This is the Truth Network. Welcome to If Not Forgot. Stories of Hopelessness That Turn to Hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. All right, this is If Not For God with Mike Zwick, and I've got a Ryan Shea here.
And I tell you what, I love to have the younger people because they've got the excitement, they've got the fire, and they've got the passion. And Ryan, you actually played baseball for Liberty University, is that right? Used to. 21 to 23, I played.
Okay, not super long, but. long enough.
Now, did you grow up you said you grew up right outside of DC, but um Liberty is a Christian school. Did you grow up in a Christian household or? Yeah, I grew up uh we went to church growing up. Uh I I would say we lean more on like You know, as long as you don't do certain things, you're a Christian. Right.
As long as you don't smoke, drink, party, have sex before you're married, you're a Christian. We went to church every Sunday, but I didn't really start following Jesus, I would say, until halfway through my college, college time.
So kind of a mix between I knew of him, just like the demons do, right? But my life was not surrendered. I was not committed at all.
So what happened in college? It's a good question.
So I got there and my freshman year, I got to a place where I was surrounded by people who were not following Jesus. I thought that knowledge was what kept me in the faith. And so my senior year of high school, I read through the entire Bible in like six months being an athlete. I was like, I'm going to just do whatever I can as an athlete, competitive. I was like, I'm going to just tell me what to do and I'll check it off the board.
Did it, got to college and jumped off the deep end of sin, of you know, party, girls, doing this, go out, whatever, and did that for a long time, man. That doesn't happen at Liberty University. Oh, it does. It does. I'll tell you what.
Sin will find you regardless of what. Where you are, and I'll tell you that with an explanation point: like, it doesn't matter where you go, what the boundaries are, sin can find you. And so I lived that life for a long time. Got really good at mastering the art of disguise. And so for a long time, a lot of people perceived me as, like, oh, this is the guy that posts the verses and, like, points to the sky when he gets a hit.
But, like, no one knew who I was behind closed doors. And it was scary. 'Cause I got really good at it. I got really good at living as a counterfeit. Um and then a couple of months went by.
I finally got to this place where I was like, What am I doing with my life? Like, all the things that I wrote in my Bible at age eight that I'd never do, I'd been doing them. Like, no problem, no conviction, no problem whatsoever. And God hit me one night. He's like, Don't be claiming my name and acting like this, man.
And and so ever since then my life has changed and For the glory of God, I mean, only by his grace did he call me where I was. Yeah, and you actually wrote a book, but I remember one of the very first passages in the Bible that I memorized was Revelation 3:15 through 16. Do you know what it is? Come on, I know exactly what it is. Tell me: you're neither hot nor you're cold, you are lukewarm, and he's going to vomit you out of his mouth.
That's scary, man. Which is very scary. Yeah, very scary. And so, the name of the book is called Counterfeit Christianity, and your name is Ryan Shea, and you spell it S-H-I-E-H. S-H-I-E-H.
I wonder who would have a harder time in a name pronouncing competition, me or you? Zwick or Shea. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You probably hear him about as often, but what inspired you to write the book?
Yeah, I. I learned at some point that I can only play the part for so long. And I started to see how many Christians, not just like people, Christians were doing the same thing. Where it's like they got really good at mastering the art of disguise, where people thought they were something, but they were really someone else. And ultimately, like you can get good at fooling people.
You could even fool yourself sometimes. You ain't fooling God, man. Like, God sees and God knows. And so the heart behind it is just like, look, we need to get back to a radical all-in surrender with nothing holding us back, no matter what it costs, no matter what people say, no matter where it leaves us. And ultimately, getting to this place where devotion is a priority as a Christian.
It's not just you sign up, go to church, and do a couple of Sunday schools, but you actually believe that if he is Lord, he's Lord over all, right? He's either Lord of all or he's not Lord at all. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, another verse that really stuck to me when I first became a Christian was this. It's Matthew 7, 21 through 23.
He says, Jesus said, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? And in your name, drive out demons, and in your name perform any miracles. Then I will say to them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.
And so when the Lord spoke to you and he said, stop claiming my name while you're living like this, you know, I think especially in the South, and I know you grew up in the D.C. area, but especially in the South, everybody's a Christian. That's right. Or when I was growing up, everybody was a Christian. And a lot of these people are having sex.
