Michael's Story Part 3

You're entering outer brightness. And somewhere in there, there was just a really big faith crisis as well. I think it was more along the lines, before I learned about alien righteousness, I was just really struggling with my faith. And it was like this really bad broken roller coaster that I just wanted to get off of, but I couldn't. And some days, I was convinced that the church was true.

And then the next day, I'm like, it's completely a fraud. And I just kept going back and forth on this. And I finally came to the realization that it was false. And a lot of the Christians online just made such a huge impact on me.

One of our friends, shout out here to Fred Anson, really helped me a lot too, because he encouraged me. He said, if you're in a submarine and you have a compass, it'll always say you're going north because of the magnetism in the submarine and you need to get out and use that compass. And he encouraged me to get away from the church and look at it objectively. And once I did that, I was appalled by what I saw. The more I looked at the church, the more it looked like a cult. I could understand why people said that about Mormonism.

And it frightened me quite a bit to look at it from an outside perspective. And Paul, you were a really big influence on me as well. I remember going through the marriage, started going through some big issues. And that was before I left the church. And I remember talking to you about it, Paul, and you said you were going to pray for me with your group at seminary. Yeah, that was actually at church.

We were gathering on Wednesday nights for a study on evangelism, in particular to Muslims. And the pastor friend of mine who was leading us through that study asked if there were any prayer requests. And I knew that you were going through a tough time, both with your marriage and with the questions you had about the LDS Church. And so I asked the group to pray for you that night. And we spent the first probably five or six minutes or so of that class period praying specifically for you and over your situation.

Yeah. So I remember that night, I woke up and this is during, right in the middle of my faith crisis. I woke up and it was the strangest thing because I just felt like the atmosphere was different than normal. It felt like there was singing going on, but it was like in a different plane of existence.

But I could kind of tell that it was there anyway. It was just unlike anything I'd ever experienced. And I got up and it's just like, wow, I feel good. And I just, I knew what it was. I was like, right now I'm being prayed over. I don't know how I knew that. But in that moment, I just knew that that's what was going on. And I'm like, this is incredible.

This has never happened to me before. And I think it was really close to accepting Christ that night. I had been really depressed with the faith crisis and the way things were going in my marriage at that point. And I remember going to my son's bedroom.

He was probably two and a half at that point. And I knelt by his bed and I realized that in the state that I was in, I couldn't be a good parent to him. And I was just, you know, the realization of how pitiful I was just washed over me. And I was just like, I give up, God, you know, I can't do this. But I didn't take the next step and actually accept Christ as Lord and savior of my life.

I just like, I give up, you know, I can't do this. And so I kind of reached rock bottom there. But I remember, you know, I kind of asked you if you had prayed for me the next day. And you're like, yes, we did.

And so that confirmed that something really was going on that night. Yeah, that was a really interesting time to, you know, be kind of close to you and become your friend through what you were going through. You know, obviously, we have similar journeys and in terms of leaving the LDS church, but your experiences is different than mine in several ways. And, you know, I just remember you mentioned that you were, you belong to like a super secret Mormon apologist Facebook group. You know, we had our own kind of Facebook messenger threads going as evangelical Christians during that time. And, you know, you were often the topic of discussion on the on those threads because a lot of us could tell that you were really wrestling with the question of grace and your salvation and that you were, we could sense that you were sincere about it. You know, sometimes when you're in the kind of the trenches of witnessing to Mormons, you know, you experience people who will just say they agree with just about everything you say, but you can tell that they really don't, right?

They're just looking for that kind of pat on the back, okay, you're a Christian too kind of feeling. But we could sense that you were not in that place. You were sincere. I remember having one late night conversation with you over messenger where I was working on a paper. You mentioned that I was going to seminary at the time and I was up late working on a paper. I'd worked all day and but I could just sense through our conversation that you were you were working through something and we were talking about grace and, you know, I brought up the passage, you know, that we were dead in our sins and trespasses and I asked you, you know, can a dead person do anything, you know, because we were talking about works righteousness and just those conversations and it was just, it was a real pleasure to be involved in that holy experience of seeing you go through that and seeing God draw you to himself. Yeah, no, I'm grateful that you were there at the right time and the right place. I mean, there were a couple, you know, people that just, I know God put them there and you were one of them, so really, really good stuff. I was thinking about like, I wish I could have been there just hearing all this. It's just an incredible story of Michael coming, you know, coming to faith in Christ and but it just makes me think that like, of course, I'm a Calvinist, but I know that God uses means to bring people to him, so he sends people on your path or he'll preach a certain, you know, a pastor might preach a word to you that just makes everything click for you, you know, so God uses all kinds of means to bring people to himself.

