The spiritual condition of America, politics, culture, and current events, analyzed through the lens of Scripture. Welcome to the Alex McFarland Show. The Eclipse of God, America's Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity.
Hi, Alex McFarland here. That is the title of a new book by Dr. Erwin Lutzer, prolific author, beloved pastor of the Moody Church in Chicago. And I'm so grateful to God to say a long-time colleague and close friend. And we're going to have Dr. Lutzer on the program today, and we'll unpack what is just a very, sadly, true title, an inclusive deity.
That's what a lot of people apparently want. But for those that may not be aware, Dr. Lutzer is the pastor emeritus of Moody Church, one of America's historic churches. He was there from 1980 to 2016. He is a renowned author.
The cross and the shadow of the crescent, the king is coming. And you know, one of the ways that I became acquainted with his ministry when I was a youth and college pastor, and then we began to do apologetics conferences, Dr. Lutzer has a book out called Seven Reasons You Can Trust the Bible. And I bought dozens of copies of that book.
I gave them to college students, high schoolers, and they loved it. And the faith of so many people, my own included, was strengthened. And what an honor. More than 23 years ago, when he first spoke at one of our Truth for a New Generation conferences, and you know, he was everything I hoped he would be. And it's so refreshing when somebody you meet turns out to be absolutely authentic and real, and he is. And he is a force for Christ's great commission. He's our guest today. Dr. Erwin Lutzer, welcome to our program. So glad to be with you, Alex, and to be able to see the growth of your ministry. I've been learning things about what you've been doing and expanding. And at the end of the day, what we need to do is to understand the gospel, share the gospel, but also what you do very well, defend the gospel and help people to understand why it is not only a message that comes to us from God, but it's very defensible, both within itself, but also, as you think of external reasons, why it is that Jesus is the only way to the Father. And that's our heart, to explain that to people.
Indeed, indeed. I want to talk about your new book. I've said this to you a time or two. You've written many books.
I think this is your best one. But before we get there, share with the listeners, if you would, how the Lord got a hold of your life. You not only became a Christian minister, but an apologist, a defender of the gospel. How did God do those things in your life?
You know, I was born into a Christian home in Saskatchewan, Canada. I was the last of five children. So I grew up occasionally milking cows, but spending a lot of time on the tractor. And even back then, Alex, I was memorizing scripture.
There was something within me that told me that the farm was not my destiny. But what really changed me was about 1951, I went to the first Billy Graham film, which I know you didn't see because Billy didn't want it shown, entitled Mr. Texas. And I came back from that film, and my brother had taken us there because I couldn't drive, of course. I was very young. And I got hooked on Billy.
And my generation of teenagers was into Elvis, and I was into Billy. And I think I probably made the better choice. But when I was 14, I was under such deep conviction of sin.
Now, this is important for people because maybe there are other people who had the same experience I did. I would ask Jesus into my heart, but nothing changed. And I began to think maybe I can't be saved. And here I am under conviction, and my parents sensed that, and they said, we think it's time for you to get saved. So they explained it was by faith, whether I felt differently or not.
We got down on our knees in that old little house, small farmhouse. That night, I received Christ by faith. And the next day, I knew that I knew God. I had the total assurance of the Holy Spirit.
And I want to make a point here. There are many people who get saved today who believe on Jesus, who have no conviction of sin. They think grace is kind of nice.
It's a nice thing to have. I need Jesus' help. And they do not see their sin clearly. Therefore, they do not understand grace clearly because, as I point out in the book, someone has said, and I quote it in the book, grace is not sweet until sin is bitter. And you have people getting saved who don't even know how lost they are.
Say that again. Grace is not sweet until sin is bitter. And the more bitter the sin. Now, one of the things in the book, The Eclipse of God, the last chapter is returning to the God of wrath and grace, not the God of unconditional love. And people say, wow, a God of wrath.
Yes, indeed. But it is that that magnifies grace. And we can't understand grace until we understand the wrath of God. So anyway, I was converted.
The story of how God led me to Moody Church is in my autobiography entitled He Will Be the Preacher, because when I was a baby sleeping in a crib, a pastor's wife said to my mother in German, he will be the preacher. I don't know how she knew that. Maybe it was just an offhand remark. But, you know, it came to pass.
