Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick live. And I think today what I might do is tell what I do here on the show because sometimes we get new callers, new listeners, people calling in.

We have newbies all the time, people just tuning in. Well, what's the show about? And I'll get to that in a sec.

Today's date is the 5th of February 2025. If you want, you give me a call. As usual, it is easy to do. Just dial 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call.

It's easy. You can also send me an email at info at karm.org, info at c-a-r-m dot o-r-g. And put the subject line radio comments, radio question. We can get to them. Let me look and see if we've got anything in there right now.

Any new stuff. We only have 64 emails in our inbox. That's it. That has not been addressed. And boy, we've got a lot of stuff in there. That's nothing.

64? That's nothing. Let me check this out. I have matt at karm.org. Ooh, there's 2006. And Matt's looking at Gmail. There's 1441.

And then my private, which I'm not going to tell you what the address is, my private has 334. Oh, man. I'm going to have to put caution tape around the office here and just do emails for like a week. Good thing I have one of those speech recognition programs.

I have one of those and I can say paste whatever, like an opening or closing or this or that, and it'll just put it right into the text of an email and then I can just move the cursor and then start voice typing a bunch of stuff in for an answer. I can do that. So that's good. All right. All right. All right.

If you're tuning in now, so my name is Matt slick is my real name and that's why we call it Matt slick live and I'm a Christian apologist, which means I defend the Christian faith and debate and teach. In fact, I was just doing that for about an hour and a half today. I had to go someplace.

When I get bored, I turn on my phone, I go into a chat room, a chat place and go in and start talking. And man, I'll tell you, man, people don't like being cornered. They do not like it. And I cornered this one guy, two guys actually, man, they just come swinging, but they don't like it. So that does happen and I'm able to tell you about that, but also, okay, now finally, um, I got something to tell you, uh, that, uh, we're going in November, we're going to, uh, a bunch of us are going to go to, um, Jordan, uh, for a Bible lands tour. And so, uh, let's see, I'll make sure I get everything right.

So, yeah. Okay, good. So I was supposed to put a newsletter out and our newsletter system has been down and I haven't been able to do that for a while. And I talked to a specialist and he said, it's ready to go today.

I haven't even checked. I've been so busy. So I'm going to do is write an email tonight and send it out to everybody and let people know that, uh, we're going to have a final offer over on Friday. This Friday is in two days from now that on the seventh, wait, today's Wednesday, right?

Today's Wednesday? Yeah, it is. So that if anybody wants to still go on the Jordan tour, I'll be going, uh, Lord willing, unless something comes up, but I'll be going along with some other people on the bus. Uh, we're going flying into Jordan. The guy we're doing this with has been there, uh, multiple times. It's safe. It's not a problem. He said, just like going to Turkey and I feel perfectly safe in Turkey. You've been there twice. Uh, no big deal. People treat you fine.

They're just normal people. And so we're going to go there to Petra and also Sodom and Gomorrah and a bunch of other places. In fact, I'm looking at the website, uh, 2025jordan.com, 2025jordan.com.

It'll forward, um, uh, to this website. And there's this little special something about this, this, uh, trip. There's a guy named Joel Kramer. Joel Kramer is a biblical archeologist and he's got like 700,000 followers on YouTube. The guy is incredible. And that's no understatement because I've been on tours with him before and where he's taught. And I'm telling you, he, he brings out stuff no tour guide's going to bring out.

It really is good. We were at, uh, for example, Jericho and, uh, there's a, uh, you know, a cordoned off area. Don't go beyond this area. And so he, he waits and it's, et cetera. He goes, come on, let's go. And then we go over the cordon to the back area. And he said, now look at this, look at that.

They don't show you this, but look at it. And we get this, these private tours and it was through him. We got to go into the Qumran cave area also.

So he has these abilities of this insight and he's going to be on this tour. Now after this week, Friday, if nobody signs up, cause we've got one spot left under me. So one more spot that if you sign up under me, you could, you go to 2025jordan.com and then use, you know, use my name, Matt Slick.

