Yeah. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said, Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light. and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now let's begin today's episode. On this episode of Passion for Christ, you'll be hearing a conversation that I had with a friend named Lee.
Now, Lee associates himself with the Mormon church. He states that he was a Christian before he became a Mormon.
So, some interesting dynamics here. I'd love to hear from you about what you think about this. What would you like to say to Lee? Please send me an email. Russ at upfc.org.
That's Russ R-U-S-S at U as in Utah, P as in partnerships, F as in 4, C as in Christ.org. What would you say to him? How would you share the gospel with Lee? Thanks so much. For joining us here on Passion for Christ.
Welcome to Passion for Christ. This is Russ East, your host. I want to thank Kevin McGahey for providing the instrumentals that you hear on Passion for Christ. I'm with my friend Lee, and you may remember hearing from Lee on one of our other programs. Today Lee is going to share Uh as to a few just three questions.
Uh Lee is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And Lee is going to and just kind of give an answer. On three questions. The questions are: why did Jesus have to die? The second question is what took place when he died?
When Jesus died. And then the third question is: where do you believe? Lee, you will go the moment you die.
So, thank you, Lee, for being willing to just give us your perspectives. I realize this is not like a formal. Declaration from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Would you say that's fair to say this is just kind of your opinions based on many years of being a member of this church. Is that fair to say?
It is very distinct. And of course I I I I was A Christian long before I joined the Church of Jesus Christ in Latter-day Saints. And so Uh my background includes much more Right. Why did Jesus die? Yeah, why did he have to die?
Jesus died. He is A member of the Godhead. There's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Well, Jesus is the Son. Oh. And he came to Earth as we did, experiencing mortality and Uh because of that. he, uh, he had to die. But the way he died included um But In Gethsemane, he paid uh for our scenes by by taking upon the sins of the world, for those who are willing to repent.
And so he suffered. greatly, much more than any of us could conceive And why did he die?
Well, he died Partly, number one, to To break the bonds of death, he has the power of the resurrection. And he applies that to all of us all of us. Uh, who lives in Morcal, is he? But he also paid the price. He had to die Uh in order to To meet the demands of justice, there must be, in God's eyes, a payment for.
For sin that will allow us to Return to his presence. We can't go back into God's presence. Boom. filthy with sin, it has to be cleansed. And so The death of Christ was much more than just the death that we you and I experience.
It was the pay also included the payment Uh for sin. the payment for sin.
So when you had mentioned that Gethsemane Was a kind of a part of that. Could you kind of extrapolate on that a little bit? Because from my More, you know, the Protestant or evangelical standpoint would be that Jesus, He sweat, as it were. Like drops of blood. He was in such anguish looking to the cross.
And so this was just simply the. Anguish of praying three times, Lord, Father, take this cup from me, but yet, nevertheless. not my will, but your will be done. But I think there might be some some merit to To talking about that just for a moment. When you brought that up, it was kind of a unique teaching, I think, that your church has.
the the atonement for sin occurred largely there. in in in Gethsemane. As far as I am understanding it, I and I think my understanding is the same as yours.
Well, it would actually politely I would of course differ with you because The way the scripture seems to tell it, just looking at the Bible, it seems to say that it was just the. the the only payment for sin, as you talked about, Took place in the death of Jesus, just as if the animal was brought to the temple or the tabernacle. It wasn't the not to not to belittle this, the anguish, but That had nothing to do with the work of the priests, you know. It was the death of that animal that had to be performed.
So. we we may come to uh you know just uh uh agree to d disagree here as to what the scriptures say about this. If you were to only look at the Bible teaching, it would definitely teach about the agony The fact that an angel came to minister. To to Jesus. But but that that atonement or payment for sin Really there's gonna be a a you know a chasm between Our churches as to the significance of the Garden of Gethsemane.
I was going to ask you a question, kind of a follow-up to that, would be. If Jesus never went to the Garden of Gethsemane and He only died on the cross, According to what your church has taught and your understanding of it, would that have been enough? To pay for our sins I don't think the cross was Uh alone enough. And I believe Gethsemane had a very strong part of the uh the payment of sins occurred a lot there. And if you remember when Christ was on the cross and he was uh having a conversation with the two male factors.
Uh he turned to the one and said Uh today thou shalt be with me in paradise. And so the punishment or the atonement for the sin If if we know When they both died, And if they met in Paradise, well paradise isn't where it doesn't sound like there's a payment for sin there. And so I think that we're left with They uh The sacrifice on the cross, but also in Gethsemane in terms of the payment for sin. And so Well Would you say that when we look at the pattern of the temple and the tabernacle? Where it was so evident that The The animal that was brought to the priest, you know, that it had to be killed.
