A Conversation with Kirby Anderson Part 2

TNG Radio, where today's culture and timeless truths come together.

It's reasoned relevant content apologetics, worldview, and answers to the questions that you need to know. From Alex McFarland Ministries, this is Truth for a New Generation Radio. And now, the man who preached in 50 states in 50 days, speaker, writer, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland. One of my favorite verses is Psalm 119, verse 93. It says, I will never forget thy words, for through them I found life.

Hi, Alex McFarland here. Welcome to another edition of Truth for a New Generation. And, you know, I wrote a book on Psalm 119, which is one of my favorite chapters of the Bible, because those 176 verses, 22 eight-verse stanzas, or strophes, they're actually called, S-T-R-O-P-H-E-S, those strophes, all of them, who knows what they are?

I bet you know. It's a tribute to the Word of God. And Psalm 119 uses words like statutes, precepts, testimonies. It also says the law of the Lord. Now a law is something that is really unbreakable. Now, people can violate a law, but they don't really break the law. In no sense, really, has anyone ever broken the law of gravity.

Now people have been able to create airplanes that fly and create airfoil that creates lift, and people have in some ways temporarily circumvented a law, but the laws of God, like the laws of nature, are for all times and all people and all places. And today what we're going to do on the show, we're going to talk with two men who are helping people find the Gospel and new life in Jesus. I do want to talk about the Word of God, which so many people, even the church, today seem to be either unaware of or maybe in defiance of. And so talking about those wonderful words of life through which we find Jesus the Savior, I've got with me two very special guests, Kirby Anderson, who you've heard me mention him many times, Steven Cable.

They are both of Probe Ministries in Texas. But guys, thanks for your time and welcome back to Truth For a New Generation. Well, it's certainly good to be with you, and I'm certainly looking forward to this conversation because, after all, the foundation of our faith is in God's Word. Amen.

It is. You know, Kirby, you and I were talking last night, and you came to the Lord. Were you a college student when you became a believer?

No, a high school student, but growing up in Berkeley, California, which is a little different than Tupelo, Mississippi, for example, or Greenville, North Carolina, wherever, you know. And you found Christ in Berkeley, California? Yeah, and because of some of the apologetics. I think one of the reasons why I'm in apologetics is because I had heard somebody mention some books, and I was in a bookstore on Telegraph Avenue, and I found one of those books. It was a book by C.S.

Lewis called Mere Christianity. And then later, in a Christian bookstore, I found the other book. It was by John Stott on basic Christianity. And as I read through those books, I realized that I was not a Christian and became a Christian. And so in some respects, this whole idea of apologetics, something you do every day, was instrumental in my salvation, and certainly it fit so well that when later, as you met yesterday, my wife, she began to tell me about this organization she heard that had just started called Probe Ministries.

Shortly after it was formed, after I finished at graduate school at Yale, I joined Probe Ministries. You know, I'm glad you're bringing up names like Francis Schaeffer. And folks, we are talking about apologetics and biblical worldview, but there are some names with which you need to be familiar, and some luminaries. Francis Schaeffer among them, you mentioned C.S. Lewis, and of course, you know, Norm Geisler, who was a friend and professor and mentor. Dr. Geisler once said to me, he said, Alex, from 1970 to 1980, Josh McDowell spoke in a thousand locations. And that was a game changer for raising awareness about apologetics.

And that's true, and we all know Josh and what an incredible friend and mentor and role model he is. That being said, here's a question. Did you guys realize, you're coming out of the late 60s, the sexual revolution, the drug revolution, it's the early 70s, did you guys realize, hey, we're sort of at a time of cultural change and the restatement of biblical worldview, and the defense of it, apologetics, very necessary. In those early 70s, did you realize the winds of change were upon you? One of the things that I noticed is Francis Schaeffer oftentimes in his books would talk about true truth.

And I want to set up Steve Cable for that because I thought, why is he doing that? And I realized what he was trying to explain is truth with a capital T didn't exist anymore. You had your view of truth, and I have my view of truth and a different view of truth. And in our survey, one of the things that Steve Cable found even 10 years ago was you have a very significant number of individuals who say they're Christians, but they don't believe in the idea of absolute truth. So we were seeing that in the 70s, and now watch how it's played itself out in more recent years. Stephen, let me ask you this. When things happen like Roe versus Wade, were there many Christian leaders at that moment who said, hey, wait a minute, the Declaration guarantees the right to life and removing legal protection for the unborn?