Yeah, I agree with that. It was quite the difficult transition and one of the things that made it extra difficult was just the marital situation at the time. Things had taken a nose dive with us over the last couple of years and it was not a good relationship. There was really no love in the relationship at all and just prior to being saved, I was starting to have the temptation creep in to go have an affair with somebody else because I wanted somebody in my life that cared about me and loved me, you know, loved me unconditionally and was willing to sacrifice for me and I went out and had that affair, but it wasn't with a woman.

It was with the Most High God and it was just like an affair in some ways because it was a secret relationship that my wife didn't know about. It's funny that you put it that way because I mentioned that I was engaged at the time and like I was learning so much about God and the Gospel and the Bible and looking back it was almost like that, like you keep it as a secret affair and you don't want her to know about it and you try to bring it up in a conversation like, what do you think about this? You know, like maybe, you know, you want to talk about God a little bit and then they freak out. It is kind of like that.

Exactly. Yes and so, you know, the guy that does a lot of the videos on the impossible Gospel is Keith Walker and he lives in San Antonio which was about an hour out from where we lived and I'd been planning to have a sit-down conversation with him for a while to put him in his place but by the time I finally sat down with him I already was in a place where I was just like, okay, explain this to me one more time and so we talked for a couple of hours and then I accepted Jesus Christ and gave my life to him that day about three years ago and then I left and went back to normal life. At first I didn't really feel that different. I was like, huh, that prayer didn't really seem like it did much but then there'd just be little things that would happen like seeing the beauty of a raindrop and actually appreciating it because I'd been so focused on improving myself over the day before and eradicating the sin from my life that I couldn't enjoy the beauty of nature and now all of a sudden I could and it was like an entire new planet that I was on and it was so vibrant and beautiful and then when I did sin again instead of feeling guilty I was like I could feel the love of God and I'm like this is a big God that I worship now. It's not a being that just gets offended anytime I say or do something wrong and ghosts me but he's the bigger man and he still loves me when I mess up and this is what grace is and I was on a high for a long time and of course a lot of the Christians that I'd been debating online were thrilled that I left and after being on this side and being in debate groups and debating latter-day saints I can only imagine how incredible that must be and a lot of and a lot of Christians were trying to tell me like hey Michael like just throwing this out there like I know you're having a great time but things are gonna get hard you know have you told your wife yet and I'm like nope and it's like I know things are gonna get hard but I'm holding on to this feeling as long as I can because it was literally the first time in my life that I'd been feeling this feeling of total unconditional love and acceptance and it was just it was something that Mormonism could not offer me even on its best day. Now eventually the truth of me leaving the church did come out and it wasn't very pretty. I waited several months before I told anyone in my family because I was scared to death to tell them about the transition that I'd made.

I'd seen too many horror stories where divorces had happened and people would shun their family members and I was not I was in a hurry to get to that. I think the first person that I told was my bishop and I had been doing this after I published my book I had been going around doing like little discussions or presentations on LDS apologetics and I was telling them how to defend against the Trinity and against like how to explain grace and works and I had this whole hour presentation that I'd given a couple of times in a couple of different wards and so they knew me as the apologist guy locally and people would turn up to kind of listen to me give this presentation and I'd done public debates. I actually debated my friend Eddie Enoch because he went to the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and I went up there and debated him on the Trinity. The Trinity was my specialty. I remember getting up and saying you know if God is omnipresent and it kills us to even look at him we shouldn't be able to stand here with our eyes open because it should kill us instantly and that should tell us that something is wrong with the Trinity doctrine and you know I debated Lynn Wilder.

