What About PRIESTHOOD? Part 1

Uh You're entering. Outer brightness How can you look upon this end there with such love? Grace overflows my cove. All of my soul and my heart have been revived in you. I'm saddest watch.

All right, Fireflies, welcome back to the Outer Brightness Podcast. With this week, we have a special guest here with us, Brianna Flournoy. She's with us for a number of reasons, but first and foremost, she's with us because, as you just heard, we just rolled out a new intro for our podcast with a brand new song. Written and performed by Brianna.

So, Brianna, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. No problem. What can you tell us about the song? What's the title?

When did you start working on it? What does it mean to you? Yeah. Um actually came as an inspiration. Uh because I was a new ex-worman and I was also in a new relationship with my husband, now husband, and we started, we had already written a song together.

And we wanted to create another one that would kind of Give um That would portray the kind of feeling that an ex-Mormon has when they come to Christ. and the transition from being Uh stare. A two being with Christ, in Christ. And uh So my husband started writing some lyrics. And he came up with this little tune and I kind of took that.

and like Created more of a song.

So that it would just, you know. as a whole Song, so it's called In Your Eyes. And it sets up the stage where you're kind of like In despair, and you're looking for hope, and then God comes in and pulls you and saves you. And that's when the chorus comes in. You hear the chorus in the intro.

And the words are: How can you look upon the sinner with such love? But Grace overflows my cup. All of my, what is it? All of my heart. Oh my soul and heart has been revived and revived.

Yeah. In you, I'm satisfied.

So it just shows that when you leave Mormonism, there is hope and there is life. And um Beauty beyond measure. Yeah, thank you. I got to tell you, you know, we started the conversation about putting together a new intro several months ago. To kick off with our 51st episode, which also coincidentally is this episode.

So, congratulations, guys. We hit 50. Um And, you know, we started talking about it, we were looking for a song that had more urgency, immediacy, and something that we could. Put some voiceover clips on. And Brianna, you suggested you had something that you were working on that you thought fit that bill.

But I got to tell you, when you asked several months ago if you could sing the chorus, Uh over over the End part of the song, I was excited to hear it. And when you sent it over the other day, I was just blown away by how beautiful it is.

So, thank you for that. Yeah. I really uh I really appreciated it too 'cause uh You know, we got that quote now from Uh, Elder Ballard, and it's so dark, it's so abusive and manipulative. Just it's a horrible quote. It just makes you feel.

you have that despair inside all over again. But then it cuts out, and you hear that music, and it's just so the opposite of that. You know, you feel that hope. you know there is somewhere to go if you leave Mormonism. Yeah.

Yeah, there's someone to go to. And that's the whole point, right? Is that the Ballard quote? He's asking, you know, what are you going to do if you leave the LDS church or where are you going to go? You know, and he's he's alluding to the question that that the disciples had for For Jesus, right?

Where would we go? For you have the words of eternal life. But He's tying that to the LDS church. And it's just interesting that juxtaposition, right? Where will you go?

We'll go to Christ, right? That's where we will go. Um And, you know, also we have we're kicking off this episode a new outro song from Adam's Road that also ties into. that Ballard quote.

So It's called Heaven and Earth, and it's a beautiful song.

So, you'll hear that at the end of this episode. Matthew, thoughts on the new intro? I don't really have much new to say. I just wanted to. Also say thank you to Brianna for doing that for us.

Yeah, I thought it was a really great song. I mean It's it's um Yeah, it's exactly the kind of tone that we want to That's great to kick off each episode to get the the tone going for for our discussions.

So thank you very much. Thank you. I do have to shine the the light on her a little bit because she's uh She's always there in the background, you know, doing stuff and it doesn't like to be the center of attention. at all. But uh, you know, both of there's two different uh musical compositions in that in that intro and she wrote both of them.

She wrote the the music that that is in the background with uh Elder Ballard and then and then the new one as well.

So Yeah, definitely. Very, very helpful for us. We appreciate it. For sure. She's provided our intro music from the get-go, and we're very.

Thankful to her for that. She's very talented. We really appreciate it. And yeah, for sure, that we wanted to with this first. First introduction for our listeners to the new intro.

Kind of give a nod to that first piece, Can I Get an Amen, which we've used from episode one on, because it is a beautiful piece as well.

So All right. Michael, you want to kick off? The topic for us, for our listeners, we invited Brianna to join us for the entire time today because we thought that it would be good to have a. Female voice and a female's experience, given the topic that we're discussing today.

So. Yeah, absolutely.

So I was filled with pride. when hands were laid on my head at twelve years old, and the Aaronic priesthood was passed down to me. Four years later, I received the Melchizedek priesthood the same way. I felt incredibly blessed to hold the authority to act in God's name. With this special authority, I had more right to preach the gospel and baptize people than any pastor on earth.

I had more power than the Pope because only the priesthood held by my church was valid. And only it could seal in heaven what was sealed on earth. With the priesthood, I could change someone's eternal trajectory and help them achieve exaltation. The priesthood offices gave me great faith that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true. I would look at Protestant churches and think, where are their apostles?

How could they even claim authority without a prophet? As it turned out, the The priesthood that I believed I held was an idol. that usurped the trust I should have been placing in God. If I gave a priesthood blessing and it worked, it was because of my faithfulness. If it didn't work, it was also my fault.

God wasn't even in the picture. In this episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast, we will be discussing one of the biggest pitfalls to leaving Mormonism. Priesthood Authority.

So, first, let me ask this first question to you, Matthew. We'll kind of go around on this, but did you? Did you or anyone that you know experience miracles through the LDS priesthood? And how do you explain that now?

So I've heard probably just as you all have, I've heard stories from people. Giving their accounts of moments where they thought that they saw miracles. Um through an administration of an ordinance or a blessing of the priesthood, the LDS priesthood.

So But in terms of personal experiences, um At the time, I think there was one instance I could really think of and remember. where I felt like It was a faith-promoting experience. that boosted my faith in the priesthood and in my calling. As a missionary, and that was during my mission. And to be honest, Um, no, I do remember where it was.

It was in uh Belgium, in Liege. It was the town I was serving in. And it was just kind of a routine Lesson that we gave to a member, they called us and they said, We'd like you to come over, we'd like to have the missionaries over. And so he kind of gave them a short lesson, but he said he wasn't feeling well. He had like a really bad sore throat, you know, kind of cold symptoms.

And so he said it was, you know, he felt really terrible, you know, and physically, he felt really terrible.

So he asked for a blessing.

So we went there, we gave the lesson. We gave him the priesthood blessing, and then we said goodbye, and everything was fine. And then the next week or two at church, we talked to him later. And he told his, he was telling us he and his wife were there, and they were explaining to us that he felt like. Within an hour or two after we gave him the blessing, he felt like all the symptoms had had been alleviated.

They didn't he didn't have any symptoms from that sickness.