A lot of these people are getting drunk. And it's like, well, what is a Christian? And so that's kind of what your book is about. What does it really mean to be a Christian and not a lukewarm Christian? Yeah, for sure.
I think you look at the world around us today. Everyone, like you said, would say they're a Christian. And like From some aspects, that's good. Hollywood's having more faith-based movies, the younger generation's flocking back to the church, men are flocking back to the church. But what you're saying is spot on, because I think a lot of people think Christianity is just about recognition.
Where it's like, I recognize there's a God. I recognize Jesus is historically accurate. At the end of the day, if there's no repentance, there is no Christianity. Right, Jesus' call is not to recognize me and admit that I was real, it was like come and die. That was his call for us.
It's like you have to let go of your old life to then be born again and come up as a new creation. Like, that's the call Christianity. And so, yeah, a lot of people are claiming something but experiencing something different because they don't really know what they're actually believing. And again, I told you before we started: I don't care how much you believe in something, if it's wrong. It's not true.
Like you could have the size of a mountain. Jesus says a mustard sea-size faith is what matters because it's the object of your faith. What are you actually believing? Because if you believe in something that's true, regardless of how much it is, how much you have this feeling, it's true. And that can carry you into eternity.
For a lot of us. Yeah, Billy Graham told a story years ago. He said he saw a guy years ago. He said he picked up a football. He was in the middle of a football field and he picked it up and he ran the ball and he ran it all the way into the end zone.
He said the problem was he was running the wrong way. And he said this guy was sincere. He believed that he was going the right way, but he was dead wrong. And Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. He says that nobody comes to the Father but by me.
Yeah. I love that. I would say uh the problem. Everyone loves Jesus. Until you define who he is.
Okay. And so, like, everyone's okay with the idea of Jesus. Like, Jesus saved me from my sins, Jesus loves me, Jesus wins, athletic games, fine. But, like, until we get down to the nitty-gritty of like, okay, give up your life, take up your cross, follow me, deny yourself, right? Foresee everything you have, give it all the way to the poor, and follow me fullheartedly.
Then it's like, whoa. Like, don't tell me what to do. Yeah. You know? And then we almost get offended by his lordship when, like, he's the creator.
You know, and because of his position of creator, he gets to call the shots. Like, a lot of the reason why we don't follow him well is not because we don't know, it's because we don't like it. We don't like submitting to him as Lord, you know, and so it's really a pride problem at the end of the day. Yeah, and we can't really live a double life. And as a matter of fact, going back to that verse in Revelation 3:15 through 16, at one point in the verse, he says, I would rather you be cold.
Than lukewarm. And when I think about that, I'm like, no, of course you can't mean that. I mean, you know, you want us to say thank you, God, or thank you, Jesus, or whatever, but he's saying he would rather you be ice cold. And one of the things that I thought about, Ryan, years ago was that if you're ice cold, then somebody can talk to you and you can get on fire. But as long as you're lukewarm, you think you're okay.
But see, we can't be lukewarm. We can't stay in our sin. And people get mad at me for this. I mean, I say you can't be a Christian who is living with your girlfriend. You can't be a Christian who is smoking crack every day.
I mean, these two things cannot coexist. I know you see the bumper stickers coexist sometimes, but those two things cannot coexist. And so, a life that is dedicated to Christ, I hear him saying in the Bible, he says, You got to take up your cross daily and follow me. Yeah, he says, You're either for me or against me. That's very binary.
It's not, there's not a third option there, right? And the modern term would be like fence riding. you know, where it's like I want a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And here's what I would say to your listeners, man, is like The devil loves the fence. He loves when you're hanging out and sitting on the fence because you know what happens when you sit for long enough?
You become numb. Your legs get numb, you can't feel it anymore. And that's what's happened to a lot of us: we start sinning so much, we don't even feel it anymore. And then it's like God gave them up to their desires. And that's a dangerous place to be, man.
You know, when you have no idea what you're doing because you've done it for so long, you become calloused in your mind, Ephesians 4, of what you used to know to be true, is now it's like doesn't even matter. You know, because you sat on this fence for so long and like eventually, yeah, you have to pick. Yeah. And so the the theme of the book, you said there's eight different Yeah, eight different counterfeit statements.
