6/5/2021 - A Conversation with Kirby Winstead

TNG Radio, where today's culture and timeless truths come together.

It's reasoned relevant content apologetics, worldview, and answers to the questions that you need to know. From Alex McFarland Ministries, this is Truth for a New Generation Radio. And now the man who preached in 50 states in 50 days, speaker, writer, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland. In Matthew 16 18, Jesus said this, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Hi, Alex McFarland, you're listening to Truth for a New Generation Radio. And on today's program, we're going to talk about a problem that a lot of churches are facing.

They are plateaued or declining. You know, we've lived in an era where we've seen the Lord bless America in so many ways, and God has blessed this nation through the church. They estimate that right now there are some 345,000 churches in America. There are, according to the Barna Research Group, maybe as few as 60 million adult born-again Christians. Sometimes they say maybe as many as 100 million.

Only the Lord knows. Barna has a seven-question survey about what constitutes a Biblical worldview. And I've heard George Barna speak. I've heard other experts.

I've talked with Barna on the phone. And let's put it in the middle. Let's say there's something like 80 million born-again adults. And again, only God knows. But with 300,000 churches, 60 to 80, perhaps even 100 million adult born-again Christians, and well over a half million ordained ministers, not to mention all the blessings of a Bible in most hotel rooms, Christian radio stations. Charles Stanley and David Jeremiah are on television. We have lived in an America that has had great ministry resources, and yet the number of people that profess to be non-believers, agnostics, atheists, is rising dramatically. And so I want to talk with a friend in just a moment that you'll meet about what can churches do that are plateaued or declining.

Let's talk about leadership. Let's talk about evangelism. Let's talk about the Gospel that our nation so desperately needs.

I'm here at First Baptist Myrtle Beach with a dear friend. His name is Kirby Winstead. Kirby, I know you've been a pastor. You've been a director of missions. You've been a director of missions, a DOM. You've been a ministry strategist.

And a few other things I hope we get to talk about, sports-related. But you've given your life to the Great Commission. So I'm going to ask this question first of all. What is the Great Commission, and why should every believer, especially American Christians, why should we care about what the Bible calls our commission, the Great Commission? I'm going to relate that to what I do in the Guard. I'm a chaplain in the Guard here in South Carolina. The Great Commission is our standing orders. It is our orders, our marching orders.

It's what we do. I have standing orders as a chaplain. I can go into nursing homes and minister to veterans and do funerals and visit with people, all that kind of stuff.

The Great Commission is our standing order. To go, to love, to preach, to teach, to evangelize, and to mark those disciples. That means make them different. That's where the baptism comes in. But that's where the teaching comes in. That's so important.

You know, it's been my privilege to travel all 50 states. I love the church. And you look around, and clearly there was a time when people were being evangelized.

There are large buildings. Some of them have some age on them now. But why suddenly, maybe even in the last decade, have we suddenly seen the evangelization of the lost? We've hit a brick wall somehow or another. In your opinion, Kirby, why are we not seeing people saved like we once did in our nation?

There's a variety of reasons, Alex. But it boils down to the fact that our theology is not what it was. Our practice is not what it was. We've allowed certain things to take the priority over that. And I really believe one of the biggest issues is we are spending most of our energy on fruitless questions. We're debating things. And I'll just give you an example, like Calvinism. You know, our job is to go out and win the lost. The best explanation I've ever heard of this came from one of our heroes of the faith, W.A.

Crystal. When he was getting ready to preach on this subject, he said, predestination, foreordination, election, that's God's business. Whosoever will may come, go into all the world and preach the gospel, that's my business. And we've gotten away from that. You know, I agree.

And do you know what? I think about George Whitefield and John Wesley. This is back in colonial America. Wesley, if you've heard of Wesleyan theology, very much on free will. George Whitefield was a Calvinist. But yet Whitefield was an evangelist and preached. And in fact, one of the people he led to the Lord was Benjamin Franklin.