So we all felt that that was kind of like an answer to our prayers or a confirmation to us that God. was working through us in the priesthood. As for how I would explain that now, there's a lot of different ways you could explain that. There's I was going to recommend there's someone named Justin Peters. And if you look on YouTube, he has a YouTube channel called YouTube, or sorry, Justin Peters Ministries.

And he is uh Oh man, I should have looked up what his condition is. But he he has a He has a debilitating physical condition since birth. Um And as a teenager, he kind of went through, tried to go see these faith healers to heal him. And none of them were successful. And so he kind of, you know, he kind of started to see beyond, you know, behind the curtain and kind of see that these were, you know, these faith healings were not genuine.

And so he's kind of dedicated his ministry to you know, to showing that you know, a lot of these people that claim to have this power to heal don't have that power. And so he talks about this. He talks about how, well, why do some people go on stage to go see? like Todd Bentley or any of these other creatures. And go for healing, and then they say that their neck pain is gone or their chronic back pain is gone.

And he explains that there are kind of like two ways. One is kind of like a psychosomatic method of healing. And one is like an actual genuine miraculous healing.

So, the genuine miraculous healing is something that is supernatural.

Something that just could not happen. naturally. For example, Jesus' ministry. He would You know, he would heal people instantly of their leprosy. He would give sight to the blind, that kind of thing, raise people from the dead.

That kind of thing cannot be explained. Um through medicine, but. The other form, like I said, the psychosomatic kind of aspect he explained is something that is possible And it is a real phenomenon, a physical phenomenon where People are expecting something. They're really expecting something, and their brain actually affects their. Um They're they're Not their genetics, that's the word I'm looking for.

It affects their body, how it functions.

So it is a real. Phenomenon where their brain can actually remove pain or alleviate symptoms, that kind of a thing. Um just by pure belief. It's it's kind of like a placebo effect, you know? Um it's similar to that.

He explains that a lot of these people who do claim to be saved or claim to be healed, that's kind of what's happening with them.

So that's a possibility. Um sorry to go through all that, but I'd really recommend Justin Peters uh YouTube channel, but Um Other than that, I mean I do believe that God s can still heal. By our faith. And I'm not saying it's outside of God's will and it's certainly within his sovereignty that he could heal anyone at any time.

So it could have been, I mean, it could have been a genuine healing, but it did not necessitate. A special Priesthood from the LDS Church to do so. That's really interesting. I guess, does that mean that I could, like, if I really believed that I could grow my hair back, that I could? Maybe.

It's too late, isn't it? Have you tried Rogan? Yes. I didn't mean to make you answer that. Yeah.

We mark that time for an edit. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. That's taste. Yeah, what's the name for Paul's alter ego?

We need a name for him. You know, we got Mr. Pibb for Michael. I don't know. I just call him the old fossil ball.

I was thinking instead of Paul Bunyan, like Paul Onion, you know, like once the onion, once you slice that onion, you know, the vapor is getting here. Yeah I like it.

Okay, Paul, what are your thoughts on this question? Yeah, so. I don't think I ever experienced Um Either giving or receiving or Or hearing about someone having been given a priesthood blessing that was a miraculous healing. I saw many priesthood blessings given. Um I saw priesthood blessings of healing given.

uh to people who then You know, a few weeks later. We were given a blessing of release and passed away.

So I think every Latter-day Saint has to deal with those types of situations where they start asking questions: you know, we've got this priesthood authority, and we're supposed to be able to heal. Um And everybody asked those questions in Elder's Quorum: you know, what happened in this situation? And you get the explanations from people that, oh, well, you gotta make sure that what you're speaking in the blessing is the will of the Spirit. If you're not in tune with the Spirit, then what you're speaking is just your will. And that's not going to result in in in a healing But I did give some blessings that Uh when I was a Latter-day Saint.

I kind of viewed as As successful. Um maybe if not miraculous. But So My uh My sister, the winter after I graduated high school, had. Gone to the institute at the local college and was. hanging out there for an evening of of I guess they were playing games.

I don't know what they were playing, but she was running and hyperextended her knee and pretty badly to the point that it sheared off part of the. Part of the top of her her tibia and vibia bone and um She called me and I went and picked her up and helped her get into the car and took her to the hospital. And my dad met us there. And you know, we were in the ER waiting for x-rays and Uh casting and that type of thing. And uh My former high school basketball coach.

And his two sons were brought in on an ambulance. They had been on their way home from a basketball game that evening and slipped off the road in the snow. And uh My basketball coach was hurt, but not terribly badly. But one of his sons was unable to move, and they were. fearful that he might be.

paralyzed.

So my dad Suggested that I go. Offer to give, you know, that he and I would give them a. A priesthood blessing. And I struggled with that because I did not like the man at all. He had been my coach my junior year of high school.

Um, we did not see eye to eye on my skills as a basketball player and uh.

So I ended up switching schools my senior year.

So I did not have any. You need love for this man at all. But I went in and asked him if You know, he and his son would. Would like a priesthood blessing? And he said, Yes.

Um, and I didn't even know if he was LDS when I asked him. I wasn't that close with them. But we gave him and his son a priesthood blessing, and his son ended up being fine, and so did my coach. He wrote me a letter. Uh A few months later, just a little while before I left on my mission, thanking me for that.

And so I did view that for a long time as like a successful. Blessing. Another one was when my son. Curtis was uh was little, he had Uh A speech development problem. And um Couldn't Couldn't speak.

The the noises that he made were just unintelligible. Noises. And we took him to sign language classes. At my uh My wife's parents, their Baptist church, offered sign language classes. We took him to sign language classes and learned sign language with him because the doctors were telling us that they didn't think he would ever be able to speak.

And so You know, I Of course, we as a family prayed for him. I gave him blessings. And then one time when he was. It's 2003, so he was just about a year and a half old. Uh well no, we'll see.

He was almost two and a half years old. We went out to. Utah to go to Yellowstone with my family. And while we were there, my dad gave him a blessing. And he blessed him that.

that he would be healed. and he would he would be able to speak and it was just a few um A few months after that. A new pediatrician came into the practice where we were taking our children and. Um Suggested that we try having tubes put in his ears because. He was convinced, given my son's history of ear infections, that If we put twos in his ears, that That would clear out his ears, and you'd be able to speak.

So we ended up doing that and.

Now, I can't get them to stop talking ever.

So, you know, view that as a success again. And then the second part of the question is, how do I view that now? Um I mean now I view it as uh Providential for sure because we weren't getting answers from doctors previous to that. But at the same time, my mother-in-law, my father-in-law. The rest of my wife's family.

All of my wife's parents' church family. We're also praying for him concurrently with. The blessing having been given to him. It's definitely a A medical success. Where we finally had a doctor that recognized what needed to be done.

But I also view it as providential, but I don't necessarily think that it was. specific to the blessing that was given? All right, thanks for sharing that. Brianna, did you experience anything like that? I mean, I know you didn't hold the priesthood, but witnessing that.

