Why We Study Theology

Your right and him and I will fireplace this up so the brightness podcast Matthew and I are here to have a discussion just between the two of us on why we study theology why we think it's important what we've learned from it, both when we were Latter Day Saints and since we become Christians. And so we figured be good to just kinda get together to do more of a light conversational episode. So when I will try not to dig too heavily into the deep theology today just cannot talk about what's important to us and about studying theology and will reflect what we gain from it. So Matthew quick question for you as Latter Day Saints. What was your first introduction to systematic theology.

Tell me about that – so we so Isaiah winners, returning back to church like I went back in activity in teenagers cycling back in the nest was interested in church. I started reading books started reading Talmage like is Jesus Christ in the Rockies works and so but when I first started my rillettes react reactivation. I guess you could say no church. My bishop give me a free copy after phase. And so that's small little booklet that has set topical index of topics enough medical order for me to see so that was kind of first, I think introduction to systematic text. I guess you could say and when we when I say systematic theology or systematic text to its Christian term is referring to Text or lecture or book that tries to take all aspects of belief and make it into coherent cohesive sort of narrative so like when you read the Bible is not a systematic theology text because it teaches a lot about God in creation and that's where we derived Chris is a sort of driver beliefs but is not written as if it were a suspect yelled text so that the job of system petitions is to take the Bible and then take all of the teachings of the Bible and placed together in a coherent fashion suspect psychologist and so other other examples that I read along with the where a Mormon doctrine, and that that's when I spent a lot of time reading and close those two are the primary ones I read. I was starting to back of the church in an later on. Isaac became outboard missionary for my ward serve a mission. I also read a lot of the gospel principles because our help teach that class gospel principles is kind of the manually used for teaching a course for new members and investigators work wanting to join the church, or just visitors were visiting the church and talks fell on the basic doctrines like Christ atonement, faith, repentance, baptism of the primary doctrines of the church.

So those are the three main ones I dealt with original good guy was trying to remember when true faith came out of seems like it was closer to when the end of my time in the LDS church. I left in 2010. Looks like a copyright on to the faith was 2004, but it seems like it was a few years after that.

Maybe that it started to be passed around pretty extensively and my area, maybe around 2006 seven is when I first became aware of and it is certainly a smaller topical approach to the obvious. Remember when it came out there were there was quite a bit astir about the fact that it treated some previously important LDS doctrines in a way that may be made to seem like some things were shifting so maybe it didn't it didn't treat becoming like God as deeply as say Osama Conkey would have been in Mormon doctrine, which was another of the kind of systematic text that I was familiar with when I was a teenager.

Mormon doctrine was was quoted a lot in Sacramento. Somebody was giving a talk and they work wanting to support something that they were staying with with a theologian. A lot of times you hear them say Osama Conkey wrote in Mormon doctrine… And then they will quote from them so was very much a well-regarded text and I know it was well-regarded in the generations before the generation before mine as well. My my mom had a copy and she referenced it often. When she was on her mission in the 19 late 1960s in Germany and by the time I got to my mission and connect after it was starting to be deemphasized. Some of the things that he wrote in there, they become less popular or less appealing to some Latter Day Saints and so it was it was kind of being deemphasized and eventually was pulled from being sold does or a book, but Mormon doctrine was one that I really referenced a lot.

Especially later in my mission but I really didn't dig into it till later in my mission that probably the first systematic approach to her mother. Probably the first systematic approach to Mormon doctrine that I encountered was the lectures on faith. I was given a hardback copy of that as a gift from my stake president. When I graduated seminary as a senior in high school, went up to the pulpit to shake his hand and did our seminary diploma.

He gave us a copy that had our names embossed on the on the front of it. I still have a copy of to go with me on my mission.

It's all highlighted marked up with notes but that's a that's definitely a systematic approach to LDS teaching from almost the earliest years and it was a tax that was used in the Kirtland Temple to teach the school of the prophets. So was it was used to teach some of Joseph Smith's earliest and closest followers. What LDS doctrine was at the time and I know that there's some speculation by some Latter Day Saints scholars and historians that he may not of been involved is heavily in the writing of it as was previously thought that it may have been written by Cindy Rigdon or by Sydney written and some others together, but in any case, it was prepared as a as a systematic theology to teach the school of the prophets, and so yeah anything you want to touch on their you know I also study a little bit of the electrical faith. There were some interesting tidbits in there that I remember reading*20 inch activity reactivity back in the church, one which was, it says that there were two members of the Godhead and that those members were the father and the son. The father was a personage of glory the sun is a personage of Tabernacle summaries that always stuck with me because I didn't set it there are three personages in the Godhead, which is what the artist or just hot definitively leases Dean Seaburg 138. Think about the father is a personage of flesh and bone.

The son also that the Spirit does not have a flood body flesh and bone and and Joe Smith reiterated that lectures outside but yeah so that was interesting because it says they're going to like to personages in the Godhead, so I think maybe that's one big reason why they're not sure just because it did have such a different view of Godhead on my speculation about yet, lectures on faith is also something I dabbled into as well as teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith was earlier systematic text, but it was something that had a lot of teachings and it a lot of fundamental teachings of Joseph Smith himself that are really reiterated today so I think I think those are probably the major wants. I generally think of many other systematic theologies same Jews you let me think about that for a minute.

