things. And we prayed for him.

For some years, and when he got radically saved, I remember when he started coming to church services, we all we had a hard time relating to him initially because he was so changed. He was so different. It's like, you're you're not acting. This is real. And and I I think of another fellow who was a psychology professor.

and a big, very imposing guy His wife, faithful, faithful, devoted believer. I preached it The church she was part of for years, and she'd often come up, her husband was Jewish, a non-believer, and she'd in tears pray for him, pray for him. He's so hostile, he's so lost.

Well, he got so radically saved that he would set up a keyboard on the street corner and play the keyboard and sing and preach to people. I mean, you and to this day, it's been a while since I've seen him, but when I would see him, I was just I would always be amazed And here he's a psychology professor, New Jersey guy, rough, tough cookie, and absolutely devoted to the Lord.

So be encouraged. God has touched many when you add fasting to it as you're able and then pray in secret. God will work in such a way. But here's what I want to do, Liz, and thank you very much for the kind words I'm out of time, but everybody listening, many of you are prayer warriors.

Some of you are a bit older. You can't get around as much. You listen to the radio regularly. And your greatest ministry is the ministry of prayer. Can I ask you to pray for Liz and her husband?

that God would bless her with a richness of his presence beyond which he's known A richness of his reality.

So that she could really walk in great harmony and fellowship with the Lord beyond what she's known and be a great shining light to her husband, and that God would get hold of him. That God would so get to the ultimate needs in his life and the ultimate issues and bring into a place of ultimate surrender, Lord, do it for Liz and her husband. do something amazing in this man's life. May we get a call in the months to come. about his amazing transformation and see it with our own eyes.

We ask it in Jesus' name. Hey, thank you.

so much for the call and we'll take it as providential that we had this talk today. God will hear. Look at Luke 18. Luke 18, the opening verses. You'll understand why when you get there.

All right, friends. Go to the website if you haven't. AskDrBrown.org. Order your copy of the Atheist Delusion. Download it.

You can be watching it today. You can be showing it to an Atheist today. Take advantage of it. You'll be blessed. My bottom line.

We serve a God who's a real and living God. When we cry out to him, he is near to the brokenhearted. A biochemist has some helpful tips on sharing the gospel with atheists. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome, friends, to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown coming away from Hamilton, Canada. Momentarily, we are going to be joined by Dr. Fuzrana, the biochemist working with reasons to believe. As we continue to talk about atheism, dealing with atheism, questions of the faith, major faith issues that people have and experience And uh Fuzz is a compassionate man, a caring man.

A well-educated man, a scientist. And we're going to talk about atheism. And if you have a question, if you have a question about science and the Bible. If you have a question about science and the faith, then they seem to be contradictory. Or maybe you're in school and you're getting confronted with stuff in biology classes and stuff about evolution and you're unsure how to respond.

By all means, give us a call. We'll see if we can take some calls as well today. 866-866. three four eight seven. Seven eight eight four is the number to call.

Before I do that, though. All right, this is controversial, but we're just going to get into it very, very briefly. Joey, grab clips number four and five. Julian Assange, however you pronounce his last name, of WikiLeaks fame or infamy. has raised a very, very serious charge uh the hacked emails of the DNC who was behind it.

There was the accusation. Russia was behind it. He has a different take on it. Clip number four. Whistleblowers go to significant efforts to get us material and often very significant risks.

As a twenty seven-year-old works for the DNC, he was shot in the back, murdered, just two weeks ago for unknown reasons as he was walking down the street in Washington. That was just a robbery, I believe, wasn't it? No, there's no finding.

So What are you suggesting? What are you suggesting? I'm suggesting that our sources uh take risks and they are they become concerned. Uh to see things occurring. Uh like that.

We don't comment on who our sources are. about a young guy being shot in the streets of Washington. Because we have to understand how high the stakes R. in the United States. All right, one more clip and then I'll comment on it.

So Julian Assange is is suggesting that the one behind the leaks from the DNC Very, very damaging leaks that this is actually someone that worked for the DNC. and was shot and killed. Yeah. His wallet, his ID were not taken. No money was taken.

He was shot in the back and killed. Click number five. But it's quite something to suggest a murder. That's basically what you're doing.

Well, there others have suggested that we are investigating to understand what happened in that situation with Seth Rich. I think it is a concerning situation. There's not a conclusion yet. We wouldn't be willing to. state a conclusion, but we are concerned about it.