Yeah, no, not really. I I Got to see a lot of blessings like given, like when we were sick, or father's blessings right before the school year. Um And you know if you were like my my my dad would have us write down uh what we remembered from our father's blessings and like be mindful of everything that we need to do. to be successful in school and if we were to be faithful to these things and will find success. But um So I had a couple of experiences myself.

Um I just, this one just came to my mind, but there was a woman, I was still a pretty new missionary on my mission. And she was less active and she just started talking. About how, like, her mom had come to visit and and she had died during the visit and was just talking about a bunch of things and I just had this really strong impression that she's going to ask for a blessing. And then she did. She asked for a blessing.

And I kind of got this impression that I'm the one that's supposed to give it. And so she wanted assurance that. You know, because her dad wanted to come visit and she. didn't want a repeat of what happened before.

So I gave her a blessing and just felt really inspired to say, you know, like everything's going to be okay when your dad comes and visits. And so he came and visited, everything was fine, it was viewed as being. Um Being a miraculous thing. Um The way I would kind of explain that now. Is just that I think I'm pretty good at reading people.

Um I've seen people gear up to ask for a blessing before, so I really think it was just kind of me. Seeing the signs of what was going to happen and predicting that she was going to ask for this blessing. And I think a lot of that was just the feeling that I had. I wanted her to. Feel assured.

And so I think that's why I said that. that it was going to work out that way. And I think the odds were pretty good that You know, both of her parents weren't going to pass away while visiting.

So. Um But then I also had a companion on my mission. He said he had a horrible leg act or a horrible accident that injured his leg, and he shouldn't have been able to walk. He was given a priesthood blessing. Because of that.

he was able to walk again and I heard him bear testimony to that. Several times. Um I know an LDS person who claims he casts out demons using the priesthood or did on his mission several times. And then my dad. He used to have this issue where his heartbeat would start, his heart would start beating real rapidly if he drank ice water.

And so he'd ask me for a blessing and I'd do that and they would. Calm his heart down, like he would go back to normal. And so. All of this stuff. Is there all things that when I was LDS, I viewed it as being proof that the LDS church was.

Obviously, true because we have this priesthood and it does these miraculous. Things But I think there's a lot to consider now. Um And probably the most difficult. One to try to come up with a reason for is casting out demons, but I think. that it is possible.

That somebody can be a saved Christian. in the Mormon in the Mormon church. And just not be pulled out of the organization yet. And I think there is power in evoking Christ's name. And so I don't think that that is necessarily something.

that the priesthood is causing to happen I think other times it could just be coincidence when it comes to these miracles. If there was already going to be a natural healing, Because Priesthood blessings are given quite often. And in the event that there was already going to be a healing, Or healing was going to take place, the The blessing gets credit for that healing. when it does happen. And there's no way to know if it would have happened or not.

Without the priesthood blessing, but I think 99% of the time, like Matthew was saying, there's a placebo effect. When you receive one of these blessings, I mean, it just, there's just kind of this good feeling. that comes from having people put their hands on your head. And you hear, you know, people usually talk pretty calmly, pretty stoically when they're giving these blessings, and they talk like they have this authority. And they're just giving you these blessings.

And so it automatically calms you down. And I think just that effect by itself. You know, probably has some healing property.

So I don't think that there's a special priesthood at all. that is causing any of these things to happen. All right, so we'll move on to the next question. I'm going to ask you this first, Paul. What did holding the priesthood mean to you?

Did it give your family a sense of security that you held it? Yeah, so when I was a teenager. Uh You know, Brianna mentioned that her, that she would get blessings at the beginning of school year. I got those as well from my father. It was always very comforting.

You know, gave you a sense that. The coming school year would be a success. You would be able to attain good grades and. It was always a peaceful thing to have happen going into the school year. But in terms of me myself holding the priesthood, when I was a teenager, it felt like a heavy weight.

Um You know, as a deacon, a teacher, a priest, for those listeners who Maybe never were LDS and don't know. Young men in the LDS church are ordained to be a deacon at the age of 12, a teacher at the age of 14, and a priest at the age of 16.

So it's kind of like a progression that you go, that every LDS male teenager goes through. Um but but Uh in those in those uh Yeah. Particular priesthood offices, you know, you pass, prepare, and bless the sacrament, the Lord's Supper. And that was nerve-wracking, mostly because our young men's leadership would come down hard on us if we were a little bit too Maybe maybe loose with our with our Humor while we were doing those kinds of things on Sunday morning. You know, if we joked around, so Or even if we made too many mistakes with the sacrament prayer, you know, which is a verbatim prayer that you have to give.

And, you know, they would come down hard on us because you have to be respectful of these things. And the congregation is watching. And if you. What are you going to do if you mess up somebody's ability to be? Reverent in their repentance time during the sacrament, if you mess up the prayer too many times and they can't concentrate on what they need to do.

So, you know, those kinds of messages were, it just made it feel like a heavy weight. But I I kind of thought of the Aaronic priest as a preparation to hold the real thing, right? The Melchizedek priesthood. And you're kind of taught to view it that way as well. I went home teaching with an older companion, Who was my young men's president at the time?

And we would go home teaching to this single mother in the ward. whose husband had cheated on her and left her, and she was. A single mother working with a Down syndrome son. And her Her needs, both from an emotional standpoint and a financial standpoint, were far beyond anything I could provide for or even. Figure out how to meet as a teenager.

And yet you're there and you know you are calling as a teacher, quote unquote, in the. In the LDS church, is to be there and provide for that person's needs and. You know, again, it just felt like a heavy weight that I was not in any way prepared to. Bear. I mentioned the blessing that I gave to my basketball coach with my dad.

The problem with that, and it wasn't just that I didn't like the guy that I kind of protested to my dad that I didn't want to go ask him if he wanted a blessing, but also I was only a priest at the time.

So my dad. Was a high priest. I was a priest. He held the Melchizedek priesthood. I did not.

I should not have been able, according to LDS teachings, to lay my hands on that man's head or his son's head. and participate in that blessing. And when I protested that to my dad, he was like, no, it'll be fine. You know what the scriptures say. When there's not another elder present, you can help lead a meeting.

This is the same kind of thing.

So, you know, we went ahead and did it, but that left me with a lot of guilt because I felt like I had. usurped an authority that I didn't have. Um And so, for yeah, for a long time after that, I felt guilt and worried that I had brought down. God's condemnation on my head by by pretending to an authority that I didn't have. Um even though Uh you know Really, all we were doing was praying for him and giving him comfort and his son as well.

So anyway, um But when I finally was ordained an elder, it did kind of feel like I had arrived. Um There's a Bruce R. McConkey quote. I have it in one of my mission journals. I won't read it.

But it's basically, it talks about. You know, being a bearer of the priesthood and how kings and everything will be jealous of you and all this kind of stuff, all this language of trying to make you feel superior because you hold the priesthood. And yeah, as a young missionary, after having been ordained an elder, I read that and yeah, it really made me, you know, puff up in my chest and feel important.

