Identity Mormon OR In CHRIST Part 2

You're entering outer brightness. Matthew, what would you say, like, by the time you were an adult, was part of your identity Mormon, kind of like I've been talking about, and, you know, how strongly did you have a sense of yourself as Mormon as an adult? Yeah, it was when I was preparing for my mission, serving my mission and returning home from my mission, where I did feel that sense of, this is who I am, this is my identity. It's interesting how you described how you felt like you're going to be a Mormon and a Christian.

I was trying to think, did I feel the same way? I did have similar feelings like you, reading the lights at Temple Square in Salt Lake City. And I just always loved Christmas time, just the weather.

I love snow, except driving in it, I hate it. And just, you know, that's the time of season where you're reading about Jesus, you're reading from the Gospels usually, you know, you're not really usually reading from the Book of Mormon and doctrine cones and everything like that. You're reading the, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But yeah, I turned from my mission and I was active for several years. So, all the way through from probably age 20 and onward, that's kind of how I saw myself. I realized I forgot to share the other experience that was like the end, the ending bookend to my mission. So, I talked about, you know, the experience of going to Temple Square and seeing the lights before. And then the first Christmas after I came home from my mission, we went to my great aunts and uncles, I think they were Methodist church for a Christmas Eve service. And that was one of my first experiences with a Methodist church. They had a, you know, a female pastor and I remember coming out of the service and it was a beautiful service and it was a Christmas Eve service. So, of course, I felt like I could partake and be a part of that, right?

Because I'm, although I was a Mormon, I was a Christian too. And my, I remember coming out, stepping outside after the service and, you know, the pastor came out and was saying goodbye to her congregation and shaking hands. And my aunt and uncle and my family, my mom and dad and my siblings, we were all standing around just kind of talking. And I remember, you know, I mentioned before, my great aunt was, she was from Brooklyn and she was outspoken.

And she said to my dad, you know, something about when are you going to come back to, you know, kind of the Christian faith, you know, because his family was always kind of giving him a hard time about that. And I remember thinking at the time, like, man, you know, why can't that Christmas Eve service be a time when we can come together with other Christians was the way I was thinking about things, right? And not realizing that there were, I mean, I think I did realize there were doctrines that set Latter-day Saints apart in vast ways from the broad swath of Christianity. But as a Latter-day Saint, I didn't see those as significant. And I think that's weird because on the one hand, I did see them as significant because they were supposed to be important, right? Those distinctives.

Else, why would there be a need for a restoration? But from my sense of self, I think I didn't see them as significant. Like, why should they separate us from people who should share our beliefs? And so by the time I was an adult, being Mormon was definitely entrenched as part of my identity. You know, the mission gave me this feeling of being both different and special. And yet there was this desire within me to be accepted by broader Christianity. When I got married, I married into a Southern Baptist family. And I think I talked about earlier in another episode about how the Southern Baptist had held their convention in Salt Lake City the year I was leaving on my mission.

So I had this sense that the Southern Baptists didn't like us, right? And so I remember the first Easter that Angela and I were together, I wrote an email to my future mother-in-law to kind of make that case. You know, Easter Sunday is coming. We both celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. I know there's some doctrinal differences between us, but I think this is a time when we can come together as a family and celebrate together.

And I don't remember exactly how I worded it, but that was what I was going for. And yeah, so I just had this desire to be accepted by other Christians. And it's funny, but at the same time, I was fully in missionary mode when I was at work and stuff. I told everybody at work that I was a Mormon every chance I got.

And I'd give away copies of the Book of Mormon to coworkers. And then when I transferred to a different division within my company in 2006, I remember talking to somebody and mentioning that I was a Latter-day Saint. And then they told someone else in the company that I hadn't met yet that I was a Latter-day Saint. And that guy came around to my cubicle and was like, hey, you know, we do this Mormon scripture study every Wednesday morning.

If you want to come in a little early, we'll do that. You know, it's just interesting that there's like this group of Mormons doing their thing, you know, at the company I was working for. And I remember one time in a business meeting, we were doing introductions going around the table and, you know, business meeting, your introduction should be kind of focused on what's important, you know, what your role is within the company, that kind of thing. And I remember introducing myself and saying, yeah, I'm a Mormon, but I only have one wife. And I think about that now. And it's so cringy, you know, so cringy. Did they laugh at that?

Or were they kind of like, wait a minute, so Mormons do have more than one wife? It was really awkward. It was really awkward because, you know, what does that have to do with what I was doing at work? Nothing. But, you know, it was such a part of who I was that, you know, I was like, everybody's thinking about us, so I've got to make a joke about it, you know, but it just ended up being really awkward. So yeah. Michael, what about you?

Okay. So by the time I left my mission, I definitely viewed myself as being Mormon. I really couldn't separate myself from that identity. I wanted to pretend that I could separate myself from that identity because, you know, I would constantly just feel like I didn't belong in the culture.

I think that was just a huge part for several years after the mission. I'm like, just kind of felt like I didn't belong for whatever reason. But I did love the doctrine. So in a sense, I kind of felt like, you know how in the church you call everybody your brother or your sister because, you know, we're all children of God. But in a sense, I felt like I was sort of just their half brother. Eventually, the ward that I was in started to view me as kind of being a really good speaker and being the smart guy. And they wanted me to give presentations. And especially after I published my first book, A Biblical Defense of Mormonism, you know, they wanted me to present and people would ask me questions a lot more like in church and things. So it kind of softened that blow and I felt a little bit more like I'd been accepted by the ward. And I guess once that happened, you know, I was pretty much content to be Mormon in every single way. And as you know, Paul, what that led to was basically me using a huge swath of my time defending the church. And I did that online for the most part.