None that I've really encountered.

I know there's a there's a book that's pretty popular by BH Roberts called the way the truth and the life I think is what is called. Not sure because I haven't read much and it not sure if that's more of a systematic approach what that is sky consider his magnum opus, but I'm not sure for systematics was the other apostle who was from Europe that was really prolific in writing and in the early 20th century determines how mature his name, not Talmage, but the articles of faith by Talmage might be considered a sort of systematic approach. I deftly studied out of my mission. Man I wish I could remember the other gentleman, but he has some some books of theology, but I'm not sure if there considered systematics either, but he was he was another pretty prominent theologian in the early 20th century, alongside Talmage today. Maybe he does the exploring Mormon thought series and I know that is new, look it up think it is a Ostler yeah Blake T. Ostler exploring Mormon thought the attributes of God is volume 1.

The problems of theism and the love of something is going to bind careers of God and God's going for is God's plan to kill evil CF. I'd say probably today Blake Ostler's series of books is is really the one I see Latter Day Saints reference most often it's kind of a systematic approach is also is also the effect organism, but I don't know how often they would really reference that is like a systematic theology book by the church. That's I've always heard a reference does like scholars say about the church and the no reference that book because it is not technically officially by the church or even people inside the church. So I think that could be made to consider my best Mormon systematic theology yeah Johnny was so was the other apostle that I was thinking of remember the name of his book find it going.

Cultures of the scientists, but I think his rational theology as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ. Later, since I think that's his is one that might be considered systematics.

I also thought about the grand Richardson was is working on her, but I think that's not really a systematic book smart, like a know how you would describe it really more like a narrative style type book yeah yeah that's true, would question the when you were studying through you mentioned the different view of God and the lectures on Faith when you were studying through that was that hard for you to understand yeah was it was can a difficult language being a little bit dry elements not really modernized so he has to remember Reagan being used, which is why the question and answer section at the end of the process to be. That's what really boiled it down like okay how many people are in the God you is like a strange, but I can't just chalked it up to you know we Latter Day Saints believed in line upon line, precept, such as Figure, but may be Joseph Smith's concept of God. Father God son was the most developed and over time it was always kind of learn more about just how I understood it that makes sense. I do remember being in the first day of my mission and Pulling that out. We go to the branch house for mutual activities and I was I was a gratis. I was trying not to Amsterdam and Mary were some elders who were in their last weeks of their mission and they were kinda about once a given up that they were more willing to run around and play in the physical with with the girls and in sports and stuff.

During most mutual nights than I was. Time so I've I would grab a book and sit in the in the branch house and breathing remember reading the lectures on faith and being confused by how many members are there that I had to wait so yeah ask you this, when you were a latter-day St. was there with her aspects of LDS theology that appeal to you back in the day. If so, what were they. I just like concept, particularly of eternal progression that seems interesting. It seems so different from how Christians talk about it something I didn't really know what is going up in the church.

This idea that there's this universe full of gods and God the father comes from this line of God. For in something we don't really talk about. We talked a lot about our talks about how God gave us plan you know. And Jesus volunteered to be the Savior and Lucifer also volunteered to be the Savior, but everyone to be saved under his plan so there's a lot of there's a lot of that teaching church in general conference. There wasn't a lot of focus. I think this like eternal procession of God's going back to eternity and that you know we become gods to buy, you know, by following the Star gospel and received ordinances everything so that like learning all that is fascinating and just starting out. Also, a lot of the moral issues that I was different and interesting and sometimes us, grandma sure if I quite agree with that.

My little rebellious spirit. Are you taking hold, but I like our member in Mormon doctrine resort. Augie said that that drinking cola drinks is against the spirit not the letter, but against the spirit of the word of wisdom is like ICD-9 I go to church events that go all the time.

You stay and then years ago. From this point on, the church came out officially said that Dr. Pepper and Diet Coke. So the other and there was quite a few issues that must this little tidbit you would get from those dispensed writings, the teachings of the problems is that he talked about is a mention of previous episodes. He talked about when you're baptized your blood literally changes the Israelite blood if you're not already Israelite sent or either you give an anecdote about how somebody had been given a calling to serve an area they claim that they saw a vision so I guess it was a time period of time or people claim Hellas visions incentive to shooting them down and staying on the Joseph Smith asked him okay so what was a vision like a person said angels came and told me to flee and go to this location said okay what do they look like they said well they had blonde hair and to do this and just dismiss it while you can know that they're not angels because a told you to flee your calling that God and are given so he can set up this idea that if Goddard has revealed something back to not do it, which I think is problematic for later history, but will allow the left. Later and then the second thing is, he said that you know that there were not God because he had blonde hair, the idea being the Angels always have white hair and always found that really fast and so like sometimes you'll see in LDS publications like artist rendition were angels do have blonde hair.