It's under me. Uh, then great. If not, if nobody does that, I'm gonna put the newsletter again for this tonight. But, uh, uh, if nobody does that, it's going to go over to Joel Kramer and it's going to sell out in two minutes, three minutes, five minutes. That kind of a thing.

It'll be just, that's the way it is. So, uh, but this, this trips can be great. Um, we're going to be going, let's see. We're going to go to Amman Jordan, then Tilraba, Philadelphia Museum, Amorite Tower, then Mount Nebo, Madaba Map, Heshbon, Beth Peor.

Uh, let's see what else? The Bethany by the Jordan where Jesus was crucified, was baptized actually. Salah, Borzah, Petra.

Oh man, Petra. But you can't be, this is another thing with a trip is you've got to be in shape to walk. So you have to prep walking. What I did for my last trip, I was walking up to five miles a day and that was fine. Uh, I just put my headset on and listen to Bible stuff and do some talking and, you know, and went to Petra. And I think the Petra day we walked 12 miles, like six miles out and it's a bit of a walk, just letting you know.

But, you know, it's not like 80 miles an hour and you can do it. We've, we've, uh, I think we walked, uh, five to 10 miles a day overall, uh, between, uh, you know, stops and stuff like that. Each time we're doing these tours and it works out fine. We're also going to be going to, uh, Sodom and Gomorrah and, uh, Pella, Jarash, and then we fly home.

Anyway, 12 day trip if you're interested 2025 Jordan, excuse me, 2025jordan.com and Joel Kramer's website is expeditionbible.com. How about that? That's really good. Okay.

We've got no callers waiting. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. And like I said, you can email me as well.

And, uh, just an email to info at karm.org. All right. So, um, I've been learning a lot of theology. I'm always studying and I'm 68, but studying since 1980 and, uh, reading the Bible and studying and seminary college, uh, debates, teaching, writing articles, et cetera. And I have a lot more to learn.

I really do. I don't say I have all the answers, but I'll tell you one thing. I know my reform theology really well. And I was, uh, driving someplace to have lunch with some people. And I decided to get online and just listen on the phone. I just go to listen, listen to what they're talking.

Sometimes there's some good conversations in chat rooms. And so I did that on the way up. And then on the way back, um, uh, let's just say some heresy was being taught in a room.

Let's see if I can jump in and kind of help out a little bit. So I did. And next thing you know, in an hour discussion and I get home and I switched to my computer and we're having discussions and the prevenient grace got brought up. And I love the idea of prevenient grace and I'll tell you why it came up because we're discussing of all things, um, original sin and Romans 5 19. And it was great because, man, so I go to Romans 5 19, right? Talking about original sin. This is what this verse says. Okay. For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one that many will be made righteous.

All right. Before I get into this, I want to introduce a concept called Pelagianism. Pelagianism is a heresy. It's a false teaching that states that the, uh, an infant, uh, a newborn has no sin nature is not fallen.

There's no guilt to the baby account. There's nothing there. That's Pelagianism. Okay. That's the basics of what it is.

There's more to it, but that's the basics. So I say, well, that's wrong. And Pelagianism has been condemned by basically every council throughout history, Reformed councils, even Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. They condemn it.

Okay. Because of various verses that says, for example, like Romans 5 19 for as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous. Now, folks, let me tell you, there's a lot here. A lot.

I could teach on this a lot. These two verses, Romans 5 18 and 5 19 because they're related. But this is the sub point of verse 19. I said through one man's disobedience, that's Adam sin.

The many were made sinners were made sinners. Now in Greek, that's the aorist passive indicative. And what does that mean?

This is what it means. Aorist is past tense, past tense and active, actually passive deals with what's called voice. There's active voice, middle voice and passive voice in Greek.

We have it in English too. People just don't talk like this. What's your, you know, the active voice of the structure of this predicate nominative, you know, indirect object. And so what we do when you study Greek, you learn those kinds of things because that's how you discuss what these things are in Greek. So you understand, you know, if I were to say, what's the present active indicative first person singular of the verb to walk? They would give me that exact form. I know exactly what it is.

