This Faith and Finance podcast is underwritten in part by The Good Investor, a book by Robin John. This Faith and Work memoir hopes to inspire readers to view their work and investments as opportunities to honor God and bring blessing to the world. You can learn more now at goodinvestor.com. That's goodinvestor.com. Jesus taught that the true measure of our giving isn't the size of the gift, but the heart behind it.
Hi, I'm Rob West. Generosity starts long before anything leaves our hands. It begins with what we treasure most. Today, Pierce Taylor Hibbs joins us to explore the motives that shape our giving and why God cares so deeply about them. And then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.
That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith in Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions. Our guest today is Pierce Taylor Hibbs, author of more than 20 books on Christian living, including The Book of Giving: How the God Who Gives Can Make Us Givers. Pierce, great to have you with us today.
Well, thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Pierce, you have an incredible gift for taking deep theological truths and bringing them down into the rhythms of everyday life. And I love this article you did for us on giving in the latest issue of Faithful Stewart. It was titled Motive is Everything.
And you open with this striking line: you say, There's always some sun around which the planets of our lives turn. Boy, that's really just insightful. I'd love for you to unpack that a bit for us. That phrase, that image, is given by one of my favorite theologians or counselors, David Pallison.
So, if anyone has not read or listened to David Palison, who's now gone to be with the Lord, I encourage you to do that. He used this image in one of his lectures and basically meant That There's always something that we're worshiping. Our hearts are always pulled towards something, just like a planet is pulled toward the sun. And that's not a problem, in fact, because God has made us to worship, yes, but. There are sorts, all sorts of other things in our lives that will try to pull our attention.
And the biblical language for that sort of thing is idolatry. You know, that can be money, it can be power, it can be all kinds of negative influences in our lives. And when those things become the things that we say, I have to have this. in order to be content or happy. then that's at that point that that that thing has become A sun around which the lives of our planets is turning.
You know, everything is moving towards that. And so I found that that quote from David Pallison is very helpful in. getting me to think more deeply. about What am I thinking about all the time? What am I excited about?
What am I passionate about? What do I want to do, for example, with the money that I have? Yeah. What's worth spending my money on? Those are all questions that really get a sense of the gravity.
You know, what's your heart orbiting around right now? Yeah. And to your point, I mean, it ultimately is about worship and it can be idol worship if we're worshiping something other than the Lord. You know, we're to worship the Creator and often we can worship the creation. And I know Tim Keller talked a lot about this, where I believe he even said money is the most common of the counterfeit gods.
Do you believe that to be true? I think it's one of them, yes. I think that Vern Poethras, in discussing the book of Revelation, talked about the two. kind of primary or or most powerful idols being um Pleasure and power. And I think that money is almost an odd overlap of those two.
You know, people want money in certain ways, want to use it for the power that it gives them, but it's also a source of pleasure. And so if you combine both of those idols, Pleasure and power. uh draw for many people. That's well said. You know, talking about this article you've written for Faithful Steward, you really unpack this beautiful story of really one of the most famous givers in God's Word.
We don't know her name, but we know she was a widow, that Jesus celebrated her gift. Set up that article for us, just so listeners understand where you're going with that.
Well, the story in Mark 12. is A fascinating and beautiful story because it really does uncover what's beneath. the giving that's taking place. Uh which is really the heart of this widow. And so many people read the story.
And if you imagine yourself in this setting, there are lots of things you can observe. But you can't observe the heart of this woman unless you're Jesus. And that's what Jesus does in this story. He observes her heart and shows it to his disciples.
Well, that's why motives matter. It's the heart behind generosity that we're exploring today with Pierce Taylor Hibbs. We're just scratching the surface. A lot more to come just around the corner. This is Faith and Finance.
I'm Rob West. Don't go anywhere. We're just getting started. We'll be right back after this break. If you love what you hear on this program, there's even more waiting for you at FaithFi.com.
Explore podcasts, videos, articles, Bible studies, and devotionals, all designed to help you see God as your ultimate treasure and money as a tool to advance his kingdom. Pursue wisdom, practice generosity, and steward God's resources in a community with others who share your faith. Visit FaithFi.com to take the next step in your faith and financial journey today. That's faithfi.com. Faith in Finance is thankful for support from The Good Investor, a book by Robin John.