And you got to see that. I'm sorry that you had to deal with me as a Latter-day Saint apologist. You were one of the better ones to deal with, for sure. Just your personality and the way you handle yourself with people. And it was not like dealing with some other LDS apologists at all.

Yeah, no, I do. It's really interesting for me now to interact with LDS apologists. I do see a difference with kind of the personality, you know, that they have as opposed to what I had. But I do think that their conviction runs just as deep as mine did. The difference with me is that I think I just learned to play a part or just to be more polite about it and kind of almost act like I was open to the idea, you know, or that I was open to something else being true, like so that I come off as being more fair and unbiased. But deep down inside, you know, I really believed that even if the whole church fell apart and there was just a few of us left, I would be one of those select few, that nothing on earth was going to separate me from the church. So that's how entrenched I was with it.

And I just, you know, I probably spent every waking moment during those years just, you know, thinking about arguments that people had made and just trying to think about every single angle and how can I come up with something to beat this argument. And I remember I was actually, this is something I was really proud of at the time, but I was debating Rob Bowman Jr. in one of the forums and he ended up kind of having to tell me like, look, Michael, just because you're creative doesn't mean that what you're defending is true. And I totally took that as, you know, being like, oh, like he's basically admitting that I'm right. Like he's backing down from the fight because he can't take me. That's awesome. Have you talked to him about that since?

No, but I was such a brat. I mean, I just look back at myself. I'm like, what the crap, Michael? Like, what I think so highly of myself.

I don't know. But I remember speaking of Robert Bowman Jr. I think he's awesome, by the way. I'm just going to throw that disclaimer out there right now, because there's this secret group on Facebook with all the Mormon apologists, you know, it's called Anti-Mormonism Unveiled. But you basically talk about all the anti-Mormons there and kind of make fun of them and their arguments is pretty much what it's for. And I was like, hey, guys, did you know that there's a biblical prophecy about Robert Bowman? And they're like, what are you talking about? You know, so I pull up the Genesis account where Joseph is blessing his son Ephraim. And as former Latter-day Saints, I'm sure you remember this blessing because you basically take it to me and like, oh, his branches run over the wall, you know, like, oh, he's going across the ocean and that's the Nephites, his descendants. But it says that the archers have shot at him sorely and hated him.

And I said, guys, what's another word for archers? Oh, that's good. Yeah.

They're like, oh, my gosh, you're so brilliant, Michael. And I just ate it up. And I'm like, yep, see, like, he's an anti-Mormon, just like Genesis said that he would be. Are you still in that group, by the way? I'm not. No, I was kind of hiding out in there for a while, but I eventually outed myself and I'm like, yeah, I guess I'm an anti-Mormon. Now they're like, wait, what? You are?

Like, get out of here. So I've heard you referenced that group before, but not by name, just as the secret, you know, LDS apologists group. And so it's interesting that you mentioned the name because I was brought into a group like right when I was leaving the church. So it would have been like 2009, 2010 timeframe. And I was probably still in and I was brought into a group with that name.

I don't know if it's the original or if it's another one that somebody started because the one I was in just seemed to be one person posting a bunch of stuff. Right. It was, what was, what did he go by? You know him, Vicente.

Vicente de la Paz. Yeah. So I don't know if it was, I don't know if he like started his own where he just made lists or if that was the actual group, but I was invited into that group by him and it was in there for a while. That's different. That's a different group. Yeah. Okay. So I never was in the super secret.

Okay. I'm sorry. I thought I was part of something. This is like the Eagle's nest all over again, man.

I feel bad now. I should've just let you live that delusion, but it's like, this is like the one time ever in my life that I've been able to be like, oh, I was part of a secret exclusive club and you weren't, you know, besides the chess club or something. But, but yeah, while I was in that group too, I mean, that's when, you know, there's this, there's this huge secret plot. So a lot of us were members of this debate group called Mormons and evangelicals at the time. And we just didn't like the way that the admins were treating us. We felt like it was a, like we were being attacked all the time and, and people started kind of talking in there about taking over the group.

So, you know, where that, where that's heading because, you know, they kind of started talking to me. I was an admin in the group already, but I kind of had left because I'm like, you know what, like I think I was starting to have a little bit of a faith crisis. I was like, this probably isn't a good place for me to be.

So like, peace out. But then I found myself drawn back and I couldn't explain why, but I'm like, I kind of want to be back in that group where everybody's constantly attacking the church. And I don't know if it was just, you know, morbid curiosity or what, but I ended up going back in the group and one of the other admins added me as an admin again, without really telling the owner that he did it.

And since I wasn't official, I kind of had this rebel mindset anyway. I'm like, oh, I'm like this renegade admin now, like how fun. And so they started talking about taking over that group and they started kind of telling me like, oh, the owner's MIA, like nobody's seen them in forever and we need to get rid of all the admins and clean house and make it, you know, so it's more fair for us, Latter-day Saints.

And I totally bought into it because I'm like, oh my gosh, like I can't have them attacking my tribe when I have the power to do something about it. And so, yeah, I went in one day and I kicked out all the other admins, which, you know, is funny because I own a group now, Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints. By the way, I made that group when I was LDS and it was totally a knockoff of Mormons and Evangelicals to get people to join my group instead of that one.