So, could you help me understand? A little bit more, and by no means am I trying to be contentious with just asking the follow-up on this, but how does How does the um the meeting of justice Why can't it be that just Jesus It's it's enough that he bore every sin ever committed, He bore every shameful act, every shameful omission, commission, thought, anything that would be considered as sin. He paid that price. And he kind of, you know, he not kind of, he took it upon himself, and that's why the father. was was separate from him, and he said, Why have you forsaken me?
But would wouldn't that Lee be be just such an amazing gift that That would be the the essence of of what the gift of salvation is is really We'll be right back for the rest of today's testimony. Please know we at Utah Partnerships for Christ have been planting seeds of the gospel in Utah for over 24 years. We welcome any questions you may have and invite you to visit our website to obtain a list of words and definitions that would help you understand how Mormons think. And how to be able to better witness to your friends who belong to the Mormon Church. That website is www.upfc.org.
That's upfc.org. We'll be right back. Welcome to Passion for Christ, a ministry of Utah Partnerships for Christ. In Acts 26, 18, Jesus said, Paul's purpose was to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We hope you'll join us for today's testimony of lives changed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now let's begin today's episode. Afterwards. We die, there's two places in the Yeah. Yeah. Such as the people that described in First Peter there.
Or you can go to uh paradise. Bye. Christ was mentioning to the one mouse actor. Uh Those who've already accepted the gospel would maybe perhaps go to paradise. And so I I guess I view When when a person dies, If they live a life of darkness, You know, when we when we die, all people the physical vision would be gone.
And the only thing left is a spiritual light or Darkness. And those who are in spiritual prison, I should imagine it's a very dark place. And people who lived a a life of anger and hate. Um And yet people who uh who, uh, die with a With a knowledge of the gospel and a commitment to the Savior, would be. go to a place of light and truth.
And so Uh I in my mind I think that It's the the difference of the two parts of w where you could go is a matter of spiritual light and truth. And so, um In those who never had a chance to receive the gospel in this life. according to the justice of God would Would receive the gospel or the opportunity to accept or reject it. Again, um and the spirit what we call the spirit world. And then, only after that opportunity is given, would we have.
Come to the point of the the final judgment, you know, what kind of reward a person eternally would get. Wow, we have a lot to unpack there. Maybe I could just really quickly go to that passage in 1 Peter. If you don't mind, do you mind if I just interject with uh Reading that'd be great if you got it open. Yes, yes.
Okay, so I have here. First Peter Chapter 3, verse 18. I'll read that in just one second. I just also wanted to read this really beautiful verse here in 1 Peter 1. uh verse three and four and five and it says Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God, through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.
And then, you know, we could just read the whole scripture here, couldn't we, Lee? I mean, it's just so amazing that here's the Apostle Peter, who. Wrote these things inspired by the Holy Spirit. But we go on to chapter 3 and we look at verse - let's go back a little bit. The seventeen here it says, For it is better if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well-doing than for evil doing.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins. the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which for some time Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, While the Ark was preparing, when the wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. And so So just kind of pausing there for a moment. I guess, you know, one thing...
that I think we would both value, and that would be Understanding what an author would be trying to say to us. uh say in a different language A different time period and understanding the full context, and then being a good student. to try to determine what in the year 2025 you know, looking at the way words are used and so forth. And what I'm all I'm getting at is It's it's it's important, of course. that we would look at the word in verse 19.
by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
So I think you know there's a good website called Blue LetterBible.com. And it's where you can go and you can look at verses, and you can look at the language of Greek and Hebrew, and you can see. What what is being said by through the Greek language and and you can see how the translators uh put it into English words and so we might look at a word like Per adventure or Or preach or something, and we might have a vision in our mind.
Well, what does that mean? You know, preach, does it mean to proclaim? Is it for. trying to solicit a response and so forth, but maybe you could just You know, that this is a to me, this is a uh this particular verse about preaching to spirits in prison, Christ doing that. Uh is is so Um Compelling because why would he preach to people if there were not the opportunity for repentance?
Okay. This is a great.
So important in terms of our view of the justice of God that everyone gets a chance. And if there's someone who was born without the chance in in the flesh, Yeah. After experiencing the the suffering of this life, they They have it. A chance to hear the pure gospel for of Jesus Christ That and to either accept it or to reject it. Everyone has a choice.
And so, of course, that verse would only pertain to that time period. Between his death and resurrection, it wouldn't be that Jesus is. doing that now, right? It wouldn't be something that I would I I would think that It applies to People of all time. And so this is this, I mean, he's.