And more importantly, a variety of WikiLeaks sources are concerned when that kind of thing happens. I think the interviewer was raising some very fair questions, which is, if you're not going to say who your sources are. then why suggest something and say, well, I can't say if that person's involved. Looks like he could have been involved, could have been killed for it. They take a very high risk.

You said it's one of your sources. Oh, we can't say that.

So that that seems odd. unless there's some critical piece of information we're missing. But this accusation is out there. I am one that is very slow to believe in conspiracy theories and things like that, but we know that the system was hacked. We know that there was a a death that was not a robbery.

of someone that Now there could have been a thousand of other reasons for for this tragedy. Could have been a thousand other reasons. But The accusation is out there. We address it. If there's more information, we will.

discovery. We'll be right back. Change the world. Change the world. Give us strict to always do what's right.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. So we've been We've been focusing on atheism, responding to atheistic rejections.

responding to other questions of the faith. And I've often mentioned that my wife Nancy, when we met, we were both nineteen. I had been, I believe, for about two point five years at that point. She was a staunch atheist. It's a real miracle she even stepped into a church building at all.

So We Uh got to know each other, I started to witness to her. God worked his life. Ultimately, God opened her eyes, saved her. But she has always helped me. me to understand atheism better.

Because I've I've never been an atheist. And I always try to put myself in other people's shoes and try to understand what it is that. Produces their thought processes. But certain things I can do better than others. And when I've had dialogue with atheists or agnostics, She's often sat with me and said, Okay, your argument doesn't hold water to an atheist.

And I said, Why not? She'd explain, I said, Okay, now I see it better, now I understand it better.

So when we deal with these objections, they're not things that I ridicule. Yes, there may be weak objections, but there are many that are substantial, that are serious. that need to be taken seriously. And my guest, Dr. Fuzrana, a biochemist with reasons to believe, Uh they are a premier website.

Explaining how science, accurate science and the Bible are in harmony. And Fuzz also has a heart to reach atheists with the gospel, as do others on his team. The website is reasons.org. When you go there, you'll find the place for yourself. You're a non-believer, you're a believer, you're a believer with questions.

You're an adult, you're a child, you'll find a place for yourself where you can get lots of great information.

So Fuz, it is great to have you on the air with us today. Welcome back to the line of fire. Michael, thank you. It's always a pleasure to talk with you.

Well, Fuzz, how did you develop this particular interest in atheists and atheism.

Well, you know, like you, Michael, I never was an atheist. There was a time in my life. I would have called myself an agnostic, but I never really had animosity toward the notion of God's existence. And so, you know, I don't really have an insider's perspective as such, but I've spent. Almost 20 years in active ministry engaging atheists in all kinds of different venues and all kinds of different formats, from one-on-one conversations through social media, debates and dialogues on university campuses during Q and A sessions.

And through that process of learning the hard way through experience, I really think I've come to appreciate much better what is necessary for us to develop in order for us to be effective at reaching atheists. All right. Now you're also a biochemist. And that means that you studied with biology professors and of course. Looking at a 2011 survey, That was done.

And at that time, 3% of the American population identified as atheist, 4.1% as agnostic. Among college professors surveyed, Those numbers were 9.8% and 13.1%, respectively.

So about three times higher than the general populace. But when it comes over to A biology Professors, 33.3% were agnostic, and 27.5% were atheist. Would you say that you ran into percentages like that to the extent you knew whether your professors had faith or not? Yes, in fact, it was more common for me as an undergraduate student and a graduate student, and even as a postdoc, to know faculty members. in the life sciences who were atheists.

Or who were agnostic.

Now, many of them just were so enamored with science that they really didn't think about philosophical and theological issues. But there were some that were rather rather quite angry towards any kind of religious belief, particularly Christianity. And so it was very commonplace. And in fact, Part of what's happening in biology, in particular, is that the claim as part of the evolutionary paradigm is that mechanism alone can account for the origin. in the history of life and the design of living systems And of course, if mechanism can account for those features, then the the viewpoint would be why is a creator even necessary?

I don't need a creator to explain what I see. And so many times that viewpoint really fuels, I think, and drives atheistic belief within the sciences.

So I've had the double pleasure, if you will, of interacting not only with atheists, but atheists who base their atheism, at least superficially. um on uh scientific evidence. Right. All right, now lits break things down just like There's a diversity among believers, there's a diversity among non-believers or unbelievers. And there are aggressive atheists and there are seeking agnostics, there's a there's a whole range.