So, it was very kind of a bitter thing to do. So, the owner shows up asking for his group back. I'm like, oh my gosh, he's not MIA, like he's not deceased, like he's really here and he wants his group back. So, I gave it back to him and oh my goodness, the LDS people in that secret group, they were having a heyday over what I did. They're just like, oh my gosh, this is the best thing that's ever happened on the internet, you know, which I put D. Lawrence Barksdale as my admin, which is crazy, but you know, I ended up giving it back and they ended up kicking out like a lot of the Latter-day Saints in that group. But I was really surprised because I was expecting them to give me the boot too and they kept me there. They never booted me out of the group and they all just basically forgave me and I was like, wow, you know, I can't. I wasn't expecting that and I think as a Latter-day Saint, when you're dealing with Christians, you kind of test them, you know, try to drive them crazy so that they react like aggressively almost, so that you can say like, oh, you're not, you guys aren't Christian, you know, you're not acting like a Christian. But they totally just, you know, turn the other cheek and they accepted me and I was like, man, you know, I almost feel like these guys are my clan right now more than the Latter-day Saints are and it was such a turning point for me because it just made me really respect Christians and it just, you know, I think it could have gone the other way if they'd just been really bitter towards me, but they just didn't. I mean, they just forgave me so openly, so that was a big change for me for sure.

Chris Yeah, for sure. I want to address an elephant that might be in the room. If Latter-day Saints, if there's any Latter-day Saints listening, you know, we've talked a lot about how the LDS church and LDS culture has a kind of focus on Mormon distinctives that set Latter-day Saints apart. And there's a sense in which we've each kind of described this tribe mentality, right? The Latter-day Saints were our people.

We were part of that group. We saw ourselves as set apart, as special, right, as part of the Lord's army and all of that kind of stuff. But I think there's a sense in which tribe mentality can also affect Christians of various denominational affiliations. Would you say that's fair to say, Matthew?

Matthew Yeah, I would say that's the case. The thing is, I don't have personally a lot of experience visiting different denominations myself, just because I spent like almost a year studying everything out before I decided to go to the church that I attend now. I was attending two churches for a while, but I don't really have a huge spectrum of churches where I've been to and talk to people. But talking to people online, you do see that there is kind of a tribal mentality to an extent.

And it can be either a small, you know, it can be it's an entire there's a whole gamut of how it ranges in terms of the tribal mentality. I think in Christianity, we've spoken previously about how there are these core doctrines, these core values and ideals that all of Christianity, all Christians, they can rally behind. We have the early creeds like the Apostles Creed, the Athanasian Creed, the Nicene Creed, where all Orthodox Christians, not Orthodox in terms of Eastern Orthodox, but within the realm of Christian Orthodoxy, we all rally behind these creeds or the doctrines within those creeds. And so, there is something that ties us all together. But at the same time, I do feel like there's this kind of like friendly rivalry between denominations.

And I try to keep it friendly and, you know, not too serious. I think it's okay to debate these types of things. And you'll see a lot of Christian debates about baptism, you'll see Christian debates about gifts of the Spirit, about worship, you know, church structure, like all these different aspects of church life and Christian life will debate. And naturally, when you've studied the scriptures, and you've studied out the arguments, and you've come to the conclusion that you feel is biblical, and you want to unite with the denomination that lines up with how you view scripture, you feel, at least I can understand the feeling of feeling like you're at home and feeling like this is how, you know, this is the way that we're supposed to view scripture on these particulars and I feel like this is true and that's why I'm lining up with this denomination.

But it also requires a lot of humility to recognize, you know, I don't know for certain if I'm right on all these issues. We really have to humble ourselves and remember that and remember that what matters is in Christ. But yeah, you do see kind of rivalries, some friendly, some not so friendly between the denominations and the distinctives.

And sometimes it can get ugly and I really don't like it. Especially because I go to a Reformed Baptist church, we feel very strongly about what's commonly called, you know, Tulip, the Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, there's different names for it. But the soteriological view of Reformed Baptists and similar denominations like Reformed Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed, etc. So, we feel very passionately about these distinctives or this view of scripture and how God sovereignly decrees all things for his glory and choosing his people to glorify himself and his mercy and his love and demonstrate that in the world. We feel very passionately about that because we feel it's God's truth. And I think whenever you find something to be true and something to be important, something that you hold close to your chest, you're going to be passionate about it. And when you find someone that disagrees with you, I think it's natural to find that you get into conflict with them to a certain degree.

So yeah, there can be a tribal mentality. And so, I am one to try to, I don't know if I always do it, but if I have a brother that's Reformed and, you know, we're criticizing someone's arguments on the other side, I try to think about this and step back and say, okay, we got to remember we're all in Christ. There are men who are, that I disagree with firmly about certain things and certain ways they teach certain things.

I won't mention their names specifically, but they're public figures and they go vehemently against the doctrines of grace and the Reformed theology and have real problems with them. But I also recognize that they don't really believe anything that's downright heretical, you know, they accept the deity of Christ, they believe in the triune God, they affirm that we're saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. So, even though we disagree on these things, I have to recognize that he's my brother in Christ and that I need to love him as a fellow brother. But we don't always do that, you know, we're sinful beings, even after being justified, we make mistakes and we can be taken over by pride at times. And we also get short-sighted, you know, we're still humans.