He went to the to preach this At his that time to them, and yet those who have accepted the gospel, such as the other male factor, uh and went to Paradise, the people from Paradise can go Edit. As servants of the living God to preach to the spirits in prison as well.
Okay, but Jesus wouldn't be doing that today, right? He wouldn't be. Maybe. Maybe not him personally, but he sent the apostles out to preach to the world, and so. Uh from my Perspective and what I believe we're taught in the church I belong to that Christ organized the the faithful saints who had already died.
Andrew we're in What would be called paradise to be able to preach to the spirits in prison?
So some people get to hear Christ Actual voice in this directly. And some people have the opportunity to accept the gospel through the uh his chosen servants who are sent to preach. And so It is my belief that that that teaching to the dead who never had a chance to receive the gospel in the flesh. is going on now. And you ask the question, what do I think will happen when I die?
I'm going to go to, I'm hoping to. Paradise, but I'm believing that I will be there and be able to go to the To some of the spirits in prison, who maybe even my own relatives or ancestors who never had the chance to hear the gospel.
Okay, thank you so much. That's a good segue into that last part of our time today. In saying that, you know, I've asked people in a kind way, just as we're having a good non-contentious discussion, but I'll say to them, I'll say, now, are you an American? And the person I'm talking to will, if they are American, they very quickly just say, Yes, of course, I'm American, yeah. And however, I'm not sure if you could just be very kind of candid with us just to say If you're saying those those words of kind of humility or just trying not to be boastful when you say you hope to be.
You know, if because if you have put your faith and cr and trust in Christ that he took your sin as he took my sin And he paid for it. And if and if that was the true payment necessary for my forgiveness and yours. Wouldn't that be enough? Or what would what would cause that that bit of Doubt. in your mind whether you'd be in paradise or spirit prison.
If you don't mind me just kind of framing it that way.
Well, my mortal life is not over w with yet. And we have in history seen people who have been faithful and Uh Turned a w turned aside. And so Uh I think my mortal probation includes. Hopefully there's I'm seventy seven years old almost and so There I think I have a few more years maybe left in me, but I I remember uh A um a friend who is on had at Death's doorstep and The He was saying, I hope I can remain faithful till the end. Right.
And so if a meteor were to hit, and we're speaking not into the future, but even like right now, if I could just. Politely just ask if, you know, God forbid, but if both, you know, if your life and my life were to end today, like in the next 30 seconds, you know. V does that does your answer still Apply it the same right now. I feel pretty good if it happened right now. I'd I'd feel fairly confident.
Okay, okay. And so Fairly confident. Our friends who are of the evangelical side, I'm on the side of the evangelical Protestant. And Lee, you know, of course, you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We're having a good conversation.
No contention here, but. I I Would be just as confident that I'm an American, that I'm going to be present with the Lord. Like in Philippians. uh where where Paul says Um absent from the body is present with the Lord. You know, and and isn't that great, you know, that that that I think w we can have that same Humble confidence in that the work that Jesus did and his perfect life.
That's enough, and that I don't have to resort to thinking through my own life and going, well, you know. God is pretty holy. I'm not very holy. I wonder if I've done enough. I wonder if I've made it enough.
You know what I'm saying? I want to share that with you out of love, you know? Maybe that's why a lot of people say, Have you been saved? Right. Oh, absolutely.
And you can confidently say, I have been saved. Yes. Yes, exactly. And it's not because I'm trying to perform anymore. I'm not trying to appease, perform.
I'm just simply resting. In the perfection of Jesus, and I'm trying to shall shall I sin that grace may abound? God forbid, Romans 6:1. But I want to be a disciple, I don't want to, I want to live from my DNA has changed, and I've been born again, you know. And that's the thing that I want not only you to know, because you've been very kind to me, and we've had some great talks in the past.
And but that all people will have that same confidence so we can continue this. Another time, you know, maybe you'd be willing to talk with us again. And uh, but does have I been fair to these three questions to you? I'm not gonna edit this out or take anything away from it. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna maybe Yeah, you you have been fair and I appreciate that.
Yeah. And I I think that uh it's opened my eyes a little bit about uh the concept of when a person says ask the question, Have you been saved?
So I see the point of view. Excellent.
Well, hey, you've been listening to Passion for Christ today, and I want to thank you for joining us, and I want to thank Lee for being our guest. And so with that, we will have to sign off for today, but we'll see you again on another edition of Passion for Christ. Before we sign off for today, please know that all of us here at Utah Partnerships for Christ appreciate your prayers and support. We are also available to do Zoom call workshops or personal coaching on reaching Mormons for Christ. Contact us today at upfc.org.
That's upfc.org. Thanks so much for joining us on another edition of Passion for Christ.