Indeed, it did. One of the questions that we'll talk about in the context of the book is God more tolerant than he used to be? But before we get there, let's talk for a moment about the wrath of God, because, you know, Paul admonished Timothy to preach the word. And we Christians are responsible to declare the whole counsel of God.
So here's my question. Why do we not hear preachers preach against sin? Why do we not hear about the judgment and wrath to come? I mean, who wants to hear that? What we want to hear is that God loves everybody unconditionally, which people interpret to mean, I'm sleeping with my girlfriend, but he approves of it unconditionally. And so what we have done is we've pared God down to manageable proportions.
I want to ask you a question, Alex, and you don't have to answer this, but you can if you wish. How many sermons have you ever heard on hell? Zero, except for the two that I preach. Oh, yes. Interestingly, I preached twice, I think it was at Moody Church on hell, and I could scarcely sleep the night before.
It's terrifying. But for us to avoid that, we are leading with an unbalanced view of God. So God is very tolerant. God is very accepting. He is all love.
Well, he has, but he's also judgment. Do I have time to quote one verse of scripture? Absolutely. You think of Jesus, you know, meek and mild.
Okay. This is what Paul says. He's going to return in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be separated with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power.
Wow, that takes your breath away. And in Revelation 6, the people who see the glory of God, they're saying, rocks fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb. That's true.
Yeah, I think about this. Jonathan Edwards of the First Great Awakening, regarding the subject of hell, Edwards said, "'Tis dreadful, "'tis awful, but "'tis true." Exactly. And you know, in my book in that last chapter, I do quote sinners in the hands of an angry God, namely Edwards' sermon.
And Alex, did you know, I've discovered that students in seminary are asked to read that sermon as an example of how not to preach. Really? Really. Oh, my word. But you know, when you get to the end of the message, Edwards is pleading with people to believe on Christ. Indeed.
Of course. He preached this so that they might be terrified of God. Oh, you shouldn't scare people. Oh, really? Why didn't you tell God that when he came on to Mount Sinai? Don't scare people.
They were scared out of their wits. Yeah. Hold that thought. We've got to take a break. I apologize.
I want to come back. This is Dr. Erwin Lutzer on the program today. What a great honor. Folks, stay tuned, The Eclipse of God, his new book, which I urge you to read. More with Erwin Lutzer after this. Fox News and CNN call Alex McFarland a religion and culture expert. Stay tuned for more of his teaching and commentary after this.
Hi, Alex McFarland here. I want to make you aware of two really important speaking engagements in July of 2025. I'll be at the Cove, the Billy Graham Training Center, July 18-20, teaching the book of Job. And then July 28 through August 1 with J. Warner Wallace, a week of apologetics with myself and Jim Wallace.
Go to the Cove.org, the Cove.org, and I hope to see you next summer. He's been called trusted, truthful and timely. Welcome back to The Alex McFarland Show.
Welcome back to the program. You know, that's one of the examples in radio when a break comes at a less than ideal place. Dr. Lutzer, before the break you were talking about when Moses was on Mount Sinai, and the people no doubt were afraid, and the mountain trembled. It's only reasonable and rational to have a fear of God. I want you to complete that thought if you would, please.
Absolutely. And you know, people say, well, Christians shouldn't fear God. Well, I understand that we are in Christ. But if you read 1 Peter 1, he says that we should even go about living in fear. And I think it means being afraid of being disobedient to God, not that we'll lose our salvation, but we will lose rewards. But for the unconverted, God is a God of wrath. You know, you read the Old Testament and you discover that God is making all of these harsh pronouncements regarding the ungodly. And for us to omit that is to have a very imbalanced view of God.
Why? We have shapen God to our own image. And you know, Alex, we're talking about the book The Eclipse of God. One of the reasons I wrote it is because there was an article in The Economist that said that God is becoming more tolerant.
He's becoming like us. The online version says, nearer my God to me. And that's why in the book I have a chapter on nearer my God to me.
He's agreeing with us about everything. He's not a God to be feared. He's actually a God that we have made up in our own consciousness, a God who allows us to live as we like whom we can access without a mediator and without any fear.
And the God turns out to be nothing more than the figment of people's imagination. Isn't it important that the God in whom we believe is the God presented in the pages of Scripture, God's self-revelation to the human race, not a God of our imagination, but the actual living God of written revelation? And not only that, but it's also important that we believe in the right Christ. You remember Paul says there are many Christs, and we have Christs today, whether or not it's the Christ of Mormonism or other Christs, who are not the Christs of the New Testament. If you read some of the New Age literature, they're talking about Jesus all the time. But they're not talking about our Jesus. I was talking to a New Age pastor. She was very famous in Chicago.