We still think our way is the best way. And it's hard sometimes for us to put in ourselves and other people's shoes and understand their situation or their understanding or their walk with the Lord. So, it's a really long answer. I hope that addresses it.

But yeah, basically too long to read, yes. Mad Fientist No, that's really good. That's really good. Michael, how would you address that elephant in the room? Michael My favorite tactics to use, especially if I started getting painted into a corner was to find something to make the Christians argue with each other. And it was really effective. Oh, you were that guy. I could be.

Yeah. I remember there's one time where I got two people in my forum to debate, you know, probably for a couple of hours. And, you know, I was back in that secret group and we were just lounging around like, okay, you know, who's making the popcorn? Basically, like, you know, it's like, we just won because we're making them argue with themselves. And I had an experience like that in real life too, because, you know, after that first discussion I had with Ed Enochs, I ended up going back there and talking to them a couple more times and I went over one time. Now, Ed was reformed and one day went over there and he had a Greek scholar with him, a Christian. And so, you know, he was all happy because he's like, we're going to set you straight now. And so, they started talking and they started telling me about predestination. And I'm like, okay, you know, so I grabbed this whiteboard and I like kind of drew a mark on it and threw the marker down, like, you know, real chaotically.

And I'm like, was that predestined? And they both answered at the same time, but they answered differently. One of them said yes and the other said no. And so, then they looked at each other and they started arguing with each other for, you know, a couple of minutes. I mean, they're just going at it and then, you know, they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, like, the Mormons are here, you know, and then they stopped, you know, and like kind of repositioned themselves. So, it just, all that stuff really reinforced the notion that, you know, there was a great apostasy and the church is fractured and, you know, it's not a cohesive unit anymore. Now, after coming out of the church and seeing things from my new point of view, I do have to say that it doesn't look like it's as fractured to me as I thought it did when I was a Latter-day Saint, because, you know, there are these unifying doctrines.

And for the most part, I feel like, you know, people on the different sides of the divide do view each other as Christian, you know, and it's not a deal breaker. It's like, yeah, it can get heated. But at the same time, I realize now that, you know, debate is a lot more of a Christian cultural thing than it was a Mormon cultural thing. Because when I was Mormon, I saw people debating, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's, you know, they're intending in anger, you know, this is the devil's, you know, they're servants of the devil or whatever. And now I'm like, no, this is just a normal thing that people do.

And I do think it can get a little bit heated. And like Matthew said, there can be some tribalism, you know, and it's like, you know, I have some Calvinists in my family and it's like, I just got out of the church and they'd be asking me, you know, all the time, like, so have you, have you become a Calvinist yet? You know, and I'm just like, really? Like, give me some time, guys.

I just left, you know, the church. And so I would just kind of like give a comeback. Like, I don't know if you, if you asked God about it, you know, something like that. But so yeah, sometimes I just feel like, you know, people are just trying to, to drag you into a certain position or, or something like that. And it's like, you know, I think I'm in the spot now where, you know, I've said in the past that I would never be Protestant, that I would never leave the church and things like that.

And it seems like every time I say I'll never do something, it ends up happening. So at this point, I just say, you know, I don't know what the future is going to bring. You know, I may become Calvinist someday.

I may become any number of things. I don't know, but I'm, I'm pretty accepting of, of any, any position, you know, as long as somebody is a, is indeed a Christian and they, they hold to, to the Orthodoxy, you know, Christian Orthodoxy then yeah, it doesn't really matter to me. Yeah.

Yeah. I threw this, I threw this question in because, you know, we're talking today about identity and that, that really goes to, as we've been talking about a person's sense of self and, and how they feel about themselves, what, you know, the view they have of, of their beliefs, their values, everything. So, I know a lot of times as a Latter-day Saint, you know, I, I internalized the way other, the way Christian denominations would interact with Latter-day Saints. And I took that at times as a personal attack because I, as I said before, I wanted to be, I wanted to be Mormon and have those distinctives, but I also wanted to be accepted within the broader river of Christianity. And you see that a lot talking to Mormons online where, you know, the question will come up, why can't you just accept that we're Christian? And, you know, the debate rages and goes on and on about are Mormons Christians? How do you define what a Christian is and is not that kind of thing. And so I wanted to throw this question in because, you know, a lot of times you'll see the argument made by Latter-day Saints, oh, you know, Protestantism is so fractured. There's 46,000 or how many ever, you know, whatever number they're throwing out these days, you know, denominations and none of you are aligned. And, and, you know, there's this sense in which they feel like, I think that, Hey, we've got some distinctives.

You have some distinctives. Why can't you just accept us as Christian? Right. And, you know, Matthew, you touched on it. We're not aligned on the essentials. And that's where there is alignment between, you know, Christian denominations with each other. And there is not alignment with Christian denominations and Mormonism. And, but I did want to throw this question in there because I think it's fair to say, you know, Hey, you know, tribal mentality can affect Christians of various denominational affiliations. I remember when I was coming out of Mormonism and into Christian church and independent Christian church, that's affiliated with the American Restoration Movement. I remember going to a Sunday morning Bible study and one of the elders at our church was in the class. And another of the elders at the church was leading the Bible study.