So stuff like that. Now, this becomes important for the average person when we understand that when it says the many were made sinners were made. That's in English is the passive voice. Let me explain what active passive and middle voice are. Active voice, I hit the ball. Passive voice, I'm hit by the ball.

Middle voice, I hit myself with the ball. In active voice, I perform the action. In passive voice, I receive the action.

I'm not doing it. It's happening to me. In middle voice, I'm performing the action on myself.

So this is important. So the passive voice means I receive the action. There's somebody else doing something or some other event is occurring and then it affects me. It comes upon me. So I walked out into the storm and I was made wet by the rain. The rain came down. It made me wet. It drenched me. I was made wet by the rain.

That's a good example. Was made wet. That's the passive voice. I didn't make myself wet. I didn't take water and pour it on my head.

And that's a middle voice. No, I was out there and it happened. It's like you could be in a room and a water pipe breaks and it gets you wet.

If you're passive in it, it's doing something and you're receiving the action of becoming wet. OK, this is critical. Through the one man's disobedience, that's Adam's sin. The many were made sinners.

They received the action. They were made sinners by Adam's action. That's what the Bible says. So I'm talking to this guy and I said this to him. And he says, well, when you give a hyper literal translation and he tried to dismiss what it meant by saying it's a hyper literal translation. And I said, but but that's what it says in the Greek and it's important. And then, you know, they say, you do the Greek thing. Try to impress me. No, no, no. I'm just telling you what it is. And in the English, it's even were made sinners, which in the English is a passive voice.

In English, we have passive, active and middle voice in English. So I said, that's what happened to us. Oh, they didn't like that.

They didn't like that at all. And the conversation continued. I'll tell you what else we got into, which is really interesting. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back, everybody, to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number 877-207-2276. All right. So since nobody's calling, a lot of people don't when I start teaching like this, because they just listen. And that's okay if you want to call me. Oh, there's someone coming in.

But let me get through some of the stuff that I was saying. Now, I asked one of the gentlemen. Now, this is an important question.

It says, through the transgression of the one, through the disobedience of the one, the many were made sinners. And I asked, does the many include infants? That was the killer question. And this guy could not answer the question. He said, other people this when they sin? I didn't ask that.

I said, does it include infants? I notice a lot of times people don't answer my questions. They answer something they think they want to answer instead. And they say that's the answer.

It's not the answer. And so what happened was, interestingly, afterward, we got into the issue of prevenient grace. And I'll get over this really quickly. Prevenient grace. Prevenient grace is the grace that comes before that enables a person to freely choose Jesus. And another person got in and started defending prevenient grace. And I even talked about this issue of, there's another issue I want to get into, probably after, we'll see, the caller, which I think is a Catholic guy will be interested, where God is the standard.

And we'll get into that maybe a little bit. This is a really important theological point that a lot of people don't make, don't understand. But prevenient grace, nevertheless, get back to that, is the grace that comes before. And I said to them, I said, so it makes someone basically neutral where they can just freely choose or not choose, right? They said, yeah. Okay. So then why is it Jesus says that you can't come to him unless it's granted to you from the Father?

And if that's the case, up to you to choose. And why does it say that it's granted that you believe by Jesus, by God? Now, they can't answer these kind of questions. They can't, let me put it this way, they will say they can answer them. But I'm going to say they don't answer the question. They answer something related to the question and they think that's the answer. They don't really focus on the specifics of what I'm exactly asking. That's often the case. And it really is. And it was with them.

And they went off to some other answer. But I said, look, if God just makes us neutral, why is it that we have to be granted to believe by God? It's granted to us.

Heir's passive indicative again happens to be the same form there. We receive the action of believing. It happens to us. Why is it that's the case if it's just up to us to make a decision?

That's the question they can't answer from their perspective. So much theology, so little time. Let's go to Bob from Nebraska. Bob, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, thanks, Matt.

It's good to be speaking with you again. The other day when we talked, we never even got to the topic of the rosary. Chuck from North Carolina had called and was talking to you a little bit about the rosary.

