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The Mormon Chameleon, Pt. 2 (Matthew's Article)

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December 27, 2020 12:01 am

The Mormon Chameleon, Pt. 2 (Matthew's Article)

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December 27, 2020 12:01 am

In this episode, we finish our discussion of an article that Matthew wrote for Beggar’s Bread. The article was published in two parts, and here we focus on Part 2. We discuss the challenges LDS have integrating what past leaders have taught about perfectionism with the more recent focus on grace within LDS discourse, and how the lingering teachings and practices related to exaltation challenge their ability to so integrate.

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Is all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life was the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.

We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon all of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son.

We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening to our greatness podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of sound brightness brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's angry that is angry that is angry. That is a Matthew the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan back fireflies. This week we are focusing again on the article by Matthew that was published on by your spreader entitled the Mormon chameleon the sleeper focusing on the second part of that article and enjoy our conversation as we saw in part one of the series of the Mormon gospel is impossible because a latter-day St. can never really have an absolute assurance of their salvation, response to this observation by outsiders is that some latter-day Saints who say it isn't about obedience to all the commandments, but instead is just about doing your best. However, this is what the LDS Scriptures teach whatsoever as Mormon prophet Kimball said in his book the miracle of forgiveness which we are covered in some detail, part one Jesus calamity perfect in Matthew 548 to mean you must actually read yourself of sin and that no commandment has been given to man that cannot be kept. Not only is this Mr. Kimball's interpretation.

In his book, but this concept is also taught in the book of Mormon and is often used by LDS mission of these members and missionaries quote and it came to pass that I Nephi since my father I will go and do the things which the Lord has commanded for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments of the children of men save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commanded them."

As for the book of Mormon first Nephi chapter 3 verse seven. Thus, if God commanded you to be perfect. You really can achieve it. LDS will say they can't do anything without God's help, but it still ultimately lies upon their shoulders to achieve it. LDS coaches also say that if you repent of us. Sin and return to it. The guilt of all your former sins returns upon your head" and I verily Esan to you.

I the Lord will not lay any since your charge, go your ways, and sin no more. But unto that soul who sin, and shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." And that's doctrine and covenants chapter 82 verse seven.

So according to LDS doctrine. Not only are you enabled to keep all of God's commandments. You must keep them all every single one of them and if you break any of them than the guilt of all the sins you've Artie repented of come back upon you.

Thus you can never truly achieve a state of forgiveness or amended relationship with God because humans are sinful creatures of sin.

Many many times every day. Those who deny this.

Don't really understand the absolute holiness of God or the depravity of man and their sin. Even a lustful or jealous thought is a sin against a holy God. Everything we do is tainted by sin. There is no complete freedom from the grass, the grasp of sin in this life.

Thus, there is no true and lasting forgiveness. According to the LDS gospel. So to summarize, the oldest gospel according to their own materials then is faith in Jesus Christ.

Repentance, baptism by water for the remission of sins receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands of someone with priest authority receiving other ordinances such as priesthood for men temple initiatory's or washing anointing temple endowment celestial marriage or temple sealing for husband and wife engineering to be faithful attend sacrament meetings fulfilling your church callings, etc. striving to reach for perfection by working and keeping the covenants you made and keep all the commandments not just to the best of your ability, but striving for absolute perfection, knowing that God actually makes it possible for you to achieve perfection in this life, since he cannot give you a commandment you cannot keep. According to first Nephi, 37 if you do all these things then and only then you might have a shot at achieving exaltation.

Does this sound too radical to ridiculous they cannot possibly believe all this he may say well if it sounds like I'm misrepresenting them. I will quote the list of directions for achieving exaltation, giving given by the LDS teaching church manual gospel principles which is the book they used to teach aspiring and new members of the LDS church. The basics of what they believe in chapter 47 titled exultation. Pages 278 to 70's to 79 it says thus quote to be exalted. We first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that fates the end of our lives, our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments. He commands us all to receive certain ordinances. We must be baptized must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost brethren must receive the McKissick priesthood and magnified our callings in the priesthood must receive the temple endowment.

We must be merry for eternity either in this life or the next. In addition to receiving the required ordinances. The Lord commands. All of us to love God and our neighbors keep the commandments. Repent for wrongdoings search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them attend our church meetings as regularly as possible so we can return renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord have family and individual prayers every day.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example study the Scriptures listen to and obey the inspired word of the modern prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and to learn to follow direction in our lives." So in that same chapter on page 279, it states quote the Lord has said if you keep my commandments and endure to the end. You shall have eternal life which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God, which is from doctrine and covenants 14 or seven Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith said if we can will continue in God that is keep his commandments worship him and live his truth, then the time will come when we shall be based in the fullness of truth shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day which is doctrine of salvation 236" so could be any clearer and the salvation which is defined in it by the LDS as eternal life with God having a fullness of happiness and glory with our eternal family give any clear the salvation by this definition, according to the oldest gospel certainly does depend on you, your faithfulness, your works, your struggles, your efforts to become perfect when Christians point of the grace and the death of Jesus Christ, and across is insufficient to grant eternal life.

