Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick.

I know it's the Matt Slick live. Hope you're having a good day. Hope everything is fine with you. If you want to give me a call, the number is easy to do. 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. Okay.

That'd be good. And, uh, let's see, we've got one person waiting. I just want to let you know that if you want to join in, uh, maybe into some chat, uh, you can do that by going to rumble.com forward slash, uh, Matt Slick live. And if you do that, you can get in there with the chat and a lot of good things.

A lot of good people there. It's a lot of fun. So anyway, if you want to do that, uh, uh, it's easier to do. All right. So let's see, you got this. There we go.

All right. Why don't we just jump on the phone and get to Alan from Virginia. Alan, Alan, welcome.

Uh, welcome. You're on the air. Hey Matt, how's it going? It's going okay.

Hang it in there. Okay. Um, my, my quote, I guess one of my questions is I'm wanting to get more, I want to start understanding manuscripts, codexes, and uh, Hebrew and Greek.

Um, um, what re what resources do you have that would help me get into the process of understanding all three? Um, so I would recommend Bruce Metzger, uh, on the new text of the new Testament. Okay. All right.

Uh, yeah, just do that. And, uh, you can find that there's, uh, uh, I used to have some books, uh, on that stuff, but Metzger's is known Bruce Metzger is known for, uh, analyzing the new Testament texts and it should be pretty good, pretty easy to understand. Okay.

Okay. Is there anything, uh, for, um, like Hebrew that you would recommend, like maybe going to a Jewish church or college course to understand Hebrew? Well, they have free classes online.

If you want to do something like that. Um, and so if you want courses on Hebrew, there are different courses available. Uh, what I would do if I were you, is if you want to learn Hebrew, just look online for a basic intro to Hebrew, you know, low level and just get that low level stuff down because it can get complicated and just, just do it little by little and used to go at the rate that you want and you'll find that there's Greek courses online, Hebrew courses online and you can do it.

You have to learn how to read the alphabet, for example, then you have to know what vowel points are and you read from the right to the left in Hebrew. Then you have to learn about conjugations and how it works and, uh, and finals letters that change in the final form. Just a few things like this. And, and other things and you'll be better, you know. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Which would you say is easier to probably get started? Hebrew or Greek? Well, you know, that's really a subjective preference because, um, I heard in seminary people who do well in Greek don't tend to do well in Hebrew and vice versa.

I did pretty well in Greek and Hebrew beat me up pretty badly. So, but that's not a problem. So, but that's not uncommon. So it just depends.

Greek has advantages Hebrew won't have in that if you learn Greek, you can get to the new Testament quickly. You can, um, start understanding things pretty, pretty quickly. Like, uh, you know, hamartia, you know, is, is, uh, blood. And so hamartiology is a study of, of, uh, of sin because sins of the blood, things like that.

It's kind of a related thing there. Uh, theos means God. So theology, the study of God.

So you can start seeing immediate, uh, help and stuff like that. So we're not so much in Hebrew. Hebrew is just radically different.

But on the other hand, Greek is more complicated than Hebrew and like nouns do what's called declension. So declension is where you're in English, a declension would be something like, um, uh, boy, boy or here, I know, actor, actors, actress, actresses, those are declensions, a noun declines. And so we just have like, for example, actor actors, we have singular and plural. So when we have singular and plural in that form, it's not a big deal. So when we have singular and plural in that form, it's not a big deal.

In Greek, for example, you can have singular and plural, but you can also have gender masculine, feminine, and neuter, and not only masculine, feminine, and neuter and a number it's called either singular or plural, but you also have what's called case nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, optative. And so like the word anthropos, man, you know, get anthropology from that. The anthropos, uh, is, uh, present act, excuse me, it's, um, nominative, masculine, singular.

Anthropoi is a plural, masculine, singular. So you look at a word and one of the things you've got to do in Greek is to parse, to be able to know what structure it is, because this stuff gets interrelated. And so with Greek, you've got to slow down when you're going through it because, and it becomes easy.

I mean, it, it, they're very good, uh, instructions. One thing at a time, just learn this, just learn that. It's like martial arts. This is how you stand.

This is how you, uh, fall. And then you do complicated things when you get more experience. And that's the same thing with, uh, with Greek and Hebrew. Okay.