So each chapter ultimately points to the same message, but each chapter is a different counterfeit statement. And so it'd be like, you know, a counterfeit faith has a self-centered view of reality, a counterfeit faith sees no danger in sin, or a counterfeit faith doesn't share their faith. And so it's really taken a lot of different areas that we kind of push away sometimes and really look at an in-depth idea of like, okay, what does it mean to really flee sin? What does it mean to really have Jesus on the throne and nothing else? Nothing else in my life?
What does it mean to value his character more so than what he can do to benefit my life, like a genie in the bottle? And so we really unpack a lot of these things, but ultimately they do tie into this one area of like, you have to be all in, man. This is not a 82.4% surrender faith.
So you're either in or out. And I think it tells a lot about what you actually believe by how you do live it out. Yeah, and as we talked before, is that you know, there, as a Christian, there are some things that you have to give up, you know, and you may have to give up the partying, like you were talking about. You may have to give up the women or the men or whatever it is. But sometimes I think it not only means giving up some stuff, but it also means.
Actually, saying, I'm going to do some things that other people are not doing. Do you know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And that's the problem that we see in the church today: just stop doing blank. you know, stop sleeping around, stop going to the parties.
And it's like, listen, man, like I heard it said once that sin is an irrational response to a rational desire. Which I think is really good. Because if you think about it, like you going to the party scene every Saturday night, it's not because you're addicted to party, it's because you feel lonely. You don't have community. And so, what you're saying is like, okay, yeah, stop going to the party, but start going to a community group and start plugging in at your church.
And you're right, there's more to this than just pulling back and like white-knuckling. You know, it's like at some point, you just start implementing new things. And I think that's where that new creation language comes in. It's like you're not doing what you used to do because you're not who you used to be. This is a new call for you.
And so, yeah, I would hope that there are some new things that you're doing along the way. That's really good. And, you know, for me, I see a lot of Christians who are just as depressed, miserable, blind, naked, and dumb as the world is. And for me, when I look at the Bible, I see that as Christians, people, the world is supposed to look at us and say, Let me ask you for the reason for the hope that you have within you. And I think the problem with many of us, Ryan, is that we're talking about answering questions that nobody's asking.
To me, that's a problem. Yeah. Big problem. I think. I think we're we don't I think we don't care.
We don't care about people. You know, a lot of us are totally content with showing up at church, giving 10% every other month, you know, going to our life group once a year. And it's like, that's fine with me. And I'll tell you, that's a counterfeit faith, man. Like, you are not designed to consume.
The entire time. Like your life has been given to be poured out as a drink offering. It's like, why do you think you're still here? Like, if the goal was for you to just be saved and leave, like, God would take you immediately. If you got saved, he would take you home, but you're still here.
You know, like, there's still work to be done. But a lot of us take this American Western consumeristic idea into our faith, and then all we live is for ourselves. Yeah. And so the good thing is, and we're not sitting here trying to beat anybody up, but I think the good thing is, is that if you're sitting here listening today and that you're saying, man, I'm really not doing what I need to do. I'm really not, I could be doing a lot more.
The good news is, is your life is not over yet. You and I were both at that same point in our lives where we said, we're not living our lives right. We're not doing enough. We're not really living our lives for the Lord. But in an instant, just like that, if we surrender to Jesus and we say, okay, Jesus, not only do I want to die to myself, but I want to live for you on a day-to-day basis, it's never too late to make that decision.
That's so good, Mike. And that would be my encouragement too. It's like, look, if you think the solution. It is to just white knuckle yourself through life now, like you're missing it, man. Like, if you think all this conviction is for, okay, I'm gonna just try harder.
you're gonna end up worse, worse off than where you were. You know, ultimately, gratitude is the start to your surrender where it's like, look, I can't do it. Like, I'm not good enough. I've tried so hard for so long to be a certain way, and I'm not good enough, but that's okay because by grace, I'm saved through faith. And if that's my lens of life, I could then live in that same grace that saved me right now.