In his book, Robin shares his journey from an immigrant child struggling in school to co-founder and CEO of Eventide Asset Management, a faith-based investment firm. This Faith and Work memoir seeks to inspire readers to view their work and investments as opportunities to honor God and bring blessing to the world. More information is available at goodinvestor.com. That's goodinvestor.com. Um Yeah.
Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. With me today, my guest, Pierce Taylor Hibbs. He's senior writer at Westminster Theological Seminary and the author of more than 20 books. He's also written an article in our most recent edition of our magazine, Faithful Stewart, called Motive is Everything. And we're looking at the heart behind generosity.
And this really centers on the widow that we read about in Mark 12, where we don't know her motivation, to Pierce's point, but Jesus did, and he celebrated that. And Pierce, you connect this idea to the biblical concept of the heart, Labob, in scripture. Why is the heart so central to understanding generosity? That's a great question. I think the whole Bible really is about the human heart.
Because the heart is the deepest part of us and it governs all that we do. There was a Dutch theologian named Hermann Bauvink that said that. The heart is the source of all of our rational or volitional life. All he meant by that was. The heart is the source of all that we think and all that we want.
And so, all these things that come out of our lives, whether they're good things or bad things, ultimately have roots in the heart. Yeah. And so When we look at that as the source, the heart as the source, then that means that our actions. Such as the actions of this widow in Jesus' life before his disciples. our actions are actually only kind of the tip of an iceberg.
And way down deep underneath that. It's a motive, right? It's the reason why we do what we do. And Jesus is very attentive to the motive. Of your heart.
And that's one of the beauties of this story. He says in Luke's Gospel, for example, that. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, the evil person out of the evil treasure produces evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
So, Jesus is very clear that the heart is the source of all the things that you say, do, and think. And that means if your heart is not in the right place, you could be externally doing what looks to be right. And yet you're not worshiping God. You're not loving God. And that's a really big teaching point for Jesus when.
He's showing his disciples this widow that puts you know, two copper coins in the coffer. Yeah, no doubt. Let's unpack that a bit further because you touched on what Jesus said around treasure, and he often uses this image of treasure, our hearts functioning like chests filled with what we value most. How does that picture help to shape the way we think about our giving? A few different things, I think, maybe three, if I could list them that way.
I think, first of all, It means that Um A lot of people assume that giving, whether it's their time, their talents or their financial assets, is about allocating resources. It's moving things around. And in that sense, giving is a little bit detached from who we are. But the first thing I would say is that that's not true. Our giving is actually reflective.
of our spiritual condition. And so how you give reflects the health of your soul.
So that's the first thing. The second thing would be that This expands what our view of giving is.
So, giving is not just financial, and keeping it in that kind of category can keep us from growing in all these sorts of other areas of life.
So, the poor widow gave two mites, two small coins. But she didn't just give money when she did that. She also was living a normal life just like you and I. And all throughout that day, she gave herself in countless other ways, maybe in acts of kindness, maybe in parenting, maybe in carrying out household chores. And so the point here is Giving is not just something we do with our resources.
It's something that we're doing all the time. We just don't tend to put that category on it. The third thing that I would say is. Jesus, by giving us this image of the treasure chest, reinforces the truth that good fruit. flows from good treasure.
And so, giving ourselves to others is really not an external behavior. We may see other people around us, you know, giving themselves, giving their treasures, and their time, and their talent. But we don't know why they're doing it. And Jesus says that's really important. We need to know why we're doing what we're doing.
The reason why you're doing what you're doing matters. And Jesus says that your good fruit, you know, the good actions that you take. Really need to flow from a God-centered heart. They need to flow from a heart that is worshiping God. not just from a sense of Uh you know, obligation.
Yeah, and you really challenge readers in the article to ask that question: why am I doing what I'm doing? Why do you think that's so essential? What does that uncover? I think if I can go back to David Pallison's writing a little bit, I have a book that I've edited by him coming out soon called Dissecting the Heart.