Not only is that unbiblical, it's unconstitutional. Was anybody saying that back then? Well certainly they were, and of course that was... we were all young then when that happened, but there was certainly a realization that the prayer in schools and the issue of the sanctity of life was a clear indicator that the culture was shifting. Now with that being said, I think as we moved into the late 70s, some of us were feeling, well, maybe we're coming back more normal after getting to the tumultuous 60s, right? Not realizing that as we moved into the 90s and into this century, we'd see a seismic shift that is at least as great as the 60s and early 70s.

To what do we attribute that seismic shift? Is there any one thing or are there several causes? I'm sure there are several causes, but certainly one of them is the benefit and the bane of the availability of communication and the internet, the media explosion, so that our young adults are constantly being bombarded with different ideas and a lot of narcissistic ideas about what about me, what about me, and how do people perceive me, and what's... it's about me. And I think that whole change in the world that you live in from a communication standpoint is one critical factor that's causing this in America. And the internet really feeds that, doesn't it?

Narcissism. I was trying to explain to my mom what the internet was. This is probably 25 years ago. My mother was a teacher for almost 30 years. Brilliant lady, she really was. And I said, Mom, it's like having the Library of Congress right in your house.

And it is, but while there are good things online, there's plenty of objectionable material too, isn't there? Let's hit the pause button, folks. You're listening to Truth for a New Generation with Kirby Anderson and Stephen Cable as our guest, talking about worldview and the future of our culture.

I know the year has been a hard one, one we don't like to forget. For the first time since the COVID shutdowns, it's the 2021 Truth for a New Generation National Apologetics Conference. Worldviews, the battles you must win, featuring Dr. Alex McFarland, Dr. Frank Turek, Sandy Rios, and E.W.

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Register at alexmcfarland.com. Christians don't necessarily agree with one another when it comes to questions of religious pluralism, homosexuality, the role of government, abortion, and war. Too often we manage these disagreements by ignoring them. Yet we're called to engage the world for the sake of Christ.

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You can find us on television, on a number of networks around the country, the NRB Television Network and more. And so, listen, when you watch the Facebook videos, rev alexmcfarland. R-E-V. And I want to thank you. I just saw that we've got like 571,000 Facebook followers and I thank you. And listen, like, share, all of those things.

Not, listen, I don't care that anybody knows my name, but I care that everybody knows the name of Jesus Christ. And so, thank you for participating in the things the Lord has called us to do. But, I have such a respect. Kirby, I want to thank you for what you do and I want to resume our conversation but you have, for all the time I've known you, personified not only gracious communication but impeccable scholarship. And I've never seen you waver everything you do. You do with excellence, you do with truth, and I think that's why God is blessing you so much.

Well, thank you so very much. And again, one of the reasons we try to provide that information, because we have the same kind of philosophy, we just want to give this information to individuals. You can go to probe.org and you're going to see all sorts of articles and commentaries, some very good analysis by Steve Cable of some of these surveys, as well as the transcripts of our radio programs, and all that's free. Except for the books, which of course the publishers charge us, that's the only thing we charge you for. So everything else is free and we have the same kind of philosophy. We want people to exalt Jesus and really understand the Bible and live out a godly life. Because, listen, John 8 says, the truth will set you free.

If the truth will set you free, conversely, that which is false will leave you in bondage. And I would say that's where our culture is rapidly going. I want to talk for the remainder of our time about sexual and moral beliefs. Our culture seems just doggedly insistent that there should not be sexual boundaries. And yet, everywhere we look, we see the incredibly high price that is exacted on us from sexual deviancy. So Steve, in the research you've done, and I know 18 to 55 year olds, very representative sample, where are we morally and sexually as a country right now?

Well as a country, as a whole, we are totally, anything is okay, and anything you can think of that's not okay will be okay in the next decade. When we look at the statistics across other beliefs besides born-again Christians, the belief that fornication is wrong or that sex with, living with someone before marriage or homosexuality or any of those, it's down to less than 10% of the population. The concerning thing for me is that among born-again Protestants, we see a similar trend. They're much less likely to do so than the population as a whole. But if we look at, for example, at living together before marriage in 2020, born-again Protestants under the age of 40, only 40% of them say that's not God's best plan for you. So that means that two-thirds of them say, sure, that's a good idea.

