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The following program is sponsored by What's Right What's Left Ministries and is responsible for its content.

Portions of the following program may be pre-recorded. I am Pastor Ernie Sanders, the voice of the Christian Resistance. Stay tuned, my radio broadcast What's Right What's Left is coming up right now.

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Thank you. This is What's Right What's Left with Pastor Ernie Sanders. Good evening, and welcome to another edition of What's Right What's Left on this sixth day of April 2022. And indeed, this is the voice of the Christian Resistance.

Yeah, we're still here, and we're still resisting. Now, we have, of course, he is at the controls. None other, you know, he hits the dials with a smile. None other than Courageous Craig. Good evening, everybody. Good evening, Courageous Craig.

And we have that gentleman farmer and the, well, the Missouri parson, none other than Joe Larson. You mean that highly unpaid professional assistant of yours? Yes, I'm here, ready to go to work.

Alrighty. And then we have our esteemed, well, counselor, and head up the Biblical Law Association. None other than Attorney Gerald Finney. Are you there, Gerald? I'm here.

Thank you for having me on, Pastor Sanders. Okay, fellas, we got a whole lot to do. This is going to be lightning rounds tonight. I mean, we got so much stuff to cover, and we only have like two hours to cover it, so we're going to have to really fly through this. So we're going to pick it up where we left off in God's Word, the Bible.

And I am angry here is the reason why. And that was the title of the message. So we'll pick it up where we left off in 2 Corinthians 13. Would you read verses 5 through 8, Joe?

Will do. So we be as reprobates, for we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. Alright, so now we have this word, reprobation. It kind of seems a little bit confusing here, because normally that word, reprobate, means one who has lost control, has got no control, don't know right from wrong anymore.

They've been given over to a reprobate mind. Okay, but in this case, he has got a different term, and the definition of that word there in the Greek means one who fails the test. It means one who will fail the test. Oh, I thought it was a counterfeit.

Yeah, well, counterfeit would be the same thing, you know, it would go, yeah, so, a failure, basically what it is, a failure. So here, let me read that again. Examine yourselves whether you be in the faith, prove yourselves no, you not, that you are yourselves, know that Jesus is numb. What does he tell them? He's telling them to do what?

To find out for sure if they're what? Saved. If they're saved. And Gerald, you just jump in there when the counselor, so he's telling them, Joe, this is the one thing that I preach over and over, and I know some of the folks out there listening to me on the radio and those in our church, they kind of get tired of hearing me saying, you got to make sure, make your salvation sure, make your salvation sure, over and over.

Why do you think it is I say that? Well, because I'm like you have seen so many people who have this profession, but when you look, there's no fruit, there's no possession, there's no desire to serve, there's no desire to go out and witness, and you doubt that that person is truly saved, although they profess it all over the place. They have a professing of faith, but you're right, the Bible says that faith without works is what? Dead. Okay, so that means it's not there, right? Right.

It's pretty absent. Okay, so he says, so be you a doer of the word, not a hearer, only deceiving, deceiving your own selves, and the vast majority of people, you know, you watch them out there, you know, many of them, I've actually heard people who'll say that, you know, they don't really like to get called on to do anything. They like to go to church, they want to go there, and I had a friend who used to tell me years ago, all you have to do is get saved. He used to say to me, you don't have to do all of that stuff, why do you waste your time out there preaching in front of those bloody abortion mills?

Why do you do that? You're a good salesman. You could be making money, and I'd try to explain to him, you know, and he would tell me, all you have to do is get saved, make a profession, no, if there is really salvation there, then there'll be proof of that, wouldn't there be? Exactly, well Jesus said, if you love me, you will obey me, and you and I have gone over that list of all those verbs, those action words that he uses, you know, run to the battle, you know, fight the fight, expose the works of darkness, you know, I could go all night on them.