She's now died. But she said, she said, I preach Christ, and here's a quote, but when I preach him, I'm not talking about Jesus of Nazareth. She said, I'm talking about the Christ who indwells everybody.
Well, that Christ can't save anybody. So it's not only necessary that we believe in the right God. We have to believe in the right Savior, because anybody can take the name of Christ. Self-consciousness can take the name of Christ. So we have to ask, are we believing in the real God and the real Jesus, the only one who's qualified to save? In the Eclipse of God book, and I want to talk about the content throughout the book, but one of the final chapters, maybe it is the final chapter, a very clever play on words, but very accurate. You said there was the Edwards sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, but today we've got God in the Hands of Angry Sinners. And that's really true. And I've had people say to me, the God that I know would never send anyone to hell.
Oh, really? The way to answer that is to say, that is fascinating. How do you know about this God? Has he revealed himself to you? Or is this the God that you simply prefer? When God said to Moses, I am that I am, what he was saying is I am who I am and not who you would prefer me to be. So my argument is we have to go back to the God as he is.
And in many of the chapters of the book, whether or not I'm dealing with truth or law or morality, what I intend to show is that unless we get back to the God of Scripture, we have no basis for all these other disciplines. I want to ask you this, because you, for a number of decades, you were at one of America's strongest churches, Moody Church. You're still the emeritus pastor there.
We have a lot of people listening who are pastors, smaller church pastors and leaders, Sunday school. How did you prepare for the Sunday morning sermon? Now, did you do book studies? I didn't do a lot of book studies, preaching through books.
I know there are people who think I should have and maybe I should have, but I did series. For example, a number of them come to mind, like how to live for the glory of God, eight different messages, but all of them unified on how to live for the glory of God, but different passages of scripture, how to live in for the glory of God in your vocation and how to live in the glory of God and your sexuality. So there were many series like that, like the power of a clear conscience. How do you understand conscience?
How do you live with a clear conscience? These were series of messages, but they were all unified around a central theme. And I think my staff, I've never counted it, they said I did more than 90 series of messages on topics like that, but they were always expository.
And it was always called, you know, a topical exposition where I was interested in a certain topic and I would expound the passage as it relates to that topic. Now, if you get to some nitty-gritty questions as to how to preach with order and progress, you'll have to have me on another show. But I explain that to pastors all the time. Somebody gave me an idea that was just revolutionary. Well, listen, I give God the glory, but I think you, really like few people I ever knew, you preached God's word, it was evangelistic, but you brought in world view, you brought in apologetics, and it was such a full nutrition of scripture. Well, for example, my book, Christ Among Other Gods, which turned out to be, and is still in print and still being used, that actually was a series of messages defending the uniqueness of Christ against other gods.
So there is an example. But I want to hitchhike on that and say this. I was just interviewed before you're interviewing me, and the man asked whether or not I ever preached on politics. I have never endorsed a political candidate, but here's the thing. If you preach the word, you're going to preach on issues which today are deemed political, the whole issue of sexuality and gender confusion. You preach about that, I hope that pastors do. You're encroaching on something that is very political. One of the things I show in the book is if you believe in human rights, you have to believe that as a Christian, and if you believe it and you aren't a Christian, it's because God created you in His image. You cannot get to human rights from human beings, and I show why that's so. So what we have to do is, whether or not it has to do with abortion or a host of other issues, these are political issues, but they are also biblical issues.
So you can preach to the culture, about the culture, helping Christians to navigate the culture and be thoroughly biblical, and yet you are impinging on a political agenda. Indeed. We've got to take a brief break.
We're going to come back. Stay tuned, folks. More with Dr. Erwin Lutzer after this. Fox News and CNN call Alex McFarland a religion and culture expert. Stay tuned for more of his teaching and commentary after this. Conversations That Matter is a four-part speaker series bringing to the grand strand some of the best thinkers in America to talk about the overlap of faith and culture.