According to Latter Day Saints and that you must provide your own works of obedience to receive eternal life. We are often accused of misrepresenting them, but do these quotes from the other stretches own resources, which can easily find on the website or by an LDS bookstore provide enough evidence for our case. Does this article gospel sound like good news to you to spend an entire life yoke with an immense set of commandments and covenants they must keep perfectly according to your own faithfulness or else you will receive a lower kingdom of glory. This is the exact kind of religion that Jesus came to abolish the Pharisees and other Jews believe that it was their devotion to the 613 Commandments in the law of Moses that made them right before God, but their hearts and devotion are far from him who gave the law as a schoolmaster to bring Israel to the true Messiah. They were devoted obedient, but they put their tradition on the same level of Scripture. They did not keep everything perfectly as it should. Jesus said of them that they are like whitewashed tombs which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones in every impurity in the same way on the outside. They appear to be righteous, but on the inside they are full of hypocrisy and wickedness, which is Matthew 23 versus 27 and 28 expecting so me ask you this. In this article you quoted quite a bit from LDS leaders both past and present that Ellie is teaching materials are annually as teaching materials to show the LDS are instructed that perfection is required. Why did you do that anytime we say while this require perfection require perfection.

No lottery schism cells rip Sentinel say like no were not saved by works, we see the grace is required and alumni get very defensive and I'm not saying that LDS believe that that they of their own works alone are saved but it's also wrong to say that there saved by faith alone or grace alone.

They certainly believe the grace is important there and they're not true. Palladian's Pelagius was a was someone in the past. You said that man is basically good and capable of obeying God by his own works without grace. So were not saying that the Latter Day Saints art pure and truly Palladian's they still believe grace is necessary, but in the LDS gospel.

Grace is not sufficient.

So we have to really point out that perfection is an absolute requirement and that not only as a requirement, but that their leaders have taught that it's achievable because if you merely just try to go backwards like were saying in the previous episode only say, well, grace is important to me commences is important, but really just gotta do your best and that's all it's not all you gotta do in your gut, it's good enough but really it's it's like no and in and no uncertain terms as LDS church through its various leaders has said multiple times. Perfection is something you can achieve even in this life and it's something you need to strive for yet so something current comes in my head. 201 to say a lot of times these leaders are fallible man and they may have said something that isn't true, but I think there comes a point when enough of them have hammered in a message that it just can't be ignored and you can't continue to stay longer distance just fallible. United if they can go and they can quote from these early church fathers. After the apostasy supposedly happened and still promote a message that they spoke and they certainly have to take seriously what their leaders have said and there's not apostasy because because these men are still speaking Canon basically it really is mindset of the speak is Scripture and so this is very serious and and I think it's been another level euros spoken of so much that goes in the question are the earliest leaders able to accurately receive revelation in the first place. If this is any of them have been wrong. So those are just thoughts that they came to my mind out of the any other thoughts all covered. This is not talk a little bit about my experiences with my mom before she passed and I know Dan covered it on our recent episode where we had Dan Briand on his wellness discussions with my mom and especially to the time when she was close to passing and we had a lot of conversations about this. This particular difference by the you are either saved by grace alone through faith alone or you saved by grace, plus your own works and striving for perfection and in one there is true hope in the other bidders the feeling that you never truly know whether you're saying to my mom expressed that to me several times that she didn't know if she had done enough for exultation and her fear was that because my my father and she had been sealed in the temple when they were married that if she had not done enough then there there ceiling would not be ratified by the Holy Spirit of promise and therefore she and my father would not been together in inhabitant and it's interesting that you thought that the whole reason I'll be with Jesus. The hope is I'll be with my husband or my wife and you can see in some of these subleased details of the gospel just as different, yet you struck a nerve with me to discount ceilings and out of the three of us on the only one that is had a temple sealing become nullified and you know when I got married in the temple like okay what I've got you on this eternal ceiling and you know this is to make my marriage stronger because it sealed by the priesthood.

But that is as the bird went on, we had struggles.

It really felt to me like it was all on me. I need to be a better husband. I needed to try harder when I left the church in my leaving and taking out my records nullified that eternal marriage.

It really just put that feeling on me like this sound.

The ceiling was. Not that strong. It was just it was like paper.

Basically it's a piece of paper. This, it doesn't have any real strength to there's a lot of parallels to that in my opinion, with God's promise of eternal life in Mormonism because it's conditional and it does require our perfection are total perfection. The earliest Bible dictionary still says that that that salvation requires each total total effort on grace requires total effort on the part of the recipient to receive it. And because of that it makes grace not sufficient.

Like he said that it makes it efficient. So you really, really good points there anything else you guys wanted to add to that not correct.

You also have a ceiling nullified okay and that happened when we as a family sent a letter to have our names removed from the records of the LDS church and you know, a lot of times I talked Latter Day Saints and they know my situation that I've left the LDS church will try to send to media grace that the LDS church does not extend to which is the sale. I think your I think you're still a good person and I can tell you believe in Jesus Christ.

So I think God will judge you more in the end right to try to give me that that grace. But when I when we extension our letter of resignation we received back a letter that made it clear that all of our ordinances and any promises. Attached thereto are null and void and so you have the LDS church without letter and of course we knew when we sent our letter.

That's what they were doing but they made it clear in response that that is what you are doing you are severing yourself in the church in Bend.