And Whitefield would be in Boston preaching to thousands of people. It's very interesting. The way that the National Guard measures people at the mall in Washington, they lay a grid and every square is a certain number of people. And they can pretty accurately estimate crowd size. Well, that was developed by Benjamin Franklin. Because Franklin would love to try to estimate how many people Whitefield was preaching to in Boston. But here's the thing. Here's Calvinist Whitefield, Arminian John Wesley. And they asked George Whitefield, they said, do you expect to see John Wesley in heaven? And he said, no, I don't. And they said, really? And George Whitefield said, no. Because Wesley will be so far up there close beside the throne, and I'll be so far back on the back row, far away.

I'm not even worthy. My point being, there was a collegial spirit of love between two different theologies because they agreed, let's tell the world about Jesus. That's what's missing, is the collegial atmosphere of love. Jesus said, by this shall all men know that you are my disciples if you have love one for another. And now we think our enemy is the guy that's in a different church down the street.

Our enemy is Satan, and we have forgotten that. Let me tell you a story about Whitefield. There's a marker not too far from this church in front of the Little River United Methodist Church in the little town of Little River on the north end of the Grand Strand. And it tells about Whitefield who came through here often on his preaching crusades.

Okay, Alex just grabbed his chest because you're on the radio and you can't see that. But Whitefield came through this area and he stopped at a tavern in Little River that was there in this part of the fishing village. And they were singing and dancing, and he went in and talked to a woman and he said, every step you take with your dancing makes the devil happier. But they actually stopped the singing and the dancing and they let Whitefield preach to the people in the tavern. And he led one young man to the Lord and baptized him that day and started that church. Whitefield was so passionate to win people to Jesus that he went into a tavern and preached the gospel. Oh, that we would have that kind of passion. You're listening to Truth For a New Generation with our very special guest, Rev.

Kirby Winstead. TNG radio is back after this. America today is like a patient struggling to live, yet is being forcibly euthanized by her, quote, doctors. The life force within the patient fighting for survival is the honest citizens like yourself.

The team of, quote, caregivers are the local and national leaders actually contributing to the demise of the patient. The economy is crashing. Crime is exploding. The Constitution is being abolished. The assault on America, how to defend our nation before it's too late by Alex McFarland has one single purpose to get you prepared. Learn the real source of America's current problems that no one else is talking about and what you can do now to face tomorrow, regardless of what tomorrow brings.

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Register online at thecove.org. Timeless Trues in a Soundbite Culture. Truth for a New Generation Radio.

Welcome back to the program. We're talking about the gospel in our culture, and I love in the book of Revelation. I believe it's Revelation chapter 14. It says that an angel flew across heaven proclaiming, quote, the everlasting gospel. I love Jude verse 3 that says we are to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. My point in sharing those verses, the everlasting gospel, the faith once delivered. See, the gospel doesn't change. God gave us a message that was relevant in every generation from the first century to the horse and buggy era to the 21st century.

The message of new life in Jesus is still relevant, and it always will be as long as history goes on. Alex McFarland here. We're talking with Kirby Winstead. Hey, Kirby, before the break you were mentioning, here on the Grand Strand in South Carolina, First Baptist Church and King's Highway, George Whitfield went through here. I had no idea that we were on such historic ground.

Yes, he is one of the many preachers that came through here. King's Highway is actually named in honor of the kings of England. It was one of the first highways that was laid out here in South Carolina.

George Washington traveled this way when he came through the South on his historic tour as president. You know, let's talk about history for a minute, because I personally believe the United States of America is a covenant nation built on biblical principles. Now, not a covenant nation in the sense of Israel, God called Abraham, Genesis 12, but we were built on biblical principles. I've been to many places around America where people prayed, and maybe a century ago, godly people prayed and the Lord did things. The promises of God, the prayers of the saints, the vows and commitments, they have a certain timelessness about them, don't they?