Hi, Alex McFarland here. I want to invite you May 4th, 7 p.m. at the Greg Rolls Legacy Theater in North Myrtle Beach to hear my longtime friend and colleague, Dinesh D'Souza. Dinesh is going to be talking about Trump's first 100 days. His talk is titled American Politics, Past, Present, and Future. Join us for this unforgettable evening with one of America's most astute thinkers and opinion makers, Dinesh D'Souza. May 4th, 7 p.m., the Greg Rolls Legacy Theater in North Myrtle Beach. Visit alexmcfarland.com. That's alexmcfarland.com for information and tickets. I would like to see you May 4th to hear in person Dinesh D'Souza.
He's been called trusted, truthful, and timely. Welcome back to The Alex McFarland Show. Welcome back to the program. We're going to resume our conversation with Dr. Erwin Lutzer. I want to remind everybody about the ministries. If you would please visit alexmcfarland.com.
We've got our seven summer youth camps, our speaker series at Myrtle Beach, South Carolina with Dr. Gary Chapman and Charlie Kirk and Dinesh D'Souza and Lauren Green. Please pray, please promote, please plan to attend, and please know that we are grateful for your prayers and your tax-deductible financial support that enables us seven days a week to be on radio, television, camps, conferences all around the country to evangelize the lost and equip the saved. May God be praised. Well, Dr. Erwin Lutzer is our guest, and he has a brand new book out which I recommend in the strongest possible terms, The Eclipse of God, published by Harvest House.
Great publisher. What is the basic premise of the book, The Eclipse of God? What we have to do is to get back to the biblical God and not the gods of popular culture. For example, the article that I referred to earlier, The Economist said, nobody believes in the smitey almighty, the God who smote the Egyptians and so forth. Now, what I do in the book, as you know, I have a chapter on the smitey almighty. I deal with the killing of the Canaanites, the stoning of people.
And then one of the longest chapters is, is God more tolerant than he used to be? I mean, we don't do that today. So people think it is safer to sin today because we're under grace and not under law.
They think that God is not punishing people anymore. And yet I argue, of course, that that is wrong. And I show that the Lord says, I am the Lord and I change not.
So how do we harmonize that? And very quickly, Alex, people must understand this, that where there is greater light, there's greater responsibility. What you find in the New Testament is that judgment to come is far worse than anything in the Old Testament. It says in the book of Hebrews, it says, if people died under two or three witnesses under Moses, of how much greater punishment will you suppose will come upon you if you trample underfoot the blood of Christ and cause it to be defiled? And the same thing is said again in Hebrews, you know, that he who spoke on earth at Sinai, oy vey, when he speaks from heaven, it's going to be far worse.
So we're under a different administration. God is dealing with us differently. And, you know, the Bible says in Ecclesiastes, because the judgment against sin is deferred, people think it's okay to do wrong. They do not understand that God's standards have not changed. God's attitude towards sin has not changed at all. And I deal with Andy Stanley, who thinks that we should unhitch the Old Testament from the New Testament.
I was just going to ask you this. Yeah, just so wrong, so disappointing. Because in John 5.39, the Lord said, search the scriptures for they testify of me. That would have been the Old Testament. And you have all these quotations in the New Testament from the Old. I mean, really, I just, I can't relate to that because it just makes no sense at all. Or not to add to or take away from the Bible.
Right, right. So what we have to do is to recognize that we come to the scriptures, they are consistent, and we have to look to the Old Testament as examples of God's judgment against sin. We do it differently today, but his standard has not changed.
Dealing with us is different. We don't stone people today, but what we do is we do exercise church discipline for those who do those kinds of things. And here's the thing, Alex, people have to understand that one of the great changes is in the Old Testament, God was dealing with one nation, namely Israel, and the relationship of other nations to Israel. Well, after the New Testament, after Pentecost, the church is now transnational in every country of the world, under all kinds of different governments. You don't have a theocracy anymore, but God is continuing to judge. And as I say, the judgments in the New Testament, because we have more light, is much greater than anything in the Old Testament.
Is there any way in which you would compare the American church of the 21st century to the German church while Hitler was coming to the ascendancy? You know, in the book I have an interesting thing. Hitler had a great idea. What he did is he took the uniforms of allied soldiers, British and American, and he put them on German so that the Germans could go behind enemy lines and cause havoc. That's what false teachers do.
They wear the uniform of Christianity, but actually they are working for the enemy. And that's what I think has to be said. I also want to get in a quick word about truth. If we still have a minute or two here. We've got several minutes.