Okay, well let's do this with Gerald, because he's a pretty good lawyer, or attorney, I want you to say, and so, Gerald, if you had somebody on the witness stand, and you wanted to either prove that they were or they weren't a Christian, how would you question them? Well, I'd first ask for their testimony, how did they get saved, and then I would ask, has anything changed since you were saved, if they gave a correct testimony, because we know the word of God says if any man be in Christ, he's a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things become new, and we also know from Ephesians 2, Romans 8, various places, that you're made alive spiritually once you get born again, and you're excited. You realize that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your dirty rotten sins, that you were a dirty rotten sinner bound for hell, and that because he died for you, and because you turned to God and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, he gave you eternal life.

And you're a new creature, you're regenerate, you're not the same. I know this from experience, I was excited about getting saved, and boy, I was eating up the word of God, listening to all the preaching I could, studying the Bible all I could. At that time, I was working 16 hours a day with the business and working at the railroad, but I know, I was excited, and I started telling people about Jesus, and I didn't even know hardly any verse, I didn't know where to find the verses, but I knew that I believed the word of God, and that people had showed me in the word of God how to be saved, and I just started telling them about Jesus. And really, I was a better witness in the sense, to begin with, because the Holy Spirit was just carrying me. Man, I was so excited, people said, you're on fire.

I was on fire, brother. I can't understand anyone who says they get saved, and they're the same as they were before. Well, it's because what happens is they're told, you make the profession of faith. You've got a lot of body comp theologians out there. I've seen them, there was a fellow that used to come out, when I would be out on the street preaching in front of the bloody abortion mills out there trying to, and we would witness these people, but he would go after people, and he would just keep hitting them and keep trying to witness until, you know, I mean, he forced them, he wouldn't get off them until they made it, and they would say this in his prayer, supposedly repeat, and they were just doing it to get rid of him.

They were just doing it to get him off of them. I mean, he would approach people, and then he would write them down, one more, I got one more done today, I saved one more today, I got one more saved today. But it was body comp theology.

It wasn't real, okay? Now, if someone is truly saved, for example, okay, you know, they took, Barnard took a number of polls, and in these polls, when they would have the Billy Graham Crusades, and you would have these people, they would make a profession of faith, and they would go back, and they would, again, talk to them three months, six months later, and there was no change, they were not active, they were, most of them, I mean, some I would imagine did get saved, but there was no change in them. Now, if you get saved, then you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He tells you very clearly not to grieve the Holy Spirit. So how does someone grieve the Holy Spirit if they're truly saved, and they're not living for the Lord, and they're not doing works, good works, then they will grieve the Holy Spirit. And if you grieve the Holy Spirit, he will grieve you back, and he's better at grieving you.

You will not be a happy camper. But these people that are going through life, see, I got saved, and there's no change. They've got no, absolutely no desire to do the Lord's work, they're living out there in the world just like before, the only thing different is now they have a profession, but they still don't have a possession, and Jesus said, many are called, but few are chosen, many will come, but few will enter.

And so he makes, and that's what we're seeing out there today, we're seeing. I kind of said that last night, I was looking at a 2017 Barnum, and it was like 17% of the professed Christians had a Christian worldview. This year, they repeated the survey, the study, and out of thousands of people, they found that about 2% of the professed Christians had a Christian worldview, and that worldview really is nothing more than living the mind of Christ, living the life that Christ has called you to do, to make it simple for the listeners. And we're losing that worldview, which means there's a lot more of those people out there who are professing, but have no possession, and when you interview them like he does, by the hundreds and by the thousands, you see it quite clearly. Oh, absolutely. You know, when you're watching and you're seeing Joel Osteen, and he's got these thousands of people there, and you're looking at him, he's not preaching anything from the Bible, nothing from the Bible, and you know that their mind there is on one thing, is how to obtain material goods.

How to get mine, get mine. I love the way he waves that Bible around. I just love that.

He waves it and holds it. He says, this is the word of God, but he never reads the word from it. Okay? But the idea was like, you know, the name and the claim and the grab and the stab, and like he says, you should live the good life now. Now is when you live the good life. Now, and so the good life is the material goods. Now did Jesus say, where did he say, place up your treasures? Did he say, do it here on the earth, or did he say, do it in glory?