But it didn't sound like maybe either one of you knew too much about it. So I'm just kind of curious what your knowledge of the rosary is. It's a set of beads that are prayed, and there's certain stations.

I don't know if a station is the right word or segments. And you do things in order, and the purpose is to help you remember what to do and how to do them in the proper way. And you pray some are our father's prayers and some are to marry. More to marry than a father.

Okay. Yeah, and so when you pray the rosary, it's a very scriptural and a traditional prayer. It's been around since the earliest days of the church in different forms. But yeah, so it's five decats, and a decat refers to ten Hail Marys for each of the five decats. And you pray and you meditate on mysteries for each decat.

And the mysteries are basically parts of the gospel, so parts of the life of Christ. All originates from the earliest days of Christianity when monks would pray the 150 psalms each day. And that's where the physical object kind of came about because in order to remember which psalm they were on, they would use a knotted rope or stones or something like that. So that's the tradition of using that object.

Keep track of where you're at on the prayer because it takes about 20 to 25 minutes to pray it when you pray it. So I didn't know if you'd ever heard of any of that stuff before. Yeah, I have.

I've heard all of this. I haven't put it down in a specific order. I have my notes on Catholicism, let's see, right there. And the notes are 240 pages. Some of it is just recitations or just copying what the CCC says. So I have references in that to the notes.

Like probably 20 pages. Catechism is a great resource. Any question you have about the church is pretty much at least referred to and sometimes pretty fully explained in that catechism.

Oh, well then I could ask some difficult questions out of the catechism for you then. Well, so what else do you, I mean, do you know what the different meditations are in the rosary and the fact that the Hail Mary that you pray is actually a very scriptural prayer like the Our Father is? It's not a prayer to Mary that's not scriptural because you're praying to Mary that's not found in scripture. Yeah, so in Luke 1.28 you have the angelic salutation or exhortation. And then in Luke 1, 42 through 43 you have St. Elizabeth and that's called the evangelical exhortation. So that's where you get basically the first half of the Hail Mary is just repetition of verses from scripture which is a very Christian thing to do, you know. So those are, that's why the Hail Mary is a very scriptural prayer. No it's not because when it says Luke 1.28 when it said, you know, your highly favored one, was the person praying to Mary at that point? The person was recognizing that that was just an address to Mary so Hail Mary is Hail Mary, Hello Mary and that's what the angel was saying so that, you know, the Ave, that's basically the rule. Was Gabriel praying to Mary?

No, he was addressing Mary and so when I do the, well it actually is. Well, you know, when we call out to somebody, you know, in a sense it is, you know, praying for their attention, you know. You say, hey pray tell me, you know, there's different ways to say that.

But the Ave Maria is simply the Latin form of that verse. So when we're talking to each other on the radio here, is that praying to each other? No, but we can pray with each other so I could say, Matt, do you want to say a prayer with me?

And we could pray. So we're not praying to each other when we're talking to each other and Gabriel was talking to Mary. That was not a prayer and yet you guys take it and make it a prayer but it wasn't intended to be a prayer. Well, can't you use scripture in your prayers? So even if a verse of scripture isn't, you know, the words of a prayer in and of itself, you can use that scriptural verse to aid you in prayer. And that's really what the Hail Mary does.

It's just a recollection of the angels addressed to Mary and the annunciation, which is a very, very pivotal place in all of human history. So it's a great thing to remember in prayer. Except that it's not a prayer. And if I am praying and I use scripture, I'm praying to God. So I don't pray to Mary.

She's a functioning goddess in that point. Well, a prayer, you know, the Hail Mary is actually asking you for Mary's intercession to pray with you, to intercede for you, just like I might ask you to pray for me and my family. I'd say, Matt, you know, we're having some health issues or whatever. Can you keep us in your prayers?

And you'd say, sure, Bob, I'd be happy to do that. So we call on, but we've got a break. We've got a break.

Hold on. We'll be right back, okay? Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages.