I got think the restoration of the priesthood. Any of you look at that painting. They all have different colored hair that I was kind about me as I read the problems of the white chair, so yeah, I like reading on the title tidbit that stuff you learn about constant Sunday school is like little not not like Gnostic knowledge, but like little interesting thoughts and ideas in our stomach was growing. My understanding of the of the of the church and its teachings sets, school about you. What were the things that you must, yeah, I think since I was coming up the LDS church. There was it was an interesting time in the late leaving mid to late 1970s there was kind of a renewed interest from evangelical Christians to witness Latter Day Saints and in I guess you have also the tanners, having converted to Christianity and doing the work that they were doing during that time, and the LDS church in many ways began reacting to that. Maybe negative press the came with bad or negative perceptions that came with that you know you have the and Decker in the God makers in that timeframe as well so you very much for the environment I was growing up, and in Utah. The time was one in which Latter Day Saints were they wanted to say were Christians to and maybe a little bit differently than the now where the messages, like were Christians to just like you back that it was just for Christians to read in the room. I believe some things are different and so the thing that appeal to me growing up in that that time was more of a focus on on Jesus as Savior and I'd I kind of my my interaction with the LDS church when I was young even though I heard like ribbon award in the solid valley where people did feel comfortable and when were allowed to speak their mind from the pulpit and in the talks that they gave so I did hear a lot of things that you may not here today spoken from the pulpit doctrines taught from the pulpit that you might not here today that really what was important to me was was this idea of Christ the Savior, and that's kinda what I what I latched onto you as a teenager and as I as I got older and went on my mission and started studying through the lecture for extending through the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Mormon doctrine, some of the other texts we mentioned. It was sort of like learning my religion in a way that things things about my religion that I might've heard in tidbits like I mentioned in an talks here and there, but I never really had dug into you to deeply myself, and so was like learning the secret stuff.

I guess the stuff that's not really talked about what some of it was kind of kind of shocking and ends wasn't sure what to do with enough you will talk about the low later but yet I think I think were really stuck with me was was the idea of Christ the Savior. So as Latter Day Saints. Would you say that there was an emphasis placed on studying systematic theology was deemphasized or whatever your answer is why do you think that is think it was.

I think there was kind of this encouragement to understand basics the very fundamentals of the fate and then there was kind of a not not not trying to dissuade people from studying deeper or or read other books, you know like there's some gospel principles its skull gospel doctrine by Joseph F. Smith hitting gospel doctrine or gospel something.

It's a book that I had and it had a lot of interesting things in it but they would always cut a preface by saying you read out of these books, remember that not all that is" official doctrine so you and I was in the church there is this idea that there are things artificially from the church must in the other. You can that's okay to read and believe. But things but even writings from the church prophets and apostles was not official so it wasn't that I don't think there's really a whole lot of emphasis on making three studies, things they were available and I was always expecting to stuff check those books that are about that but there is more of an emphasis on reading and listening to the modern prophets so the in Zions and general conference addresses and the church manuals those were kind of what was really emphasizing was a bit emphasizing whatsoever to read any of his books.

They always were, where cost is much more a doctor like you said parts of it was revised twice at least letting the third revision is my head and so everybody would there be times where someone would say well yeah it's goodbye say I cost you once about it. Same thing with like, especially Kimball's radical forgiveness and say well it's good but read the first to last chapter. First, that's what my bishop time told so yeah I have it said that the abscess was more in modern prophets say rather in the book of Mormon.

Of course, like having a test that special is sized so it wasn't discouraged by street design is, like, make sure you know these first and then if you have any time left over get yeah I think generally I agree with what you said. From my perspective, there was a little bit of the deemphasis to remember hearing hearing sentiments like you know studying theology or some of the deeper doctrines is like can be like trusting in the arm of flesh, because like you were saying it was kind of always a reminder that not everything within books written even by general authorities is considered church doctrine and so that's kind of warnings to not trust me on the flash and it also warnings you know of about the teachings of man mingled with Scripture.

Those mornings were more I think made with reference to broader Christian theology than than to Mormon theology, but deftly also toward some of those kind of folk doctrines that crop up three neophytes came as Bigfoot. Those kind of things that can creep up in the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, or other sources that still pops up in a group steers I'll be like scanning bugs, Bigfoot and LDS mold by Benedict.

Now, we never talked to Mormonism like well minimum reading that accounting's radical forgiveness so me.

I was never official clinical doctrine, but it's like it's completely without merit.

The city so so what about is a Christian what was introduction to Christian systematic theology or Christian theology in general.

So when I first started kind of transitioning. I didn't really have a systematic theology text but I did a lot of was like I would but I would read commentaries on the Bible and so for particular passages like prescriptions 15 I wanted to know.

Okay, what's a Christian view of baptism of the dead is passed out. So I would kind of read commentaries.

In that sense I guess kind of read it to a systematic way also bought legionnaire has Reformation study Bible will have little vignettes throughout the Bible that talk about different topics like creation and our God or or glory and signification things like that. So, read those little vignettes I would learn that way but primarily when I spent a lot of time doing this evening and when I was trying to figure out what what kind of use I wanted to hold her trying to understand the Bible. I was working as an intern in Chicago are just outside Chicago lab there and I was listening to a lot of RC Sproles foundation series because at the time. It's totally free and frontloaded times does it all in equal.