But there are some that have a moral problem with God. They don't want there to be a God. They have plainly said they don't want to bow the knee. there are others that seem would gladly believe, but they're struggling in one area or another. Do you think sometimes as the church and that's just two out of many possible scenarios, do you think sometimes as the church that we have kind of a monolithic way of the way we look at atheists and therefore we don't reach out properly?

Yeah, I think that's very much the case. And, you know, we tend to think of atheism as not only being kind of this. One size fits all worldview. But in addition to that, we, I think, oftentimes think of atheists. as the enemy of the faith.

And granted, atheists can do significant damage. When you're a young student, whether you're a seeker or a Christian student in a college Classroom setting in the life sciences, you will very well be confronted with professors who you probably admire and like quite a bit who will use that platform to promote atheism and link it with. again, scientific credibility. And so that's a very damaging message to hear. You have the new atheists that, again, are using science as a way to advance their agenda.

So atheists can do a lot of damage, and I can understand why Christians would see them as the enemy But the fact of the matter is we have to look at them as a mission field, not as the enemy. And that's a very difficult thing to do, but I think it's absolutely essential if we really want to reach atheists as individuals and as a community.

Now I know you've got some practical tips, some suggestions based on your own approach. But b before we get into that, through the ministry, through reasons to believe, through your own interaction, What kind of fruit have you seen? with with people who are, say, intellectual atheists. maybe biologists, maybe scientists. uh maybe others who who know the arguments, they're thinking people, Have you actually seen people like that over the years come to a living, vibrant faith in Jesus?

Yes, we actually have seen a number of examples. One high profile instance where the Ministry of Reasons to Believe had a huge impact was a Nobel laureate in chemistry named Rick Smalley, who is considered to be the father of nanoscience. And he was an outspoken atheist. He was vitriolic. And yet, he had a good friend at Rice University.

Who was sharing the gospel with him, who was a colleague in his department, a well-respected organic chemist, and he had questions, and so this chemist called. us in to interact with Rick Smalley. And we gave him books and things like that. And he wrote back saying after he read Origins of Life that I co-authored with Hugh Ross, he said, I think evolution has been dealt its death blow. And he read Who Was Adam?

And he felt like that was a really powerful work that showed a scientific basis for the Christian faith. And so we have seen people like Rick Smalley go from staunch atheism to being open to the gospel to responding to the gospel. And he gave his life to Christ about a year before he died of leukemia.

So, a tragic death took him way too young, but the point is. We've seen those kind of dramatic conversions, but it can be a very slow process. I had a friend. Who was a PhD in engineering at a university here in Southern California? Took him seven years to come to faith in Christ.

And it took him a number of years to come and to faith in Christ after he was convinced. There was scientific evidence. For the Creator. And my friend Lyle would say, don't give me this Jesus loves me junk. Two plus two have to be four before I'm even going to listen.

But I have seen it happen where the objections were largely intellectual in nature. Mm-hmm. And it really what you're describing with with your friend here is very similar to the C. S. Lewis story where intellectually he went from atheism to theism.

and then was able to encounter the Lord and become born again.

So that many times the apologetics is the pre-evangelism. Yeah. pairing the way where someone's actually willing to to hear the rest of the message.

So we come back. I'm going to speak with Dr. Fozrana about sharing the gospel with atheists. about practical tips about an approach that can be used That you can find very, very helpful. And above all, The biggest thing always is to have God's heart.

to have God's heart to Genuinely genuinely love the people that you're interacting with. And even if someone is hostile, maybe it's a university professor who's hostile, maybe they love the new atheism of the Richard Dawkins and the Christopher Hitchens. Yes, that person may be an enemy of the faith. but they're still loved by God and we pray for their repentance. All right, we'll be right back, Protector Fuzz Rona, his website, reasons.org.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. If you believe It's your God, and your God is infallible.

You can't throw out some of the rules just because you don't like them. That was the voice of Penn Gillette. There are many people in popular media that are atheists, and some of them. are quietly atheists, you would know it, some of them more openly. And some of them are moved by issues of justice.