We've got a break. And hopefully the conversation will continue. So please stay tuned. Welcome back to the show. Let's see if Bob is still there. Bob, are you still there? I am, Matt.

I am, yeah. So we're talking, I guess, now about kind of the saints' ability to intercede for us or why people might include prayers with the saints in their prayers, right? Yeah, is there anything in the New Testament about praying to saints or praying to Mary?

Oh, I don't know. I suppose that Romans 8, 35 through 39 talks about death can't separate Christians from Christ. And so if people have gone before us and they've led an exemplary life, you know, a virtue, then they're probably, well, actually we believe they're closer to Christ than we are here on earth. So, you know, for instance, St. Thomas, the apostle, you know, he's the patron saint of doubters and stuff.

So if I pray for you tonight, then I would ask St. Thomas to intercede on your behalf and help you open your heart to the full truth of the Gospel. Okay, so Thomas, can Thomas hear millions of prayers spoken from people in different languages, thought and spoken all over the world simultaneously? Well, I mean, we think that when we get to heaven, things are going to be much different than the physical experiences we have on earth. For instance, you agree that in heaven, space and time are not like the space and time that we understand as human beings, right? I don't know if that's the case or not.

I've not been there, so I can't tell. Neither should you. And since you haven't, you don't know, you should make it a case and build a document. But it isn't a pretty basic Christian, you know, Christian understanding that God is outside of space and time. No, I always tell people, don't say he's outside of space and time. We don't know what that means.

Yeah, so the rules, the physical rules that we are governed by just by the laws of nature on earth, we don't believe necessarily apply in heaven. Isn't that a fair statement? Okay, have you ever been to Turkey, for example, the country Turkey? I have, yeah. Oh, okay.

Well, good. Well, then, you know, my analogy wouldn't work. I'd say if you've not been there, how would you know what it's like? You don't know. It's like saying, have you ever been to heaven? You don't know.

How does time work there? You don't know. Well, then don't make a doctrine based on something you don't know. But you've read the book of Revelation, right? Yeah, and so the book of Revelation is highly symbolic. So when people tell me, I don't care who it is, God's outside of time, what does that mean?

They don't even know what it means. Well, then how do you say that's what God is? If you don't even know what something is, don't attribute it to God. That's what I'm saying. Well, for instance, for instance, yeah. Can Thomas hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought in different languages all over the world?

I believe he can, and I believe there's scripture that points out that Mary can do this right in scripture. But you yourself have said that. Where's that scripture? Yeah. I'll give it to you in a second, but yeah, I'll give it to you in a second. So you yourself, I think in our last conversation we were talking about John 20, 21 through 23, and you explained Christ's moment on the cross where he paid for all the sins of the believers on the cross. And I'd like to talk about that a little bit more today because you said something that was pretty interesting. But you say the now and the not yet. So you explained that Christ's forgiveness on the cross has relation to this now and not yet because time does not apply necessarily to Christ in his glorified state. I didn't say that. And so we would say other people that are in him.

No, no, no. That's not my position. That's not what I said either.

Well, how would you explain your now and not yet then? Because you're saying the sins that we commit today were forgiven by Christ 2,000 years ago on the cross. I didn't say that either.

I paid for them. Yeah, whatever your take on that is. But you basically say 2,000 years ago Christ works on the cross, and now today we can, as soon as we believe our sins are forgiven because of the work he did, and that's the now and not yet aspect of your position. No, I didn't say they're forgiven. I said, Colossians 2.14 says Jesus canceled the certificate of debt having nailed the cross. So what I say is the certificate of debt was canceled at the cross.

That's what I say. It's not canceled when you believe because it's canceled when Jesus did what he did 2,000 years ago. That's what the Bible says. And then you say you're forgiven once you believe, right?

That's when you're justified. Yes, because forgiveness is something we experience as is justification. But I'm born, for example, 2,000 years after Jesus was on the cross. So exactly 2,000, but you know, 2,000 years later.

So he bore my sin in his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2.24. That's an example of the now and the not yet. And the only way I'm aware of to explain this is with election predestination and federal headship.