And Hebrew. Okay. All right.

Gotcha. Um, is there a place for, um, the collect, like for collections of all the codexes and manuscripts online? What a good question. Uh, I believe, I believe there are, um, but you know, I, I'm just not sure. Um, um, that's really good question because, because, uh, you got me thinking about it and I remember, um, I remember seeing something online where they had a lot of manuscripts reproduced. I remember thinking, Oh, that's really cool. But it was a long time ago and I don't know where it was.

So what you could do is just go online and say, uh, just ask, is there a repository of Greek new Testament manuscripts online? Okay. And you could, you can check it out. Yeah. That's what I would do. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. I appreciate the guidance. Okay. Well, I hope that helps.

I hope to. All right. But Greek is interesting. Greek is interesting.

It's an interesting language, but you'll see. Okay. All right. All right.

Thank you, Matt. Okay. Okay. God bless. Okay.

All right. Now let's see. Next longest waiting is Justin from California. Justin, welcome.

You are on the air. Hi Matt. I, uh, I have a question about what church to go to. Um, I'm having an issue. I'm, I would be more reformed Baptist, but I'm having a hard time with, um, finding, um, uh, a reform church that is more loving and friendly. And on the other side, more Armenians are, or more lackadaisical on doctrine.

And it's so it's hard. Like what's, what's better to do more of a biblical church, but they're more indifferent towards you. Yes. That's why I want to find a black Calvinist church. That's my dream because that culture they're open, they're warm.

You can walk inside. They accost you with hugs and love. Oh, I love that. And they're exciting and they, they, they're involved in worship.

I love that. And if they were reformed, then we get the best of both worlds. But you see, churches tend to gather people. It's like this birds of a feather flock together. Well, reformed theology tends to be a little bit more intellectual. So therefore you might gather to yourself in that church, a little more intellectual people where Armenians, it's more about feelings. Uh, I'm exaggerating, but there's a lot of that in there. Uh, and so you might get those kinds of people kind of gradually focusing on that.

So the cross pollination between them is a little bit, um, a little bit more difficult to find. And so the, where I'm at, the reform churches, liturgical hymns, and I'm like, ah, and if I go to Calvary Chapel, it's warm, it's friendly, but there are many, and I'm like, oh man. So, you know, what do you do? Man?

Yeah. I mean, what, what secondary issues could you be willing to compromise on? Cause, um, a lot from my area, like the majority don't have an issue with like women teaching or, you know, Hillsong Bethel music is like their favorite. And, um, and yeah, the reform church, the last one, all hymns, doctrinally sound, you know, expository preaching is the best, but I mean, it's hard to get connected. I can't even join a Bible study. I have to be a member first and, you know, meeting, meeting, meeting the pastors going, Hey, you know, here's my frustration. Here's why I had to leave my last church because of doctrinal issues.

They went against the gospel and you know, they thought Roman Catholics were part of the body and all this, and I had to leave and I'm like, I have no friends. I even broke down and it's kind of like just indifferent, like, well, you know, and you should be a member. So then, you know, um, that's my frustration.

Yeah. And that's another thing that drives me crazy. Well, if you want to be in fellowship with us, you have to become a member of our church and then we'll love you more. That kind of attitude. And I'm like you take that membership thing and you just shove it because no, thank you. If that's what it requires in order for them to be loving and kind and helpful, why would you want to become a member of that? That makes me mad.

It really does. And that's what I like about Calvary Chapel. So Calvary Chapel, you don't have to worry about membership.

You just go and people are open and people are warm. I get fed there more than doing a reform church and I'm reformed. I do. Yeah. Yeah. What about like the Bethel music and all that? Is that something that you can just kind of, um, you know, push yourself through?

Cause it seems to be like a constant thing. Like it's hard for me to join in on that knowing where it's coming from. Yeah. That's another thing is if they play Bethel music, I can't trust them. I can't trust the church.

Yeah. It's simple because they're, they're, uh, letting heretics lead in worship and you know, let's participate in that. It's like, you could ask a pastor, if it was a really great song from a Mormon ward, Mormonism produces great song.

Would you use it as really beautiful melody? Well, of course not. Then why do you do it with Bethel? You know, they have heresies. Why do you do it with Bethel? Oh, because the music's nice and they believe the Trinity.