All right, good. In chapter 7, what I try to help parents to understand is this. Why, when I send my kid to university, why do they come back thinking differently than I do? It's because the theory of truth has changed. When you and I were younger, during the days when men couldn't have babies, what we discovered was that truth was objective.
It was outside of ourselves. We could argue as to whether or not we got there or the method to get there, but we knew this. If we found some truth, it didn't matter whether we believed it because that which was true is true and that which is false is false. Now, what did Marx teach? Truth is socially constructed.
It is constructed by people who want to stay in power. Now suddenly, truth moves within the individual and it's based on feelings. So feelings become facts and now everybody has different feelings about different things.
And so you have your truth and my truth, which of course is absurdity. And when you get to the university, I quote a teacher's manual that says that no student should ever be told that his answer is wrong. So it gives 12 different ways that you can handle a wrong answer.
You can say, I've never thought of that before or hang on to that idea because after all, you cannot hurt their self-esteem because part of education in today's world is to allow the students to find their own self-esteem. And while I'm on a roll, if I have a minute longer, keep rolling. All right, here you have speech codes. The purpose of the speech codes, for example, you shouldn't use the word America. I quote a university, you shouldn't use the word migrant and it goes on.
One other is if you have a barbershop in the area, don't say that he takes in walk-ins because you'll offend people who can't walk. All right, everybody take a deep breath now. No matter where you're listening, breathe in deeply. What's going on? Is it intended to elevate the discussion? Of course not.
It's to silence the discussion. Nobody knows what is right. People don't know. Can I still go into a restaurant and ask for a menu? Can women have a manicure?
Is that still legal? Nobody knows. And that's why students self-censor themselves. Well, we could go in more depth, but we have to understand what's happening today in our culture and in our universities. You know, what you're saying is so true and it just reminds me of where Roman says, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Dr. Lutzer, 35 years ago when I entered graduate school, my professor, Dr. Norman Geisler, rest his soul, Dr. Geisler taught us that truth is that which corresponds to reality. In other words, irrespective of our opinion or our bias, truth is what corresponds to reality.
Booker T. Washington. Error doesn't become right. Evil doesn't become good. Wrong doesn't become right just because the majority believe it to be so.
It is objective. It exists outside of us and you don't have to believe it in order for it to be true. We're talking with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, prolific author, just beloved American Christian figure, and his new book is The Eclipse of God published by Harvest House Publishers. If you have a local Christian bookstore, I urge you to support your local Christian bookstore.
And I know there are online Christian retailers and of course Barnes & Noble and Amazon. And I want you to have a final word. I'm reminded of a quote, the famous American author Flannery O'Connor, she said, truth doesn't change just because we can't stomach it. Excellent. I love that quote and here's one other thing. Jesus offended people and he didn't apologize for it.
So I'm going to give you one quote here and that is this, it is better to be slapped by truth than to be kissed by lies. Wow, powerful. Website where people can find all their books. People of course can go to Amazon, The Eclipse of God, or you can go to MoodyMedia.org or go to Christian Book. They have a good sale on the book, ChristianBook.com.
Well I want to thank you for your time today and I said this with all sincerity. I get a lot of books and they're great. And very often I get volumes of books in the mail and I pass them on. Your books I keep. Your books Angie and I both read.
She sends her love. I want to thank you for being our friend for so many years, but more importantly what you and Rebecca mean to the Great Commission. You're a role model to so many, myself included. Thank you Alex and God bless you and expand your ministry. God bless you.
Folks, thanks for listening. Stay bold, stand strong for truth, and remember 1 Corinthians 15.58, your labor in the Lord is not in vain. Alex McFarland Ministries are made possible through the prayers and financial support of partners like you. For over 20 years this ministry has been bringing individuals into a personal relationship with Christ and has been equipping people to stand strong for truth. Learn more and donate securely online at AlexMcFarland.com. You may also reach us by calling 1-877-Yes-God-1. That's 1-877-Yes-God-1. Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you again on the next edition of the Alex McFarland Show. Prayer is the nerve that moves the muscle of God. Hi, Alex McFarland here encouraging you to download our free PDF of 31 Days of Prayer for Our Nation. Discover how consistent prayer can transform your heart and our nation. These are times of uncertainty, people need hope, and specific prayers get specific answers. So go to AlexMcFarland.com and download the free PDF of prayer and I challenge you to make this next 31 days a time of powerful prayer.