So Did it give my family a sense of security that I held it? Um yeah, I think so. I think My children, when we were still in the LDS church, liked getting blessings if they were sick. My wife did. I know, I think I've shared in one of my.

Blog posts that is posted at water to wine.org that, um, You know, one time my wife and I were going through a miscarriage, and she asked for a blessing, and I was not able to. muster the faith to Bless her that everything would be okay. even though that is all I wanted to do. I didn't feel like that situation was in my control. And so I didn't Bless her that everything would be okay.

And as you said in your intro, Michael, you know. Then you end up feeling like, you know, I didn't have the faith to bless her. And what if things would have been different if I had the faith to bless her, right?

So you feel like a failure. But uh if if God is sovereign And in control, then what happened is exactly what happened, and what was. Uh what was uh Ordained to happen by God. And Latter-day Saints do. Reach that same conclusion when they give a blessing and it fails.

And they reach the questions I talked about earlier. They reach the same conclusion that, well, it wasn't God's will.

So, you know, in some sense, they do cop to the idea that God is sovereign. Yeah, that is true. I've definitely seen that. happen several times. It's like, well, I misinterpreted what God's will was.

You're right about what you said earlier, too. I mean, it does fill you with pride when you think about holding the priesthood, especially. You know, you think about how Yeah. People there are on earth that are LDS, much less. You know, worthy priesthood holders, and you start to think, wow, I'm really the salt of the earth.

But what what thoughts do you have on this, Matthew? Yeah, uh I've got a lot of similar ideas. I I I felt really impressed. When I was a Latter-day Saint, of how special the priesthood was. And we've kind of already.

hinted about this, but If we think about it, if we really boil it down, if we get down to brass tax, what is the difference between the LDS church, at least when we were LDS? What is the difference between the LDS Church and the rest of the world when it's the priesthood? Because I mean, you can say, well, we have the correct teachings about God, but In the end, you know, you can still teach them those things. You know, they can learn about it either now or in the eternities. But what really matters is the priesthood.

You know, if you don't have the priesthood, your baptisms don't matter. Your confirmation doesn't matter. You don't have temple ordinances. You don't have true prophets.

So without priesthood, you know, that's That's what makes the LDS Church the quote unquote only true and living church upon the face of the earth. That's what at least that's what the LDS leaders taught. when I was a member, maybe they're kind of changing how they their emphasis on things. But In my family, we weren't really active, so it didn't really play a major part in my life in terms of like going off to school or. finding a new job or something like that.

You know, I didn't ask my dad for blessings. Um I was I was fortunate enough to have my dad ordain me to um To be an elder?

So that was just a special experience for me at the time to, you know, because my dad and I were both kind of returning to activity in the church.

So it was kind of a special experience for both of us to be able to share that. Um In terms of giving our family a sense of security. I mean, like I said, my family my parents weren't married in the temple. Um So Yeah, it was a little bit different. I mean, I felt.

It's kind of a strange story, but I felt secure after having received the priesthood because before, when I was kind of returning to activity, I was just devouring lots of books. And I forget which book it was, if it was like Journal of Discourses or or something like that, but Um I remember reading Either from Brigham Young or another LDS prophet, where they said that, you know, at the Melchizedek priesthood, you have the power to cast out demons, kind of a thing. And I had read accounts of early Latter-day Saints that had had such encounters or had performed exorcisms or things like that. And so when I started reading about that, I started to get like semi-paranoid. that there's gonna be like a demon.

you know, that would visit me in the night. Before I was ordained an elder, and I'm like, what am I going to do? Like, I'm not an elder yet. You know, how am I going to cast him out? I don't have the priesthood.

You know, no one in my house has the priesthood. Like, what am I going to do?

So, that was kind of like on my mind. Um a little bit.

So that was kind of kind of interesting looking back on that now. And afterward, after receiving it. I felt similar to how Paul was explaining it. It was kind of like a burden. It was like a burden, but a weight.

It felt like. You know, like when you're carrying around a lethal weapon, you have to be conscious about it.

Okay, where is it? How much ammunition do I have? Is it safely holstered? That kind of a thing. You know, like the priesthood was something that was very special.

You had to treat it as something special, but also dangerous if you don't use it correctly. You know, like it could bring disrepute on the church or on Christ if I were to misuse it or abuse it.

So, I was always conscious about those things and about being worthy, but I think we'll talk a little bit later about. being worthy of the priesthood. Um So yeah, that's kind of my thoughts on that. Man, I really like your analogy about the gun. Because man, that is so true.

I mean, it's like It gives you security, but. It also gives you anxiety. At the same time, it's a double-edged sword for sure.

So I was thinking about this question too, and I think holding the priesthood. If I want to talk about the positive aspects of it first, it was. Proof of my worthiness. In the church, that I held this priesthood, it was a sacred responsibility. And I know that it gave my family a lot of comfort.

You know, my ex-wife. I would often ask for blessings if she got sick, or if my son got sick as a little baby. And so it was always nice to feel like we had.

Something up our sleeves in case there was ever an emergency. You know, we were never truly at the mercy. of anything because we always had This backup plan, and that was for me to use the priesthood. If it was necessary.

Now the problem with With having this priesthood, I had this extra weight. Like you guys said, there was this extra accountability. And I felt. Like if I Send That it was going to be greater condemnation. On me because I was a priesthood holder.

So I was on a higher standard. And so I often felt you know, just extra guilty. Extra condemned in my life because I held the priesthood, and I often didn't believe. That I was worthy of this priesthood because there was such a high standard. To that priest, I looked around and I saw the priesthood leaders, and I thought, man, these people.

You know, they probably never have an unclean thought. in their lives. They're sitting there with their white shirts and their ties and And they would just talk like they had everything figured out. Like they were veterans on the path to eternal glory and It was easy for them. I don't know, did you kind of get that impression too, Brianna?

What was it like with the priesthood in your house? Yeah, so I had my dad, he was the priesthood holder. Um I don't know. Kind of brought a sense of security in a way, but at the same time. There was Also, this underlying fear.

Um With him and his priesthood because I don't know, he would. Uh I would just feel like If he were to give a blessing. And there were a certain standards to follow. And I didn't keep them, or things didn't turn out the way they did. It wasn't his fault, it was my fault.

And like everything hinged on My obedience and my worthiness. And if I wasn't worthy when I received the blessing or afterwards, it's like. I don't know, there was always this fear of. shame and humiliation that would come after that.

Okay. It would always be in the presence of all my other family members and we'd always have to hold Like we'd always be watching each other. to see if we were, you know, on the Right path. And I don't know, I felt like. With The priesthood in my family, it seemed like it was like this title.

And I had to like Show extra respect to my Father. like he's royalty. And I don't know, that's just kind of my experience. You know, you I totally forgot about that. Because there's so many different conditions for a blessing actually working.

And I always thought of of this as the the priesthood holder that My worthiness would dictate whether or not the blessing worked, but I forgot that they often said that the person receiving the blessing, their faith was a factor as well.