And they, you know, there was a discussion going on. And I could kind of sense like the church was going through a transition in lead pastors, right? The guy who had been leading the church for a lot of years, I think like 30 years was retiring and a new young lead pastor was kind of taking over right at the time when we were coming in. And so there was that transition taking place, but there was also, you know, kind of like a cultural shift taking place, which you learn kind of sometimes happens when there's a change in pastors. But I could kind of sense that there was maybe a shift taking place away from some distinctives towards a more evangelical stance because within that Bible study, that one Sunday morning, the one elder was asking the other about some of the distinctives of the Restoration Movement, like, you know, there being a view of, you know, that comes from, you know, broader Protestantism of there having been a great apostasy and baptism by immersion, you know, as being the proper method for baptism and some of the other distinctives and just kind of making the case that some of those distinctives seem to be taking a back burner and kind of where does that leave, you know, the church. And there was a discussion going on and I kind of felt like an outsider listening in because I was new.

And, but I was also fascinated because I was trying to understand what, you know, what was being talked about. And then as I went on to study in seminary, you know, I read books, you know, like Evangelicalism and the Restoration Movement where it was kind of, kind of became clear to me, there were a couple of books like that, and it kind of became clear to me that, you know, kind of late 90s, early 2000s, maybe there was a focus on kind of a shift towards a more evangelical stance within some Restoration Movement churches. And I asked a trusted pastor friend of mine about this this morning because I wanted to get his take on it because he grew up in the American Restoration Movement churches.

And he said, yeah, like when he was a youngster, like there was definitely a more of a focus on Restoration Movement distinctives than there is today. And I kind of have been wondering and thinking about this question, you know, if it's not maybe just a product of Mormonism, because we've talked a lot about how the LDS church instills its distinctives in young people, children. And I kind of wondered if that wasn't just a product of Mormonism, but maybe a product of early to mid 20th century approaches to denominationalism within the US.

And then maybe since, you know, the rise of modern evangelicalism since the Jesus movement of the 1960s, that maybe that, you know, more broadly within Christianity from a sociological perspective has kind of shifted. And I think that's probably the case. But like I said, I wanted to ask this question and throw it out there so that any Latter-day Saints listening, you know, won't feel like we're saying, hey, you know, the fact that Latter-day Saints focus on distinctives, and we all kind of had this feeling like we were Mormon, it was a part of our identity, that that's nefarious in some way, because I don't think it is. But I thought it was fair just to throw this question in there. I had a thought when you were talking, but then I lost it again. I swear I'm getting old guys. I'm sorry.

Give me a second. Please don't say that. Grand Matthew.

That does not have the same flow to it. Grand Paul and Grand Matthew. Is that kind of like Grand Moth Tarkin? Yep.

As long as he's not CGI. Well, yeah. I was just talking about distinctives. There's one quote that I really like from Spurgeon. First, I was going to share that and I clicked out of it and I lost it.

Okay. So Charles Spurgeon, he is a Reformed Baptist pastor in England. It's funny because he's quoted by many Baptists and they don't even know he's Calvinist.

So when they find that out, it's kind of a surprise. But anyway, it's a short quote and I've said it before, but it's one I really enjoy. He says, I do not ask you whether you are a Wesleyan, a Baptist or a Presbyterian. My only question is, are you born again? And I thought it was a good quote to reiterate just because I think it's summed up a lot of what we've all been saying is that I think Christianity is all – it's interesting because I think Christianity as a whole really needs a second reformation in the sense that we need to go back to biblical doctrine because so much of it is straying away from that.

And at the same time, but at the same time not sacrificing – not watering down the gospel or watering down scripture if you see what I mean. I don't know if you guys know – you guys probably know C.S. Lewis more than I do. I've only read a little bit of some of his works. But he wrote the book on mere Christianity and I hear what other people say about it.

I've read it myself, but kind of this idea of saying we need to boil it down to the basics. We need to go back to this core of Christianity and that's what we need to focus on. And I wondered and I was thinking about that and wondering if that ties into what you were saying, Paul, about the sociological shift in terms of how we view each denomination and how we share the gospel. Because I wouldn't call Joseph Smith a liar when he said that all those people back in the 19th century were fighting over each other over the topic of religion. I believe that was certainly the case.

They called it the burned over district for a reason. So, I mean, we can't just push that under the rug and say, oh no, Christians have always gotten along. We've never fought.

Everything's been great. Yeah, exactly. That's the elephant in the room. The three of us on the podcast, we talk about how we have Christian unity between us and we do. You and I, Matthew and Michael, we don't agree on everything. And we found that out as we talk, but we talk and we view each other as brothers in Christ and we treat each other with grace and try to have an approach towards one another that's humble. And I just wanted to make the point that, yeah, I recognize that maybe earlier in the last century, there was more of a focus within denominations on distinctives and maybe that's fading a little bit, but that doesn't mean that we give up biblical principles, as you said, and that doesn't mean we give up the essentials. So, just a nod to any Latter-day Saints that may be listening that, yeah, there probably has been some disagreement, but the essentials have always been a part of the faith and not just since they were enumerated at the beginning of the 20th century as part of the fundamentalist movement, even before that, the essentials were part of the Christian faith.

And if I can just jump in here too, because what that really brings to my mind is having some differences is a really positive thing, if you ask me, because I can see some of the different thought processes and I think that they're good for different people. And when I was in the church, it was a one-size-fits-all. And if you didn't completely agree with something, then it was just a nightmare being in the church. So, I think it's great to have that freedom to belong to a denomination that fits your beliefs and your personality even, and to still be that, be part of the body of Christ. Yeah.