He said, yeah, place them up right. The crown's in heaven, right? And so that's what he's talking about here. And so the most important thing for people, and I see this, and I know people that have a profession, and the hardest people in the world to witness to are those that think they're saved when they're not.

Because somewhere along, they were told, all you have to do, it's the easiest thing in the world, all you have to do is make the profession, that's all you have to do. But if you get that part, you have to have a repentant heart. I mean, the first word that Jesus said in his ministry, repent.

If that's his first word, there must have been, you know, extreme attention paid to that first word. For he says, verse 8, for we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. Now, we're going to go over to one of the most misunderstood passages in Scripture, the most popular verse in Scripture.

The most popular, but the most misunderstood. So let's go over to John chapter 3. And in John chapter 3, read me verses 14 through 18. All right. All right. So now, you know, we have that old story, remember, that Jesus died for everybody.

Well, you know, that is a sound bite that you'll hear. But Jesus didn't die for everybody. See, God, when God does something, he never fails. Had he died for everybody, everybody would be saved. But his blood was sufficient to cover, to take away the sins. But the blood had to be applied.

Now, who did the blood have to be applied to? Let's go back to verse 18 or 14. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so, must the son of man be lifted up. That whosoever, whosoever, whosoever, whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now, here, so now we're going to go to the smallest word in this, and this is one that's even though it's only two letters, it is very big. And that is this, when it says, For God so, so loved, so loved the world, so. Now, that word so in the Greek is hoyto, hoyto. And do you know what that word in the Greek means, Joe?

I think you've told me, but I do not remember, to be honest. That word means in the way or in this fashion or in this manner. So when it says that, so for God in this manner, in this way, okay, in this fashion, and what was that fashion? Well, he did it in the fact that it was in the sacrifice of Christ, in the sacrifice of Christ that the world could be saved, in other words, but now he's not talking about the whole world. If he was talking about the whole world, if Christ had died for the whole world, the whole world would be saved. So how do we know that God did not love the whole world? I'll tell you, let's go over, read me James 4-4, Joe.

All right, James 4-4. Behold, ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is an enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. So now, Gerald, you are a lawyer in this case. If you're the enemy of God, are you his friend? Absolutely not. So if God, do you think God so loved his enemies?

That's a tough one, isn't it? I'll tell you what... Well, he's angry with the wicked every day, you know the Bible says, and he's angry with sinners. They're not his children. They're alienated from him. So, yet, his motivation for sending his son was love. That's why he sent his son. But only those who... What's the other gentleman's first name again?

We never figured that one out. He's just... No, that's Joe. That's Pastor Joe.

Yeah. You have to receive Christ. When you receive Christ, you're receiving God's love, because Jesus Christ is love personified. But if you don't receive him, you're not receiving God's love, and you will... God would not send his children or his friends to hell. He will send those who do not accept Christ to the lake of fire, and for eternity. The Bible is very clear about that.

Let me ask you this. Is there a difference between love and hate? I mean, Scripture says God hates all of those that commit iniquity, those that commit iniquity. God hates those that what? Whose hands shed innocent blood? Whose feet are swift to run to mischief?

Who have a lying tongue? But then it goes on to say he hates all of those that commit iniquity. But then again, we know that we don't read anything in the Scripture. Joe, would you go over to Romans chapter 9 and read me in Romans chapter 9? Let me see. In Romans 9, if I remember right, it's verses 13, I believe it is, 13 and 14.

Okay. And also I notice on verse 13 and 14. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then?

Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Now, okay. Now, see now, what it just says is Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Now, we are never to read anything in there that's not there. Now, because I've heard people say, well, you see, he sent Esau to hell. The Bible doesn't say that.

God is a merciful, merciful God. It just said, have you ever hated somebody that you didn't hurt? Yes.

Okay. I mean, believe me, there are a lot of them out there today, those that are trying to destroy all of our children. The entire Deathocratic Communist Party, they want to destroy our children. They want to make pedophiles out of people and, you know, child porn. This woman, this Kitanji Brown, she's really into child porn.