I think it was because of the 2017 no Reformation 500 year whatever corner near Varner 1515 70 is like this every anniversary of Martin Luther and 95 theses so as free as I listened to those in and it's like 30 or 40 part series where he goes through a bunch different topics. As I listen to that was working south probably the one right at the most systematic study is losing RC Sproul out and I really connected with the way he taught and he really holds the Scriptures and understood what he understood of the Bible and how you would also separate what is Christian orthodoxy was the lowest was the historical understanding of something and that he would tend to say what is what I maybe how I understand the possibilities. I like that to because it allowed me to say okay here's what's the general consensus consensus on this but maybe you're smart because it departs so that's that's what I write. When I was first transitioning. Yeah, I remember listening to Darcy's phone number listening to him on the radio as I make my commute when when Angela and I were first married, some commuting from northern Kentucky into Cincinnati and in listening RC scroll and he would do his whole blackboard thing and you could hear him where where his teaching is writing up whatever he was writing but he definitely didn't did his teachings in a systematic kind away subs come to my first introductions to Christian systematic theology and then when I left. Like you, I did a lot of reading and commentaries, you know, Mike, my initial step was to study through the Bible and I have book called through the I had a book called explore the book by a Baptist writer. Here's my thinking was Australian but huge book and I would study is that the study through the Bible and then once I got into Christian seminaries and I took some general theology classes of men courses as well on document salvation is a grace was one course and then doctrine of God so took some more, focused, systematic theology courses but the text that I finished some the text that I initially started to work by Jack Cottrell. He was one of the theology of professors there at the University I went to, and he has been called the faith once for all Bible doctrine for today and that attempts to be a systematic theology, but it also attempts to bring in biblical theology. In some ways been in that you know systematic should flow from the Bible, not from philosophy or any other kind of thing that being one of the concerns but as mentioned earlier, mingling with the teachers and men mingled with Scripture.

Was this kind of a concern. I think the comes out of the broader restoration movement, and you gotta find out and monitor same thought as well that Jack Cottrell also had a for his doctrine of God course. He had three different books that he had written God the Creator God the ruler and God the Redeemer. All were about 340 pages and very, very much systematic theologies on the doctrine of God and since those down to one volume that cover, covers all three topics in a shorter way. He has a book called set free.

What the Bible says about grace and that's kind of his systematic theology on on the doctrines of grace and salvation so so to draw those and they were very helpful.

Since then I've gotten some systematic theologies by some Calvinists, some reform people so I can make sure I'm reading and intaking not just thinkers and writers for my own tradition, but from others well and comparing those with with what the Bible says so I've got John Gruden's systematic theology I have lingered sorry they are going to and then I've also got a systematic theology by a Catholic and Eastern Orthodox because I wanted to get their perspectives look at their perspectives on things as well turn think you John frame is a some familiar laser form get that guy has as well, so I've been curious to find non-Calvinists systematic theology is because that's going to Calvinists the cow's clan. I guess you call us you know you gotta stick to Calvin in his institutes or you know, maybe Spurgeon's sermons or I really like John Gill his body divinity.

That's really awesome some people can accused them of hyper- Calvinism.

I really run across anything that sounded hyper Thomas. He seemed pretty solid – Spurgeon also kind of gave stamp of approval at John Gill's commentaries and efforts of people get really upset about lingered on midnight. There's a canonical controversy about the transport patients on the second way beyond the scope of this episode, but people are saying it's been on heretical or heterodox, but I think the most party at his suspect, else solid and bark off as early solid choice of reference. I read his parts of his bit and high Javert Hodges a really good one. Personally, but I also bought the apartment combating's reform dogmatics solid, does a really good summary of simultaneously the reformed Lutheran and Catholic streams of tradition and how they would read something I want times, including the Trinity, you miss Lisa Gaddy all agree on the doctrine of divine simplicity we got a simple will not composed of body parts, passions is really cool to kinda see his view on how he takes a more historical understanding of systematic theology. Still, systematic job tax EA includes why history biases. I like that a lot.

That's good. Cottrell's texts are like that as well. She brings in writers from other traditions and engages with them as is working through his systematic theology so she held it especially has a member in his book set free will apply also about grace.

She does that. Words like his with the Roman Catholic position as an "it you know from the catechism or wherever he's getting at, and then he'll also bring in reformed thinkers and posthearing thinkers in and interact with with what they're saying on various Bible texts. So that was very helpful to me as I was studying through that so I was thinking to lick before I left the LDS church. I picked up book called Christian theology, and introduction by Alister McGrath and started studying through that is not really it's not a systematic theology book per se is more about historical theology book, but… It was really fascinating to me because I got to see the strains of thought that would lead to something like Mormonism right got to see the strains of thought, weaving their way through Christian history that would that would end up resulting in someone like Joseph Smith thinking the way that he thinks so. As interesting as talk about historical theology really great to.