And so I can't trust a pastor who's going to allow that. Yeah. Well, it seems like your Calvary is different than mine cause I tried them all and they're, they're going that way.

So which way? Like, uh, Oh, with Bethel and all that. And, but you know, I was one thing here too, but when you pointed out and they, they just don't care like, well, it, it sounds nice and everyone likes it. So, um, you know, with that, like I was going to say like a secondary issue, like with, it seems like even reform churches that allowing women to go up and reading the Bible in front of the congregation while being part of that, that leadership. Um, um, is that a secondary issue?

Cause it really does like go, it makes me go against my conscience to sit under that. Okay. Well, if it's your conscience there, uh, then you need to answer that. Now, would I personally, uh, I don't see a woman in a pulpit reading a text being authority over a man, but if it's on a Sunday morning and she's in the pulpit reading scripture, that's too close for my, my comfort. That's too close. Yeah.

I can't see how you could separate that from teaching because you can just read the Bible and you're teaching. That's right. So I have a problem with that too. And if you want to hang on, we've got a break. Okay. All right then.

Okay buddy. God bless. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages with Jeff from South Carolina. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is easy.

877-207-2276. Let's get to Jeff from South Carolina. Jeff, welcome. You're on the air. Well, Matt, this is something I've never really heard anybody really talk about, but, uh, um, there's a guy, well, I mean, have you ever heard of people? They won't use the name of Jesus.

They have to use like the Greek name or yes. Um, there's a guy on a shortwave radio. I listened to, sometimes they'll just have it on a night helps me sleep.

Just having that background sound. And I think his name's still at Glover, but he, okay. He's always, I mean, I've heard him on there for years. I've just never really heard any body comment about it that, uh, he only uses the name Yawa. Yeah.

Yeah. And he says that, uh, using the name of Jesus is wrong. And it comes from all them, uh, new Bible versions and stand the King James being the worst of them all.

And they all use them. The name of Jesus is wrong. So what, I mean what Bible does he use? I don't know, but I would just say, don't listen to him. Seriously. He just doesn't have all his paws in a litter box. All right.

He doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Is that something widespread or is that kind of a rare thing? No, I've heard of it before. There are people out there who, um, they, uh, they try and get more spiritual and say, you have to pronounce his name. Well, in Greek, Jesus is pronounced. Yeah. Jesus, but then they might say, well, you know, uh, it comes from the Aramaic, which is just shoe. What's he got to say?

Yeshua. It's like, right. Why? You know, why do they do that? I mean, I've heard people use other names, but they wouldn't like saying, don't say Jesus, but it's got saying don't say Jesus. Like it's wrong. No, you can say Jesus. It's not a big deal because it says, I don't know the name of Jesus most of my life.

So, I mean, yeah. You know, it says his name is called, it's just, it says in Matthew, uh, that his name shall be called, uh, Jesus. It says it's a record of genealogy, Jesus. And in Greek, it's Yeshua.

I think in Matthew one, one is right there. These guys just don't trust them. What do they do?

I mean, do they just like they have Bible and they just like mark the name out of Jesus and always use the name they want to use or that they use some totally different Bible or something? They, uh, that's the same. They get a lot of background noise there, but, uh, they just, they get into a, uh, uh, an uppity legalistic thing that they don't need to be in. That's all you don't need to be doing that. Okay. Yeah. It caused problems.

It caused division. They, uh, it's just, it's bad. All right. It is.

Yeah. Well, I was just curious cause I never really heard anybody comment about it. No, don't worry about it. You don't have to worry about it. Oh, I don't worry about it. I just think it's ridiculous to me. I don't know where it came from. Yeah, it is.

It's ridiculous. Uh, you know, my name in Greek is Matthias. Okay. Or in Spanish as Mateo. All right. Or Matthew in French.

Well, Matt in English. Okay. Oh, I'm sorry.

You don't pronounce the right name, right? That means you're not talking about the real person. It's just dumb.

It's just dumb. It is. God knows you. Yeah. You're talking to Jesus in the Bible. You say Jesus or Iesous. That's how it's pronounced in the Greek.