And fairness And how can there be a God and these things go on around you? There are many, many different atheists, and people become atheists for different reasons. And uh the fact is there is there's no one a cookie cutter method in reaching out, but there are things that are practical, that are helpful, that are useful. I'm joined by doctor Fozrana, biochemist with Reasons to Believe. Their website is Reasons.

org. lots of resources there to download, to read, to watch, and then others that can be purchased.

So it's a great place to go, especially for questions about science and the Bible.

So Fuzz, not everyone Has your scientific background. I certainly don't. Uh you're you have that advantage because so many objections uh about the Bible come from the realm of science. But take us through what would you recommend, what would you suggest, how can we learn to better share the gospel with atheists? Yeah.

Well, you know, we we've already talked about the idea that I think love is really a very important component that until we can convince ourselves that we truly love the the people that we're reaching out to, including atheists, we probably are better off not trying to engage them in apologetics or with arguments for the faith or against their worldview. I think it's also really important that we roll up our sleeves and do the hard work of trying to understand not only why they have the particular objections they have to the Christian faith, But Really, try to think through and get and put yourself into that worldview and try to understand the logic of how they're reasoning. And from that, then begin to develop kind of an apologetic argument. And I think it's really important too to be Positive, and by that I mean that we present reasons why we think Christianity is true. why God exists, why Scripture can be trusted, why Jesus lived, and evidence for his death and resurrection.

I think it's important too to be able to positively communicate the experiences that we've had as Christians and how we've seen God work in our lives. But I think it's very important to make a positive case as opposed to spending time trying to argue with people why their perspective isn't valid. when it comes to the area of science, a lot of apologetics is centered on why the origin of life could not have happened through evolutionary means, why the history of life or the design of life couldn't happen through evolutionary means. And that, in my mind, is a necessary component, but it shouldn't be the dominant component in the way we engage. um non-believers, particularly in the arena of science.

And you know, and and many times too, we end up I think arguing against straw men or caricatures of a particular position, I see this quite a bit when people try to challenge evolution is they're challenging ideas that are thirty, forty years old in the scientific community as opposed to the ideas that are at the cutting edge. And when I find when you take the time To try to understand the argument, the logic behind the argument, you try to understand the worldview. And then you engage appropriately. Uh The ideas that the individual or that community actually holds to, you get a lot further along in the conversation, in the interaction. You get a lot more respect, I think.

because they realize that you understand what you're talking about, and they appreciate the fact that you've actually taken the time to do your homework to engage the conversation intelligently. All right. So your average believer It's one thing to to love others It's one thing to have God's heart for those who don't believe, It's one thing to make an effort to understand In other words, to genuinely listen. People can tell whether we're listening or not. And if they say, here's the objection, Maybe I don't get it.

I I don't see it. It seems silly to me.

Well, rather than mock it, okay, explain that. I don't see this until I can see it from their viewpoint.

Okay, we can do that. But there's so many objections from so many angles If we're going to get equipped, if we're going to get built up, Where do we start? do we just start in whatever the conversation is we had, okay, I need to study science more or I need to study philosophy more, I need to study the moral issues more. How are people going to get adequately equipped where that nonbeliever can say, hey, you've really done your homework? Yeah.

You know, the the way I've approached it is you know, to you know based on the person I'm interacting with, and there are particular objections, is to learn everything I can about that particular issue, that particular concern, that objection, how to respond to it. And there's great resources from a number of different ministries that are available to Christians that are introductory, that are intermediate, that are advanced. But you know Start someplace, and as you begin to develop an appreciation and understanding in that area, then move on to the other area, another area, in another area. You know, it's the old adage: how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? I mean, I've been doing this, you know, easily 20 years, and on top of that, I've had a number of years of science education.

So I didn't just roll out of bed one day and decided I was going to do this. It took a lot of preparation. But the preparation was largely initially motivated by what are the questions people are asking, what are the objections people are asking, let me focus on those. And then as I got good at those and understood those, I moved on to the next ones and the next ones. And before you know it, you're going to be actually fairly knowledgeable and fairly adept at, I think, engaging intelligently with people who have very real substantive objections to the faith.

Yeah, I I'm so glad you you shared that because For most of us, that's how we grow in our knowledge. We get challenged in a certain way. we get interested and we start to learn and we start to dig in. And then it's almost like layers. You just keep learning and reading and learning and reading.

And now you interact.

Now someone says, Hey, can you teach a little on that?

Now you gotta dig a little deeper.

Now someone comes with another objection that you had. I wrote five volumes on answering Jewish objections to Jesus and then supplemented it with other material.