I think there's another one. This kind of use as a textbook along with the grooms, Greg Allison is historical theology bouquet about copy that was I read that because I was debating on Michael. The different views of baptism, and, you know, some groups still give you the laying on of hands the Holy Ghost is already dancing like an early church that is there's different views on suffering of the real presence and supper. So yeah it's cool to look at it in but the systematic way and also historical way. See ads very valuable to do. Yeah so yours out about the eternal generation sign when Gruden and I kind of being far beyond the scope so big it leads well in the next question. Those studying theology just missed turning him is studying theology just getting hung up on things we think differently can be but I don't think it's just getting caught. I think a lot of the doctrines that can cause division are secondary doctrines so that would be doctors that are not essential to the face so essential to the faith to be like, you know, understanding God is only one God and that he's revealed in father-son spirit as three distinct inseparable persons coequal, coeternal also the sacraments of the church you think that is essential to have the sacraments were suffered baptism specific views concerning those can have differences and if people want to know more about the settlers versus secondary and tertiary doctrines of our interview with Howard on that so yeah we did get hung up a lot, secondary, tertiary doctrines like this bring up eschatology, which is the study of the world and last final things and Christians will just start throwing tomatoes and heads of lettuce at each other.

Yeah so it's it's not entirely nitpicky things. I think a lot is and in terms of like self.

So for example eternal – some people are worried that that could lead to a form of subordination is him like the Arian controversy where areas in the fourth century was saying that the sons of Christ was he. He did not always eternally exist.

He's he believed that he was God or a god subordinate to the father sees, lesser being of a different substance. The father and so some people think that this modern idea of eternal generation son could lead to that kind of controversy, and so there's there's certainly times where I think that studying these things out is important and I had a Nonno. I've always been on the fence on this eternal generation son topic. I don't know if it's how I feel about it. There's been no official counsel declaring heresy either. So I think but I think it's deftly important to study out the most important issues and have those cassettes understood correctly, a biblical perspective and then and sometimes we do get upset over like eschatology, you know like prima Larry premillennialists are supposed millennialist millennialist versus and flat Syrian super labs Arian it's a topic that also argued about so I can and can't get into the realm of things and I think we should do that with differing spirit of charity spirit of love and trying to cherish God. It is truth rather than using as a bludgeon to be people had with and I think unfortunately allowed Latter Day Saints. Yes, see evangelicals being so passionate about theology and they see us debating between trying to see all see you long but it's it's it's kind of like you know when you see a bunch of brothers fighting in the court and in the yard. You know like wrestling with charts. Ali is uneven brothers look at your final time. You know, but it's understood at the end of the day. You know I just tell her off that you're still brothers and so is Chris is restarting as each other's brothers despite the doctor may even have very strong agreements on topics like baptism, so instead I think understood in a proper way of context. These kind of debates and disagreements are not only good. I think necessary sets. Yeah, I think you're right and I think they're good for the reason I ask him talk about before as well with when I started to McGrath's Christian theology and introduction I said I was able to see Kenneth some of the currents of thought that flowed in and out of Christian theology and and were brought up by certain writers at certain times without studying that you really are left with the impression that Joseph Smith arrived on the scene and tossed some of the things that he taught and that they had never been taught before, never been discussed before and that's very much not the case when you actually stand some of the things that were taught in the past four or or were you even if not top were part of Christian discussion and be charged to know other groups that they were some of the Christian apologists were interacting with like the Gnostics, like the Manichaeans, and so it's is very much important to have that that base of understanding. So you're not left just thinking you know who Joseph Smith got everything directly from above and and you know was it was an empty vessel that that didn't have a couple of millennia almost of Christian thought that he had had the ability to understand and talk with others about think sometimes there's this. I like to call it the third country bumpkin motif that the people do with Joe Smith where it's like you know he was a farm boy. How would tell you think you would've known all this kind of stuff and it's like you know we live in a world where we have the Internet back then they had books and they had discussion and they had no sermons that they heard and you know pastors are a lot of times very very learned man, even back then they studied they would. They read and so he he had the ability to hear of things and know of things that sometimes with like to think maybe she didn't because he was a farm boy.

I don't think he was unlearned and ends on dogma sometimes. Some people try to make him out to be, think that's pretty evident from his own writings and like you said it's talked about it, we we kind of separated by 100 years from Joseph Smith's childhood.

Back then, the US was Barry the whole culture is like saturated Christianity is. Or maybe you did have a lot of different groups allow different ideas, but it was not Collins the marketplace or the commenting on the Commons or just walk around town if you will be talking about ideas or different things of the Bible and sharing is caring about different groups and such and such creatures as always, I just part of the fabric of society.

Louise FTE messed up so that we would talk talk in a debate about theology like you know like you can go to the barbershop today and you will vigorously talk about survivor or you know American Idol or whatever TV show is popular these days, and someone will chip in about all yeah yeah is greater in all sports team sports team lost again asking how theology was back then is a common thing people talked about before, where understanding of the Bible and they understood that the mound builder knows math are in on the lost tribes potentially being the ancestors of the Native American accommodate talked about so yeah I agree that it is important to have this historical understanding of theology and to see Wyatt why groups don't just come up out of nowhere usually derive their doctrine from the cable for them or they synergize to use different groups to form their own theology. That's sometimes people that I discussed Mormonism online with get a little frustrated with me because I often make a suggestion in a people blast me you know where you think Joseph got this idea, if it didn't come from Revelation you know this that or the other idea, whatever were discussing and and I'll often say will know his family. His father and his brother Joseph Senior and Hiram were both Mason's Freemasons and like you.