That was a big turning point in my transition. I did a podcast or not a podcast but a online debate with her and that was the first time where she said that you know Christianity was at odds with Mormonism and I didn't think that was true. I'm like no they're they're really the same thing we're just the advanced form of Christianity. They're like our little brother you know our baby little brother who's two years old and doesn't know anything but we're not at odds we're just more developed and when I learned about impeded righteousness I realized that that is it is not a stepping stone to Mormonism it is completely contrary to everything that Mormonism teaches. In fact I would say that it is the most anti-Mormon doctrine that I've ever heard in my life but uh so I told the bishop you know I was actually the ward mission leader so I was in a really awkward situation because I was in charge of getting people baptized into the Mormon church but I knew the Mormon church was false but I didn't want to look like anything was going on or I was unfaithful and so I remember one of my friends got baptized and before he could get the gift of the Holy Ghost that me and him had a discussion and he ended up not going through with it after we talked. He'd found some things online and I was like yeah um it's not true you know but but I sat down with the bishop I gave him my keys and I said that I was resigning as the ward mission leader and I would not be coming back and he gave me this smug look and he he says you're kidding right and I'm like no bishop I'm serious I don't believe the church is true and his big smile just slowly faded away as he realized that I was telling the truth because I was the last person that anybody expected to leave at this point and he's like well can you kind of tell me why and I said yeah um yeah I believe that grace alone is enough to save us and he's like well don't we believe that I'm like no bishop and so I explain LDS doctrine to him that if we need to be baptized and and receive temple ordinances that that is not grace alone being enough to save us that is other things that we need to do and I also told him that I didn't believe the holy ghost abandoned us when we were trapped in sin and needed him the most and and then I got away from him and I immediately called the sister missionaries in the ward because I was the ward mission leader and I was supposed to have a meeting with them every Thursday and I told them that I we were not going to be having the meeting that I had resigned as the ward mission leader I didn't tell him I was leaving the church and going apostate but they figured it out somehow and I ended up uh you know I was like okay now that I've told the bishop and the sister missionaries I was like okay I'm gonna give myself two days to work up the courage to tell my wife because she's gonna find out at this point somehow so I ended up taking my kid to go see Finding Dory at the movies and when I came back Lorena who was my wife she she's like hey we need to talk I'm like okay turned out that the sister missionaries had come by the house and they dropped off a letter for me and she read it basically asking me to come back to the church so she found out that way and she's just you know pretty unhappy with me for having to find out that way and I kind of told her I'm like look I think the church is hindering my relationship with God more than it is helping it and at the end of the discussion she seemed really supportive you know she said I was like I was afraid that you were going to you know shun me and she said stop treating me like I'm one of them I'm your wife which really encouraged me at the time but joining uh gaining this relationship with Christ ended up putting a tremendous strain on us because she really was still committed to the church sorry just trying to gather my thoughts here no you're fine you're doing great other people found out without me telling them one one group was my uh my parents-in-law found out I started going to this church locally called the connection church and uh it was I liked it a lot it was super different from Mormonism they had uh a drummer and laser lights and and cool music and the pastor was an awesome guy pastor cole um he just he took me under his wings right away and would have sit downs with me and and kind of go through the doctrine of Christianity because he's like you know your journey into Christianity isn't normal and you know I want to talk to you about things and so he was kind of my rock for a while but I remember the first time I went over there they were doing this series called God and the movies and so they transformed the entire church to look like a movie theater with the 3d cutouts and and everything and so I was just like is this some kind of secret movie theater like that only believers know about and and my son Nathan got super excited because they had like one of the movies that he wanted to see and I'm like I don't we're not gonna go see that today I don't think you know it's like I think we're here for church but I ended up going to their Christmas program you know in an evening and of course the LDS church doesn't have a Christmas program that you go to at night they have a broadcast that you can watch at home but my in-laws were staying with us at the time and I went anyway and they asked my wife like where is he she said oh church and that's when they kind of knew that something was up and my father-in-law hammered me the next day with questions and he finally got the truth out of me and I was real reluctant to tell him I'm like yeah we I'm like yeah your daughter hasn't been going to church lately and he's like and he's like yeah well what church did you go to yesterday I'm like well you know I went to the connection church and so he's like he figured out what was going on and he's like I can't believe it you of all people you were so good at