I mean, I don't say it in other, you know, different ways, but I mean, don't not leave her saying Jesus for me. Right. Yeah. Don't listen to them. They, uh, they're just troublemakers who don't know what they're doing. They don't know what they're doing. They're, they're, they're, it just is irritating. I find it irritating because they put bondage on people. I heard it on there. I don't know. It might be a different one that, I mean, he actually preaches on there and uses like mild profanity when he's preaching and stuff like he's one of those two. I don't know if it's the same guy or not, but he actually uses profanity and is preaching here and there.

But anyhow, well, I hope you're, um, uh, they're praying for your wife and I hope she gets better and stronger every day. Are you still there? Sorry about that. I, I hit my mute button.

I forgot to unmute it. Sorry. I was talking, uh, my bad. So no, uh, she's doing much better, uh, past, uh, two days. She's had a lot of issues and a lot of battles recently and, uh, she's coming along. So just, you know, I'm thankful for that.

I'm thankful that she's, uh, she is improving. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. I, you know, I have a 90 year old mother and she's really dealing with a lot of things that get some dementia and bad hip and a lot of things. And I'm, I'm with her, but I'm, I mean, I got it, I got a muscular dystrophy issue. So I'm kind of blind leading the blind around.

Here. Well, it turns out with our, my wife that, uh, we didn't know this that we figured out in the hospital that she has developed a problem with certain kinds of just pain meds. And, uh, not, you know, she hasn't abused anything. She hardly takes anything and sometimes you just get older and you take something and it doesn't work well for you.

That's all. And we found out that, okay, there's a couple of things that she's been using for a long time and, uh, you know, uh, under prescription orders and everything. And all of a sudden, uh, things changed. And so we found out that, Oh, okay. So make an adjustment and not her fault.

Nobody's fault. He's just like liver issues or anything like that. No, she's like, she's got good kidneys, good liver, um, and stuff like that.

She's pretty well. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's it, you know? Yeah. My mom has to take that.

My lots of camera every day. So it seems to work a lot better than Tylenol. Yeah. Well, you know, I, I mean one thing I've learned is that people out there have all kinds of problems. And, uh, I'm glad that meds are out there and I'm glad that people can take advantage of them.

I really am glad it's a good thing. So just take them and. Well, that's a lot of good natural remedies out there too.

For pain, you know, I've tried a few others. Some of it's really good. Yes, that's true.

There is. So that's really good. So, all right, I gotta get going.

I got callers coming. Okay buddy. Have a good weekend. Okay. You too. Thanks a lot. God bless. Okay. All right. Now let's see next longest waiting is Gibby Gibby from North Carolina. Give you welcome.

You're on the air. Hey man. Remember Paul was chained up in house arrest to the Praetorian guard. Uh, he saved many of them, right? Yes.

Well, I don't know about that, but he witnessed, you know, Oh, I just, I heard that he had had, uh, many came to faith and I was just wondering when they came to faith, uh, how'd that go over with the emperor? I have no idea. I don't know. Um, I don't know what it, it, uh, what happened. Couldn't tell you. Yeah.

Well, you know, but I have been to Philippi, which I'm, I'm glad to be able to say I have been there and, uh, I saw what they think is probably the jail cell that he was actually in. So, okay. Yeah, that's nice. All right. Appreciate it. All right, man. Appreciate it. All right.

You too, man. God bless. Yeah. God bless. Yeah.

All right. Now next longest waiting is Nate from California. Nate.

Welcome. You're on the air. Oh, there's a car.

Are you Matt? Okay. Hold on, buddy. I know.

Uh, we got just, I'll have a break. So hold on. Be right back. Okay.

Hey folks. So please stay tuned. Be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, all you're going to do is dial 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. All right now. I'd like you to do is, uh, if you want to email me, you can do that too.

That's easy info at carm.org info at carm.org and you can get me there. All right, now let's get back to Nate from California. Nate, welcome you back on the air.

How are you Matt? Like I said, it has been a while. Yep. Yeah.

Your job is like that. May the Lord bless you. Um, this is a question that I don't know why, but it popped into my, my head. Um, when Jesus was crucified, um, was the father crucified also for the Holy Spirit? No, uh, the father was not crucified.

That would be called patripassianism. So only the word was joined to human nature in, um, in flesh. So that's called the hypostatic union and only the person of Jesus was crucified.