So if a blessing did not work, then it could have been. that the priesthood holder You know, it wasn't being obedient enough, or it could have been that the person receiving the blessing didn't have enough faith. But if it did work, then it was the priesthood. You know, it was the priesthood. The priesthood always works, it always triumphs.

But in the event that it doesn't work, it's not the priesthood's fault. It doesn't mean that the priesthood's not valid, it just means that the people are. Imperfect, or it wasn't God's will. Yeah. Did you guys did you guys find that um Elder's quorum would kind of devolve anytime you would be talking about priesthood blessings.

Like, somebody would have an example of a healing. right in their family usually several generations ago Maybe the person giving the lesson would share it, and then people would start asking the questions, the guys would start asking the questions: well, what about? this and and and michael like you were saying you know That the excuses would come.

Well, maybe the faith, maybe the person giving the blessing didn't have faith. Maybe the, and then the person, the elder who's asking would be like, no, I believed they were gonna be healed, you know? And then it becomes, well, it's a, It's the faith of the person receiving the blessing, so if they didn't have enough faith, then that's that's why it didn't work. Did you guys find that? lessons on this devolved quickly into that kind of conversation.

Yeah, I think that that happens. you know fairly quickly i think you're right because you've got to start Coming up with defenses, you know, whatever you can really quick for. The priesthood still being valid because, like Matthew said. If the LDS church does not hold the authority, if they don't have the priesthood, then they're not special at all. Yeah.

I don't remember any cases where So if I understand Paul, you're saying Someone gives a story about how someone had a priesthood blessing, but they weren't healed. Is that what you meant? Yeah, I was a little bit confused. Yeah, so like A lot of times it seemed like in Elders Quorum. maybe the person giving the lesson would would share An anecdote of someone in their family generations ago that was healed.

miraculously because they wanted to give evidence of The priesthood being legitimate. And then someone in the class would ask. About a blessing that they had given or a blessing they had received. that didn't work. you know, and then then the excuses start coming out.

as to why it why it must not have worked. Right, okay. That makes more sense. Yeah, I was a little bit confused. I was like, wait a minute.

I thought the story was proving that it did work.

So I don't know.

Some switches crossed my head. I don't really ever remember cases like that. Devolving into Elders Quorum, but there are There were some weird circumstances like Got into a weird discussion. on my mission about who gave uh Adam the priesthood. Yeah.

And then it started talking about temple stuff, and then that started kind of a commotion.

So, yeah, that was kind of weird. But. Yeah, as far as that, no. Yeah, I remember having a Fairly lengthy conversation about who baptized Adam. and what it must have been like for Adam to be to have been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

With a Hungarian gentleman that was a member of the church.

Okay. Um I wanted to ask you a follow-up, Matthew, because you mentioned that you were ordained as an elder by your dad, and I was as well. And I remember. kind of like midstream on my mission. Thinking Oh, you know, I've heard all this stuff about Lines of authority.

I should ask my dad for his line of authority.

So I asked him. And he was So my dad. My dad, when I was ordained, was a high priest. But He had been ordained a seventy. When the church still had local 70s quorums back in the 1970s.

And he had been ordained a 70 by Milton our Hunter. I don't know if you're familiar with that name or not. He was a 70 in the church and wrote several books that were pretty popular. Um And so he always kind of held on to that as like, I was ordained to 70. By Milton R.

Hunter, by an actual. 70, an actual general authority, you know, first quorum. of the 70 and And so when I asked him for my priesthood line of authority, he was like, well, I don't know which one I should give you. I don't know if I should give you the Milton R. Hunter one or if I should give you the one when I was ordained a high priest.

You know, because technically a 70 is a higher. Level, right?

So It was just kind of interesting. Did you did you ever ask your your dad for your line of authority? Yeah, I did. He never had it or kept it, I don't think. I think he got it from his dad.

When his dad was a high priest. But beyond that, he didn't know. But then, when I was kind of like, it's actually funny, it's a funny story because when I was actually questioning whether to stay LDS or not, like after I kind of had, I'm not even sure if it was before my like being, you know, my experience where I feel like I was saved. I'm not even sure if it was before or after that. Because there was like a period where I was like, you know, hey, I know Jesus, you know, like.

I can make this Mormon thing work, you know? And then, like, I was trying to adjust and add the Bible into my beliefs and stuff. I was making like a Hydra monster of Christian and Mormon beliefs.

So I actually sent a letter to like church headquarters. and ask them to send me my line of authority. And so a few weeks later, they sent it back to me. And I was like, man, this is awesome. You know, like, this is really cool.

So I like I made a little tiny little card. and printed it out and like I had to laminate it and everything so I could like carry it with me, you know, because I c I felt like that was a special thing to carry. And so I still have it in my wallet as just like a memorial of, you know. The time is a lot already same. But yeah, um I thought that was important, you know, and it's kind of strange.

It's like you're saying, you know, like. If we can tie, I don't know if you have either of you guys had this experience where people could tie back their priesthood to like Brigham Young or, you know, like one of the prophets, and they'll be like, So honored that they can, it's almost like a genealogy tree. You know, like, oh, well, I'm the great, great, great, great grandson of, you know, King Henry VIII or whatever. It's kind of like that, like a priesthood, a genealogy. Did you guys ever experience that?

Well, I mean, mine actually has Brigham Young in it. My line of authority. But then it had a bunch of other people that I had no idea who they were.

So, I mean, I was just kind of. You know, wasn't that impressed with it. I mean, I thought it was cool that Brigham Young was in there. For sure. But I mean, I'm more impressed by my current.

Line of authority than I am from the LDS line of authority. Yeah. I remember when I asked my dad for his and he wasn't sure. I was on my mission at the time.

So it was over letter that I was asking him, and he was responding. And he ended up asking. Our bishop at home. Which one should you give me? And he actually didn't have.

The one from when he was ordained a high priest. That had happened. in our home ward um Gosh, I don't know. At some point when I was a kid, and he sort of didn't have that one. Um But he did have the one from Milton S.

Hunter or Milton R. Hunter. And so, um, He asked our bishop, and the bishop was like, I don't know which one you should give him. Probably the one that. That was current when you were ordained because those local 70s quorum 70s quorums were disbanded.

Yeah. So he didn't have that one.

So I did end up having to get it, get it through my. Mission office to request it from the church. But I remember that kind of raising some questions in my mind, like.

Okay, they've done away with an with an entire Organization. At the local level, what does that mean for priesthood? You know, questions that you don't really think about before you start digging.

So it was interesting. Did we lose Brianna? Just for a second, she's stopping the cats from fighting. Oh, okay. They're little monsters.

Yeah, so Also, you know, I'm I'm auctioning off any cats if anybody's interested in them.

Well, if you auction them off, she's just going to get more. Oh my gosh. Have you not thought of this? Speaking of hydra, it's like you cut off one cat, two or three grow back. Yeah.