Matthew was touching in part one touching on the part one, you know, when with that? How would you respond to a large extent, that was just excommunicated because of sin. Someone who believes in them lose their name from the records of the church.

The other stretch is in the same boat right though the ordinances mean nothing now and and so this is a situation where it's interesting that Latter Day Saints try to extend that grace of Christ to the church does not just find it interesting and I do think it is becoming more of a wider void between the church itself and what the members think you seen a lot with a lot of members now believing that it is grace, and it's Jesus himself, but that doesn't erase the fact that the LDS church has a doctrine that goes against that and that the church itself is false. Even if some of the members in the church are starting to embrace something that looks closer to the biblical gospel enjoyment of this this next question because the appalling kind of using the word exultation here, but messy.

Throughout this article, you use the terms exalted in exaltation.

Should we take some time to unpack those terms and compare the way Christians speak about salvation and previous episodes how terminology is really important when talking with Latter Day Saints. So a lot of times christens will just say salvation is by grace and Mormons will say amen and we believe that salvation is by grace, but it's a little bit of a equivocation there. There is two different definitions of salvation being user so typically what Christians are talking only say salvation is they mean being redeemed from your sins being saved from the punishment of sins which is eternal condemnation. It's being united to Christ is returning to the presence of the father so it's you know it's it's all salvation can be. You can talk about specific aspects of salvation.

If you want to because there terms of time this past present and future aspects of salvation but broadly speaking, salvation is having the promise of eternal life with God eternally. So that's what Christians are usually talk about salvation sometimes are speaking specifically about.

Are you saved in a sense of having been justified.

Have you been declared righteous through faith alone in Christ alone. So when you're talking letter saying sometimes you you can you salvation because Mormons are Latter Day Saints will say that I believe that everybody is saved when they say that word saved and they mean they're saved from death because through the atonement of Christ. Everybody will be resurrected so that means that W saved from physical death that they won't necessarily be saved from spiritual death.

So that's why I tried to technically use more often exalted our exaltation because Latter Day Saints theology equates exaltation with eternal life meaning.

Returning to the presence of God having the fullness of the presence of the father and all the blessings that he is promised so when Christians say salvation.

That's probably more closely tied to but it's not exactly equal to the LDS concept of exaltation or eternal life with the father so that's why I tried to refer to LDS salvation Atticus exaltation specifically versus when Christians were were refute referring to return to live with God. We call it wheat we sometimes usually Scott salvation so out that Hannah clears up a little bit you think it's really good especially for somebody who's never been LDS to kind of understand that because it's really easy to just work were used to just using the work salvation and throwing that around. And until Latter Day Saints got a lot of different layers 11 and a lot of different meetings. I personally think try to use the term eternal life. The most when I'm talking to Latter Day Saints discussed. Sometimes I get a weird look right time on exaltation when it definitely they know what I'm saying there is no no question about it. So it is useful there for sure but I think it also has a lot to do with becoming a God and going down that path invoke to say when you're not you believe in, but at least will eternal life. It's something that that I believe in something they believe in and it is a higher level than just salvation. Units can document being the father in the sense presence in crazies like the doctrine and covenants. If he does remember this when it talks about three different kingdoms. It talks about the celestial kingdom which is the lowest heaven you'll even get to be in the presence of Jesus or heavenly father in the celestial kingdom. And yet it uses that word salvation, it says that those who go there are errors of salvation and in our mindset. It's like getting wet stats because how can you have salvation and not even be in Christ's presence and so I think it's brilliant that you made that distinction because it is definitely one that need to be made because it's it's so complicated between our two different languages that we speak now going to just thoughts on something so even with the term eternal life is talk about Michael, there are still some questions I think. So if you go to D&C for the resection of this but one is talking about eternal punishment, right, and it's making the case that eternal punishment is God's punishment and it kind of redefines eternal in a way that is different than translation of the Hebrew word alarm right insert redefines terminal to be of a certain duration. It's not infinite is not eternal in the sense that Christians understand eternal end and it does that, with regards to the punishment of hell right it's it's God's punishment, but is not everlasting and so it's interesting if you take that same really. Definition of eternal to the term eternal life. What does that mean does that mean even in the afterlife that there is not full assurance we think what I think the most obvious art making that connection is a logical connection to make this kind is usually when they say eternal life.

It they're just referring to life in the celestial kingdom because it says in the Bible. This is life eternal, to know no no the one true God and he sat but in line with what you're saying. I mean, that's true. There never is an assurance even in the book of Mormon says that God can fall from stopping God if if his justice is destroyed or if he changes she would cease to be God says it twice that I know life is as good as they define it.

Eternal life is the type of life that God lives if God were someone who has been exalted stops living that type of life. Nonsense is this is an interesting thing to note in their language. It isn't a letter to usually tell me like their apologists will say well that's that's crazy. God can't stand mentally is hypothetical right by me to give specific points for what would cause that to happen in my my argument is always been that if you take a possibility and you extended through eternity. It's not a possibility anymore. It is a certainty that at some point, but not Mormonism will fall from his doctor brings us back to our opening point from part one of Matthew's gospel are open to question. Why is it so important to kinda tee up with the nature of God when you're talking Latter Day Saints. Because if God could potentially fall right and then the Latter Day Saints apologist responses below what God can't stand at six hypothetical like you said Michael then if it's just hypothetical than what the Latter Day Saints apologist is saying is that God is God by nature, which completely nullifies the whole Latter Day Saints system, and it ended and you reach a point where the Latter Day Saints apologist, agreeing with the Christian where they would say yeah.