Try before you buy. We see similar things on other things. Pornography, it's a similar statistic, about 40% of them say, you know, stay away from pornography. The other 60% are born-again Protestants. No, it's fine.

If that's what you want, it's fine. Do you think part of it is, I'm talking among born-again Christians, in my Christian life, and I came to the Lord when I was 21, I've heard endless messages about God's grace. I've really not heard a lot of sermons about discipleship and stewardship. You know, 1 Corinthians 6, 19 and 20 says, we are not our own. We're bought with a price, therefore glorify God in your mortal bodies.

This is going to sound so rudimentary and so basic, but I believe truth, very often, truth is simple. Don't we need to talk to people about sin, repentance, sanctification? And look, regardless of any way the world tries to legitimize something, if I belong to the Lord, I don't do those things.

I am called to a life of sanctification. Don't we need to just tell our people that? I think if you believed and you knew that your people, that your congregation, were uniform in their belief that God had a standard for sexual activity and it was a standard within marriage, then you don't need to talk about that much.

But guess what? That's not what they believe. That's why we're collecting this data so we can share this with the Christian leadership and the pastors, say, this is something that you need to address. The Bible speaks clearly about it.

It's God's best. If we want to minister to our neighbors around us that have no clue, we don't conform to them. We conform to Jesus Christ, and then we can share him with our neighbors. Alex, just think about the situation that has happened over time. Since I'm the old guy around the table, I'll use me as an example, because when I first was teaching at Dallas Theological Seminary, we had issue classes that I would teach.

And I would notice the pronoun change. We would talk about divorce back in the early 80s, what do we do for those people outside the church? Soon, by the late 80s, what do we do about our people?

How can we address the issue? Premarital sex, a good statement like that. There was a time when you might have heard messages from the pulpit or from youth leaders about wait till marriage in the 70s and 80s. And of course, there were some people speaking out. We mentioned Josh McDowell and some others that were doing that, but over time, pastors said, you know, I better not talk about that anymore. They might have talked about living together, but then after a while, they realized there were maybe too many people in the congregation that were living together before marriage. You used to talk about homosexuality, but then when you had friends, neighbors, coworkers, maybe family members that identified as LGBTQ, we stopped talking about that. And you've seen, even in your younger life, I think this slide that has taken place, but I've seen it now over a much longer period, and it illustrates again why we need to come back to biblical principles, because unfortunately, too many people are taking their cue from the culture, and we're not supposed to be conformed to this world, we're supposed to be transformed by the renewing of our minds in Christ Jesus.

You know, a parent said to me, I understand what the Bible says, but Alex, when it's your son or daughter, you'll change. Now, I'm going to piggyback on that thought. Folks, this is Truth For A New Generation Radio. Stay tuned. More of this most recent survey about the religious views and practice of Americans here in the 21st century. Stay tuned.

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Speak to that. What do you say to the person who says, okay, when it's your son or daughter, you're going to change your tune, Alex. But no, we love people. We love people. We don't ostracize people. But we dare not budge on what Scripture says. How do you guys handle that kind of a mindset? And we certainly have seen this in some really tragic areas, like abortion, where people say I'm pro-life until all of a sudden somebody that I know or have in my family is pregnant and wants to get an abortion. And so this tendency is one that I think we're going to have to address from churches in the pulpit and in Sunday school classes and in small groups and all the rest and say, you know, if God's Word is true, then it's true even if your circumstances change. And yet, Alex, you've noticed as well as I do, individuals, very prominent, oftentimes Christian musicians, who begin to change their view because in many cases they meet somebody who's LGBTQ or they have a brother who changes it or something of that nature. And I think this is something we're going to have to address as the body of Christ, that either the Bible is true or it's only true until it affects you. And help people understand there's going to be a day coming where somewhere there's going to be a pressure on you from either the culture or your family to cause you to change your views. And we can maybe learn some lessons from the great saints in history who were willing to, in some cases, die martyrs' deaths because they believed in the Orthodox teaching of Scripture.

And today there are just too many forces trying to force people to compromise their belief. I think the key in dealing with someone close is to remember, well, how did Jesus deal with an adulterous woman? Did he ostracize her? Did he refuse to talk to her?