Also, what doesn't come from Freemasonry to fight in Freemasonry, as it will even if you can't find a specific thing as part of Freemasonry teachings and more and practice that's not all.

Freemasonry's II subscribes to the Freemason podcast a few years ago and listens to it quite extensively to try to understand some things about Freemasonry and what I learned one of the things I learned from that is that part of Freemasonry part of the culture of Freemasonry is to study everything. The esoteric and they have publications that they produce and read and talk about them in meetings that cover topics from Atlantis to biblical studies to what whatever interests a particular Mason to to write about something they will know publishing talk talk about and read and then read papers in our meetings, and so is not is not surprising to me that Smith would be aware of, say, Emmanuel Swedenborg through maybe you know his father, his brother encountering those types of ideas through free Freemasonry so I think letter is interested understand what Freemasonry has. It's not just a fraternal order. It's it's very much this idea that you're free to learn write anything you can and then you study anything you want to him and that's that's kind of a current that flows through Freemasonry that that I think impacted Joseph Smith as well.

In his lifetime, listening to our brightness contrast from Micon to walk with Jesus when he is really measurement born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ base and teaching the name of our podcast. Our brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own comes to us from without. Thus, our brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son give conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.

Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around Matthew what insights have you had as you studied theology what what new things we learned that that have blown your mind for what things have you learned that have helped you during times of struggle in the very beginning so Vasquez is just the doctrine of the Trinity has been something that I always just just latched on to found it so fascinating you. I don't know what I think is almost like a latter-day St. I wanted to be able say I believe in one God and it's like when you say that as latter-day state*as well. You know I believe in one God the father and his son Jesus Christ goes or I was dabbling one Godhead, but I could never really just say flat out.

I believe in God. No other gods exist like him none before and after eating I could say that.

So that was my transition.

Was I was reading White's letter storm elder and he focuses on daddy talks passage Isaiah chapter 43 is of Windows 10 where he talks about you know what when it says the word God is Elohim, and he says I the Lord know the Lord is the term for Yahweh or Jehovah saying there's no gods there's no Elohim before or after Jehovah like that when I just consider that text that blew my mind. Time is like yeah okay so is already saying I believe. I believe that Elohim is the father of Jesus, Jehovah, that he organized his spirit intelligence into a spirit body and Jesus attained God, but according this Texas desert. There's no gods is no Elohim before or after. So how does that that doesn't make any sense to you and I and I wrestle about for so long and I was one of the checks. I think the God used heart face and as I was one thing that's that stuck with me in this idea like okay there's only one God.

This idea God stretching back to eternity 9004 that's S is only one God, and I think at first, there is maybe a little bit disappointing but you know like changing our shifting my ideas, the more I thought about in the simplicity of there's only one God and he's everywhere is all-powerful, ever-changing's never familiarize yeah God is not like at all and that's that's an amazing thing. That's a wonderful thing and it always gives me new things to think about how amazing a different God is and yet he still shows love to us, and so that alone, one thing I really latched onto and then when you think about the Trinity and the amount father is just as much God is the spirit as as the sun is nice.

I like the father is a greater gods son is a lesser God in the spirit is another God tag longer all God and pray pray to God to worship God, and you should wish to pray to the father or to the start spirit is just that Scripture Christ instructed us to pray to the father and his name through the power of the Holy Spirit. And that's kind of a standard is nothing the stated can't pray to the Lord Jesus, and as I was attending a church that now member of their were there are couple hymns are no learn they are trained to the Holy Spirit about his loss and got scared me or urge me a little bit trying to him but then I really thought about unlikely Scott you know I can't. I pray to God is the same God is not a separate God.

So it took a lot of time to work as a sign saying also weird but it was exciting to know that I can just pray the Lord Jesus so I can have a personal relationship with Jesus I could talk to Jesus is not to just be you talking you know to the father which is not a bad thing at all you can you can actually pray to Christ. Thank him direct for what he's done for.

And so those are things that just blew my mind and there's a lot of other things to you are really beginning in St. Thomas Aquinas is summa theology AR recently because of scatter controversy to reform community about the doctrine of divine simplicity. This idea that God is not most, of body, arms bodies, legs or other complex parts company parts with a physical or metaphysical going on like his attributes are. He's like a postapartheid that simple. And he's not Pat and he does every passions which means that he has emotions but he is his emotions don't change moments, like ours to know God he's constant simple and the more I think about divine simplicity more makes sense that there's a single God, united in essence is the same from eternity to eternity and we can trust them because that stuck a change tomorrow.