God is God by nature and didn't become God, yet is always a good place to to get to with the Latter Day Saints is anything, just couldn't stay.

You know what you and I agree with them every night before where they would say that so like will. Maybe God you know or maybe wasn't God.

God was in God by nature. But maybe he became partaker of the divine nature. Just like we can become partakers of the divine nature and under me. So it's it's like becoming God is entering into this realm of God.

God nests on what you want to say divinity, I guess.

And so we entered just like he did. But yeah I don't know there's there's a lot of questions that if you want interpreted certain ways it could. They could really cause problems on the one thing I was thinking to about in terms of being eternal in all like it. It's like they want to use their definition of eternal, and our definition of eternal because Jos will God's eternal he's always existed, but has always existed as God. But he's eternal in the sense that that's kind of like the God lives, but he didn't always live that way.

So it's like they want to try to employ both definitions of the word eternal so that they can say were biblical but we still agree with our Scriptures, but you can use both terms the word eternal and applied to God's healing to the exact same thing when I use the word perfect in the same conversation they will go between morally perfect and complete, and it's just really confusing and really hard to follow and this is really easy to kinda disengage and just not give up having that conversation because it's not consistent all the time yellowing on. We had our episode with Jordan that was one saying that we really focused on in her interview is that just making sure that you you put on the table.

What terms how are you defining things and then started go through the conversation so that you can say okay wait a minute. The beginning of this conversation, you define it this way now using in a totally different sense.

So it's back up what are you gonna try to redefine what Beardsley said or or is are using a different term. You know it, we gotta stick our terms because Fritz can keep equivocating going back and forth saying and flipping around.

We cannot have a conversation.

I mean imagine if the English language. If you could just decide at any given moment that a word could be define how are you want by communication just be absolutely impossible.

So that's why it's so important that we just nail things down. The beginning and that's what I call the 6 million gospel the Mormon Gospels and community gospel because not just the gospel changes but language changes everything changes. It's it's amorphous.

It's vague. It's it can be kind of whatever he wanted to be at any moment.

And that's what makes it so difficult for Christians to try to talk to Mormons because they could read book after book after book of LDS history LDS teachings and I talked to Latter Day Saints and they have no idea what's going on is like women. This is what I read. This is what I've experienced talking to these other Latter Day Saints. What are you talking about.

So it's very frustrating for the try to deal with that when you send messages send me but I think I'm convinced that Joseph Smith was a prophet because he was postmodern before postmodernism was cool okay the apostate all apostate are in Matthew you want to start reading the last section of your article. When I bring up this importance of obedience in the eldest gospel I am criticized. You never truly understood the gospel, that is what we believe then they present one of the married of explanations as I give above, of what they think the gospel really is. That is the kind of response I invariably receive in attempting to discourse with them. They can label me as an X Mormon and anti-Mormon and apostate, which is technically true as I did leave their faith in an attempt to disparage me, but this is merely an ad hominem attack to avoid the substance of my argumentation do not. The Latter Day Saints Scriptures and leaders themselves as accorded above show that it is obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel that prepares them for eternity.

Eternal life if this is the case, how do they explain the statements from our Scriptures, their leaders and the official LDS church's website when I attempt to address that what the eldest church officially teaches and I'm told I'm misrepresenting them and what they believe. I wonder why this is the case, why not just honestly describe what your church teaches does the LDS church not teach that you can become God's as described in doctrine and covenants section 132 verses 19 through 20. Does it not teaching that obedience to the law is how you achieve such a status does not also teach that God's grace alone cannot save you, but you must also do works and receive ordinances to make eternal life possible. Why try to make the focus all about grace. Although God's mercy, etc. and minimize the importance of your contribution and your obedience for your eternal life, but has been made so abundantly clear by your church's teaching, for example, if I point out that the LDS believe you need works to be saved, and it is dependent on what you do as I previously described.

They rebut that I never understood the eldest gospel and that the other. The gospel is more about being transformed by God's grace to become like him that obedience so that I show the gospel according to the Bible is indeed salvation by God's grace is a simile indicating but that it is not just by God's grace we are saved it is by God's grace alone through faith in Christ alone, for which we are saved and receive eternal life. They then immediately points James to to show you can't just be saved by faith alone gave good works to receive eternal life.

It feels like playing a perpetual game of whack a mole where one argument presents itself in so you attempt to address it before you can address it has disappeared and been replaced by another.

If I try to show them what on church teaches it is repudiated. But then when I show them what the Bible teaches and how it refutes what they just stated that they believe they claim that either out what I'm understanding the Bible is incorrect or try to cast a different light upon our churches gospel and attempt to make the Bible for what they believe instead of what I believe or they will assert albeit more rarely, rarely these days that the Bible is corrupted or missing the entirety of the restored gospel from it in their book of Mormon first Nephi chapter 13 it teaches that the Bible had many plain precious troops removed removed from it from by the great and abominable church which was historically understood by Latter Day Saints to be the Roman Catholic Church but in more recent years has been changed to be any church that fights against them. This is why I refer to the eldest gospel in these articles as the chameleon gospel isn't because the eldest gospel is all define. It certainly is well defined by the LDS church is leaders Scriptures and teaching manuals as a quotations from the eldest gospel topics manual above in the passages from the book of Mormon show, but the eldest gospel is presented as one of many different things in a variety of fashions by each individual Latter Day Saints and the way they present it might change depending on what the topic is and may even change within the course of the same discussion. This makes it incredibly difficult to do apologetics with Latter Day Saints because they each have their own version of what the LDS gospel really is.