Good. So, as you made your faith transition, did you experience a disturbance in your sense of self? And if so, what was that like? So, earlier, Paul, you said, you were kind of talking about that song, I'm a child of God. And that was one of the things that just gave me my sense of identity too, growing up is, I'm a literal child of God and all the things that that entailed, it meant like my father told me when I was young, as a literal child of God, I had the potential to become a God myself one day. And I always thought that that was really cool. I thought that that brought me closer to God.

I'm like, oh, well, I'm his literal child. But as time went on and as I came closer to my faith crisis, and I think what really brought me into it was studying grace and trying to answer the impossible gospel approach, which says that if we're not perfect, then we are not worthy of grace. And so, I was trying to be worthy and I was really watching myself and I was seeing that I wasn't perfect.

I wasn't even close to it. And I wasn't getting closer to it every day, like a lot of Latter-day Saints claim that they are. And because of that, I was also kind of looking back and it was really far and few between whenever I would receive revelation from God or feel like the Spirit was talking to me. And so, I really felt like I was a child of God, but I was an estranged child of God.

It's like, yeah, by blood I'm his child, but because I'm not worthy, he doesn't want to have anything to do with me or talk to me. I just didn't feel worthy of that distinction most of the time. And then when I started going through the faith crisis, I started to really question my identity because it was completely wrapped up in the church. I mean, I think I've talked about it before, but I'd wake up having panic attacks and just not knowing where I was or what year it was almost. I'd wake up thinking that I'm still Mormon or I'm going to get sucked back into the church. So, it was just I guess unraveling the, I want to say mind control, but maybe that's not the appropriate word to use, but just everything that had been tied into the church in my mind. And I remember calling my pastor, even a year after I left the church, I have issues trying to piece my identity back together and ended up calling my pastor and he helped me out through a lot of that. But it's just like, there'd be layers of me trying to put myself back together because I'd go through something and then I'd think that I was okay. And then I'd start falling apart again.

So, it was just a really tedious time of trying to reestablish myself because it's like, you leave the church and you're like, if the church isn't part of my life, then who am I even? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Matthew, what about you?

Yeah, for sure. I really agree with what Michael said. I can connect to kind of what he was feeling is this sense of just you feel like your entire world around you starts to – you start to see cracks in the wall and you start to see those cracks grow. And so, you try to get some spackle and try to cover up the cracks and then other cracks grow elsewhere and you try to fix those. And it's just like this never-ending – you just feel like the whole house is just shattering around you and you have nowhere to go for safety and it's just – it's like a terrifying experience. But I think it really – for me, it kind of started right after my mission because I was so pumped for my mission. It took me a long time to really love my mission because I was in France and I could – like everybody always told me, oh, you speak French really well. Like we can understand what you're saying.

Most missionaries, they struggle and I'm like, OK, cool. But my speaking I guess was OK, but my comprehension was just terrible. Like I could read with my eyes. I could see the words.

But French is so fast and the words all flow together that I couldn't parse out the words in my mind. So, like literally for six months, I would ask somebody a question on the street. They would spit out a whole bunch of stuff and I would say, oh, OK, cool. So, do you like your family?

I would continue on from where I hoped that they had answered. For six months, it was just a nightmare. So, I just didn't like it at all. I just didn't like not understanding people. But then once I started to understand, I really loved it and I wanted to stay. I didn't want to go home at the end of my mission. Coming home, it was just rough because to me, that was my whole life. That's who I was. I was a missionary and I just didn't want to do anything else. I wanted to stay out there. I've mentioned before but I still have dreams occasionally where like I'm in my dream and I wake up and I'm on a train getting off at some train station in France and like I can visualize the street where I lived in a little town called Beitouin, my first town.

And I go and meet the missionaries and we're going out and you know, talk to people on the street. Like it's still so ingrained in my brain. Like there's this part of me that like won't go away. Yeah, so like when I came home, I was begging like I went to a singles war just because like, I don't know, I didn't feel comfortable going to my dad's ward. I don't know, you know, it's kind of weird going back to a family ward. So, going back to where there were other kids my age in college, I was like, ah, this is a little bit more cool.

It wasn't super awkward like I was worried about, you know. I'd gone to a singles ward before my mission and it was really cool. So, going to the singles ward was helpful but like I was just – I remember begging my bishop. I was like, please, like just give me something to do, you know.

Like I just felt so useless. Like I just like, you know, I would go to church and then that was it and then I would go home and I just wanted a teaching colony or something, you know. And I just remember for months and months and months just begging and I never got one and it was like over a year later, I think, that I got a calling finally but at that point, I just didn't care anymore, you know.

So, because they always beat it into your brain, you know. Like, you know, when you go home, don't stop being a missionary and I'm like – I mean, I talked to my mom and my family but like they're not really interested and my dad's already Mormon so who, you know, I'm trying but I don't know what to do. So that's kind of when like the cracks first started showing, I think, in my identity was like – because I felt like that was – I absorbed that into my identity. I'm a missionary and that's what I am and I'm going to keep doing that after my mission and I really struggled to find ways to continue doing that. So, that's when this crack started appearing and I started getting depressed and I just had a really hard time after my mission and I went straight into college like, you know, two or three weeks after I got home from my mission and I was already taking, you know, intermediate calculus and intermediate physics and all these different courses that were like – I hadn't taken the introductory courses for like three years because I took a year before my mission to save some money and then I served my mission.