But so the Holy Spirit, the father were not crucified. Okay. Okay. So the, no one that was crucified was the half man that he was, that Jesus was again, no one that was crucified was, um, Jesus or half of the man or both. Um, okay. Let me, let me just lay this out and see if I can answer it this way.

Okay. Jesus has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature. Choruses. This is called the hypostatic union. So in the one person of Jesus, there's a divine nature and a human nature.

All right. There's a doctrine called the communication of the properties. What that means is the properties of the divine and the properties of the human men are ascribed to the person so that the one person, Jesus, the person of Jesus had the attributes of divinity and humanity. So the person of Jesus says, father glorify me with the glory I had with you. Before the foundation of the world, he also said, uh, I am thirsty. So he claimed the attributes of both natures.

Okay. Now when Jesus was crucified, we can say that only the human aspect, only the human nature was crucified because divinity can't die, but the physical died. And so in that death, hold on a sec. In that death, we would say only the human nature experienced that death. But, um, um, but because it was the person who was crucified, then we would say that the sacrifice was of divine value because the attributes of both natures were ascribed to that one person.

The person was crucified. Therefore this, the sacrifices is of divine value. Okay.

I hope that helps. So the thought sense, there's only one God, but in three persons. Yes. Um, only the part of Jesus.

Um, am I correct again? Or if I say, yeah, only the person of Jesus was crucified. Only the person of Jesus.

Okay. Because I, thank you so much because I don't know why it came up into my mind. And this, um, I was, and then when it came into my mind, I started thinking and thinking and thinking, you know, because God cannot be crucified whatsoever. In other words, um, the way Jesus, they put him on the cross and all the angels, you know, put their heads down and were started up because that was who was crucified was God, Jesus.

Yes. The person of Christ who has two distinct natures, divine and human. He was crucified.

Okay. So the one who felt all the pain was, um, the human part. Was Jesus. Jesus is the one who is crucified. The person of Jesus, not the father, not the Holy Spirit, but the person of Christ. The person of Christ has two natures, the divine nature and the human nature. The attributes of both natures are what became or were prescribed to that one person. So by definition, Jesus as a person necessarily has the two attributes, the two sets of attributes that can never be broken.

Otherwise he no longer is Jesus. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay.

Um, well, yes, I won't think more, study it more. Okay. Um, thank you so much.

May the Lord bless you and your Holy family. Okay. Well, thank you. All right.

Be careful. I'll be patient. Okay. All right. Well, God bless. God bless, man. Hope to see, we hope to see you one day.

Well, you will in heaven, Lord willing. But yeah, all that, that's for sure. Okay. Well, good. Okay. All right. God bless. Okay. God bless. Okay.

All right. Now let's get to bill from Chicago. Bill. Welcome. You are on the air.

Matt slick. Wow. What a interesting, I can I just say, I'm really happy to talk to you.

I, I it's been a long time since I ever first heard your name. Wow. Um, yeah, I, I'm, I'm what if I'm about to be 35 when I was in college, I was an atheist.

All right. Um, I was like the coolest atheist ever. I knew all of the, uh, um, materialist arguments and all of that.

And I used to love watching atheism debate videos online. And, um, I always enjoyed yours the most back then. Um, and, uh, let me just say it's, Oh, why?

I don't know. I always thought you did a lot. You, you had the most interesting arguments, uh, against atheism. Okay.

They really challenged me at the time. And I'm not going to say, uh, Oh, uh, you convinced me to become a Christian or anything. Cause that's a much longer story, but, um, uh, I maybe in a way you had a small effect and, um, I, I, I've been searching for years. This one video of you on the internet, okay. Uh, as is gone probably of you talking about the doctrine of original sin. Okay. And I thought to myself, why not just call the man up?

Yeah, we are. Um, because, and I, I, truth be told, I couldn't be wrong. Maybe it was someone else, but I swear it was you and you were talking about original sin and I don't think anyone's ever explained it better than, than I heard you explain it.

And it did stick in my cross for a long time. And, uh, I don't know. Um, God bless you. First of all. And, uh, I was hoping that you could talk a little bit about it. Uh, Original sin, what it is for sure.

I can, I can do that if you want. Okay. Cause it's not in the Bible. It's not strictly biblical, right? Yeah. It's in the Bible. It is.