Well, that that was 'cause I got thrown thrown in deep in the lake of Jewish objections and and had to figure out how to answer and and respond. But basically wherever we are, whatever level we are, That's where we go and that's where we grow. And I've got a bunch more questions for you. But Fuzz, if folks go to the Reasons.org website now, what are some of the things they're going to find there?

Well, we've got all kinds of articles and podcasts and videos that are accessible to people for no cost. that cover a full range of issues. Uh in the science faith arena. And then we also, of course, have a number of books and DVDs that people can purchase as well from us. But we have uh Virtually any kind of area of science that people might be interested in, we've got resources that will help.

People see how those Insights from that particular area contribute to a scientific case for God's existence and the reliability of Scripture. Uh terrific. Reasons.org. When we come back, Fuzz, I'm wondering about things that one generation back we were told science is sure on this, this is clear. And now those things are now dismissed.

In other words, some of the claims of science that seems so powering Maybe they're not as cowering as we might think when they challenge scripture. Remember, friends, go to askdrbrown.org, download your copy of the atheist delusion. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome back to the line of fire.

This is Michael Brown. Delighted to be with you coming away from Hamilton. Ontario and Canada today, not that far out of Toronto, doing some ministry. in the morning and afternoon before and after radio. And then heading back to the States tomorrow.

I'm delighted to have on the air with me Dr. Fozrana. He is a biochemist. And he publishes articles, books, puts out podcasts, different material with reasons to believe. their website reasons.org.

And we often hear about the assured results of science. And of course, there's been massive scientific development learning. Many Christians through the centuries have been at the forefront of scientific development. contrary to this notion that that the church has always been at war with science, But yet we hear from generation to generation. that this new Discovery Yeah.

scripture, this assured result of science. makes uh a scriptural data questionable. And I'm not a scientist. I don't know how to respond to the scientific arguments. But Fuzz, are there things that the scientists felt pretty sure about a generation or two ago that they kind of came to opposite or very different conclusions now?

Yeah, and the quintessential example of that would be something called junk DNA. uh when the uh human genome was sequenced. Initially, and the draft sequence was published, this would have been in 2000. What people argued is that the data indicated. that about 95% of the human genome was made up of garbage DNA sequences that were leftover vestiges of an evolutionary history that maybe at one time had function in our evolutionary history, but that that function was lost.

And those sequences are just retained as molecular scars in our genomes. And that's That is a very difficult position to argue against. from a creation slash ID standpoint. And I remember when I started with Reasons to Believe, one of the first articles I wrote for the ministry was on the possibility that junk DNA may have function Uh But I was grasping at straws, if I want if y if I'm frank with you. It was a real significant challenge because why would God introduce garbage into genomes of Of human beings who are supposed to be the crown of creation, fearfully and wonderfully made.

And yet, over the last 15 years, there had been discovery after discovery after discovery showing that what we thought was junk turns out actually to be functional. In fact, kind of the damn burst. in the fall of twenty eleven with something called the ENCODE project, where researchers published results that indicated at minimum eighty percent of the human genome is involved in function, and that like it's likely that that number will go closer to one hundred percent.

So suddenly, we have a very different view of the human genome, and what was at one time really very powerful evidence for an evolutionary view of humanity's origin actually turns into a very powerful argument for design because it now looks like the human genome is so much more sophisticated than anybody could have even imagined fifteen years ago. And so in my experience, many times what seem to be nagging scientific issues for the Christian faith actually turn out to be very powerful evidences when the dust settles and we actually develop a full understanding of that particular system. Yes, and what's so remarkable about this is that this is recent science. You're not talking about 50 years ago or 100 years ago or 500 years ago. You're talking about 15, 16 years ago.

I remember hearing that argument within probably the last three or four years, obviously, someone had not been fully informed about the so called junk DNA not being junk after all. And in fact, it was one of the first questions I asked you in an early broadcast because you still have these things circulating and yet it was simply a matter of we didn't understand. It was not a matter of proof of evolution. It was a matter instead of we actually didn't understand. It was our ignorance.

That was exposed. All right, we'll be right back with Dr. Fuzz Rana. Change the world. Change the world.

Oh, God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. I heard that it was the best movie Living Art Wise ever created. And I'm thinking to myself, how can that be? Their movies are so great. How can any movie be better than the last?

