How Should The Church Respond To Secularism’s “God”?

Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith.

Empty cathedrals echo with nothingness. The God who once infused them with light has been replaced by vapid self-absorption. What should the remaining church do, or is it too late to stem the tide? Today, another hard-hitting interview with the Pastor Emeritus of Moody Church on his book, The Eclipse of God, Our Nation's Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity. From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. Now, here is Pastor Lutzer, along with Pastor Larry McCarthy. Hi, this is Pastor Lutzer.

Welcome to a very special broadcast of Running to Win. Today I have in the studio a friend of mine, a pastor here at the Moody Church. His name is Larry McCarthy, and Larry has compassion ministries as part of his responsibility, but of course his responsibilities even go beyond that to witnessing to the city and being involved in many different ways. But we're gathering together today to discuss my new book entitled The Eclipse of God, and I've written this book to help us to understand how desperately we need to get back to God as he's revealed in the scriptures and not the God that we would prefer. Larry, welcome to the program. Good to see you, Pastor Lutzer.

I'm going to jump right in. This is chapter 3. Tell me about this title. I'm going to read it for our listeners. God is given a respectful burial but he is in attendance. In your subtitle, How the Cathedrals of Europe Became the Tombs of God, you've got to tell me about your intent here. Where were you? All right.

Thank you so much. What we must understand is that Nietzsche, to whom I referred last time, he died in the year 1900, but he proclaimed the death of God. And he says, God, regarding God, we have killed him, but who will wipe the blood from our hands? And then he said this, the cathedrals of Europe have become the tombs of God.

I'll explain a little bit more in just a bit. But here's Nietzsche. He feels that he has to declare to the world that God has died. And he seems to do so reluctantly.

It's something like a teenager who has awakened in the middle of the night and told that his parents have died and now he's on his own. So Nietzsche said, without God, what we must do is to stare into the abyss and we must recognize that the abyss stares back at us, but it's all on us. There's no God to console us.

There's no God to direct us. And he faced atheism head on. And he understood its implications a lot better than a lot of contemporary atheists do. But I want to spend just a moment longer on Nietzsche. Nature was very important to him.

So there is a philosopher by the name of Stephen Hicks who really helped me understand Nietzsche. Let's suppose, for example, you have nature because it's important. You interview a sheep and ask the sheep, what's important to you? Well, it's grazing on a hillside with others just like me on a beautiful, sunny afternoon. Interview a wolf.

What is good for you? It's taking a sheep for sure. It's taking a sheep and tearing it to shreds and guzzling it down.

All right. So Larry, how would you like to have a peace conference between wolves and sheep and see whether or not there's any common ground between the two? You level these indictments, Pastor, against Nietzsche that he's putting out these calls and echoes. Where was the church? Was he a singular voice? There were churches.

Where was the church? Well, I'm going to answer that, but I'm not quite finished with Nietzsche. Ah.

Ah, yeah. So what Nietzsche said is he cursed Christianity because Christianity, well, it's making us appear like sheep when the wolves run the world. So Nietzsche said, the meek shall inherit the earth.

Give me a break. When have the meek inherited anything? Humility. How far will humility get you?

Nowhere. So he said, we need an übermensch. That's the German word for superman. A superman who's going to rule, and as I think I already hinted last time, that's why Hitler kept a copy of Nietzsche next to his bed and gave a copy of all of Nietzsche's writing to Mussolini for his 50th birthday. Hitler asked the question, why cannot we, in effect, be the wolves in a world of sheep?

In fact, to quote Hitler more accurately, he said, why cannot we be as cruel as nature? Now, you'll notice the chapter title that you just read about there being a funeral for God. Nietzsche, in one of his books, has a man running into cathedrals, singing a requiem to God, saying goodbye to God. You want to give him a respectful burial, right? And he's the one who predicted that the cathedrals of Europe would become the tombs of God.

So go to Europe today. You know, many of the cathedrals are, you know, libraries and mosques and the cathedral in England where John Bunyan attended is a night club. What Nietzsche predicted came to pass. Now, somebody's out there asking, Pastor Lutzer, why are you going into all this? I want people to understand the darkness and where it came from, although darkness exists in every human heart, but the influence of these philosophers. And now, Larry, to your question, where was the church?

By the way, I have to add a footnote. Of course, I say that God was in attendance at his funeral. Psalm 2, you know, the heathen, they rage against God.

They want to break his bands asunder. He who sits in the heavens laughs. Yes, amen. So God was in attendance at the funeral.

At the funeral. Yep. Three lessons. All right, now. You identify three lessons. I identify three lessons, but before I get to those three lessons, you're ahead of me, Larry. Am I? I want to emphasize, where was the church?

The church had been weakened because of liberal theology. I'm thinking of a man, for example, of, like, Friedrich Schleiermacher. What do you think, Larry? I would think that that's German, wouldn't you?

Yeah, I think so. All right. Schleiermacher was a liberal theologian, and he wrote that the doctrines are not important. I want everyone to listen to this, because we'll see how it seeped into our culture, and we're going to be getting to that in a few moments.