I can tell you exactly what it's about. Yes. It's Romans five. I thought that those two words together never, I thought that that was a no original sin is in the Bible. It's Romans five 19. It says forth through one man's disobedience.

That's Adam. The many were made sinners. That's original sin. We were made sinners by Adam sin. That's what original sin is.

Okay. Now, can you explain like, how do you understand that to, to operate in our lives, you know, um, in a, uh, in a practical sense. Well, it just means that we inherited the sinful nature of, of, uh, of Adam.

That's what it means. And so we have to suffer those, those sins with the, the nature of fallenness. We are by nature, children of wrath. And so what we want to do is we want to, um, excuse me, we want to just work the best we can to try and, and not be, you know? All right.

I mean, it's hard, but I guess the question is why, why are, why do we inherit it? I'll tell you that after the break. Okay.

Why do we inherit his sin? Okay. Sure thing.

All right. Hold on. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages, please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is easy.

877-207-2276. All right, let's get back on with bill from Chicago. Bill, are you still there? Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. So do you want to know why we inherited original sin? I have a theory of why that's the case. Okay. You have a theory about why we inherited it or why I want to know.

Um, well, what do you want to, what do you want to know? Just curious. Well, I guess I, um, I remember you explaining it in a way that was different than what I grew up with. Uh, I grew up Catholic, you know, and, uh, I was very resistant to the idea, uh, that by just by virtue of being, uh, a man that I'm somehow, you know, a bad guy or that I, you know, that I'm here, but I'm fallen. Um, and I think what it really is is that I just had not yet suffered truly as a, I didn't know the, the reality of life in a lot of ways. Um, and so I had this whole problem of separating myself. I said, how am I going to bow down before a God or a man who says that I'm lesser or something like that?

Um, and I don't know. I, um, I guess now I created more of the problem of evil in and of itself. Um, why would we suffer? I'm not sure what your question is. Why do we suffer and why do we sin?

I think they're related, right? Well, the reason we suffer is because sin is in the world. And the reason we sin is because we have sinful nature. The reason we have a sinful nature is that when Adam fell, we inherited the sinful nature that came from Adam. Now people may not like that, but that's what the Bible teaches. Romans five 19 to the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners. Now, if they're going to reject that Christ of excuse me, that Adam represented us and we were made sinners by what he did, then they must be consistent and reject that Jesus when he died made us righteous. Okay. That makes sense.

Sure. I, uh, but I don't, I don't think he necessarily makes us righteous. Uh, and just in and of itself, he makes us righteous by his work, by our, by the faith he grants to us that's in Christ's sacrifice. We're then reckoned as righteous.

We're declared righteous. Okay. So, yeah. But if, okay, so isn't that conditional upon us like accepting Jesus's grace? Yes. Um, we, we receive Christ and when we do that by faith, then we are justified.

This means the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, reckon to, uh, our account. All right. Okay. Right. Makes sense.

I guess when, when, when God sends Adam out of the garden, yeah. And, and shows he's going to be made to toil and, you know, and his life will be suffering. Yeah. Um, I guess I equate that, that fallen nature with him.

Yeah. We have a fallen nature. We sin because we have a fallen nature. Adam didn't have a fallen nature, but he was able to sin and he did. And then Adam was sinless up until, um, up until he disobeyed God.

Okay. And I guess, um, the whole question of why we suffer and why we said, I guess that's why I connect them. We sin and we suffer and have sin in our life because sin has entered into the world.

Because when Adam sinned, sin entered the world, not just us, but the world also. That's Romans 5, 12. Okay. I see. So you, you would think of Eden as a garden of the world.

I'm sorry. Say it again. I guess, uh, then you would say that, uh, the garden, uh, Eden was part of the world. Um, yes, it exists physically over there, uh, in Africa, Mediterranean area over there. Yeah.

The Euphrates river near there. Yeah. Okay. I guess I, I guess I, I guess I still take it a little bit metaphorically.

Nope. It's a real place. Like we left the garden. It's a, it's a real place. All right. It's an actual garden. Okay. It's an actual garden.