I know. They just start like flying out of our sleeves. Like, where are these cats coming from? That's great. You're listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away.

Outer brightness, outer brightness, outer brightness, outer brightness. There's no weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Except when Michael's hanger that is, angry that is, angry that is. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings.

The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects John 1.9, which calls Jesus the true light which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be, and the light we have is not our own. It comes to us from without, thus, Outer Brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to His Son. We have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.

We're glad you found us, and we hope you'll stick around. Hey Fireflies! The final section of this episode contains discussion of sensitive topics, including sexually abusive questions asked of Latter-day Saint youth in bishops' interviews. drug addiction, and death. we wanted to give you the option of bowing out of this portion of the episode, should you so desire.

Thank you. Um all right Paul. What were your thoughts on the church hierarchy? Did it give you a sense of security? In your opinion, was it an asset or was it a detriment to the church?

Yeah, so clarifying question for you. What do you mean by hierarchy? Do you mean all of it, like from the local bishops to the apostles? Absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, all of them. Yeah. I think I've mentioned before that kind of before my mission, I wasn't really Dogmatic about LDS truth claims or even authority claims. I I was more of a pragmatist when it came to my personal beliefs. For the most part, like I had really good friendships with people who were not LDS.

And um I viewed them at the time as good kids, good friends. And so I um I was a pragmatist, you know, I didn't I didn't uh I wasn't dogmatic and uh So I kind of felt the same way about church leadership. I didn't. I didn't have a strong sense of, oh, this makes us special because we've got apostles and stuff like that. It was part of my culture because it was like all-encompassing in Utah, but I didn't feel.

Particularly attached to that as a necessity within the church, even though I. imbibed on a weekly basis the teachings that made it so. I didn't feel a connection to that. I do remember I do remember feeling good though, like when I would. Listen to conference, and I would hear a couple of voices in particular: Spencer W.

Kimball and Bruce R. McConkey. And I think that, as I think about that, it's probably because when I was younger, like really little. My dad would take me to the priesthood sessions at the Stake Center. or at the or at the uh tabernacle if we were able to get in there.

And So, you know, I think just hearing their voices. Reminded me of those times when I was little and with my dad, and felt like I was special going to this priesthood thing, this all kind of all boys club. Uh so Yeah, I felt that. But in terms of The hierarchy giving me a sense of security? I don't think so.

Um And I didn't feel strongly about whether or not it was an asset or a detriment to the church until I kind of went on my mission. I think in the MTC is where I really. You know, I was facing. Having to go out and teach people. you know something that that we were going to be claiming was the truth And so at that point, I felt a real sense of urgency to.

determine whether I believed The exclusive truth claims and the exclusive authority claims of the LDS church. And at that point, yeah, I. I became kind of dogmatic about it. But not before that. Awesome.

All right, let me ask the uh the Matalorian what he thinks. Battalorian? Yep, the massive command. Yeah. I need some work.

Needs some work. Um In terms of the hierarchy, I thought the hierarchy of the church kind of gave a lot of structure to the church. And I think it does. I think the LTS search is probably one of the most Hierarchical Structures of any religion in the world. You know, maybe Roman Catholicism has a beat, I don't know.

But you know, they've got everything from the local all the way up to you know the very top of the church. And I see that as a strength and as a weakness because I I don't know. There was someone that was posting in one of the discussion groups about how They're so blessed to have their prophets, and we're not supposed to criticize the prophets, you know, the LDS prophets, we're not supposed to criticize them or say anything wrong about them or. Speak ill of them.

So then it makes me think: okay, well, then how are they supposed to be corrected? How are they supposed to be? If they do something that's not in line with scripture, How are they supposed to be corrected? How are they supposed to be reproved? Um I guess they could do it to each other, but if they're so disconnected from the rest of The body of Christ, then Then how how is there accountability?

You're basically told to not question them.

So I think that's a real issue with the LDS Church.

So it's a pro in terms of you know, they've got they've got kind of like a military almost organization where You know, you have a chain of command. In case something comes up, you have this very structured organization to deal with it. But at the same time, it's like the higher up you go, It seems like I don't know, maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems like there's less accountability to the people as a whole. You know, they're kind of put on a higher and higher pedestal. I mean, I guess figuratively and literally, you know, at general general conference they're standing above the entire you know.

I guess they're they're still technically, you know, below, but you know, y you get what I'm saying. Um But I didn't So there is some security there, but at the same time, it always felt like I don't know. I don't know if either of you had these thoughts, but it felt like. Going back to the mission days, you know, most missionaries aspired to be the district leader and then the zone leader. And then the assistant.

You know, and when you see somebody called as a bishop or you see them called as a Uh you know as a council member. State presidency, something like that. You're like, wow, that guy's just really righteous. You know, like, he's just living his life the right way. That's the way I want to live my life, you know.

I kind of, and in that sense, I was like kind of aspiring to leadership, not in the sense of. you know wanting to Hold my power over or abuse my power over people, but because, like, you know, I want to, I want to work my way up because that's. You know, that's the way. That I can serve the Lord and things like that, and so I kind of saw it as almost like an ambitious type of thing, but at the same time, I thought to myself, I was like, well, You know, you can. You can't really.

Make yourself A bishop, you know, you can't make yourself a stake president. I mean, first of all, you got to get married, which I've had issues with. It seems like I can never make that work out. But yeah, um So, I mean, there's a lot of things, a lot of things I have on my mind about that. But I think overall, yeah, at the time.

it did give me kind of a sense of of security. But I but I do think that it's It's way over. Structured. The church has way too much going on, you know? Like when we see the early church.

Evangelist was not a church office, you know, it was just somebody who shared the gospel. There wasn't a first presidency, and then corner of the twelve apostles, and then. quorums of seventy and you know like fifteen million hierarchies you know like The 70 were just people that were empowered to go out and preach the gospel. That was it, you know? Like.

It was nothing more than that. It wasn't like a special priesthood office.

So I mean in terms of a biblical sense, yes, it's a detriment 'cause it's not biblical, but Um I kind of give the reasons why I think it's a detriment overall. I don't know, really good insight. I remember that too. being a missionary and wanting to be the district leader and And then wanting to be the zone leader, and then actually becoming a zone leader and being like, I hate this. Why did I want to be a zone leader?

Like, I want to go back to being a district leader because. Zone leader was too much paperwork. which I hate paperwork. And I loved, you know, kind of teaching the other missionaries. how to how to do stuff.

So district leader was much better for me.

So yeah, that looks a little interesting. Thing you brought up. Totally forgot about that aspect of being LDS. Yeah. Okay.

That's good to know that. The Z L is all paperwork. Because I made it to DL and I hated that. But I was also uh branch financial clerk In a small branch where the finances were like four months behind.

So I spent a lot of time with the branch president. Trying to figure out, okay, do you have a receipt for this funeral that you bought flowers for? Do you have a receipt for, you know, trying to get the books in order every Sunday and Tuesday night? Um So, yeah, I felt like district leader.