Like, that grace carries me through all the way until I get home. You know, and so that's yeah, I would encourage the listeners that like, don't give up because you feel like you're becoming weary of trying. Like, that's actually okay. Yeah, you being weak is where he then strengthens you to then live the life you've been called to live. It's like oftentimes you have to get to that point of I can't.
That's a good place to be. Yeah. That's really good. And I remember Charles Spurgeon many years ago, he said he met somebody and they said, well, I don't think I'm good enough to follow Jesus or I don't think I'm good enough to get into the kingdom of heaven. And he said, you're close.
You get it. You get it. You're not good enough. That's right. But he is.
And so he can help clean you up. And I think a lot of times we talk about subtraction. You can't do this. You can't do that. You can't do the other.
And there is some of that. There are some things that we can't do that everybody else is doing. And sometimes I think initially when we try to quit those things, it can be tough. But I think when you, for me, when we talk about depression or I'm not feeling great or whatever, you mentioned something earlier that is really, really important was gratitude. And for me, when I start to feel a little down, Ryan, I spend time praising and worshiping God.
And I'll tell you what, man, when I start praising God, it's hard to be depressed. Amen, man. I think that is what Paul means when he says this is your spiritual act of worship. We think worship is just a song on a stage with hundreds of w like your life. In and of itself is worship.
You know, and that's what helped. It's changed my life, man. It's like, if I can live, like that feeling when you listen to a worship song, it's like, oh my gosh, I'll do anything for God. That feeling. Like, that's the feeling that we've been called to carry.
At our jobs, you know, at the Christmas party, at soccer practice, like that feeling and worship that you only have, quote unquote, when you're in that song, if you can carry that out the rest of your life, like that's a life well lived. You know, that's faithfulness. If you can learn to carry that gratitude beyond just a song on a Sunday.
So, when you, what does your prayer life look like right now? Yeah, that's a good question. I pray every single morning, Lord, please sustain me today because I can't do it. I can't do it. I try to keep an open perspective of prayer throughout the day.
That helps me a lot, man. I'm just constantly trying to talk to God and try to listen. But yeah, a lot of what I've learned in the past year is like. Admitting my own weakness and shortcomings is what then gives me strength. It's not me trying to portray strength for God to be impressed.
You know, he can't perfect strengths. Think about that. God can't. Everybody's like, whoa, God cannot perfect your strengths, right? The scripture says he makes perfect your weakness.
In your weakness, he makes you strong. And so a lot of times we just have to put the blinders down, let the walls lower and say, God, I need help. And God's like, boom. That's where I've been trying to get you all along. That's it.
And so you've seen a lot of growth because you really got radically saved and on fire for Jesus in college. Are you actively involved in evangelism or is it mainly through the radio or what do you do? Yeah, for sure. So I will travel and speak a couple of times quarterly. I currently live and reside in Lynchburg, Virginia.
I work with Liberty University and their School of Divinity. I help and teach out with their evangelism classes for freshmen and sophomore. Then I also get to host a podcast that the School of Divinity does called The Refining Flame. How cool is that? It's an awesome opportunity, man.
So grateful.
So grateful.
So we talk with Liberty leadership, convocation guests, pastors from all around the nation that come on and do who are some names that we might know. We had a good friend Joshua Broome on a couple of months ago. Pastor Nick Floyd down in Arkansas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Clayton King was with us.
Okay. And so they come on because we look at all those guys as like they got their lives together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they come on and they're like, far from it. Yeah.
You know, and they tell all their struggles. And I. I think we really connect with people in our weakness. And so, vulnerability has been a door to really reach my generation. That's what we want.
My generation is like, I want to be the fly on the wall in this conversation, you know, and get the real you off the stage. Yeah. So, it's been fun. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but my life is so busy during the day that it's hard to kind of stop.
Sure. What I find when I really want to spend time with the Lord, it's first thing in the morning. And I know how you said you pray first thing in the morning, but it's like this morning I woke up at 4 a.m. And it's funny, I was going to take, I have a sleeping pill that I take. It's hard for me to sleep without it.
But I had the sleeping pill and I actually dropped it on the ground and I said, okay, God, I guess you're trying to tell me you want me to spend time in prayer. And I think it's little things like that. A lot of times God doesn't yell at us. The devil will be in your face. He'll yell at you, you know, follow the world, this, that, and the other.