If we attempt to identify what their church believes we are often accused of misrepresentation, lying, etc. so if you are a latter-day St. you're reading this, I plead with you read at least this paragraph, I love you. I try to discuss the Bible with you because I care about you and your eternal welfare. I truly believe that the Bible says and what Jesus says in the Bible is that if you don't have the correct belief of him in the gospel you will go to some lower glory or kingdom of heaven. You will burn in hell for your sins for all eternity. See John eight verse 24 Matthew 25, 31 to 46.

There are no second chances after we die. There is no gospel preached in the afterlife. This life this time. Now is the time to believe in the true Jesus Christ the Lord of the universe that created absolutely every created thing. Everything that exists other than God who is the only Creek uncreated being according to Colossians 1 verses 15 through 17 is he who is God from all eternity to all eternity and not a spirit child of Elohim and his wife, and definitely not the spirit brother Lucifer. It is through faith in him and his death on the cross alone that will make you righteous before God as it occurred with Abraham quote what then shall we say, was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh.

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

For what does Scripture say Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due and to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the blessings of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." That's Romans four verses one through eight.

I implore you, if you do not know the Christ of the Bible as your Savior turned to him with an open hand knowing you have nothing to offer God but only your dirty hands covered in the filth of your sins and turn to him as Savior to pull you from the wretched block that surrounds you trust in him and in him alone to save and keep you as your only hope reject your past works and accomplishments which are as filthy rags before God. See Isaiah 64 six they will do nothing but condemn you rely on the mercy of God alone to save you from them. The perfection which is required in Matthew 2548 can only both of be fulfilled by the one who did keep all the commandments Christ Jesus, and by receiving his spotless perfect righteousness credited to your account through faith alone. This is how all your past, present and future sins may be forgiven if you are in Christ. The punishment for all these sins is placed on the Lord's death on the cross on your behalf.

This is the biblical gospel. This is how I and all saved Christians keep the command to be perfect. This is how we have a right relationship with God.

This is how we are considered righteous. I'm not righteous by what I do because all my sinful deeds ever do is condemn me, even after being save you my best efforts are tainted by my sinfulness. But I'm saved because the Lord has died for my sins and I placed all my trust in what he has done to save me and God has made the promise for all those who do put their faith and trust in him quote and I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." And that's Philippians 146.

I pray that God will open your hearts to this message and that you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, as did the Philippian jailer.

See acts 16 verses 25 to 40 and countless others, including me, have done turn to Christ before it is too late for men thinking about the really love the way you close that out by pointing out that Christians actually do keep the commandment to be you therefore perfect, because that's that's often the question that follows right if we if we disagree with the way Latter Day Saints interpret that passage in light of third Nephi 1248 in the book of Mormon.

Then they will sell just how do you interpret it, and they asked the question whether their thinking in terms of moral perfection or bodily perfection right so glad that you cover the end. Philippians 16 is another of those passages that you know I know I read because I read the entire New Testament at the end of my mystic mission so I know I read that passage is a Mormon who did not ship me what that passage was saying until after I have left and when I when I saw that passage for what it is saying give me so much hope that you know yeah I'm still mired in sin as as a human being, but when I have faith in Christ. That's God beginning a good work in me, and he's going to bring that work to completion that that hope of the true gospel is just amazing. Do you have any comments on this last section of Matthew's article yet certain kind, the end with something that he said earlier on to.

He said faith needs an object, and I really like that and an analogy because my mind is you know if one of you guys ever strikes it rich and becomes a millionaire.

The union really strange look.

If I came and said where is that car you know, being only be totally different if you promised it to me and then I asked for you if that makes sense because is actually a promise on which I am basing a belief that I'm going to get something and for us. That is the promise of eternal life that God gives us and just kinda Latter Day Saints. You know the person of God. A lot of them believe it may be very slight, and open theism where he doesn't really know what were going to do if were going to fall yelling to stand or fall away and it seems very strange for him to give us a promise of eternal life. If there is no way for him to keep that promise because of what we may do work is so shortsighted that they can't see the future that that promise begins to really mean nothing and and I would just say that Danny Latter Day Saints was listening to the podcast that there there is a God out there who who makes a promise that is infallible to last that we can and we are staying through faith in his name.

There's nothing that can take that away from us and men goes back to her talk about how not every Christian biblical Christian believes in eternal life not Nitro live site in EE eternal preservation or you know that there's a possibility can lose your salvation, but I think this passage in Philippians 1 is so clear to me that what God started God will finish. I wanted to also read so mentioned John 10 earlier also just wanted to read some at some parts of it. So Jesus cc speaking to two.