He's knocking to be greater tomorrow Lester yesterday, but I love the scene of God is always progressing substance, but God is always all-powerful. He is always perfect and we can always trust and so those are things I think there was to come in mind what was my minor or what, but I really value Christian theology about you Paul after my long my long diatribe call that is good that's good. Yeah, I had a few so studying through Dr. Cott, Dr. compost text on grace and Micah, discussed earlier.

She compares how Roman Catholics view certain passages, how Calvinist to certain passages, how non-Calvinist reformed folks view certain passages, Lutherans and and and also you know in places where it's appropriate interacts with latter-day St. thought as well as he's aware of it were the things I really appreciate about Dr. Cottrell and I think that I may have a different, maybe a little bit different take on them and some I think within latter-day St. faith think some people viewed Bruce R. McConkie is kind of a hardliner. Maybe because of his seven deadly heresies speech that he did BYU and then Dr. Cottrell's is viewed in that way. I think by some at least that was my impression as I heard so my fellow students talk about him when he was around. But having taken classes with him and knowing that his history of having attended Princeton theological seminary. He made a conscious decision to go there is someone from the restoration movement because there are some significant theological areas of disagreement between the Reformation must the American restoration movement and and and Calvinist reformed thoughts and so she made a conscious decision to go and study with those who were quote unquote the enemy you know like your standards it's brothers were brothers. Write and edit what I what I really appreciate about him as he treats a family and in his texts even though he may stridently stridently disagree when he taught us in class.

She presented the best reformed thinkers and he interacted with their thought in ways that were charitable. He didn't seek to misrepresent it, but he disappears with peers what they teach is where I disagree with that and I appreciate about about them. So studying through his doctrines of grace was very helpful to me in that regard to get clear on where the differences lie and really understand the teaching of salvation by grace through faith in the area that you're even going back to my my days when I was still in the LDS church. I've written about him and when my articles on beggars bread and is also published on from water to wine.org there was a period of time where my wife and I were going through had been through a miscarriage is very difficult time for us as a couple.

That's, you know, miscarriage one of the events that is very challenging to a marriage and so we had been through that and I went to a gathering of an online discussion group that that we kind of formed with with my other latter-day Saints and decided we would get together in person so exiting.

I went to the scattering and we were doing was called the clearness committee, which is a quicker approach to getting getting clear on on something that you thinking about something that you're worried about trying to pondering trying to figure out so I had now decided I would go through this clearness committee and then talk about the struggles I was having inking about this miscarriage and a natural evil and all of that kind of stuff that comes with all the theological thoughts that come with a loss like that and I remember one of the participants asking some pretty pointed questions and they got the idea of the clearness committee is to just ask you questions they don't provide commentary and you you just answer the questions and posted the question. You get clarity and this one guy asked me some pretty pointed questions one of which was gone kill your baby and I remember really struggling with that question and my answer and kind of stumbling through my answer because on the one hand, if God is sovereign. The nursing implications. There for that for the answer that question.

So as I've is a gun further along and in my life as a Christian and I've studied texts, and through the Bible on the sovereignty of God where the answer to that question for me in the past might have been one where I would be tempted to be angry at a God who is sovereign.

Now it's comforting to know that God is sovereign in all things and I would've answered that way 17 years ago, but that I had the clearness committee would answer that way then, but I do now, so just studying theology is help me through some difficult times ethic you for sharing that.

That's something that I've always thought about tears because Cal is sovereign but is something our pastors constant gas casino in prokaryotes talk about Sgt. God is gold everything but one time when hard times really get us. We still going to believe that no or are you going to follow Job's friends kind of told alloy was your fault that this was before Muir or his wife were she said while just curse God and die.

Yeah. So that's great that that study could have helped you through kind of retinal understanding that Charlie dumped her. Thank you for that I am at. I can't really stand on really difficult situations.

Up to that extent, but definitely there's times where you know where something happened like an emergency happens and I was as first worried about anomic like I can't doing the about it so nice. I was like well as well as moments of his trust God like it's hard, but he's got to do it and you know and in those times he got filters. I was grateful for that. Yeah it's the end I think definitely theology is is supposed to inform how you worship God, live your life because otherwise if we just talk about God on Sunday and then come home and then you know you live your life like HES and it's getting on sick. What's the point that I came across a statement years ago and I can't. I can't put my fingers on who said it was a it was a Christian theologian, I don't know if it was Aquinas were. You might've said it first worker was just a way that it was presented. It ultimately goes back to the teaching in Philippians, but the idea is that right thinking leads to right living and that that's kind of the basis for theology and so is the close I think was just as kind to give some advice to her listeners on studying theology so that that would kinda be my first one. This is to say that the right thinking leads to right living and met that flows throughout any theological topic that you are studying the doctrine of God or the doctrine of Christ or the doctrine of salvation by grace right thinking leads to right living what you think about no what that what applications the house for the doctrine of God. It's no rightly understanding who God is in God's nature leads to a right form of worship of God, not rightly understanding who God is in his nature can lead you to to write mode of worship for God worship of God. The other Bit of advice that I would give is, be charitable, you know, we see a lot of times Latter Day Saints I saw you earlier today, latter-day St. posting about the Trinity and you know there are a lot of misunderstandings of the Trinity know, like how can you have read beings who are all 100% God, you know misunderstanding of what it will restate what Christians are saying when were same at each person of the Trinity is fully God without saying that each person of the Trinity is 100% God city of 300% didn't know, but things like that that are just very basic misunderstandings and what I what I mean when I say be charitable with with that kind of thing is don't don't don't buy into those knee-jerk reactions and thoughts on what your dialogue partner is saying really try to understand what they're saying Latter Day Saints ask that of us as Christians and it's and it's something that did. Even we is X Latter Day Saints need to be cognizant of because we don't want to fall into misrepresenting latter-day St. teaching either, so be charitable and then trying to understand what you dialogue partner is saying and and you don't understand it, to the best of your ability and really desire to understand us. We or not misrepresenting what is being said Matthew about you, what, what advice would you have first off, I followed and attacked. Document the threat that I participated with a certain Latter Day Saints which downtime in which group regarding the highest assignment on my feet I muster which group was an it's it's it's someone that I think it was a thread you're involved in accident you.