She lets these guys who molested children and promote child porn, I mean, terrible crimes against little children. And one of them was on the radio bragging about it. He got away with it.

I got away with it. He was laughing because, and you had people like the Ryno Romney. Ryno Romney, I don't know what he got, but, you know, because see, Ryno Romney before, when she was running for a court, for a lower court, he'd come across all these things, these reasons why she was not fit. All of a sudden now for the Supreme Court, this same woman who embraces child pornography, now she's fit to be a Supreme Court Justice.

What do you think that cost her? And then here also you have another Ryno, Susan Collins. She's another one who, you know, let me ask you guys, are you tired, are you just absolutely fed up with being, you know, stabbed in the back by Rynos, betrayed by Rynos? Are you really tired of being betrayed by Rynos? Long time ago.

A long, long time ago. And here's what they're doing, and they're hurting the children. This woman is wicked from day, from morning to night. She's wicked as wicked gets. And that's what they, and they're going to, and they betray us.

You expect a Democrat, but Democrats do. But here, so now, go over, John, and read 1 John chapter 2, 15 through 17. 1 John chapter 2, what?

15 through 17. Okay. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world patheth away, and the lust thereof, that he that doeth the will of God abideth forever. So, Gerald, if the Lord loved the whole world, would we be instructed not to love the world, or would he be like aiding and abetting us in our sin? Say that again, Pastor.

I didn't want to get your question. My question is, if, you see, if that verse, because there are these preachers that are preaching that that verse means that God loved the entire world, he loved the entire world, just like, you know, there's a teaching that Christ died for everybody, but the Bible doesn't teach that. But this is a common teaching out there, because people aren't really looking into what the Bible actually teaches, because God doesn't fail. The Pope said that God failed at Calvary. The Pope said that the Christ failed at Calvary. Okay, and he said, humanly speaking, in other words, humanly speaking, he failed at Calvary.

Well, no, I don't think so. I think, was the Apostle Paul a human? Yeah, I think Peter was a human. What about John? I think they were all, did they tell you at all that the Christ failed at Calvary? Not one, not one Gospel. Did Christ ever say he failed at Calvary? Definitely not.

No. He said, I am what? The resurrection of the light. Well, I would say these Epistles, especially Second John, the first, second, third John, teach us that we're not to love the world or those in the world. We're to love the brethren. I don't know of anywhere in the Bible we're told to love those who are lost. One of those sound bites, Gerald, that you hear is the Bible says we're to hate the sin but love the sinner. The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says we're to love what God loves and hate what God hates.

Okay? That's what Scripture says. We're to go in and preach the Gospel to them.

Go into all the world and preach the Gospel. But we're not to love them. Well, in a way, we're to love them in the sense that we have compassion if we find someone hurting or thirsty for the word or in need.

We're to love them enough to care for them but not that love like we have for the brethren. Fellas, we're up against the hard one. Hang tight. We've got to switch it. We're going to a quick break.

We'll be right back. Every day average woman, man, child, how do they fight this? How do they stop this? So one of the things we've tried to do, and I've invested thousands of dollars in this. We're teamed with a group in Sweden that's about to come out with a book on the World Economic Forum.

It's currently in Dutch, so we've got to get it translated into English and available in the United States. But what we've done is compiled a massive spreadsheet of World Economic Forum trainees because they are everywhere. They're all over in American industry, government, big media, tech.

Okay? The starting point is people need to know who they're dealing with. We need to out these people. I mean, the term is used, doxing. As far as I'm concerned with these folks, doxing is good.

Let's go get them. Let's find out who they are and make sure they're not in our government because the loyalty they have is not to the American Constitution. It's not to the nation state. They are coming from a belief system that says that nation state is an obsolete idea and we have to have a one world government that is basically a fusion of the interests of corporations and politics, global politics. And we've got to start by finding out who they are, voting them out of office, making sure they are not part of our governments.