It's at the feast of dedication. So Jesus speaking to several Jews and he says, so they asked him they say how will how long we keep us in suspense. If you're the Christ tells plainly starting in verse 24 and verse 25 John 10 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe the works that I do in my father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you're not among my sheep my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand IN the father are one. So Jesus is saying here is basically there there asking for sinus and just tells plainly. Who are you are you are you God. Are you the Messiah, just tell us, and he said essentially are my works good enough are the miracles of shown good enough is everything I've taught good enough.

Many says the real reason they don't believe is because are not as sheep and to his sheep. Jesus gives them eternal life, no question about it know if answer, but no conditionality.

No saying well is always a stay faithful as long as they do not do everything I tell them that there he just has no I give eternal life to my sheep the reason you don't believe is you're not part of my sheep. And for those who have eternal life. He says no one will snatch them out of my hand and my father who was given them to me, is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand. So Jesus is saying you can sentimental my hand Sentiment of the father's hand is not saying you know what's on teaching modal is impaired, Jesus is in saying that he is the father but he saying that they are so inseparable in terms of their divine will. Nothing can do anything to bring the believer out of God's hand in out like the promises are there, as is Michael and Polly were talking about those promises are there, and we can have faith in Christ because he is God because he has the authority he's been given all authority in heaven and on earth. As the man Christ Jesus to do all things according to his authority. We have that assurance in Christ, and we really can place trust in him and I don't. I struggle to understand how one can really have assurance if they believe that their works are part of the equation. You know I'm a math guy and also give an equation even if you have an equation with 55 terms on it their all fulfilled by God. If you have one term that is up to you and you miss that term. The left side is not equal the right side. If the right side is eternal life in the left side is all the conditions required if one is tantrums is missing is not equal to the right side and I can have eternal life. So I don't know I can really have assurance if it's even and it's the smallest Tiny bit the contribution of your work for your efforts or your continued faithfulness on a hike and really be assured that you will have eternal life in the passages quoted from from Matthew was a John Dunton John Tanya X is very emphatic right.

No one can snatch them out of my hand. No one can snatch them out of the father's hand. It's a promise and its emphatic and so if you going to stay in. No one or nothing can separate us from the love of God as Romans says if you say those things then is the kind of the response that I think it was Michael alluded to earlier, we sometimes these Latter Day Saints Hill or maybe you Matthew so I can remember, but I'm getting old Michael response, although nothing know nor does it ever say that you can jump out of the father's hand yourself right. The implication there if you'd use it. Okay, you could jump out of the father's hand.

Or you could jump out of Jesus's hand yourself. You are essentially saying that you are choosing stating over God. Right you choosing to follow a different a different leader right which if you're doing that then someone is snatching you out of the father's hand so my guess is that the passage in John that this is very emphatic and identical.

I don't how you get around that because you can't say that you could potentially be fallen prey to the to the temptations of of the wicked one. In such a way that you will lose your salvation or you Say that you would be handed over to the buffeting's of stating those as latter-day St. teachers teaching say in and still hold to this idea that no one or nothing can snatch you out of the father or Jesus's hat on to add that Paul not that there's much to an extended out perfectly, but part of the reason that Jesus gives the line.

No one can snatch anyone from the father's hand is because he's the greatest of all, and that means that if you can snatch yourself out of his hand. You are staying in some stance that you are greater then God because you are able to break free and it's kind of like, you know, if I'm carrying my kid into the house and he struggling and he's able to break free will. That tells you that my grasp wasn't very tight that I was overpowered in some stance and and I just don't think that's true about God at all. I don't think that is grass can be overpowering that we can squirm out of it, but I did want to do a quick mailbag got a couple of really good message on her Facebook page for the arthritis podcast that I like to read through and then we got a question from a listener as well. So go to Facebook page message. First, this person wants to remain anonymous because they are not ready to go public but they say they say it quote I consider myself a firefly. I love that analogy. I've been drawn to the biblical gospel. I was raised LDS and I would love to leave my family situation makes it hard husband wants to say we have four kids. Both of our families are all in this tough, as you know I read Mormon church history, and it's clear to me Joseph Smith line I've been attending a nondenominational church in my home ward.

I'm ready to leave, but it's so tough.

Thank you for your podcasts really help me.

I told a friend today that anything I read about non-Mormon Jesus really warms my heart thought I was a beautiful message recently received from a listener, and for that lesson are just like to let them know that we will be praying for them for their transition and for Grace and peace to be given to their family trip. That's great. Amen.

Praise God I'm not. I feel like when you're reading a message. That's the kind of person that I think we make all these episodes for for someone who is struggling who maybe feels trapped. Not sure what to what to do a ready go may be no there there unsure about what the future is a nullity. We each have different experiences leaving the church so hopefully our experiences can be a blessing to them and be an encouragement to them. Wherever it is they go to just rely on Christ and have faith in God's goodness is going to lead them wherever you know wherever they need to go if they just trust in him, so I yeah thank you for the message yet.