So, it had been three or more years since I'd done this and I had no time to prepare. So, that was stressful and yeah, it was just really difficult and then – but really when the cracks appeared when I started studying church history and I kind of had learned to trust my critical thinking skills because I'd read some of these issues that I'd read with church history before my mission but I didn't really quite, you know, I didn't really quite understand what the deal was or I was willing to take the LDS apologists answer as okay, that's a solid answer, I'll go with that. But it wasn't until several years after my mission where I really started questioning these things that yeah, you really do start to see – it's like zooming out from, you know, from a painting and you see this beautiful tapestry, this beautiful painting but then you notice a little tiny little speck in the corner.

So, you go to inspect it and you notice like an ink spot and so, you look at it and you say, oh well, you know, the painting's still beautiful, I'm just going to ignore that ink blot for now and then you start to notice more problems and you start to notice more little imperfections in the painting and then, you know, you pick up the painting to look at the backside and then it all just crumbles into pieces kind of a thing. That's how it felt like for me. It really started when I started listening to Dan Vogel, some of his videos, like when he analyzed the three innate witnesses, you know, the restoration of the priesthood, all these different things in LDS church history and he referenced all these books, he referenced – what's his name? He used to be LDS. He wrote the D. Michael Quinn, that's his name. So, he referenced D. Michael Quinn, you know, and who is favorable towards the church.

He's not against the church at all but he's not a member anymore. And he referenced all these sources and so, I started, you know, trying to find some of these sources and read them and it's just like unraveling a sweater. I just kept pulling at the threads trying to find answers and I just like – I wasn't just pulling away the thread, I was pulling apart myself to where, like Michael was explaining, you just really start to question who you are anymore because I said that, you know, I'm a child of God, I'm a Latter-day Saint, I'm a priesthood holder but then when I started finding out, well, maybe the claims to the priesthood restoration aren't really valid at all, then I said, well, okay, maybe I'm not a priesthood holder then. And then when you start finding out the problems with the doctrinal changes to both the Book of Mormon and the changes to Joseph Smith's First Visions, those kinds of things, then I start to question maybe I'm not really a child of God at all. And it's really terrifying because you have no foundation to stand on anymore because you feel like what the core of what I was, I was slowly picking it apart to where I didn't know what was going to end up at the end, you know. I was like – I was worried, I'm like, 10 years from now, am I going to be an atheist?

Like where am I going to go from here? So, it was not only where I was – like what I was discovering along the way but the fear of where I would end up at the end of it all. I tried to have faith and just trust in God and be like, okay God, well, this will just be a trial of my faith, I'll get through it, I'll be a stronger Latter-day Saint for it and it'll be like that testimony that I'll bear in fast and testimony meeting where I like, you know, I just had this really rough test of my faith but God brought me through it and that's not at all how it ended up.

But I praise God for it despite how difficult it was at the time. Yeah, that's good. I saw something this week posted by a young Latter-day Saint that we all know. I won't name him but he posted about the – I think it's pronounced the Antikythera machine. Have you – did you see the post or have you heard of that before?

I haven't. Yeah, I saw that post but I didn't read it. Yeah, so the Antikythera machine is like an ancient – yeah, it's touted as like an ancient computer, right? It's an ancient navigational system that uses the stars and it's – I've seen it used by Latter-day Saints before and the way it's used is to kind of suggest, hey, you know, this ancient computer exists and obviously it's not a computer like we have today but it's a very complex machine that was built and used a long time ago. And the suggestion is, hey, there's this ancient computer and because it exists and we didn't expect it to exist, therefore, there could be forthcoming evidence for the Book of Mormon. So let's hold on to our faith in the Book of Mormon, right?

Wait, wait, wait. Could you go over that again? Because I don't understand.

How does that – what does that have to do with the Book of Mormon? It's a giant leap. That's what it is. Exactly.

It's a giant leap. But it's – so the suggestion is, okay, we wouldn't expect an ancient computer to exist because we expect ancient peoples to have been less sophisticated than we are. But we found – archaeologists have found this Antikythera machine which is a very complex system to help with navigation in the ancient world. And because we wouldn't expect to find something like that and we did, that shows that there could be other things that we wouldn't expect to find based on what we currently know about the ancient world that we may find in the future. And therefore, we can hold on to our belief in the Book of Mormon because the evidence is still forthcoming. That's the lead. You know what?

I'm actually convinced by this, that dinosaurs are still alive today. But on a serious note, The Post reminded me of an experience I had on my mission. We used to do street contacting in – the subway stations in Budapest were obviously underground and then you would come up a couple of – either an escalator or come up a couple levels to almost street level and then you would come up on either of the four corners of an intersection on street level. Well, underneath the intersection, there was the underground and we would go down there and do street contacting because there was always tons of people passing through to go from a bus to a subway or making a transition.

And so, it was a great place to be able to talk to people, though realizing now that most of those people were rushing to work or wherever else they were going and we were probably annoying them to no end by trying to stop them and talk to them. But I did stop and talk to this one guy and he seemed interested in what I was telling him about the Book of Mormon. I was kind of flipping through and showing him the pictures that were in the Hungarian edition of the Book of Mormon of Maya in ruins with Jesus coming down and teaching the Nephites.

I think you're all familiar with that painting. And he was like, yeah, I'll meet with you guys. And he gave me his address and we went home and looked it up on a map and it was like an hour outside of the city.

We would have to take a train there and spend an entire afternoon going down and back. And so, we decided when things got a little slow that we would call him up and see if he'd be interested and we'd go meet with him. So, he was. And so, a couple weeks after I had contacted him, we went down there and he hijacked our entire, you know, we thought we were going to give him our message.