No, he talked to her. He talked to her in love, but he didn't say, keep on doing what you're doing because that's the best. He said, God has something better for you. Go and sin no more. Amen. Amen. You know, in John 10 35, Jesus said, the Scripture cannot be broken.

And that's really true. And I want to say very clearly, God is a God of love. And whatever you have done, he can forgive. Whatever has been done to you, he can heal. But we don't let our circumstances trump the written revelation of God, do we?

No. And again, back to some of the key issues that we're talking about here. We need to speak the truth in love. And if you really love an individual and they're engaged in an activity that is going to be harmful to them, most people would say that's the responsibility that you have.

We are looking out the window and there's a bridge, but if the bridge was out, you'd be the first person to say, don't go down that bridge because you'll end up on the water. But on the same kind of philosophy, we say, yeah, but we don't want to be judgmental. And so even though you're sexually involved, we really don't want to warn you about sexually transmitted diseases.

Even though you may be involved in a same-sex relationship, we don't want to warn you about some of the emotional and physical aspects of that as well. And so one of the biggest issues, again, I think, Alex, we're going to have to address in this 21st century is this doctrine of non-judgmentalism that says you cannot judge anyone. And I've seen Matthew 7.1 perverted, you have to. I mean, you've been a youth speaker, I've been a youth speaker. I can't think of a time I've been in a youth rally where having some kids come up afterwards and say, didn't Jesus judge not that you might not be judged?

And I always try to point out that I think they've wrenched that out of context. But this idea of not being judgmental, being tolerant, being willing to forgive before you see repentance is something I think we're just going to have to address in the church, because we're seeing more and more of that playing itself out, and it's doing great harm to a younger generation that's looking for some kind of mooring for their lives, and their mooring should be based on God's unchangeable Word. I'm on the road speaking and people will come up after a talk and they'll say, well, Alex, my son is an atheist and he's a good person. Or they'll say, I know we raised our kids in church, but now my son or daughter is gay, and I've got to believe God loves them as much as I do, or something like that.

Now, here's the thought that occurred to me. Look, I've got family members that I love that are not walking with the Lord right now, but here's the thing. If we put more stock in the worthiness or deservedness of a human being rather than the Word of God, is that some type of idolatry? I mean, you see what I'm saying? Because we know what the Word of God says, and yet we pull out these examples, but here's this exception. I would warn people, if you're putting more stock in the truth or facticity of your exhibit A rather than the written revelation of God, be careful.

I suspect that's an idol. And I think when you say that, you're also saying, oh, Jesus did not need to die. Why did He come die? Because my friend, my relative, doesn't need Him because I've decided they're good enough.

And I've decided I must be good enough, too. So why did Jesus do that silly thing of coming and laying down His life as the Son of God? That just doesn't make sense. Amen. We're not saying people can't do moral deeds. An atheist can do things that are moral and lawful. But we're saying that according to the Word of God, we're all sinners and we need salvation.

Yes. And again, I've probably done some debates. I know I have moderated debates and done debates as well. And you always get these atheists say, well, an atheist can be good without God. Well, I'm not denying that, but you're not good enough to achieve salvation by yourself. So I think we'll acknowledge that. Sometimes we meet people that are Christian and aren't all that nice of people, and we meet some atheists that are very nice people.

But that's not the issue. The issue is ultimately coming down to salvation. And the fact is, is if you want to talk about goodness based on God's criterion, then they have certainly fallen short, because all have fallen short and fallen short of the glory of God. Amen. And, you know, I often say I'm a saved sinner who's excited about Jesus. And one of the unique things about the Christian faith in reality, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer in the eyes of the Father.

We're a saint. And that's another subject for another day. But folks, I'm talking to Kirby Anderson, Steven Cable, their research, you need to read and learn. And where can they find all of this research and the survey results online?

www.probe.org. So again, there are going to be all sorts of different articles on theology, apologetics, science, government, all sorts of things. There will be lots of material for you to take and use, especially if you're in church leadership, you really want to be reading some of this. Steven Cable, Kirby Anderson, in the strongest possible terms, let me emphasize how I respect what you do. I appreciate it. I appreciate you both being on Truth For A New Generation. Thanks for listening today and join us again next time as we bring you more truth for a new generation on TNG radio. Thank you.