You commented on on it am not attacking you. I'm just I find your response to the gentleman was was appropriate because he is, some of the comes back to those kinda low hanging fruit attacks on the Trinity often and and and often looks uninformed. As a result. So yeah, and I was just joking but now with with certain people.

When he when it's difficult when they make the same strawman arguments over and over and over any correct them in patients and in love and they come back with the same strawman arguments over and over and over again and so sometimes I just have to say we've how many dozens of conversations of analyst Christians and use the same strawman. And like I don't know how we can explain to you any better.

In no event will try and starts telling a try to point that my blood work. If you want to learn work here, but if you want to give John the same strawman law in all. I don't see the point. So many that there are some people who will be receptive to that there are some people who will see what you say on the megastar the same conversation. Another group so there's just people yeah yeah for sure and it's it's difficult is that sometimes sometimes I think some people need to hear that because you know you need to be called out on doing some thing we should be doing or being disrespectful or like you said earliest ask us to be respectful of them in their beliefs and to use the correct terminology and to read what they're saying. And a lot of times that same courtesy is not returned.

I think it's right and in the right spirit in the right context to say look asking us to do what you're not doing yourself. So let's so I think there is there's a lot of you like it was a passage saying out is innocent as does but is nothing a snake just by the servants and sizes wise as serpents exactly so you know, sometimes sometimes it does require that, but I think someone is honestly trying to stand. I would I would talk them in a much different spirit than subpoena them in that situation, so you really does take dexterity and patience and it takes and plus I think I think when you're studying theology and be careful resources your reading because not all sources are created equal and so nothing that you can't read anything you want, but are certainly sources that may be misleading or may not be solid information trending left upper hand, but I could try to find systematic theology that I could account for gloss overhead that would be bad for you but just be mindful of who the author is what the background is their training and their perspective and understand it you know you might be really enamored with a particular author intellect. I have started reading Aquinas.

I really like the way Spring things be so logical in the way he dismantles arguments against Trinity but the same time.

I have to remember like you know he does a lot of things about his theology that I don't agree with person that's okay we don't have to agree hundred percent with somebody to take what they have to say considerate. Think about critically and then no use in my life and I think our conversation with Winston that really you really talk to about that, why that's important so that's kind of my advice again.

Yeah, I agree with you just doing charity again with the purpose of ultimately glorify God because were not just here to study just to become smarter or show it like all you know I studied patristic studies in our saying studied St. John Damascus or St. John Chrysostom. All the stuff you don't exceed more right you are you restless elect our associates say to make our lives richer as calyx part of her sink vacation being conformed to Christ image and to get his ideas. I may be on how to share the gospel. I have been reading Aquinas thinking maybe you know I've used a lot of arguments from Scripture in the book of Mormon to compare those been thinking maybe this would be a different route to go. Maybe I could take some of arguments that Aquinas is godlike is God finite or Scott is. That's one topic that I made to gain much traction. I'm thinking about topics at dad that could maybe open the door to's discussion so you know if you're into apologetics think about that. Trent trying to trying to think of it first, primarily how it brings you closer Christ glorifies God and then secondarily after that, okay, maybe I can use this to know to defend the faith or I really appreciate what you said about being cognizant of what your when you're studying some of the first advice I was given is or is a new Christian was to be aware of the publishers publishers workbooks that I was reading the authors were about their background and and theological persuasion are so bad now so that I can just attack certain theological persuasion so that I can understand where an altar is coming from you if you understand that someone is writing from a reformed perspective. Then when you get to some of the areas of their book where they're going to discuss some of the middle earth from Scripture and uniquely reformed way, you'll understand better why they're doing that and you can you can can interact with the arguments that they're making in the cost of their presenting in a way that's informed right and another coming from a reformed perspective or another. Coming from a Presbyterian perspective or another coming from American restoration movement perspective that helps to know that so that as you're interacting with their thoughts. You can understand why are they thinking in such a way as it is their position consistent with Scripture as a position.

The most consistent with Scripture, but of the positions are studied. I'm all that's important so our fireflies. It's the end of this conversation.

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