Yes, and we've gotten away from those things. I think there are three elements to really renewal in our churches. It has to start individually, not just corporately. I used to think that revival would start when people would begin to be saved and they would come on the fringes and the fringes would start expanding.

That's not right. Revival has to begin with the best we've got. It's got to start with the core people, and it has to start with some very basic elements. This is not a sermon that I've ever preached, but there are three basic things that you've got to do. The first one, and you've already mentioned this, is prayer. We don't pray anymore. We give it lip service, but we don't actually pray and spend time with God in prayer. We need to go back to reading people like Andrew Murray and Ian Bounds, and we need to read what they say about prayer. Andrew Murray has a composition of his books called On Prayer, and it's a number of his books, and it was put in one big paperback form, and I read it. It was revolutionary.

That and Henry Blackamy's work on experiencing God were the two great revolutionary things for me. But prayer, we need to pray. Spend time praying. I have so many people come up to me and they say, I want you to pray for my loved one that's lost.

And I look at them often and say, I'll be glad to pray with you, but when was the last time you spent all night praying for somebody, for that loved one? Prayer. The second one is surrender. Surrender is a really good word. It's like laying down your arms in battle, and you've got to give in unconditionally. That's what surrender is, and you surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit. And the third thing is obedience. Don't just hear what he tells you to do.

Get up and do it. Was it Evan Roberts, the Scottish minister, who cried out to God, oh God, give me Scotland or I die? I mean, there was a desperation for a plateaued or declining church that needs to turn around, for a nation that is prodigal and sin-sick like our own.

I mean, don't we have to get before God, pray, intercede, and really cry out with desperation? Yes, exactly right. You mentioned Evan Roberts. Vance Havner used to tell about the revival that he walked in to preach.

Havner was one of my heroes. He said Evan Roberts showed up at a meeting and said to the great congregation there, do you believe God is here? They said yes. He said, do you believe that if you surrender to God, he'll do everything you need him to do?

Yes. And then he said to the congregation, you don't need me. And he put on his coat and left. And it was a dramatic representation that it's all about God doing it, not us. I was in a place called Enfield, Connecticut, E-N-F-I-E-L-D. And in 1748, a pastor in that area was named Jonathan Edwards. And there's a church, Enfield Congregational Church. Angie and I went to it. We sought it out. We found it.

And there was a little granite marker. And it was there that for the first time, Edwards preached a sermon. Many people studied it in school probably, a sermon called Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. And the Lord used that mightily. And they said that people were clinging to the pews for dear life. And they said that sometimes men would call out, hurry up, tell us how to get saved, we believe you. But what a lot of people don't know, Edwards had spent months in prayer.

He would get in a closet and he had written in a diary that it broke his heart. He felt like three out of four of his parishioners were unsaved. And he had spent months praying, praying, praying, really asking for the Holy Spirit to cultivate the soil. And listen, I know God in a blink. Almighty God can send a revival. God can change this nation. But we've got to want it. I'm going to make a comment.

And Kirby, I want your response. Philip Yancey, who years ago was with Christianity Today, he was talking about revival. You know, 125 years ago Methodist missionaries began to cultivate the soil in China. Now we've seen a lot of fruit here in the last 20 years, but 100 years ago there were missionaries going to China. Some of the students that died at Tiananmen Square were led to the Lord by Methodist missionaries. Philip Yancey said God goes where he's wanted.

I'm afraid here in prodigal America, I mean God would come if we wanted him, but we've just not prayed and shown him yet how desperately we want him. The Old Testament says in a verse, Jacob hath settled on his lees, L-E-E-S, and has not been shaken from vessel to vessel. That vision there, that reference is to a wine bottle that has been settled for a long time and has developed a scum on the top. And the reason it's developed that scum is because it hasn't been shaken. And Alex, I'm afraid that what it's going to take to shake, to awaken the church, to awaken the church is something to happen to shake us to our very core and get that scum off the top.