defending it what happened and then he goes I know what happened you stopped reading your scriptures and praying and I looked at him and I said no I started reading my scriptures and praying and then he pretty much left me alone forever after that but the really awkward thing was that Dave Bartosewick flew down and interviewed me and he ended up putting that video on on YouTube and somehow it showed up on my Facebook feed and I guess he deleted it so I never saw it but my family did and I have one brother that left the church and he called me and he's like hey Michael just so you know um you know dad and and Dave had my brother like they're watching the video about your interview and I'm like what it was Christmas Eve I was supposed to go see all these people the next day I'm like no this can't be happening right now like I was gonna just I just wanted to wait for the holidays to finish and then I was gonna tell them so yeah lesson of the of the night it does not pay to stall telling people things because they're gonna find out anyways but then they decided they were gonna sweep everything under the rug because it was Christmas and then they would talk to me about it later so Christmas was the most awkward thing imaginable you know they were still interacting with me and and my mom like handed me the present for my kid and she was smiling but in her eyes I could just see her crying on the inside just looking at me thinking my son is going to outer darkness nope outer brightness outer brightness did you have feelings like that or were you pretty pretty confident that the path you're taking was what the Lord wanted you where the Lord wanted to take you I was not confident at all in fact for a while there I was thinking what the heck have I done I've just sent myself to outer darkness because I had to follow my stupid conscience and you know they always say people who leave the church have intellectualized their way out and my dad said that to me that he always suspected I would intellectualize my way out of the church and I'm thinking maybe that is what I did you know when when you've been Mormon so long it was 32 years for me it's so ingrained in you that you just think it can't be false it's impossible and those thoughts didn't go away and and Fred actually sent me a book called the prodigal God by Tim Keller and I read that book and it explained the parable of the prodigal son from a Christian viewpoint and by the time I finished that book I was convinced that I had made the right decision because as I read about the older brother I saw so many parallels to the LDS church and and in that parable you know the older brother is the one that does not go into the feast because he's so blind to the fact that he is in rebellion and that he's selfish and and against his father as well so that that really helps solidify things for me but it was a long drawn-out process I think logically I came to a conclusion that Christianity was true and that Mormonism was false but what I really struggled with was just emotionally accepting that you know I think my heart still wanted it was still holding on to onto Mormonism desperately it was something that I was familiar with it was nostalgic it was you know it was my family I felt like I was leaving my family to to come into this new this new life and I remember I had this dream one night that you know the church had done like made some kind of a mistake it was some big deal but they kidnapped me and they were gonna keep me in this room underground prisoner for the rest of my life to cover up their mistake and somehow I escaped and I went to my wife and my son and I explained the situation to them and said I had to leave I had to disappear and in my dream in my dream I kissed them both goodbye and my son was holding me real tight and and crying and and I woke up crying for real because I just I felt like I was gonna lose my family it was the biggest fear that I had and and I I tried to hold on as hard as I could and and here's the crazy thing you know I said that I was getting to a point where I didn't really love my wife and I was looking to have an affair well God changed my heart and he made me fall back in love with her and I really felt the same way about her that I did when I was engaged it had woken everything back up and it was like I was back in that moment you know it was it was unbelievable and I was fighting for her and she was saying things to me like oh like what are you what am I supposed to do like become a Christian like you think Jesus is just gonna change my heart and I was looking at her saying yes you know actually yes but it but in the end she did file for divorce you know and and I was changing a lot of things in my life you know like things that she'd wanted me to do for a long time like I came up with a five-year plan for us and and just did a bunch of things differently and I was trying I was like you know things aren't great but lucky her she is a Christian husband now that should be a dream come true so I'm gonna be the best husband ever because if I try hard enough right that's the Mormon mindset if you try hard enough nothing can fail and and she even said to me you know I see a lot of the changes that you're making and and it's things that I wish you would have done a long time ago but it's too late and and then she filed for the divorce and that was 2017 I think where she first uh said that that this was going to happen and there was nothing that I could do to change her mind and I spent that in that year I think I cried more than in all the previous years combined and I fell completely into depression for months and I started to kind of question God a little bit and I was like God like why did you pull me out of Mormonism just to watch me suffer and for my whole life to collapse and it finally hit rock bottom where I just you know I felt like my heart was just turning into a lump of