But. A lot of times God speaks to us in this still small voice. And Ryan, I'm afraid if we don't listen really well, we might miss it. That's so good. Yeah, I think the leading problem with Christians today.
is competition. You are being fed from so many different angles. Yeah. Right. And listen, man, it's not like, like, think about your addiction to pornography or alcohol or whatever it is.
Like, it's not a singular issue. Your soul is being fought for by a multitude of things, right? And so, yeah, I think we need to be on guard. And I love how you mentioned that. I someone asked me the other day, it's like what does it take to drift?
How do I know I'm drifting? It's like nothing. You will drift. That's good. It will happen.
That's good. It takes absolutely nothing for you to drift. That's good. But it's good. If you live like you're controlling the current and you're a really good sailor down the river of life and morality, it's like you're going to get caught up, man.
Like, you're going to miss it. You have to be aware of that all the time. And so what do you do to stay? Do you have a certain regimen where you read your Bible so many chapters a day?
So usually what I have done in the past couple of years is I've read through the whole Bible in a year. I've gotten to a point now where I find it more fruitful to pray, have worship. I try to keep worship like I want it running in my veins, just like always in my mind. And then we'll read a psalm and then a passage of scripture that I'm studying. But something that I've tried to commit more this year, honestly, Mike, is I've wanted to be better at like longer scripture memory.
And so like prolonged passages, like not just a verse or two, but five, six verses that really like that I could speak over my mind throughout the day. And it changes things, man. It's like you'd be dead without blood flowing. And I'm trying to figure out, okay, if I don't have scripture flowing through my veins, I'm a sit and duck. Yeah, the Bible says that I have written your word on my heart so that I might not sin against you.
And it says in Psalm 119, 105, he says, thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And so it's good that you stay in the word. And so this book that you've got, and it's called Counterfeit Christianity by Ryan Shea. S-H-E-I-E. I-E.
Okay. S-H-I-E-H. S-H-I-E-E. I'll tell you what, funny story. The reason why it's spelled that way is the I after E accept after C English rule.
So it would have been E-I, because my grandfather is Chinese. Yeah, yeah. But it's I-E because it's the old rule in fifth grade. I after E, except after C, and it's an H.
So. It's IE instead of EI. Wow. Yeah. And so you're in your last year right now of getting your master's.
What do you want to do when you get out? Um Would love to stay at Liberty and uh really Boom and plant this podcast ministry in the school divinity. I have a heart for ministry, man. Would love to pastor one day, but ultimately, like right now, I have a unique opportunity to really steward young students that are coming in, freshman, sophomore. They look up to us in a big way, haven't been there for so long.
And I love to see what God's doing in this generation. And it's an honor to be part of it.
So I would love to stay in it.
Well, everybody's talking about revival right now. They're talking about revivals going throughout all the college campuses.
Well, you've been in college the last few years. You said you're seeing something? Absolutely. I was telling the dean of School of Divinity the first day of the semester, I said, I have never seen Liberty University this on fire in five and a half years here. Wow.
And it's like, it's getting more and more devoted because I think the world, like, we've tried it. Like, I think the generations are coming after us. It's like, look, man, you tried the party scene and I'm watching it show up in your life right now. You're not happy. You know, the alcoholism doesn't make you feel any better.
I'm not going to do that. You know, like, as susceptible as we are, we ain't stupid. Yeah. Yeah. We ain't got to keep doing the same things that we're watching the generations before us do and fail over and over again.
And that's what I think they're putting their minds to. They're like, I'm going to give this Jesus guy a chance. And he's showing up in a big way, which he will. That's his promise. He's like, look, if you surrender and submit to me, I'm coming, man.
Yeah. And I know years ago, there were pastors and everybody talking about, well, it looks like Christianity is dying away because the younger people don't want to hear any part of it or they don't want to see it. But now what they're seeing, and I've seen studies recently, is where they're actually saying the younger people are more interested in Jesus than the older people. And I've never seen that in my life. You know what I mean?
And so, but it's good. I'm seeing it in my own neighborhood. I have a neighbor of mine, a friend of mine, who's atheist. His wife doesn't believe in God. Nothing.