Hey, stay tuned folks. We're going to continue talking with Reverend Kirby Winstead here on Truth For A New Generation, some exciting stuff about plateaued or declining Christianity and how God might work through us to help turn things around. Christians don't necessarily agree with one another when it comes to questions of religious pluralism, homosexuality, the role of government, abortion, and war.

Too often we manage these disagreements by ignoring them. Yet we're called to engage the world for the sake of Christ. How can we be effective if we avoid society's most pressing questions in 10 issues that divide Christians? Alex McFarland challenges us to drill down to the biblical core of 10 current issues, such as social justice, evil and suffering, pornography and environmentalism. As he echoes the biblical invitation, come let us reason together only by engaging the scriptures deeply, thinking clearly and speaking truthfully can we in God's family address our differences and discover the peace that comes with unity of purpose. 10 issues that divide Christians.

Find this book and many others at alexmcfarland.com. Are you tired of liberal agendas ruining our country, but you don't know what to do about it? That's why Truth and Liberty Coalition was founded. We want to equip you to take back our country and impact the world. Here's how we do it. We educate through broadcasts, conferences, and our website with resources that inform, equip, and motivate. We unify by collaborating with like-minded organizations like the Family Research Council, the Family Policy Alliance, and My Faith Votes. We mobilize by providing practical tools you can use to impact your local community.

As Christians, we are called to make disciples of nations. Together, we can change the course of our country for good. Join Truth and Liberty to connect with believers and organizations who not only want to see a change in our nation, but a community that is actually doing something about it. Join us online for our broadcast and subscribe for relevant updates on our website, truthandliberty.net. In the midst of a culture obsessed with relativism, Alex McFarland is a voice you can trust to speak the timeless truths of Christianity in a timely way. You're listening to Truth for a New Generation Radio. Welcome back to the program, folks.

Alex McFarland here talking with a very special friend, and I want to resume my conversation with Kirby Winstead in just a moment. I do want to remind you that we're going to have one of our Truth for a New Generation apologetics conferences at First Baptist Myrtle Beach, October 15-17. Of course, I'll be here with Frank Turek, renowned apologist, award-winning journalist Sandy Rios from American Family Radio, and much more. You can go to my website, which is alexmcfarland.com. Now listen, Myrtle Beach is America's beach.

There are plenty of hotel rooms, and we've got registration information up on the website. So you want to be here. And the theme for the TNG conference, the fall 2021, our first post-COVID TNG event, is going to be this, world views, the battles we must win. Because friends, listen, there's militant secularism among the under-30 crowd, rising atheism, there's moral relativism, and it wasn't enough abortion on demand, no legal protection for the unborn, the redefinition of marriage and the Obergefell decision of 2015, now transgenderism. And to say that a man can't give birth and a woman is a woman, that's hate speech now. We're talking about eliminating police departments, defunding the police.

We're digressing into a culture of lawlessness. Now let me say, Christianity is the truth. The Bible is the Word of God. Plus, the church has prayer. And there's the Holy Spirit.

Friend, do not think that America is going to die, although we could, when we've got this residue of God's people. We've got the powerful, life-changing gospel of the risen Lord Jesus. We have the Spirit of God.

So you can be equipped to make a difference. You need to come to Truth for a New Generation, First Baptist Church, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, October 15-17. Look, Myrtle Beach is great. It's one of this nation's most desired destination points. You've got every reason to join us.

No reason not to come. Go to AlexMcFarland.com and let's join together in prayer with people from across America Fall of 2021. And let's begin to see God save this nation. Kirby, I want to talk about, you mentioned in the other segment, I just smiled.

Vance Havner. I had a very godly grandmother. One month after I accepted Christ, she went to be with the Lord. She had prayed for me. And she said, there's a box of books, a box of books. Well, after she died, we were going through my grandmother's effects.

And she had left. She wanted me to have them, a box of books. Now there was a book or two by a guy named John R. Rice. There was a couple of books by Billy Graham. There were half a dozen books by a man named Vance Havner. And I didn't read those books. I devoured those books.