So it gets into all of this, but Here's what he says. Just a short synopsis. He says, The human heart. The answer to why we do what we do must be understood as an active verb with respect to God. And the first time I read that, I thought, well, what does that mean?
And he said, well, you're always choosing. You're always loving God or loving something else. You're always fearing God or fearing something else. You're always needing God or needing something else. We're always active.
And so sometimes we can fall into this. Illusion of thinking that we're just kind of static. You know, we don't want one thing or want another, we're just kind of in the neutral zone. And that teaching, I think, shows that no, your heart is always chasing something. Yes.
It's either chasing God or it's chasing something else, but there's no middle ground, there's no neutral territory. And so that has been helpful for me in understanding that I can ask myself at any given moment. What am I seeking most right now? What is my heart chasing after? And what should it be chasing after, of course?
Why is my motive off? We can kind of do what the psalmist does when. He questions his own heart and says, You know, why are you in turmoil within me? We can actually do that for ourselves. When we notice that, hey, my motive here.
for doing what I'm doing. is not worshipful. You know, it's not centered on God. And it's true that. Oftentimes our motives are selfish.
And frankly, if I waited for my motives to be pure, I might not get much done. Because I'm often struggling with sinful motives.
So I praise God that He is willing to use me even when my motives are impure. And yet, that doesn't give me a license to say, well, I don't need to check my motives. His spirit is inviting me, you know, through reading his word to check my motives. And to be pushing myself in certain ways to say, why am I doing this? What's my heart doing in this moment?
Yeah. Wow, that is powerful. Unfortunately, we're getting short on time here. As we begin to wrap up, Pierce, for listeners who really genuinely want to cultivate godly motives in their giving, where would you suggest they begin? If you want to focus on godly motives for giving, even though it sounds Maybe obvious.
Really read scripture, especially the gospels, and watch what Jesus does and how he interacts with people. The story in Mark 12. of the widow's offering is a great place to begin.
So read that story and read it in the parallel passages. For other people who are interested in having a more expansive view of giving, you can check out the book of giving that I wrote to give a broader perspective on this throughout Scripture. Excellent. Pierce, so thankful for your time today. I know we just scratched the surface, but really thoughtful counsel for us, and I know it's been an encouragement to those listening.
Thanks for being here. Wow, thanks for having me. That's Pierce Taylor Hibbs. He's the author of more than 20 books on Christian living, including the one he just mentioned: The Book of Giving: How the God Who Gives Can Make Us Givers. Back with your questions after this.
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We're taking your calls at 800-525-7000. Baltimore, Gladys, how can I help? Hi, Robin. Thank you so much for taking my call. Appreciate you doing your message.
Well, thank you very much. And I'm calling because my son lives in Baltimore and he has a rental property. It was his first home and then they bought a second home and they rented out that first home and the tenant hasn't paid their rent in the last two months and this isn't the first time she's gotten behind and it is putting a burden on them.
So now they're considering selling the home.
So, but in order to do that, they'd have to do some additional work in the house. And I just wanted to see what you thought. And even if they don't sell it, is are there tax advantages or things that they can apply to their taxes because the They're not able to rent the house. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. It's a tough situation, Gladys.
Before deciding to sell, I think we need to separate the short-term problem from the long-term viability of the property.
So here's one way to think about it. First, we need to address the non-paying tenant.
So, if rent hasn't been paid for a couple of months, does your son understand his state's eviction process, even a mediation process, if the goal is to try to get the renter back on track? And is there an opportunity to begin taking steps? I mean, typically letting this drag on can make it worse. But has he looked into that at all? Yeah, just to consider what that option would be for the eviction process.
Okay.
So I think that would be important first. And, you know, I think you need to then step back and evaluate whether the rental still makes sense even under ideal conditions. You know, if it's draining cash and creating stress, I would say selling can absolutely be a wise decision, especially in today's market where prices are still strong in most areas.