Two notable characters here in the United States are governors Inslee and Newsom. We've got to out these people. We've got to force them to account for whether or not they're Americans or are they globalists. And if they're globalists, they've got to get out. We've got to get rid of them. We've got to take back ownership of our country. If you believe in the Constitution, if you believe in the principles of free speech and personal autonomy, medical autonomy and autonomy at every other level, it's time to fight.

Or your children are going to live in basically a techno-fascism for the rest of their natural lives as serfs. Charles, that was Dr. Robert Malone. And do you know what he's famous for?

He didn't know. No, Charles, you there? You mean Gerald. Oh yeah, Gerald. I'm sorry.

Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I think he's had a lot to say about COVID-19 and so forth, isn't it? He invented the mRNA. He invented... Oh, there you go.

There you go. That's what they call the Vax. Now, when he invented it, he said, I invented it and I invented it for the military. It's a bioweapon. It is not a vaccine. It is a bioweapon, okay? And it's meant to make people sick and dead.

Okay? Now, here's the guy that invented it, right? I don't know how he's still alive because many others that have come out are not alive who have spoken out against us now. But anyhow, and so he says, don't take it. It's not a vaccine. It's a weapon.

Now, he's out and he's concerned now because what he invented on is killing people. They're using that to kill people. I said in their meetings, I've said this a million times, and I'd listen to the globalists, the World Health Organization, the Sierra Club, Planned Predator, all of these left-wing, how they talked about openly discussing how to depopulate the planet. They want to depopulate the planet. And that's what they're doing. And right now, people are dropping dead all over the country with these bioweapons, these kill shots, and yet people are being covered up by the fake news media. They're a part of this. Exactly.

Exactly. It's 100 percent, Pastor. I will not take the vaccine. Even before I heard of Dr. Malone, I said all along I would not take the vaccine. Have you seen the clip of Fauci from, what, 15 years ago or something, where he says, and I've seen it twice. I watch Newsmax, although I find some problems with Newsmax, but they do give you a lot of facts, and they've played him saying. They asked him about a girl who had the flu, and he said, well, if she's actually had the flu, the best vaccine of all is having the virus, and you do not need the flu if you've had the virus.

If you've had the flu, you may have it in the future, you may, but it'll be far less severe, and that's the best. Have you seen that one? Oh, yeah. That was put out 17 years ago, and of course, that's before he got bought and paid for and has all kinds of patents in these different medicines and treatments and therapies. Well, he had told enough lies within the first two or three months after this started. Once you see a liar, you don't believe anything they have to say, and just enough lies to let me know that anything he said, I should just believe the opposite. But I've got a whole bunch of articles I've archived that deal with all this, and most Americans are not like we are.

They can't think anymore. Yeah, I hear you, but that's not why you're here tonight. You are here tonight for a special meeting. We're going to be talking about what is a church. Now, some years ago, I had a fellow who was a friend of mine, and he was a deacon in a church, and he tells me, all churches are corporations. And I told him, no, churches are not corporations. You can't be a corporation and a church. I said, because corporations, corpus means non-living creation of the state, a church is the living body of Christ. You can't be both of those at the same time.

You can't do that. And he said, well, you know, you have to obey what the government tells you. And I said, no, you have to obey what God tells you.

We must obey God rather than man. So, Gerald Finney, attorney and head of the Biblical Law Association, you tell us, what is a church and what is a corporation? Well, a church is a spiritually terminal, heavenly body. A corporation is a temporal, earthly body, a creation of the state. It's a creature of state law. This is just one, a real short definition, whose existence is evidenced by a charter or certificate of incorporation issued by the state under whose laws it was incorporated. The creator of the corporation is the state.

The creator of a true church under Christ is the Lord Jesus Christ. The sovereign of the corporation is the state of incorporation. No corporation can exist without the consent or grant of the sovereign, since the corporation is a creature of the state and derives its powers by legislative grant. The right to act as a corporation is a special privilege conferred by the sovereign power. An incorporated church is obligated, it agrees, because it's entered into a contract, an agreement with the state, when it's applied to incorporate. It's obligated to have an elected officer, you find that in the Word of God, who conducts business meetings, meets statutory requirements, and I could go on and on.