And then I'm watching it. And as it's going along, it's like, wow. It is the best movie ever. I left that movie with Goosebumps. Trying.

And I'm so excited. to see it come out. and it's gonna change many lives. I know it will. Yeah, that's the viewer screen.

Speaking about the new ray comfort. Movie The Atheist delusion I've I've really been moved to see how people have been moved to seeing it Eyes had been opened. discussions have begun that have been super fruitful. Lives changed through it. You can download the DVD at 60 minutes.

from our website, and then yours to do with it as you please on multiple formats once you download it. That's at askdrbrown.org, ask kdrbrown.org. But do it to our website because this week Ray Conference Ministry is donating half of the proceedings back of the proceeds back to us. To use for radio and the ministry that we're doing.

So askdrbrown.org is the place to go. I'm on the air with Dr. Fuzz Rana, biochemist with reasons to believe. And I want to bring on a caller, Chris from Richmond. Um you consider yourself agnostic atheist, is that correct?

Yes. And you have a brother that's uh Christian? Yes, I have a brother who's extremely Christian and uh He's he's my older brother. He's a great guy. Um My my my point was I was raised Baptist, so I was about nine.

You know, all of us kind of decided to. we were all able to kind of fall off, you know, at that point. My mom was a single mom. I I grew up in uh McLean, Virginia, and you know, back back then You know, um she continued to go, but she didn't pressure us. And My my brother, the one I'm talking to you about, was extreme.

Really? Specular at that time. Um when I was growing up. I mean, he was all about Jesus Christ superstar and things that of that nature, but he was very contrary to organized religion. And my my whole point is we have great discussions, my my uh brother and I.

But I I I I guess what I have a problem with now is what seems to have changed is. This idea that if I'm an atheist, somehow I'm I'm I'm an enemy or I'm adversarial. And you had made a comment about even though we're enemies to the faith, I don't feel that way. I don't think you've ever seen atheists in a group come to anybody's home. knock on the door and say, excuse me.

We would like to spread logic to you. No. It doesn't happen that way. But because the Christian religion calls you Give Christ. and the idea of Christ to other people.

Your you know, you you are almost Dictated that you should share the gospel and the whole right. And I'm fine with that. Let me just say this, Chris. And then I'm going to. I want you and fuzz to have a dialogue for a moment, okay?

Sure. What certainly there are plenty of atheists who are not enemies of the faith in any way, shape, size or form. I was referring to those who are. In other words, I I had enough experience in college and grad school And I have enough colleagues who have had experience where you have professors who are aggressive. In other words, it is their mission.

to deconvert people. It is their mission, like a Richard Hawkins Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris or others that that feel that religious faith is a real enemy. that's dangerous and harmful.

So there are those who are aggressive, but certainly Someone that doesn't believe in God, I don't look at them as an enemy of the faith unless they're aggressively. Trying to attack those things. But let me bring fuzz on here and let you guys just chat for a minute.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, are you watching? Yes, hi. I really appreciate your comments.

And I would echo much of what Michael said, and that is part of the my point or part of What I'm trying to encourage Christians to do is to not view atheists or agnostics. In your case, as enemies of the faith, but really as essentially a mission field. But these are Or people, you are a person that we want to reach with the gospel. And we want to do that because. We love you because we believe you have inherent worth and value, that you're the object of God's love, that Jesus died on the cross for your sake as well as for my sake and Michael's sake.

And so that's why we want to reach out to you. But oftentimes, the church Quote unquote, views atheists and agnostics as a threat to the faith. and and takes a posture that people like you are really enemies. And then approach you not with the goal of building bridges, Trying to get to understand you, trying to serve you and minister to you with the hope that through that process you see the love of God, the love of Christ, but rather, They they try to respond as if you were an enemy. But as Michael said, there's good reason for that because I didn't come to faith in Christ until I was a graduate student in graduate school working on a PhD in biochemistry.

As an undergraduate, I was an agnostic. But even as an agnostic, I saw how my professors, this would have been in the early 1980s, I saw then how they treated people who would identify themselves as Christians in their classroom. They were at times very belittling to them. I totally get that, but I think you have to understand. I'm in.

Chesterfield, Virginia. Um I Look through every radio station I have on AM, I'm going to tell you that 98% of it is conservative. Ninety-eight percent of it is uh Christian friendly. And I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to speak to the my my specific reason for calling. I think Questions are fine.