Now you and I are smiling. When I mention names like W. A. Criswell, Vance Havner, you mention Andrew Murray. We've talked about D. L. Moody. Why do those names mean a lot? What did those men of God have that 100 years later we're still talking about? I don't know that it was what those men had. It was who had them. You know, they were controlled by God. And they sought him on a daily basis and even an hourly basis. Their prayer life was different.

Their devotional life was different. We think that we can just have a Sunday thing with God and we're okay. Or we think we can have just 5 minutes or 10 minutes or 30 minutes with him in the morning and we're okay. But that's not what it's all about. The apostle Paul said pray without ceasing.

That doesn't mean you walk around all the time with your eyes closed, of course. But it means that you keep the channels of communication open and you can hear him. I've had the privilege of having a number of guys surrender to the ministry under my ministry. And I've talked with them and I've said listen guys.

And I tell young guys this all the time. I've trained chaplains in the guard. I've trained chaplains for hospice work and healthcare chaplaincy. And I've told them that if you will just listen to God and listen to his still, small voice, listen for it, intentionally listen for it and obey what he tells you to do, you'll do more work and ministry by accident than most guys do on purpose. For the church that is graying, you know, Christian magazine a few years ago talked about the graying of the evangelical world, as in gray hair. A church that has not seen people saved and the youth group is small if not non-existent.

What do you say? What advice do you have for the plateaued or declining church, Kirby? Be intentional. Say I'm going to do something to change. But most churches don't want to change, Alex.

And I'm not talking about going to contemporary music or anything like that because anybody that knows Kirby Winston knows I'm an old school guy when it comes to worship. But I'm talking about being intentional and reaching people, bringing staff that have a burden and developing a burden within yourself to reach people. Let it become an all-consuming passion to reach people with the gospel and see souls saved. I heard a quote, you may recall, who said this, said, we are a harvest-minded church in an unceded generation.

Yes. What does that mean? It means that we've got to start understanding that we are going to have to have the long view in mind and we're going to have to reach people with the gospel and sow seeds.

The best way you sow seeds is by showing them Jesus in your life. Live it in front of them. Let them look at you and say, you've got something different. There's something different about you. And I go into some places here in this town where people look at me and they know when I walk through the door there's something different. And they talk to me about that. And they confront me about that. And I have an opportunity to reach them with the gospel. I've led people to Jesus tailgating at football games that had a beer in their hand.

Okay? Don't be intimidated by people. Love people. See them the way that Jesus saw them. Folks, we've been talking with Reverend Kirby Winston, a friend and colleague here at First Baptist Myrtle Beach.

I want to encourage you to pray but I want to encourage you to equip yourself. We've thrown out a lot of names but one of the books that absolutely changed my life was by a man named Robert Coleman. It was called The Master Plan of Evangelism. Incredible book. The Billy Graham Ministry has promoted that book for years and years and years. I think about the book by Bill Bright, Witnessing Without Fear. I think about Billy Graham's book, Peace with God. And of course, just your Bible.

But if you will read books like this, you'll get equipped. I'm the least likely guy you would ever think would be a soul winner, an evangelist, a minister. I was such an introvert, so shy I could never talk to anybody. But I wanted people to be saved. I wanted to tell people about Jesus.

And I began to read books. But friend, you can make a difference. God has called you to make a difference. God will equip you to make a difference.

And remember 1 Corinthians 15, 58, that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. TNG radio is made possible by the friends of Alex McFarland Ministries, P.O. Box 10231, Greensboro, North Carolina 27404. That's P.O. Box 10231, Greensboro, North Carolina 27404. Call us at 877-Yes-God-1.

That's 877-Yes-God and the number 1. Or give online at AlexMcFarland.com. While you're there, listen to Program Archives, read Alex's blog, invite Alex to speak at your event, or contact Alex with a question or comment. AlexMcFarland.com. Thanks for listening today and join us again next time as we bring you more truth for a new generation on TNG Radio.