Well, I guess it was two different callings, but yeah, I hated that time of my mission. I stopped aspiring to leadership after that point. Yeah, there's certain leadership callings where it's just like Why? You know, and I was in an Elders Quorum presidency for a while too. And I felt really honored to be in the Elders' Quorum Presidency.

I'm like, this is really cool. This has never happened to me before. But then we'd have these long meetings on Thursday nights that would just. Go for Three or four hours. And my wife at the time would be texting me, like, when are you coming home?

I'm like, I don't know, never. Yeah, Brother Johnson has been teamed up with Brother Hansen as home teachers for. Four months, and they haven't seen any of their families. Maybe we should split them up and put them with somebody else. Maybe that'll help get them going with that kind of meeting, Michael?

Yeah, yeah, that kind of meeting. Yep, let's put all these elders together and find them companions. Um But I remember one time I was in a ward with one of my friends. And we went to the elders corn president, and I'm like, we're like, why don't you just make us companions? You know.

We'll go. Home teaching because we know each other and we get along. And he was just kind of at the point: like, well, we have really dismal numbers.

So, sure, go for it. It's pretty awesome. Do you have any thoughts on The hierarchy. of the church three. Mm-hmm.

Anything to add? Hmm. I can't think of anything. Um I was going to mention too, like, uh, I always thought it'd be interesting because I was part of a couple singles awards. I I always wondered what those elders quorum, you know those elders' presidency meetings were like.

It's like Okay, you know, Sal, you know, because everybody's single, right?

Well, I think Sally would be a good choice for Bobby, you know? You know, like awkwardly trying to, you know, pair people up. Yeah. It's more like we can't have we have we have to break them up because we can't lose. We can't lose our ward mission leader.

We can have no replacement. They're all going too fast. I've got a sidebar kind of question. Um With regards to your like your local priesthood leadership. Uh because we just asked the question if we viewed The hierarchy as an asset or a detriment to the church.

And You know, there's always the claim made that the LDS priesthood is superior to anything else in Christianity because it's a lay priesthood. Nobody's getting paid for what they're doing. It's volunteer service. It makes it better. It makes it more pure in some way.

What was your experience with your local leadership? Did you? Did you have them on a pedestal? Did you have experiences with them that? Made you realize that they're just like you and me?

What was your experience?

So I'll go ahead and answer this kind of with the other with my own question too, but I viewed the whole hierarchy. Really positively. You know, like I kind of said in the introduction to this episode. Nobody else had prophets or apostles. And Even if I didn't always agree or find their talks super inspiring, just the fact that they were there.

Gave me something to boast about to everybody else. You know, like, well, I have a profit. We have a prophet in our church, and my cousin asked me one time, Well, what's so special about that? I'm like, I don't know. Like, how can you even ask me a question like that?

Like, what's not so special? about that. I felt the same way about the local leaders as well. I always had really good bishops. My whole life, you know, people that seemed really down to earth and that were easy to get along with.

I always felt like they were inspired and gave good advice. And that they were there to help me grow and to listen to my problems. And so, yeah, I always put the local leadership on a pedestal myself. What do you think, Matthew? Could you repeat the question?

I've kind of forgotten. Because I thought I answered. How did you view local leadership? Did you have them on a pedestal, or did you have experiences with them that kind of made you realize they're just kind of? Normal guys.

Yeah, that's a good one. Um I always had a pretty high view of my local leaders. There were a couple times where Um I had bishops that seemed very stern, you know, very I won't say cold, but kind of. Mm. How would you say?

You know, less welcoming or less warm and inviting than some of my other bishops were. Um But I always seem to have you know, I seemed to have respect for them, especially because I knew how much time they were putting into their callings, especially bishopric. How much time they were putting into it, how much they were spending time away from their families to serve here, and how much difficult it would be for their families.

So, I always had a lot of respect for them. And even after they were released from being bishop. You know, you kind of see them. I don't know about you, but uh it always seemed kind of like their retired bishops and retired state presidents or whatever, they seem like You know, like they're still, they're kind of like the trumps of the spiritual world. You know, it's like.

They've made so much money, you know, they can retire now, and it's like they're just like a spiritual powerhouse. That's in your award. That's not part of the leadership anymore, but they're still there, and you can kind of glean. knowledge and stuff from them, you know what I mean? Um So it's like They're still kind of, they still hold a higher status, you know.

I mean, people, Latter-day Saints, still call them bishop, even if they've never been a bishop for 20 years. You know, it's like a title that stays with them forever.

So I mean I think in general the idea is membership views them as that calling as something special Yeah, that's true. And what you just said reminds me of kind of why I'm asking the question. Yeah, there's that whole status thing where they remain bishop forever. I remember when I was younger. Our ward was going through a changeover, or had gone through a changeover in Bishop.

And it had been it had been several months, and the prior bishop walked past my mom and I while we were sitting in the in the foyer. And my mom was like, hey, bishop, you know, and. They talked for a little bit, and then when he walked away and left, I asked my mom, I said, Well. He's not bishop anymore, so why are you calling him bishop? And she said, Well, you always call them, they remain a bishop forever.

You know, you always call them bishop. Um But I also remember, you know, I had some experiences with local leaders that You know, there's this whole Kind of mythology that goes around with local leadership in the LDS church. Oh, they're inspired, right? The callings that you're asked to perform are inspired. They come from God.

These men pray over them, and when they Invite you to serve in a calling, it's something that you shouldn't turn down because it's a calling from God, right? And um When I was when Angela and I were first married, um You know, we had two young children. And I was working, she was working, and uh. She was doing medical transcription, and there was a period of time when the Volume that she Had been working, was severely cut back. And so our income was, and we were really struggling to try to make rent.

And um I remember going we went to our bishop to ask for assistance. And he turned us down. He's like, no, he's like, let's look at your finances. And we went over them. He's like, I think you make enough that you don't need.

assistance but we were like barely able to to make rent and get food on the table. And I remember being really angry with them about that for several weeks. Uh until I finally just had to go and Admit to him that I was angry about it and ask for his forgiveness for being angry with him. Um And he then called me to be the ward mission leader. And You know, I picked up two jobs.

a full-time job during the day and then A part-time job at night. And so I was away from my family. My son had just been born, and I was away from my family. you know, 18 hours a day. And I was trying to serve as a ward mission leader.

The missionaries in the area were really struggling to try to find time with me. because I was working all the time. Um And I remember one Sunday morning, I had to go to ward council. But we only had one car.

So, you know, I called my bishop and I said, I. I won't be able to make it to Ward Council. We only have one car.

So if the family's gonna come to church, I've got to wait for them until they're ready. you know, because they're not coming to church at seven in the morning. For Ward Council.