I think they're doing great. They're establishing their own bases and all that stuff is wonderful. But here's what Yeah. I think the minute Christians got involved in politics. I think something changed.

And what and this is just my opinion. But I think that's when you started to see A more uh aggressive and Sensitized and sort of almost agoraphobic attitude. If you're not in, if you're not drinking what I'm drinking, then I'm not going to associate with you. And I'm just saying, based on my experience only, I'm African American. Um I have three beautiful boys.

Um I I own my own business. I in in every way, I am just a regular old guy. And I I'm I'm here to tell you that I've been ostracized more for the fact that I do not attend church, as my children have been, than color or class or anything else. And I think that says something about Christians in terms of Not all of them, but but there's something happening with this marriage between Christians and politics. that's doing something Difference.

to the Christian faith And I think it's allowing for A sort of strange um I I want Christians to be a part of society. I want them integrated. My brother home schools, but I I really wish he would have stayed in his public school. and try to Fight that fight. You know what I mean?

I I I I don't want to see Christians marginalize themselves to such a degree That They're no longer you know, only hear that you know, they begin to only hear their own voices. Does that make sense to you? It it it does. And I think You know, I would share many of your concerns, and you know, we want reasons to believe Christians to become. Of the scientific community, we encourage young people to consider careers in science with the idea that.

Yeah. Their presence in science Helps to combat the view that Christianity is anti-scientific, but I think increasingly within science. uh issues of ethics and morality are coming to the forefront in a very prominent way, particularly with emerging biotechnologies. And I think it's important to have a Christian voice in that community to offer maybe a counterbalancing perspective to some ideas and some applications of biotechnology that, frankly, I think undermine human dignity and human worth and human value.

So I would very much agree with you, but I think The the point I would make is that while this may be an unfortunate occurrence, in your opinion, that Christians are becoming involved in politics. And as a result, maybe there's some things that are unpleasant, it doesn't necessarily render Christianity untrue. Because at the end of the day, to me, the question is Um You know, does God exist? did Jesus exist? Did He die on the cross?

Was He raised from the dead? And I think you can make some pretty compelling arguments from science and history for those ideas. And if that's the case, then I think we have to really confront that reality. The fact that Christians May not do things that you think they ought to do, given what you know of the Christian faith, is sad, it's discouraging. Uh but Christians are sinners.

That's the point of the gospel: that we all are sinners, and that it's only through the blood of Christ that we have hope, that we have salvation. And um And as we enter into that relationship with Christ, we're going through a process of sanctification where we're growing, hopefully, to becoming more and more like Christ as we engage the world. But Christians are sinners. We fail, and sometimes we fail horribly, but that shouldn't. determine whether or not Christianity is true for you.

All right, and and I just want to jump in with with one word and Chris, well We'll get back to you on the other side of the brake. Should Christians have gotten involved in the battle against slavery? in the 1800s. What a Christian thing to do. It's fire we want for fire we want.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us on the line of fire. Enjoyed speaking with Chris somehow. He left us just right before the break there. But on the air with Fuzrana, Dr. Rana, biochemist from Biochemist.

with reasons to believe reasons.org is their website. As far as I appreciate what Chris was saying In terms of what can be certain negative perception towards an atheist as if the person is is an aggressive opposer to the faith. But of course, we've run into those, and their works are the ones that are better known. That's what we're responding to often in writing. It's the aggressive public attacks.

And I do understand that there's an issue of politicizing the gospel or being connected with a political party, But obviously, Christians are called to get involved in social and moral issues. If we don't, we're not being faithful to justice and and righteousness and other things that affect us day by day. But you think that there has been so much of an evangelical identification, say, with the Republican Party, that that has created a bit of a mixture for some people. Yeah, I mean, you know, it I think uh I uh there's a I think a lot of confusion perhaps about um the relationship between Christianity and a particular party perspective. But to some degree, it's understandable why Christians might gravitate towards.

more conservative party just because of the nature of the Christian faith and the nature of conservativism.

So it's understandable why that gravitation would happen among Christians and why that association might exist. But I think it's very important that Christians are involved in in our culture, that we are engaging in our culture, reasons to believe we think about this more from the standpoint of science. And as I was saying before the break, it's very important that Christians are involved in science, particularly as we're looking at things like stem cell research and And now, even ideas that are broaching transhumanism.