Well, let me ask you some questions. Let me ask you some questions, because according to the Bible, again, the church is the bride of Christ. The church that's got one head has got one head, and that head is Jesus Christ, is that right?

Exactly, Ephesians 1.22, Colossians 1.18, very clear. Okay, now, if you're incorporated, if it's a corporation, who is the head of the corporation, under the Articles of Corporation? The state is the sovereign over the corporation for many purposes. Now, a court will not take jurisdiction over every matter that comes to them concerning the state. If you are a First Amendment church, and let me say this, the First Amendment religion clause is a statement of the biblical principle of separation of church and state. So, if you are a First Amendment church, you are a church under Christ alone.

You have submitted to no law. The First Amendment protects churches who want to do things God's way. And so do corresponding state constitutional provisions.

In their Bill of Rights, they call them different things, Declaration of Rights and so forth. The only way a church can become a creature of the state is by choosing to do so. And in America, churches can do that without persecution. Our Baptist forefathers, as you know very well, brother, paid dearly when they said, we're not going to bow down to this church-state establishment.

We're not going to bow down to civil law. Through the Catholic Church, and then in the Dark Ages, we've all heard the Inquisition, but before the Inquisition, millions had already died who would not bow down to this church-state establishment. Through the Protestant establishments, Luther in Germany, John Knox in Scotland, the Church of England, Zwingli under Calvin, they all instituted persecutions. And then it came to the colonies, and we know that spiritual warfare that went on in the colonies that gave us our First Amendment. So they paid the price. Churches in America can do things God's way without persecution, and yet they choose to become creatures of the state because they want some perceived benefit.

Not spiritual, eternal, heavenly benefits, but temporal, earthly benefits, and they're not benefits at all because they started a church on the road to heresy and, well, to war and apostasy. And now in most churches, you mentioned Joel Olsley, they're nothing but businesses. They find out what you want and give it to you. I was in business many years ago, and I learned that right off. I measured in business administration. What does a business do?

It finds out what you want and then gives it to you, and if you don't agree you need it, then you try to persuade them that you need it. So they're nothing but businesses. I was going to say, you used the word that the church becomes a creature of the state by choice. Isn't it more by capitulating on God's word? Well, yeah, but I don't know that many of them don't know God's word. Many of them, when this is brought to their attention, because they've never heard of this before, because they never studied the doctrine of the church in their Bible college seminary, or if they should have been trained at the church, which very few are anymore.

The church was already sold out, so they were taught, if you're a church, the first thing you do if you're planning a new church is incorporate 501c3. They don't understand the doctrine of the church, most of them, and if you bring it to their attention, they do not want to hear what the Bible has to say about it. See, there's principles. They don't know the principles. In order to apply a principle, you've got to know it. So you've got the Bible principles. They don't want to know, because then they would be, I think they know that they would be held more responsible by our Lord, so they want to remain in ignorance.

And they come up with all kinds of excuses. And I've got pages on the website that deal with all these. One of them is analysis of false reasons of Christians and lawyers for church corporate 501c3 status or legal status of any kind.

I've heard all, well every once in a while I'll hear a new one that's not... Why don't you give your website out so people can go up to that and see what you're talking about? Okay, if you'll just put in your browser there, Gerald Finney dot com, it's spelled J as in Jack, E-R-A-L-D Finney, spelled F-I-N-N-E-Y dot com. If you just go there and just browse around and listen, if you go over to the contact tab, the very last tab at the top there, it gives my phone number, email address and everything else. And if you've got something you want to look at and you want to know where it's at on the website, just call me for any other reason. I'd be glad to talk with you.