He said, but my son all of a sudden is just interested. And I'm like, praise God. Praise the Lord for it. Yeah, I think there's so many good examples around the world, especially with social media. It's like that's the leading voice in a lot of the next generation's minds, especially with the phones and stuff.
And so, if we could just, and it doesn't matter who you are, man. Like, you could be 50, you could be 65, you could be 22. I don't care how old you are. Like, you can join this fight in raising up this next generation because this is the future, man. Like, they're the future of the church, the future of our country, the future of the world.
And so, regardless of who you are, like, Get in the game, man. Like, people are waiting to find true life in Christ. And, like, you can definitely be a vessel to do that. Yeah. And one of the things that I've seen when I do evangelism is that, you know, people are always afraid.
Oh, nobody's going to want to hear this or people aren't going to want to hear this, whatever. But then when I start to, when I open my mouth, and Stu always says, Philip opened up his mouth when he talked to the eunuch. He said, Philip opened up his mouth. But when I open up my mouth and I just start talking to people, I realize that people are looking for something.
Now, they may be looking for love in all the wrong places. They may be looking for it in the wrong, but they're looking for something. And I think a lot of them don't realize that what they're really looking for is Jesus. I love that. I think this, I'm going to botch the stat, but it's somewhere around 85% of people are willing to listen.
Yeah. 15% of Christians are willing to share. Jeez, something crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think you're right, Mike.
It's like you. And the other thing is like, but even if you do share, we have this pressure and responsibility. Like, we're going to get it all right, and we're going to say the right words, and we don't know what to say. It's like, it's not you speaking anyway. Like, you can make the decision beforehand to say, all right, God, use me.
Try me. Use me however way you want. And you watch, man. Like, he'll do something. But it doesn't start from your scripture memory or your theological application or what.
It's like, are you willing? That's the question. It's like, are you willing to? to let them use you. Yeah, that's true.
And I saw there was a guy who said, he said that miracles show up when we go out and do evangelism. And it's funny. It's like we went out. There's a lady from our church and she's been handing out clothes to the homeless and all of that. But I went out with her and I started praying for a couple of people and they said they got healed.
You know, they had some pain and there was some homeless people or whatever. And it's like it never would have happened if we wouldn't have gone out there and done it. You know, so I love that you're excited about this. You're moving. You're moving in the right direction.
And so. If there's something that if there's one thing that people we've talked about the hunger that people have that your book could give them, what would you say that it would be? Yeah, I would say Jesus is trustworthy for you to give him your entire life. I think the thing at the end of the day, man, like the reason why people don't give their lives to Jesus is they don't trust him. They don't trust that what he says is true.
What he says is good, right? Instead of looking at the Bible as like a bunch of rules that you're not allowed to break. What if it's this is the best way for me to live? Like the abundant life, John 10:10, that's found in Christ is found right there in the scripture. It's like he's giving it to you.
But we look at it at the opposite: you're trying to, you're fun police, man. You're just trying to make me, you know, bored and not be able to go out and do all this stuff with my friends. But if we actually trust him, it's like, look, this is the best way for you to exist. It's right here. And he's willing, you're good.
Like, regardless of what you see in your life or suffering or circumstance, like God is willing your good. And if you can trust that, you could start to navigate whatever comes your way with, like, all right, bring it on, man. Like, I'm riding with Jesus. I'm riding with Jesus. If he's wrong, I'm riding with him when he's wrong.
I'm going on a limb. You know, and it's like, but he's not wrong. He's never wrong. Never wrong. Never wrong.
So trust him. Yeah, just trust him. And so it's called Counterfeit Christianity. And. Ryan Shea, spell it again?
S-H-I-E-H. But you also have a website if people want to check it out. Yep, ryanshea.com, R-Y-N-S-H-I-E-H.com. And then the book's on Amazon. That's probably the best way for you to buy it.
But Amazon website, would love to connect with all your listeners and be a resource for that. That'd be great. When did the book come out? It's out now. You can buy it right now.
Okay. Buy it right now.
So go out and pick up the book, Counterfeit Christianity by Ryan Shea. Thanks for coming on, Ryan. Yeah, thanks, Mike.
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