So I would look at that as a real option here. And the fact that, you know, we need to, if we're going to be in the rental business, because the money is so illiquid, and especially when there's debt service involved, you really need to have a pretty good cushion to be able to weather, you know, these storms, whether it's a non-paying tenant or a gap. You know, one tenant moves out and the market conditions or the economy is such that it's hard to replace it. If we're not in a position to be able to cover that, then I think it's probably time to get out of the landlord business. This recoup your capital and then either invest it in more of a passive investment or just continue to sock money away so that the next time he goes into the rental business, which I like a lot, don't get me wrong, he's able to either buy with cash or buy something where he has a significant position of equity.
So the debt service is very small. And even as he's getting rental income from an on-time payer, he's socking some money away to build up a really healthy emergency fund.
So I think just given what you're describing, I think getting out of it and just being free from that burden and stress until he can have a stronger financial foundation under him is important. On the tax side, you can, of course, deduct ordinary rental expenses.
So all the typical things, mortgage interest, property taxes, insurance, repairs, HOA fees, utilities you pay, even if the tenant isn't paying. as long as the property is, quote, available for rent. You can deduct depreciation whether it's occupied or not.
So, if the property is temporarily vacant, but it's listed and advertised, or it's got a tenant in it who's just non-paying, then you can keep all the normal rental deductions. But if he ultimately sells, then of course capital gains rules apply where he would have to pay capital gains tax on any gain from the original purchase price minus any improvements. Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. And I had not even considered the capital gains tax.
That's something that we would have to really look into, right? Yeah, I mean, it's not terrible. I mean, most people fall into a 15% capital gains bracket, and that's only on the gain.
So he would take his selling price minus his original purchase price, minus any improvements, not regular maintenance, but things that improve the value of the property. And then that's going to result in the true gain that he had on the asset. And then that gain, based on his income and the total gain, generally, if it's between $90,000 and $500,000, it's going to end up being 15% of that number.
Okay, thank you so much. That helps a lot. All right. Broke around. Bye-bye.
Well, thank you, Gladys. I appreciate that very much. Bye-bye.
Thank you for calling today. Let's go to Tennessee. Hi, Michael. Go ahead. Oh yes, thank you for your show.
I am full-time informant and I'd like to Withdrawal. Money out of 401k.
Okay.
What is your age? 64. Yeah, okay.
Well, since you're over 59 and a half, Michael, you absolutely can withdraw money from that 401k without the 10% early withdrawal penalty. You're still going to owe ordinary income tax on whatever you take out. And so, you know, are you still working, or did you say you're fully retired? No, I'm still working full time.
Okay.
Yeah, okay.
So you need to check with your plan because some employers limit withdrawals while you're still working.
So you're going to need to ask about something called an in service withdrawal. And I think the key here is think long term.
So pulling money out means less growth for retirement.
So sometimes, you know, there's other options you may want to consider. I would just say use it with purpose. Make sure it's a real need, not lifestyle spending to the best of your ability. But yeah, you're going to need to ask about that in-service withdrawal. If they allow it, then you're going to be able to get by without that penalty.
But again, just make sure you're ready for the tax implications of that when you file.
Okay, so I need to call the company that this is with. That's exactly right. Call either your HR department or your planned administrator and just say, I'm still working. I'd like to take an in-service withdrawal. Tell me how that works.
Um Okay, that'll be great. Thank you. All right. Thanks for your call today. Let's go to Texas.
Hi, Thomas. Go ahead. I had a question about reverse mortgages. My wife is retired and in her sixties, but I am not at retirement age yet. Can we still get a reverse mortgage Or do we both have to be of a certain age?
Yeah. We're both on the mortgage as well.
Okay, got it. And so, what is it? Give me a little rundown of the equity that you have in the house right now.
So I'd say roughly about one hundred and fifty to one hundred and seventy.
Okay, that's the the equity that you have? Yes, sir.
Okay, yeah.
So, in order to qualify, you know, the youngest borrower. Must be, you know, the at least 62.
So if your wife were to apply alone, if your wife is on the title and at least 62, she could apply for the reverse in her name only. and then you as the younger spouse would be listed as a non-borrowing spouse. And so, while your wife is alive and living in the home, the reverse mortgage works as it does normally. If she passes before you, protections would allow you to stay in the home. Thanks for calling.
Folks, thanks for being along with us today. Hope you'll come back and join us tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.
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