So he said, Well, I'll swing by and pick you up. You know, and so on the way to the church, I remember we're having this conversation, and he was asking me about. Serving as World Mission Leader, and I was explaining to them the difficulties I was having. You know, I'm working two jobs, I don't ever have time to see the missionaries, they're frustrated with me because they're not getting what they need from me. And he was like, and he admitted, he's like, well, you know.

Uh He's like, that one probably wasn't inspired. Yeah, but Yeah. I was just like, what? What are you talking about? That one probably wasn't inspired.

I mean, I probably could have told you that, given what I'm experiencing, but. Wow, I can't believe you just admitted that to me. And I wasn't board mission leader for very much longer after that.

So. You just reminded me of a crazy story, Paul. In the singles ward. There was this young lady that was, she was called to be the ward. Pianist.

And she accepted the calling. But she had all this anxiety, and they kind of asked her, like, why? And she said she didn't know how to play piano. And then the bishop was just like. Oh my gosh, they like totally just released her right away, but it was just like, um.

That one wasn't. That one wasn't inspired. But I was kind of thinking, too, because I didn't realize you were a ward mission leader, too. But this is just kind of a funny story: ex-ward mission leader to ex-ward mission leader. I remember I was sitting in Ward Council.

one week and and they were telling everybody their budgets Right.

So it's like, oh, the young men, you have this many hundreds of dollars, the young women have this many hundreds of dollars, the elders' quorum, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm like, so, Bishop, What's our budget? for the mission And he just smiles at me and he starts chuckling and he's just like Zero. I'm like, wow. It's like you would think that missionary work would have a higher priority, but apparently not.

It doesn't cost any money to shake down members to try to give them to give you their friends' names, Michael. Did you want to comment, Brianna, on the local leadership? Yeah, um Well, one thing that I kind of just experienced as a girl growing up. And uh with all that, I Remember going in for like interviews. A lot.

Um It started from right before I got baptized. I got one interview there and I remember Uh Just when I was really young, just Right when I was before I was eight and Right before I became a young woman. at the age of 12. I remember sitting in there, and I don't remember. The exchanges that happened in there, but I do remember.

Afterwards. coming out of there and I was in tears. And I don't remember why or what happened. But I would just always be afraid. To go in there and to talk.

To these leaders for some reason. Um and I remember I had like a certain phobia. Uh And I still have it, but I would. Try to talk about it too. I tried to talk about it with one of my bishops.

When I was older. Because it was getting worse. Um and then Yeah. I thought that maybe if I opened up about some of my struggles. even though it doesn't have anything related to do with sin.

maybe I could feel comfortable. In talking to them because I had no idea why I was having so much. a hard time talking to them. Um So I talked about my phobia and Um turning worse than before. And he would ask me more probing questions and He tried to allude it to something sexual.

And It made me feel very uncomfortable. Um And ever since then, it just with that bishop, I We get pulled in. During seminary. And he'd be asking me questions and they would all be sexually related. Um and very probing.

And I was always very afraid to go back to church, but I had to. keep going. I have to and my dad especially, he was in very close contact with my bishop. He served with him. And they would talk all the time and They were good buddies and My dad would be like you tell the bishop everything he needs to hear.

And if I find out that you don't, like, there's going to be consequences and There would be a lot of threats. Just kind of hidden. in the behind the scenes.

So, this is one of the reasons I'm really glad that we have you on this episode, Brianna, because. You know, this topic, you know, priesthood in the LDS church is a very Man-centered topic, typically. And I wanted to bring. The woman's perspective in on this too, but from your perspective, would you say? That the priesthood was used as a tool to control.

you or control people in the church. I would say it would be there for more compliance and Um Yeah, and I really struggled then too when my father had cheated on my mom. And then we found out about it, and my mom tried to bring it up to the bishop, and she had to sit down with him. And my mom would tell me about it afterwards and say that the bishop was basically. telling her that it was her fault that he would go down these paths.

So I'd be very angry with the leadership and Yeah, it was around that time. I was a teenager in high school and I was just already kind of like questioning authority at that point. And that really kind of Tick me off.

Okay. Yeah, I'm really I'm really sorry you went through that. Had to be terrifying and and very difficult to deal with as a as a young woman. Um And I know you're not the only one. In the LDS churches, who has dealt with something like that.

Uh it it kind of reminds me of um When I When I was Uh Pretty newly Christian. Um I had My there was a A friend of my son who lived in our neighborhood. And I knew his parents, you know, because they lived nearby and our children had been friends for several years from elementary school on. And um I knew that This kid's parents were going through. A separation and heading towards divorce.

And I also knew that this friend's dad had. You've gotten hooked on painkillers, you know, the opioid epidemic in our country, and um. He was really struggling with that. And. the church we we attend was having men's breakfasts.

on Saturday morning. And I decided to invite this. this kid's dad to come with me. um to these breakfasts and so he started coming with me and it It was really good for him. To do that.

He had several months of pretty consistent church attendance with us and men's breakfast attendance with me. He was bringing the boys. Um And then one day we got a We got a call that um you know asking if we could We got a call from the police. asking if if we knew These two boys and we were like, yes. Um they asked if we could uh Come and get them.

Uh from Their house and keep them at our house. as a safe place until their mom got home. And So we did that and uh My my friend John had had overdosed. and his sons had found him when they came home from school that day. and got off the bus.

And I remember. It blew up my world. Because he was coming to church, he seemed to be doing better, was starting to attend some meetings. I remember just kind of being in free fall and reaching out to one of my. Pastor Mentors at the church.

And asking for some counseling. And he said, you know, I would love to counsel you. On this, because of who you are and our mentor-mentee relationship, but he said, I'm not equipped for this. We do have people who are equipped. as counselors, trained, educated counselors.

And he gave me a number of someone to call. And I remember just kind of being blown away by that because. Uh I mean, I know there's LDS social services, you know, and I never really had a situation where I needed to. To reach out for that. But, you know, there's a lot of situations in the LDS church.

I went through some things with.

some things my dad struggled with that We're He people tried to counsel him. Priesthood leaders tried to counsel him at the local level that weren't equipped to deal with what he was dealing with. And um You know, so it kind of blew me away that in Christian churches they refer you to someone who is. educated and trained as a as a licensed counselor. I I thought that was really good.

Yeah, that's a big difference for sure. Matthew, did you have anything you wanted to add? Did that or Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your stories. We thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We'd love to hear from you.

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Music for the Outer Brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flornoy and by Adams Rode. Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at Adamsroad Ministry dot com. Stay bright, Fireflies. Lord, to whom shall we go? You Have the words of eternal life.

And we Be happy. And I've come to know That you are. The whole Holy One of God, the world made fresh, the risen Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is indecay.

But the word of our God through ages remain Lord, you promised that we as your church would remain upon this rock, and the gates of hell will not prevail. Against us, 'cause you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is indecay, but the word of our God through ages remain as the rain falls down from heaven and waters the earth, bringing it light.

So the word that goes out from your mouth will not return empty, but those What you desire, Lord. We hear your word and believe in you. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of our Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay. But the word of our God through ages remain of God remains.