Okay. Well, I, I mean, I can't, I have no problem believing that, but I guess in the, in the telling of the story, it's meant to convey a deeper, uh, uh, thing than they left a physical place. Well, all I can tell you is it was a real place and, uh, it really happened or, but, and it, uh, really happened. But I guess what I mean is, uh, the description, the reason why we tell it over and over again for all these thousands of years is because it has a sort of, you know, um, um, what are we, what's the word? The reason we say it, the reason we say it is because it's true. It's simply true. It's under, uh, it's, it taught in scripture and that's it. It's just taught in scripture. And so that's what we understand. That's what we teach.

You don't have to like it. I mean, you know, it's whatever, but, but, uh, that's what it is. Okay. Okay. Sure. But I guess, um, um, there's a, there's a, there's a psychological and sort of deep, deeper meaning than he just left. Uh, he left the garden. Well, no, there's a lot of, you know, we're talking about a man following this, you know, you know, there's a lot of teaching in there, but when I'm, I'm, uh, I'm saying is that it's a real garden, a real physical garden.

There's a lot of stuff that happened there and it means, but the thing I was focusing on with you is it's a real place. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And, and I, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

Okay. I guess I'm just saying, it represents a sort of, uh, uh, sort of a psychic break from our connection with, uh, with divinity that Jesus restores, um, or can restore. I'm not sure where you're going.

You kind of circling around something, but I'm not sure what it is. Uh, the garden was a real place. It really happened.

It would really, it still exists. It's guarded so it can't be found. And that's where they sinned, sin entered the world there because the garden is in the world. All right. Okay. And I'm saying that, that the idea that they, that we carry the burden of their sin psychologically and epigenetically throughout history, um, is a deep truth that a lot of people have a hard time accepting. Yeah. A lot of people have trouble accepting that kind of stuff.

Yes, they do. Okay. But anyway, you have any other question related to it at all? Um, I guess, um, the deeper question is, uh, more about the, the, the externalities of our, of our fallen nature that we see all around us, the finality in the world. I'm not sure the externalities, the externalities, the things that are, yeah, hold on, hold on.

Let's get back. I need you to, I'm not following what you're, what you're saying. So we live in a world, what's your question? What, what, what question would you say you have? Um, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. Um, I guess, why is it important that, that, that man be fallen in order for us to find God? We don't have to be fallen to find God. We don't have to be fallen to find God, but we are fallen.

Well, we're, we are fallen by our nature. Hold on, hold on. You got to let me finish the case because I'm trying to answer you and you kind of, you kind of keep going different directions with as you jump in. So I'm having difficulty following what you're saying. I apologize. That's okay. So I'm just saying we didn't have to, we, okay.

We've now that we're following, we find God through Christ, the redemptive work of Christ. Okay. All right. I'm not sure what you're, what you're asking though.

Do you have a question? I guess, um, I always saw when I was younger, I always saw it as cruel that God would burden us in that way. Um, but now I see it as sort of necessary. And, um, and I guess my question is to you is, did God see it that way?

And if so, why? I'm not sure. I can't answer your question. I can't answer your question because did God see it that way? I'm not sure what you're saying.

He would have seen or understood the way that you're trying to convey it, because I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to convey. Okay. So I'm sorry, but just having difficulty following your line of, of, of reasoning. When God cast us out of the garden. Yeah. And Adam, you know, not us, but the garden, Adam and Eve.

Uh, and we were made to suffer as a result of their transgression. Okay. Yeah. I guess that was part of God's plan. Yes. His sovereign plan. He certainly accounted for that in his plan, eternal plan. Yep.

And, uh, I guess I'm saying, um, I guess what I'm saying is I understand why now and I used to not understand it. Yeah. Well, we are at a time, sorry, but we've got the music starting in about a minute. So, uh, you know, it's, I know it's, I'm not sure what you're getting at, but, uh, you could go to CARM and you could read up on original sin and, and things about that and, and maybe formulate a question or two and, uh, and, and call back Monday.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but you could go to CARM and you could read back Monday. Okay. All right, buddy. There's all right, man. All right. Talk to you later. God bless.

Hey folks. Hope you have an interesting time. I mean, the Lord bless you. I hope that you have a good weekend. I certainly need one. And by God's grace, we'll be back on the air on Monday and we'll talk to you then. So have a great weekend everybody. God bless. Another program powered by the truth network.