coal and I'm like I'm not even I don't even have it in me to try to be a good person anymore I give up and then miraculously I think in a day or two God just completely healed me and I felt amazing and I think I just feel like he he let me get down there to show me that he was all that I need and and really I'm just the kind of person that you know had to be dragged kicking and screaming into Christianity because I will just hold on to anything and try to make that my savior or my idol you know and I was holding on to my family because in Mormonism your family is everything your eternal family and there's a quote where it says you know no success outside the home can or no no success in life can compensate for failure in the home and and so just that mindset is like if I fail in my marriage I am a failure that is the end of the the end of the story that sounds like a really stressful experience I can't even imagine how difficult it must have been so for the listeners out there who would maybe they're in a similar situation you know they they feel like God is pulling them in a different direction than the LDS church or they're terrified of what their spouse will do if they reveal that they're no longer believing in the LDS church and its claims do you have any advice for them Michael like for those who maybe are afraid to change or who are in the process and they're you know maybe they might lose their spouse or their children what would you say to them I'd say don't be afraid because even if things are are rough right now or they get rough and I think it does for all ex-Mormons to some degree or another you know that that tunnel it gets pretty dark but there's light at the end of that tunnel and there's there's more light at the end of that tunnel than you can even imagine you know I've I'm at a place now where I don't even hardly remember the pain that I was going through unless I conjured up on purpose to to remember it but God is God is good you know when he starts a work in our lives he is faithful to finish it he's not the God of Mormonism where it's he's always just there to judge you and and condemn you if you're not perfect he's there to to run to you and and he's there to heal us and I've just been almost I'm almost without words for for all the all the things God has done in my life you know I just I was at a place where I just thought that I would never be able to feel joy again and God has just brought so many changes in my life and it's only been a little over a year since the divorce was official and I remember you know I would tell my situation and I would get so frustrated sometimes with with Christians because they would immediately start praying for my wife and I to be reconciled and and I'm like I don't I don't know that that's really what I want it's like what should be praying for is that she'll find Jesus because that's really what she needs in her life but but God you know he brought he brought another woman into my life and you know I was really not expecting to date anyone for a long time and I especially wasn't comfortable with the idea of dating a Christian woman because I was like how are they gonna understand where I'm coming from first of all and second how am I ever gonna feel like I'm on the same level as them because you know they've been Christian their whole lives and I'm just a baby Christian so what right do I even have and then I met this woman Brianna and she is an ex-Mormon too an ex-Mormon Christian and you know we just started talking online and the ex-Mormon Christians group which it's funny because it's not a dating site at all it is now it is now yep but yeah she was out in California and I went up there and snagged her and married her and and and things are good so so yeah anybody that is going through or going through a struggle or or worried about what the struggle could be and and there's things that I worry about still you know like I worry that my ex is going to take my son away and I'm never gonna see him again I worry about that or that I'll barely get to see him and what I really have to realize is I'm I'm I'm saved my salvation is secure I have a loving God and Savior who who is with me at all times and and there's really nothing that anybody can do to me at this point the worst somebody can do is is take my life and even then I get to be in the presence of Jesus in heaven and there's just so much joy in the Christian walk there is so much to live for it feels like an adventure every day it's something completely new from what we grew up in you know there were these these boundaries of religion that I was stuck in before and now it's those have all opened up and and I get to explore so yeah I if I had to make the decision all over again knowing what I was going to lose I would make the same choice a thousand times over and even if there even if there was no light at the end of the tunnel you know Christ I believe that Jesus is is worth dying for and if that's what we have to do then that's great amen you know there are so many metaphors in scripture for for the new life that God gives to people he talks about giving people a new heart exchanging beauty for ashes you know giving life to dry bones and all of those are beautiful metaphors for you know what we've experienced and watching you go through it having conversations with you as you went through it I know that time when when your marriage was crumbling was extremely difficult on you and you and I talked on the phone during that time and and as a friend I I felt helpless I didn't know how to how to help what to pray for for you through that time it was one of those experiences where you know you had to and I had to as a friend just say to God you know you have to have this because we don't and to see where he has brought you to is just to me one of the most beautiful things that that I've ever witnessed and I I'm just you know thankful