I was telling Paul before start recording today to that. I wish when I've been going through everything in my my transition out of Mormonism that I had a contest like this to to listen to just to hear some people who've gone through one going through and made it to the other side because when you're when you're having those feelings and and yet it is so tough going. You got you got family issues and you can't can't break away is just not an easy thing for any latter-day St. that you feel totally isolated and you wonder if you're going to come out of it and ever be okay again, and so, the it is. It is important to see that there are other people who come out of it and that they are okay and that's one thing that not say to you anonymous listener is that the things to get better and there is definitely no there is only a dark tunnel to go through but there is light on the other side and then and we Jesus and that's all we need. That is such a huge comfort. You know all the loss that we can go through just cannot even compare to the to the glory of having that relationship with him so you know this.

There's deftly something to look forward to and to Christianity and it's an adventure and there's a lot of things that come from as we were planning for and discussing this podcast and its launch and trying to determine what space we wanted to be in as as a podcast.

There's been a lot of lot of room to make podcasts and then talk about topics and we determined that we wanted to be in the space to reach people exactly like anonymous and I think were doing that we have a pretty loyal listenership of about hundred 220 people and were grateful for all of you and we said before, my state again were not here just to gain an audience reserve to reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And so if if you as a listener, appreciate what were doing if it's meaningful to you, please, please do share it because we do want to reach more people, but not just for the goal of reaching a bunch of people and meant so we also got a question from one of our listeners and I think on it will be good to discover quickly discussing the question is about the Holy Spirit and the listeners asks do evangelicals believe that the Holy Spirit communicates/guides them, and if so how, how is it different or the same as the LDS view. What are your thoughts the desk say that I was absolutely had it happen to me while writing articles even numberless running article about the caller are anti-Mormons are anti-anti-Mormons Christian in response to an article called, are anti-Mormons Christian and in the original draft.

I started to kind go after some some LDS apologists written several articles about me and as I got to the end of the article, I felt the strong impression to race all all the things I've said because it was just it was just petty and and there is really no need to do that and a lot of different experiences like that.

I think as far as you know which church I decided ultimately was right for me to go to.

I think that the spirit led me to the right place to go on but I would say that when it comes to the doctrine that I'm going to believe in the Bible is my final authority. So if I feel like the spirit is telling me that that God is three separate beings. But the Bible is saying something different than I am having a false spirit are misinterpreting. But the Bible is but I'm going to go with. In an instance like that. Hypothetically I agree I agree theories and are we so as Christians we don't believe that sort were not in the same role as prophets and apostles were in the old and new Testaments. Where were costly receiving new revelation and new Reno new information. I mean there are smokers in the disagreed that but have strongest agreements with deposition also but so we believe primarily that a lot of the same things actually delighted sensitively of the Holy Ghost in terms of what he does. He teaches you brings you into all truth allowed. There's a lot of promises of Christ to the apostles. I think it's in John 14 through 16.

Subject that this does three chapters. I think he talks a lot about the promises of the spirit he would be a comforter, a guide helper. There is a counselor. He promised that his disciples that he would guide them into all truth, and some people debate as to whether that's just talking specifically of the apostles or of all believers. I thing extends to all believers to where he witnesses to us when we recognize truth he helps us to understand and believe truth so when we read Scripture were reading God's word to us reading God's literal words on the page. And so the spirit will help us to understand those things. So all times with the prophets and apostles when they would write or speak under the gift of prophecy. It was as if God was speaking through them so we don't believe that the gift of prophecy really operates in that same way today, but the spirit does help us to preach the gospel for those who have the gift faithfully help us to understand the Scripture and to what God is teaching so I like to make the comparison and and and it's the reformed view is that rather than being revelation today were God is revealing new things. The spirit gives us illumination so I like to think of it as a room so if you think of room is like all truth revelation is like putting new furniture into the room. You know, so God is revealing new truths about a student and about himself, about the universe that existence and the revelation that we have.

There's two sources of revelation just creation all around us. God reveals truths about himself and about the world through creation and special revelation which is Scriptures, so that's revelation.

So today the spirit isn't really revealing new things. It's just that it's making things Ardean that already have been revealed, known to us. So go Mets in the room analogy revelation is kind of putting new furniture in the room and illumination is when you walk into a room. It's pitch dark you can't see any of the furniture, but illumination is turning on the light switch so that you can see all the pieces of furniture in the room so it helps us to understand what God has already revealed through his prophets and apostles the ethics guesthouse can jump in my thoughts as well. Listener asks how is it different than were the same as latter-day Saints saw Kenneth my thoughts there latter-day Saints because of certain passages within their Scriptures tend to think of the role of letter of the Holy Spirit to primarily be one of revealing truth is not the kind of touched on and and and also like confirming truth to latter-day St. in the they think of it in terms of feelings. A lot of times, and in this conversation can get quite heated at times between Latter Day Saints and and evangelical Christians who attempts to witness to latter-day Saints because Latter Day Saints plays a very high emphasis on these feelings that they believe have have communicated to them where truth exists, and so what this is either like burning in the bosom or sometimes I've heard Latter Day Saints describe it as the tingling up their spine and into the into the back of their neck. You can sometimes feel so these these types of feelings are our interpreted by Latter Day Saints to be the Holy Spirit speaking to you and one of the things I noticed as I took my detour but I talked about quite often through Sunstone and dialogue Mormonism the more liberal version of Mormonism is that people who go that route.