It's the only way I'm aware of. Maybe somebody else has got another theory from scripture, but I can back up this idea that we're elected in Christ, predestined, and that Christ represented us, federal headship. And that when we were on the cross, since God knows all things eternally, et cetera, he imputed to Christ the sins of the elect, the chosen ones. And Christ, because he says in John 10.11, he lays his light down for the sheep. In John 10.26, he says, you're not my sheep. So he says who does it for? The sheep, not the goats. That's what Jesus says.

And I get some other stuff. So that's not my position. That's my position. So the now, the not yet is Jesus now was our not yet. That he was 2,000 years ago on the cross as a man, just like I am, just like you are in real time, real space. But somehow, some way, all the sins of mankind, past, present, future, I believe just of the elect, though, were imputed to Christ on that cross at that moment, or that moment within that hour, whatever you want to call it, right there on that cross.

That's what I believe. And that's where he canceled the sin debt. Not when you believe, not when you get baptized. Because the Bible says it's on the cross, not when you believe, doesn't say when it gets canceled, when you get baptized.

Yeah. Well, you know, I think that if you're going to say you're unclear whether God operates in the same space and time that we do, I think you're departing from, you know, Orthodox Christianity. And I think the majority of Orthodox Christianity over the centuries has understood God to, you know, operate in God's place and time. And that's without the restraints that we have. For instance, you know, when Christ was on the Sea of Galilee, and he told the apostles to, he was over by Capernaum, and he told the apostles to go across, and then the storm happened, and Christ appeared on the water. You know, he steps, actually Peter steps out of the boat for a few seconds and walks and then sinks, and then all of a sudden, you know, after Christ saves him, they appear on shore. So that would be an instance in Scripture where maybe the confines of space and time, the matter don't have an impact on Christ.

He's able to surpass that. Or maybe he just has access to other physical laws we're not aware of and just act accordingly. Yeah, and that would be what I'm saying about space and time. What I'm saying is if you don't know what it is, don't say that's what it is. That's all I'm saying.

I say that God relates to time and space differently than we do. That's as far as I go. I don't know to what extent. Yeah.

It's just different. So we think that anybody that's glorified in heaven has that capability, as much as God allows for it. Well, yeah, I'm just saying. Just tell me your belief. Except that the Bible says don't go beyond what's written, 1 Corinthians 4.6. So then what you're doing at this point is going beyond what's written in the Word of God. The Bible never says. Under Martin Luther didn't agree with that.

Who cares about Martin Luther? We're talking about Scripture, what God says right now. And so the issue here is they're not to exceed what's written in the Word of God. Nothing in the Word of God says that Mary, for example, can hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken in thought in different languages, and she can comprehend them as well as know the intentions of their hearts so she can answer them.

That's a goddess. Well, actually, in Mass on Sunday we celebrated the presentation in the temple, which I'm sure you're familiar with, where Simeon is addressing Mary, right? And among what he says, he says also that I think it's in verse 35. So look at Luke 1, 35.

Two, I think it is. And he says that a sword will pierce your heart also so that the thoughts of many will be revealed. Okay, you're not answering the question, though. It just happens a lot. I ask a question and make a statement. People don't respond to it.

They respond to something else. But you said is there a verse in Scripture that would indicate that Mary is capable of hearing the prayers of multiple people at one moment. Yeah.

Where's that? That's just something that... That's Luke 2, 35? A sword will pierce even your own soul till the end of the thoughts from many hearts may be revealed? That means Mary can hear millions of prayers? Well, if you're reading that Scripture version and saying the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed, Matt, as a man sitting in Idaho today, I think that's where you're at, can you have the thoughts of many hearts revealed to you?

No, I'm not a goddess or a god. Hold on, we've got a break. Okay, folks, we'll be right back after these messages and hopefully I'm going to ask him some questions. We'll see how that goes.

Some good questions. We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody, welcome back to the last segment of The Hour. Bob, are you still there? I am, Matt. I am.