to God to see his goodness and his his grace and his mercy in your life yeah amen me too and I'm kind of still in the debate groups but now I'm on the other side and and I'm witnessing firsthand exactly where I was before and and sometimes I get frustrated debating with latter-day saints you know I I leave a debate and I say there is no hope for these people and then I look in the mirror and I'm like oh wait yeah there is there's always hope for every you know God has Jesus has the power to save every man woman and child on this planet regardless of how good I am at sharing the gospel well I was just thinking I think the interview you were talking about earlier was the one where you had mentioned the book that you wrote I think that was the first time I had been introduced to you when I was kind of a questioning Mormon and then I looked at the amazon page for your book and then I read your own review of it and I laughed just about how you said like this is the worst book ever written about the bible or something like that I laughed for a good 10 minutes and I thought you know I was like I couldn't see myself as having that happen to me you know I thought I was gonna somehow get through it and become Mormon but but uh you know it didn't work out that way and I'm and just like I agree with Paul that just hearing your story and it's just I just love hearing about other latter-day saints that are let out and and like you said like we're both in the same groups on on Facebook and we're trying to witness to latter-day saints and we just we just really I just want to really say to any if there are any latter-day saints that listen that we love you that we that we do this because we care about you we're not doing it to win any brownie points in heaven or to sound smart or anything like that like we we've been where you are right now and there's just such a much easier way that Christ is the way to salvation and that we can just unload all of our our guilt our shame our fears upon him and we don't have to go through this system of talking to your bishop and and you know going through all this system of works and and ordinances and things like that to become clean with God again you can be clean with God right now you can just go straight to God and Christ is our only mediator with the father and we can trust in him and his sacrifice to make us righteous and so just hearing stories like yours Michael it's just to me it's such a blessing because I get so down on my like even now as a Christian I sometimes get down on myself like man like why did I do that like why did I say that thing you know like why why why wasn't I nicer to that person but then just hearing this it just reminds me like you know what I'm in Christ like he saved me already I need to continue to repent and follow after Christ but I'm already righteous in God's eyes I don't need to do anything to prove myself to God and just hearing your story just really humbles me and reminds me that that God is so gracious he's so good and there's nothing that we do to deserve any of that so I want to thank you and I praise God for for bringing you to where you are now I was going to add one other thing this just came to my mind you know when I was struggling with all this you feel so alone when you are questioning the church I think that's one of the hardest things about it is you know in my case my whole family even my wife was LDS and I felt like I couldn't talk to anybody and you know if anyone is listening and you're in that situation I just want to encourage you there are groups on Facebook there's one Mormons in transition and there are people that want to help you that aren't going to judge you at all and really there is an entire family just waiting to embrace you in your journey we thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast we'd love to hear from you please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like we also have an outer brightness group on Facebook where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast past episodes and suggestions for future episodes etc you can also send us an email at outer brightness at gmail.com we hope to hear from you soon you can subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on apple podcasts cast box google podcasts pocketcast podbean spotify and stitcher also you can check out our new youtube channel and if you like it be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it if you like what you hear please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word you can also connect with michael the x mormon apologist at from water to wine dot org where he blogs and sometimes paul and matthew do as well music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented brianna florinoy and by adams road learn more about adams road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com stay bright flyerflies lord to whom shall we go you have the words of eternal life and we have believed and have come to know that you are the holy one of god the word made fresh the risen son heaven and earth will pass away but the word of the lord endures forever all this world is in decay but the word of our god through ages remains lord you promised that we as your church would remain upon this rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against us because you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity heaven and earth will pass away but the word of the lord endures forever all this world is in decay but the word of our god through ages remains as the rain falls down from heaven and what has he heard bringing it light so the word that goes out from your mouth will not return empty but does what you desire lord we hear your word and believe in you heaven and earth will pass away but the word of the lord endures forever all this world is in decay but the word of our god through ages remains the word of god remains