Would you so far? What he said was, religion is a feeling of absolute dependence, okay? So one person said, that means that my dog is very religious, because if you have a dog, you know that they are very dependent.

Now, here's the point. Instead of emphasizing doctrine, you can then be religious if you have the right feeling. And therefore, the church was weakened. It was hollowed out. The gospel was lost.

It was hollowed out, and secularism, the secularism of the church, was not able to withstand the hammer blows of these philosophies. So this is very critical. By the way, Larry, you asked about three lessons.

I have to get to those very quickly, because time is getting past us, and we have another chapter to cover. So we have our work cut out for us, so to speak. When you talk about the feelings, so feelings aren't fact.

That's right. And yet we're living in a day and age when feelings are believed to be facts. And you and I are going to be discussing in one of the future programs that whole concept. But very quickly, had you heard of Operation Grief?

I know that you read the manuscript. It was Hitler's brilliant idea. You take the uniforms of allied soldiers that you have captured, put them on Germans. Then Germans can go into the allied camps and sow discord, give wrong messages.

It didn't work well, because these Germans, even though they spoke English, often spoke with an accent. But think of this. This is what false prophets do. They wear the uniform of Christianity, but they're actually on the side of the enemy. And the church in Europe did not, was not able to withstand secularism. I wish that I had more time to tell you about other stories that relate to this. I want to ask you this, though, because I have to. Is this level of deception, you think it's present currently? Or are you giving us a historical perspective?

I am giving you a historical perspective. But this level of deception is happening today. Now. Now, if you and I get off on this rabbit trail, we might not get through the next, the next chapter. But you asked me for three lessons. Yes, sir.

I want to share my heart with you, Larry, and with everyone who is listening. When I look at history, when I look at what happened in Europe, number one, we cannot take the existence of our churches for granted. The fact is that Marxism has stamped out the church in places.

I've been to Albania, where the church almost didn't exist. There were little pockets of believers. So if we think, and I give a different interpretation of Jesus' words upon this rock, I will build my church, which I don't have time to go into here, but it's not a guarantee that our churches are going to continue.

We have to be very watchful. Second lesson, sometimes change happens very quickly, sometimes change happens slowly. You think, for example, that many of the churches in Europe did not necessarily go along with Schleiermacher.

Okay. And there are, have always been, exceptions that held to the evangelical faith. But the point is this, you look at some of the denominations in the United States, inch by inch, they have given up the gospel.

First it was one thing, then it was another, then it was another. And we need to be very careful, because that weakens the church. And then there's a third lesson, and this is hard for me to say, but it's true. History has proven that good men, men who believe the gospel, often succumb into silence and retreat because of cultural pressures or pressures that are placed upon them. These are warnings that you and I desperately need to heed for the American church.

Sobering thoughts there with those three lessons. We can't assume that the church is going to be here, is what I heard you say. Yeah. It's a sobering thought, Pastor. And you know, you think, for example, of things that are happening in our culture, and I don't want to over-exaggerate the darkness that we are up against, because you and I are going to be having a discussion regarding law.

Yes. And, you know, you have been an attorney before you were hired here at the Moody Church, so we're going to have a lot of fun talking about law and how it has to be based on that which is transcendent. But, Larry, we have to take care very quickly of another chapter. Well, I know you have so much to say in chapter three, and we've just kind of touched the surface here, so when people get the book, they'll be able to dive in a little more in depth. But chapter four, it reminded me of a song. The title, Nearer My God to Me, Worshipping at the Shrine of Self-Made Deities. Okay. You know, this was actually based on an article that appeared in The Economist a couple of years ago.

It's an online version. The article was, Nearer My God to Me. God is becoming more like us.

He is as liberal as we are. Nobody believes in this mighty almighty of the Old Testament, and that's what we're going to pick up next time, by the way. But nobody believes in this mighty almighty of the Old Testament. So what we have to do is recognize that, in fact, can you believe this?

The article says this. You know how the Lord's Prayer says, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? It switches it. Thy will be done in heaven as it is done on earth. We create a brand new image of God in accordance with what we desire.

So what I do is I show here the continuity. There you have Schleiermacher, you know, religion being a feeling of dependence. And here's where I talk about modern spirituality. Nietzsche for Americans. Nietzsche for Americans, that's what I call it, because people today don't want to say that they are atheists. It's just that they want to live as if they are atheists.

You've got to explain this, though, to our listeners. Modern spirituality, that can't be bad. I mean, it's spiritual.

Yes, it's spiritual, but it's cut off from biblical doctrine. You know, Larry, since you asked that question, before this book was published, I had a number of people read it. And one of the readers said this. He said, In a single short paragraph, this is the most important paragraph in this chapter. So I'm going to read it.

It's only about three or four sentences. We could describe it this way. If I want to improve my unholy life, I begin by believing in a God who tolerates unholiness without rebuking me. I am willing to be helped, but not transformed. I want a God who helps me manage my confusion and emptiness without making me repent of my sin. So that's the God. That's Nietzsche for Americans.