Now, I'm going to be Joe Sixpack. I go to church now and I sit there and certainly God's pleased with me because I spent a whole hour on Sunday morning in the church now. And in our church, they teach this. They teach that Romans 13 teaches that you can have two heads, that you can have Jesus as the head of the church, but in obeying Jesus, you have to obey the government and you can have the government as the head of the church, so you can have two heads. Okay, there's only one thing that has two heads.

We call that a monster, right? Exactly. And that very thing, brother, on that one page, if you go to the first tab, go all the way to the bottom, analysis of false reason. If you go down, there's a link to render unto God the things that are his, a systematic study of Romans 13 and related verses, and it gives you a contextual understanding of Romans 13 in some detail. And I know you could preach on it right now, but you don't have two or three hours, and you already understand it, but anybody who wants to look at that, just go right there. I mean, if you want to talk to you or me about it, give me a call.

I know you're so busy, you may not have time, but I sit here and take calls all day long on all kinds of things, and I'd be glad to discuss that with them. But see, on that, Romans 13, I called the pastor when I came to Amarillo. I'd already chosen my church before I even moved here, you know, and it's not incorporated, not 501c3. But anyway, I got a flyer on my door. They had come by, and I wasn't home, I guess, and they left a flyer. So it was a fundamental Baptist church, so I called the pastor, and I just asked him a number of questions.

Instead of just moving here, I got a number of questions. But I went down, and I got to the question concerning separation of church and state. He said, oh, we believe in obeying every law of the government, and we believe in Romans 13.

We obey. I said, what? What about the First Amendment? Well, first of all, Romans 13 doesn't teach that.

I gave about a five-minute lecture on that. And then I said, what about the First Amendment to the United States Constitution? It says you do not have to incorporate a church.

You don't have to get 501c3, and you're protected by the First Amendment. He just left that argument, and he said, well, back in the 80s, we were talking about getting out of our corporate status and getting out of the 501c3. But have you ever heard of David Gibbs? That's what he asked me. Oh, yeah.

He said, oh, yeah, yeah, definitely have. He said, well, we called him, and he advised us that we definitely needed to stay incorporated to provide limited liability to our members. And that's another argument I answer. You have less liability as a church if you're incorporated.

I mean, you have less liability if you're a First Amendment church, not a legal entity, not a corporation, not a 501c3, than you have as an incorporated and or 501c3 church. And I don't have time, of course, to explain that. But that argument is readily discounted. And again, it'd take five or ten minutes to give you a nutshell explanation of that. So all these things people come up with are unsound biblically, and they're unsound even rationally, you know. Well, let me ask you a question, Gerald. If you go ahead and you sign a contract with someone, an agreement, and they put that contract out there, he says just sign right there where the X is, and you sign it. Now, you don't read it.

You don't go in there, you don't read it. But he told you to sign it, so you signed it, right? Now, if you've done that, are you responsible to be in compliance with that contract you signed even though you didn't read it? Well, yeah, and the thing is, the government is not putting that contract in front of you. If you want to incorporate, you've got to contact your secretary of state, apply for corporate status.

If you want 501c3 status, you have to fill out Form 1023, and Form 1023, for example, explains the basics of what 501c3 is. So you've got to fill it out in order to answer the questions. You've got to do some reading. And of course, a lot of pastors say, well, we're going to preach, we're going to do what we want to. You're breaking your word.

How does the Lord feel about that? If you say, well, I'm going to take advantage, I'm going to enter into that agreement. They're going to give me this, and in return, I'm expected to do this and give them that. But they give you your status, but then you say, so what? I don't know how anyone can live with themselves taking that attitude because I, as a Christian, am expected to keep my word from the Lord. The Lord expects me to keep my word, my agreement, my contract. But wait a minute.

Exactly just what you just said. So let me ask you this, then. Does ignorance of the law excuse you from the responsibility of obeying? In other words, if I'm driving down the road and speed limit is 35, well, I don't see no sign that says 35, so I'm going 85. Because I didn't see no 35 sign, am I still accountable for the speed limit? Well, yeah, and you can have another question. Does ignorance of the word of God excuse you before God for violating His word?