Okay. So basically, you know, I look at 235 and I see a very interesting verse, and to be honest with you, it just came to me at Sunday Mass when we were reading this part of the Gospel and I thought, this is really interesting because this might be an indication that Mary has the ability to, you know, reveal the hearts and the thoughts of many, which would be prayers like the angel in Zechariah 1 verses 12 through 16 that could hear the prayers of the people of Israel and took those prayers to God who then, you know, had mercy on Jerusalem in that passage. So there would be a correlation between verses like that. Yeah, I think you're implying something that's not there.

So let me get this straight. So you're affirming that Mary can hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought in different languages all over the world and know the intentions of each individual praying, all simultaneously comprehending them, right? Yeah, that's what I believe. I think that's what many Christians, including all Catholics, believe. Then how is she not a functioning goddess?

She's not. I mean, she's limited to the role that God gave her, which was a human being. You know, when we die, we don't become angels, as many people mistakenly think. How is she not a functioning goddess? Because in ancient, I did some research on Greek and Roman gods, goddesses, and they have the same abilities that Mary has. I mean, they're goddesses.

They're all fictional. Mary was a real person, as you know. She's a historical human being.

Yeah. She was, but I believe that Mary you serve, I believe that Mary you serve is fictional. I don't serve Mary. She's the epitome of the perfect, you know, disciple of Christ. So you look at people that are exemplary figures, you know, people to look up to and to imitate, as Paul says, imitate us, right?

We looked at those people to imitate. Well, let's see if you serve Mary or not. Let's see if you agree with this out of paragraph 972 out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says, after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. So after speaking of the church, her origin, the origin of the church, the mission of the church, the destiny of the church, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary.

Do you agree with that? Let's see, after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. I think what the passage is saying is that Mary is the perfect example of a faithful and humble disciple of Christ. And Scripture would show that's true.

Okay. And it goes on to say in her we contemplate what the church already is in her own ministry and her own pilgrimage of faith and what she'll be in the homeland at the end of her journey there. And they're speaking of the church. Let me ask you, who originated the Christian church? Was it Mary or Jesus?

It was Jesus. Who gives the church its mission? Who gives the church its mission? Is it Mary or Jesus?

Jesus at the end of Matthew. The church's mission is to go and make disciples of all nations, recognizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Who gives the church its destiny, appoints a destiny? Is it Mary or is it Jesus? The church's destiny would be a Trinitarian origin, I think.

Okay, good. So it says after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, which you said all of it's based about Christ, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. I guess looking to Mary is better than looking to Jesus regarding the origin of the church, the mission of the church, and the destiny of the church. That's what it says. But it says after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, then we look to Mary as the perfect model of a Christian, which is a model of patience and mercy and humility and obedience to her son. That's not what it says there. It says after speaking of the church. I think that's what that sentence says and that's what that sentence means. If you read that context of the whole paragraph.

It doesn't say that. After speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. Regarding the church's origin, mission, and destiny, after speaking of the church, her origin, the origin of the church, the mission of the church, the destiny of the church, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary.

Wow. What does it mean by saying no better way to conclude? By saying it means no better way to conclude, that means that we as Christians need to, after speaking of the very church, the origin, mission, and destiny, who are we going to model ourselves after as humans?

Of course, we always want to follow Christ. But as a human, what human did that better than any other human on the face of the earth? That's Mary. Oh, I don't know. That's what that paragraph says. I don't know if that's the case.

I don't know if that's the case. Tell me a sin that Mary committed. Okay, look, it doesn't say she committed a sin. It doesn't say that Matthew committed a sin either. It doesn't say Joseph committed a sin. So if you're going to say it doesn't say that they committed a sin, therefore they didn't have any sin, it's ridiculous because that same logic would apply to others. Yeah, but in all of Christian history, in all of Christian history, the Christians have always believed that Mary was sinless. No, that's not true. No, I'm sorry, you haven't done your homework there.

That's just not true. But look, so here's the thing, is that you're saying that Mary has the same ability as a goddess. She can hear prayers. Yeah, that's what a goddess can do. That's what a goddess can do.