We can kind of cherry pick what we want. A lot of grace, plenty of blessings, holy obedience. And I don't have to believe anything definite. Now, in this chapter, and we're actually in chapter four, I talk about the book Conversations with God. And I speak about this in some detail because I read the book and I experience talking to people who have read the book.

Basically, what it is saying is this. God is whatever you want him to be. You ask, God, what is your will for my life? It's what you want your will to be. God turns out to be your self-consciousness.

Now, Larry, to everyone who's out there listening, let me say this. If you believe in a God who lets you do whatever you want to do, you are believing in a false God and you can look into the mirror. And when you do that, you see who is God, namely, you. I'm going to ask you, that's so attractive to the world, though.

That spirituality is so attractive. But you mentioned in your book that you learned an important lesson when you were out on the golf course. I want you to share that with the listeners. All right, I'll tell the story. We've got to make time for that.

We've got to make time for that, for sure. I played golf only once in my life. Some of my friends urged me to. I got the highest score. I was told that I lost the game.

I said, this game isn't for me. I think it took me six strokes to get a hole in one. So there was a lesson, though, that I learned. There was a pond and I saw a duck get up and sort of fly away, pretending its wing was broken. As a farm boy, I recognized right away that this duck had a nest there.

So I looked in the nest and in that nest was a lone golf ball. Now Larry, positive thinking definitely has its benefits. You know, the little train that said I think I can, I think I can, I think I can, the little optimistic train, it probably had an advantage.

But if when you get to the top of the hill, the tracks are washed out, it doesn't matter how optimistic you are. And the point that I'm making here is that contemporary spirituality, no matter how positive you think, no matter how much you believe in your own human potential, and you can just be whoever you want to be, and that you have within you all the resources that you need, you're really sitting on a golf ball. I've often thought of that mother duck. You know, she was thinking, oh boy, eventually I'm going to have a little duckling here. But since she was not sitting on a fertilized egg, it didn't matter. And I shout to people out there today, Larry, from the bottom of my heart, it is so important for you to realize that we do not have within ourselves the ability to come to God apart from his grace and the objectivity of truth.

Let me put it very quickly. Think of somebody who says, I'm spiritual, but I don't believe any doctrines, or I believe few doctrines. What they are saying is, I can come to my God without a sacrifice. I can come without a mediator. I can come just as I am because my God is my self-consciousness, and I don't have to believe anything specific. It's so attractive.

So attractive, but you know what? It is no answer to the problem of guilt. All that you can do is to forgive yourself. There is no God out there to help you forgive and to accept. And so we are being deceived by modern spirituality.

As I say in the book, it's Nietzsche for Americans. Now, I want to ask all those of you who are listening, would you do this? Would you get on the phone and call some of your friends and invite them to listen to next time as I dialogue with Larry? Because we are going to be discussing the God of the Old Testament, his relationship to the new. We're going to be talking about the killing of the Canaanites and a lot of other issues in the Old Testament and then asking the question, how do we harmonize that with the New Testament, which seems to be filled with love and grace? I want to let you know something. In our next program, I'm going to be pouring out my heart to you and giving one of the strongest invitations to believe on Christ that I have ever given.

Now, if you know somebody who isn't exactly sure of their salvation or they think that they can put off believing on Christ, ask them to listen next time. Of course, we're making the book available to you. It's entitled The Eclipse of God, our nation's disastrous search for a more inclusive deity.

Here's what you do. Go to rtwoffer.com or pick up the phone and call us at 1-888-218-9337. As we continue the ministry of running to win, my heart is so filled with gratitude to God for all that he has done. From my heart to yours today, I give God all the glory, but I give thanks to you because you have helped us in the expansion of this ministry that goes around the world. Right now, connect with us. Go to rtwoffer.com or if you prefer, pick up the phone and call us at 1-888-218-9337.

That's 1-888-218-9337. Thanks in advance for helping us, because together we're making a difference as we proclaim the gospel to all who will listen. Pastor Erwin Lutzer, along with Pastor Larry McCarthy, with the second of five interviews on Erwin Lutzer's book, The Eclipse of God, our nation's disastrous search for a more inclusive deity.

Now, a preview of what's ahead next time on Running to Win. Should we still be worshipping the smitey almighty of the Old Testament, coming to grips with the violent God of Moses and the prophets? People interpret the grace and the apparent leniency of God as a tolerance of good. Huge mistake.

But we have to remember that only once did God punish a truly innocent person, and that was when Jesus died on the cross. This is the last week we can make The Eclipse of God book available. It's our thank you for your gift of any amount to support Running to Win. Call us at 1-888-218-9337. That's 1-888-218-9337. Online, go to rtwoffer.com. That's rtwoffer.com. Your right to Running to Win, Moody Church, 1635 N. LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, IL 60614. For Pastor Erwin Lutzer, this is Dave McAllister. Running to Win is sponsored by the Moody Church.