There, moving from a place where the focus on knowing truth was on these feelings to a place where knowing truth comes to evidence through historical documentation and so they they will often downplay. Of course those feelings as well and it's it's an interesting transition that you make ready to do your readers learn truth through feelings are learning truth through through evidence and so how does the Holy Spirit work in the life of the believer Google believer is not through feelings. I don't rely on feelings to to know where truth is that doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not guiding me in my studies in the things that I learned a knot in my understanding and being having illumination given to my mind as I read Scripture is not talked about today. Philippians 16 how that passage should be different way reading it as a post latter-day St. Bennett did when I read it as a latter-day St. That's the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

That's the understanding that comes to to your mind so there are significant differences in terms of how Latter Day Saints interpret the the work of the Holy Spirit in one's life and and I referenced you know kind about liberal version of Mormonism.

One of the ways that they a lot of people who come out of the Latter Day Saints faith kind of recognize the danger of relying on feelings to represent truth is that many of them have an experience where they will go to a rock concert. For example, and they will feel that tingling up their spine and into their neck and really that's just a feeling that's common to humanity right you experiencing something that excites you and then neurologically you have this shiver right is not the Holy Spirit that's that's nerves and so they experience that in a setting that is not the latter-day St. faith and in a setting that surprises them because maybe no rock concert is considered to be maybe something that that that the devil would be more involved and then then the Holy Spirit, and so they experience. This is in a setting that is different work or maybe maybe some of the religious setting by the experiences there and so surprises them and they realize that those feelings are not giving them a barometer of truth. So yeah that's that's how I would talk about the differences, glad you brought that up that the spirit isn't primarily focusing on feelings but is also damage interior quake that a lot of you know one the 19 kind of pushback that will give commodity senses will say well if you truly have the spirit and it helps you to understand Scripture why do you stop so many different interpretations of Scripture, can we blame the Holy Spirit for that quiescent know you are on leave Michael for all of us is saying mean yeah this is different interpretations as far as interpretations of things are essential doctrine. There are different interpretations of that in Christianity so yeah I'm in the spirit allow we got guns allowed us to have different interpretations of things that don't ultimately affect our our salvation or raising like that so I don't think that there's really as big of an argument. This is a latter-day St. may think that there is with that point generally point to Ephesians chapter 4 right God's given some apostles nonprofits spent the past is the Latter Day Saints use quite often what was was kind of ending part of that passage until we all come to unity of the faith life it and so it's kind of presupposed that there will not be unity and everything, but that God has given the means to bring us to that and so the fact that there are differences in tracking interpretation does not belie the fact that there's a problem with the work of God. God is working in believers bringing us to the truth. Over time, right there may be some different interpretations. But God is working through that to bring us all to unity of the faith that's that's biblical. It's right there and I don't think that it works 2.2 that passage and suggest OC of a lack of lack of unity on every particular means that the there's been this great apostasy, and therefore the Latter Day Saints restoration is necessary as something that works biblically and the only thing is it's a double-edged sword for latter-day St. to say that because like we talked about this entire episode, there's a lot of different stances that Latter Day Saints taken so United States, kamikaze tactic to say that because the same issue happens with fan sites even on a much larger scale because even with the gospel itself. There are so many different interpretations, but with vast numbers of things that really drew me was appealing to Christianity to me was I would ask Christians you know.

How are you staying tonight's it's always the same clear-cut answer.

I didn't have 100 different Christians telling me 100 different things. It was very simple and I liked that a lot about the dilemmas. Second Peter three quickly read parts of it. It's kind like his final words of this epistle. He says therefore, beloved, since your waiting for these. Be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace and count the patients of our Lord is salvation just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you, according to the wisdom given him as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction as they do the other Scriptures. I love that passage because two major things there. I mean, some people say while the apostles didn't know what their writing was Scripture. Peter says that the words of Paul or Scripture is recognizing that his fellow apostle and the Lord what he's writing is inspired. And second of all, he saying he's admitting's yes some things that he writes are not easy to understand, so I gives me a lot of comfort to know that like you know not everything is going to be absolutely plain.

Some people like some some traditions like to claim that theirs is the one true tradition is continued on, you know, since Christ and like you know everything that they taught is what the apostles taught on something that's really the case. And I think they were still church history shows they were still try to figure things out. They had this dog breed Scripture. And it's kind like okay well figured out, think you know it's gonna take time and through others over the centuries, we have the benefit of their a lot of theological issues that came up, and so they had to sail.

Tales go back to Scripture and see what it says on this particular topic. Let's be more clear. Let's be more precise in our language in all tended to counter this particular heresy or this particular teaching in the beginning is very simple faith. You know, like when you read the apostles Creed is a very simple creed that you allow a lot of Latter Day Saints to probably say amen to that over time that say okay well were not on the same page, so you really gotta be clear.

Anyways that's got another topic though, but I sites read like a passage in Peter stood Michael final before I close cell no. I think I covered anything really well. So really appreciate you guys about about this matter really like that article titles does really well done by someone one final thought on the question about the Holy Spirit to close out we quoted today from Philippians 16 that God was young, but Paul trusts that God was becoming to work in you will bring it through to completion. My trust in the in the feeling of some of them looking for the feeling of trust and reliance that factors me upon God and and understanding that God is working in me is the same type of reliance and trust that I have with regards to the Holy Spirit as a believer I don't need to feel things to trust that God is working but I think that's really important to understand Inman. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast.

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