So, if Christians are not involved in science. in that way, it really is a frightening future that we're looking at, I think. Right, if we are called to be salt and light, the Christians are as smart as anybody else. And if we have the wisdom of God, if the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom, then there's a perspective we can bring that is beyond what anyone else can bring in in terms of ultimate truth and dealing with moral absolutes and even reminding people of the existence of these things, having a seat at the table. And home schooling is great and awesome for many.

And many of these kids get up, get in the elite universities. I mean, that's been proven now. But the key thing is, at a certain point, We have to infiltrate society. I'm all for home schooling. Most of my friends are home schoolers, the ones with younger kids.

And I'm just referring to that because the previous caller did. But then at what point do we engage? At what point then do we go into the world and make our impact? And we can't just drop out because things are bad. I mean, at the very moment that Christians are most needed, that's often the time when we're most AWOL because we think surely Jesus is coming at any minute.

And we're only hurting others in the process. Do you believe, Fuzz, that? The door is open. that people who want to get involved as Christians in the sciences Do you think that the door is open or have the universities and the sciences closed their doors on conservative believers? No, I think the door is open.

I mean, it can be a very complex and difficult landscape to navigate. Uh we actually have developed A facet of our ministry targeting high school students and young college students. or we have a mentoring program, or we put them in contact with Christians who are in science. In science, as a career, to help again give them a vision. for how they can function as Christians within science.

In such a way that they are serving the Lord, but also giving them advice practically how to navigate what can be sometimes very difficult circumstances. But I tell you this, Michael, if you're good. in the sciences, there's always a place for you regardless of your philosophical or religious perspective. And so one of the things we tell young people is be the best scientist that you can be, be the best student of science you can be. And from that platform, you're going to have opportunities and there'll be opportunities to share your faith.

And from a position where people respect you. and admire you.

So it the door is open. It's more difficult today perhaps than it was twenty or thirty years ago, but the door is open if you are willing to walk through that door uh and you know, and have the proper support system, I think, in place as a young person. Excellent, and I'm so glad you're doing it. It needs to be done. I was just finishing one book about how.

believers can positively impact the nation. And one of the things I was talking about is getting involved in so many areas of society. and getting involved in a serious level in the secular universities. And then continuing to raise up solid Christian schools that can rival any in terms of intellectual rigor, but here with a great moral foundation. And there's so many areas in society we look at it and we think, oh man, this is not right or this is not good.

Well, here we are. Let's get involved. Let's make a difference. Let's bring about positive change. And Fuzz, we've only got a couple of minutes, but in your own life, what was the biggest thing That strengthened you in your faith in Jesus?

Was there a key moment? Was there a key event, a key truth?

Well, uh it was it was two things. One, it was of what brought me to faith in Christ, and that is just The marvelous, elegant design of the way in which chemical systems function inside the cell. That to me to this day impresses me and I just marvel at it. But actually, what probably had the biggest impact on me was what brought me to faith in Christ, and that was what I would call a religious experience, where as I was reading the Sermon on the Mount, There was this overwhelming sense of a presence In the room with me, as if there was a person in the room with me, and I had this overwhelming sense that what I was reading in Scripture was absolutely true.

So I had an encounter with the living Christ. Through the pages of scripture and the moving of the Holy Spirit. And so, in my view, That is what convinces me to this very day. But as I look at places where Christians have impacted the world, Um In almost miraculous ways, by getting involved in our society, by getting involved in culture. Um I'm also convinced through seeing that happening that the gospel is true because I've seen the power in the gospel time and time again.

As Christians are willing to step out and engage our culture and engage our world and engage with people who have different worldview perspectives. Yeah. Amen. With you on that. And here you encounter God intellectually, you encounter God in the heart.

You're transformed, born anew, and you can love him with heart, soul, mind, and strength. We appreciate what you're doing. It reasons to believe it's great to be in this together. And may the Lord use you to win many atheist agnostics to the Lord in the coming years. Thank you, Michael, and the same blessing for you.

Thank you.

Received. Friends, that's reasons.org for the Reasons to Believe website.

Okay. How do you get your own copy of the Atheist Delusion? You go to my website right now, askdrbrown.org, and you see it right on the homepage. Watch the brief video to find out more, but you'll be blessed. You'll be stirred.

Eyes will be open. A great tool for witnessing and answering your own questions. And half the proceeds will be donated right back to us by Ray Conference Ministry. My bottom line today, God is, God certainly is, and he's making himself known in power. It's a word.