And he hijacked our entire afternoon talking about Eric von Daniken. Have you ever heard of this guy? No.

No. He's a Swiss author that he wrote a number of books, but his theory is basically that there's a lot that we don't know about ancient civilizations that they were far more complex than we give them credit for. And the reason for that is that they were taught by extraterrestrials.

And he doesn't mean little green men, like his theory is like, you know, extraterrestrial humanoids who came here, you know, astronauts from other planets who came and taught the ancients how to build pyramids and all that kind of stuff. So, this guy just hijacked our entire afternoon showing us his collection of von Daniken books and talking about it and talking about how he thinks there's probably a connection, you know, with what we were telling him about Jesus visiting America and what von Daniken talks about. And like, I don't know if you guys had experiences like that on your mission where you were just like, get me out of here, you know, but you couldn't extract yourself from the conversation without seeming like really socially rude, you know. So, you just kind of had to sit and listen until they were done talking.

Did you ever have experiences like that? Oh yeah, for sure. Oh man. Yes, I did.

Yeah. So anyway, whole afternoon wasted, my companion and I get back on the train to head back to Budapest and my companion is just jazzed up about it. You know, he's like, man, that was such a waste of time. And we didn't even get to give our message. And can you believe that guy? Like there's no evidence at all for what that guy was talking about, you know. And I was sitting there on the train thinking, man, what would I give as evidence for what I'm trying to tell him? You know, I'm trying to tell him about the Book of Mormon and I've got nothing.

And it was kind of one of those situations. And so, you know, the whole post about the Antikythera machine kind of reminded me, like that sent me on a journey to try to find evidence, right. And I came home from my mission and I signed up for the Farms Journal of Book of Mormon Studies to try to get into the Mormon scholarly approaches to the Book of Mormon and read all of the books from them. But one other thing that I did when I came home from my mission is I got into an author named Graham Hancock who has similar theory about the ancient past to von Daniken, except he doesn't take it to extraterrestrials. He takes it to the lost city of Atlantis, right? Okay, so the ancient civilizations are more complex than we give them credit for. They're more advanced than we give them credit for.

And the reason is because they learned it from the inhabitants of the lost city of Atlantis, which is gone now. So, that whole theory, you know. But I came home from my mission and I bought a couple books by Graham Hancock. One of them is called Fingerprints of the Gods, where he kind of goes through his whole theory.

And then the other one is called The Sign and the Seal, where he goes on this search for the Ark of the Covenant in Africa. And I went to a pioneer day dinner at my ward, freshly home off my mission. And I've got my Graham Hancock book with me.

And I used to take a book with me everywhere I go, which is a lot easier to do and without being socially awkward now that we have the Kindle app. But I was sitting there at this dinner reading by myself and the guy who had been my priest quorum advisor and who was now in the bishopric approached me and asked what I was reading. And I told him, hey, I'm reading this book called Fingerprints of the Gods. And I explained to him who Graham Hancock was and what it was about. And he kind of looked at me with a glint in his eye and was like, hey, that sounds pretty apostate. He's kind of joking with me. But he was like, be careful.

And I share that because it plays into identity. Because his warning is like, hey, stay within the lines of what's set out and circumscribed by the church. Don't go outside of that or you're apostate. And that experience kind of plagued me for the next 10 years as I went through my faith transition.

I didn't want to go outside of the box. I didn't want to look at that stuff as you were talking about, Matthew, the D. Michael Quinn stuff. To this day, I still haven't read No Man Knows My History because that's verboten. I've got it on my shelf. I need to read it at some point, but I still haven't because as I went through my faith transition, I was trying to read faithful LDS sources.

I was trying to get the answers from the horse's mouth. And that experience I had with that member of my bishopric was formative because it kept me within the lines for a long time because we all want to belong. And that was my tribe and I really wanted to belong. When we were on our way out and I would have conversations with Angela, Michael, you talked about when Romney ran in 2012, you wrote your book. Well, when Romney was running in 2008 in the primaries, the first time I was in a place where I had moved on from wanting to be a Mormon apologist because I didn't think I could defend it to I'm going to be a cultural Mormon and I'm going to write fiction. I'm going to write the great Mormon novel. That was where I was in my head. And I would have these conversations with Angela and we would talk about leaving and trying something different.

I'd be like, where are we going to go? I'm a Mormon. I'm always going to be a Mormon. It's who I am. It's my identity.

And so it was very much a part of me. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking, send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it. If you give the page alike, we also have an outer brightness group on Facebook where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast, past episodes and suggestions for future episodes, et cetera. You can also send us an email at outer brightness at gmail.com.

We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on Apple podcasts, cast box, Google podcasts, pocket casts, pod beam, Spotify, and stitcher. Also, you can check out our new YouTube channel and if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael, the ex Mormon apologist at from water to wine.org where he blogs and sometimes Paul and Matthew do as well. Music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adam's road. Learn more about Adam's road by visiting their ministry page at Adam's road ministry.com.

Stay bright. Flyer flies Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life and we have believed and have come to know that you are the holy one of God. The word made fresh, the risen Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. Lord, you promised that we as your church would remain upon this rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against us.

Cause you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. As the rain falls down from heaven and waters he brings it life. So the word that goes out from your mouth will not return empty, but the word of the world. Lord, we hear your word and believe in you. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. The word of God remains.