No, it doesn't excuse you, and you're held to a higher degree of responsibility. If you've read the Bible at all, you know, if you get in church, a good church, like your church or a good church, you know that Christians should become knowledgeable. They should exercise wisdom.

And how do they do that? Through the word of God. Plus, you know, Brother Ernie, we have a conscience. We know a lot of things. There are some things that we know are right and wrong, you know.

And even when we're lost, we know, you know, and we could get into Romans 1, 18 through 32, but, you know, when they're conscious, when we're given over to a reprobate mind and so forth. But, exactly, Brother, you're hitting a lot of nails on the head, Brother. See, if I ask you this, then, if I sign an agreement stating that I am an agent, I'm an agent, and then they come back and they say, well, now you're our agent. I say, no, now I'm a pastor. They say, no, now you sign an agreement, you're an agent. And I say, no, no, I'm a pastor.

You see, the Bible tells us that with church polity, church government, that Christ in Christ alone is the head of the church, and then the local congregation, the under shepherd, is the pastor of that local congregation, and he's the shepherd of the pastor. But when you get into that 501c3, you agree that you're an agent. So I wouldn't have looked that word agent up. You know, it's got two definitions. One is intercessor between state and the assembly, and the other is a spy for the state against the assembly. So can you be the shepherd and the pastor of the assembly and at the same time be a spy against it?

Oh, definitely not. But, you know, that's the thing. A lot of churches, they get their 501c3 status, and they just forget about it, you know, and they know they can get away with it because the IRS does not have the resources. I was talking with a CPA here in Amarillo, and this subject came up, and, you know, I mentioned the fact that a lot of these churches aren't even honoring their 501c3 status and so forth, and he said, well, in this area, they need 15 agents.

They've got two. So they do not have the resources to monitor churches. But, you know, Biden, I think, just put in billions more for the IRS, and there's coming a day in America, unless things change and go the other direction, which I don't foresee, when they're going to come all out against churches, and those true churches under Christ are going to have to go underground like they do in China and North Korea and so forth, because they will not allow you to meet like they did in the former Soviet Union, you know. They will not allow you to meet without arresting, usually, they get the pastor. If you meet in a building, they'll tear the building down, you know, and so forth.

And if you don't get out, when they tell you. Right now, you can make these contracts and agreements, and you can become an agent of the state, and they can't monitor you. See, and in Texas, many churches are incorporated.

Now, some of them follow the rules, but a lot of them, just forget them. I've dealt with numerous churches in Texas. They haven't done anything they agreed to do for 20 years. And, see, in Texas, churches do not have to submit a yearly report.

They don't have to pay a yearly fee as nonprofit corporations. See, they thought, well, these are churches, these are Christians, they sign an agreement, they're going to keep their word. See what I mean? Yeah, well, let me just say this, we're running up to the clock.

Two things. I had some, years ago, I had two former IRS agents on the program, and they told me, they said, you know what, we could never figure out why in the world would these pastors want to place their congregation under our authority when they don't have to. All churches, even under the IRS code, are tax-exempt. All churches are tax-exempt under the IRS code, but more than that, under God's word, the Bible churches are, God's church is exempt.

You just said something there that's very important, okay, and I have an article that thoroughly explains this. All churches are not tax-exempt. Only those who choose to become tax-exempt are, churches are not automatically tax-exempt.

Section 508C1A of the IRS code doesn't say all churches are automatically tax-exempt, and therefore do not have to file. Hold on, we're up against a hard break. We'll pick this up on the other side of this, so hang tight. We'll be right back right after this with more. Don't go away. More to come.

You'll see a lot more. Be right back. That's W-R-W-L dot org. Mail your donations to What's Right, What's Left Ministries, 14781 Sperry Road, Newberry, Ohio, 44065. If you missed part of tonight's program, you can check out the podcast at thewordcleveland.com, thewordcleveland.com. Once again, thank you for listening and supporting What's Right, What's Left Ministries, the voice of the Christian resistance. Stay tuned. The second hour is coming up next.