Well, that's what a goddess can do in fiction. But in Christian history, certain figures in Christian history can be venerated to a higher degree. So in the Old Testament you have figures like Moses and Abraham and David and people like that. In the New Testament you have the apostles, you have Joseph, Mary. So you have certain people that Paul tells us we are supposed to imitate. You venerate Mary.

Excuse me? I'm a venerator. How do you venerate Mary? You venerate Mary by recognizing her unique role in Christian history. And her unique role is that she is the mother of God. She's the mother of Jesus Christ who is God in man.

By recognizing certain qualities. She models for us the perfect obedience to the Son throughout. She has a seminal place in Christian history and in the Christian faith. Do you also kneel before Mary? Do you bow down before Mary? Do you like prostrate before Mary in Catholicism?

Yes, you do. You can actually be on a knee in front of another human being. So talk about Mary, not just another human being. Mary who can hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought all over the world.

And she can comprehend them and answer them. That's a functioning goddess. And according to the Bible when they would venerate God, they'd bow down to God, they'd bow down to Mary. They'd prostrate before God. They'd do prostration before Mary. They'd kiss objects, but that's only mentioned in paganism in Baal in 1 Kings 19. But they kiss Mary. I've seen churches where they kiss the statues of Mary. They do pilgrimages in the Old Testament. They do pilgrimages to the holy hills, holy mountains. Do the same thing with Mary.

The very same thing. In fact, when they do with Mary, you do the same thing with God you do with Mary. In fact, you give similar attributes to Mary you give to God. She's a functioning goddess.

I don't think so, no. I mean, we don't believe that Mary can, you know, create. We don't think that Mary can, you know, make the perfect sacrifice like Christ didn't forgive sin.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. But what Ludwig Ott said. What Mary can do. Ludwig Ott contradicts you. He said that Mary, by entering into the spiritual sacrifice of a divine son, made atonement for our sins.

Yeah, I've never met Ludwig Ott. So I don't know what he says. But I know what the church says. And the church says that.

But that has a neolobestad in it for matter. Which means it's official. It means nothing in it contradicts scripture. Or contradicts the teachings of the church. It's given by a bishop. I think it's a bishop or a cardinal. It's a bishop. And so it says Mary, by her spiritual entering into the divine sacrifice of her son, made atonement for our sins. No. Yeah, that's pretty sad.

Yeah, I don't know who Ludwig Ott is. But what I'll tell you is that, you know, in the glory of the most holy and undivided trinity, in the communion of all the saints, the church is awaited by the one Mary venerates. And as mother of her lord and as her own mother, the church sees Mary as the mother of the church. So it goes clear back to, you know, Ephesus in 431, when the church declared Mary as the mother of God. It's been centuries before your type of theology came along and wanted to wipe that all away. So you've got a much more modern view.

I've been to Ephesus, too. But I've got another question. I'm running out of time. It's a changed topic, but I've got a question for you. Okay?

I don't want to ask you. Okay, we'll see. I'm going to test you. I'm trying to set you up.

Ready? You are or aren't? I am. I'm trying. Okay.

Go ahead. So, now, do you Catholics and Muslims, do you serve and worship the same God? You know, there is one God. And different people have different approaches to worshipping the thing that they identify as God. Now, I think that the Trinitarian God is certainly the Catholic God. And Muslims deny the Trinity. So, in that sense, no. Okay, so do they adore the one merciful God, just like you do?

There's a claim to. Do you? Well, they don't. Because we're Trinitarian, the answer to that would be no.

I think they think they do. They see something as the all-powerful Creator, as we do. But they don't recognize the Trinity, so it's flawed. Okay, so paragraph 841 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which also has a neo-Lobstadt and the imprimatur.

Just like Ludwig von Ott's book. Ludwig Ott's book, page 213, which says about Mary through the atonement. So, the Church's relationship to the Muslim. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place, amongst whom are the Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us, they adore the one merciful God mankind's judge on the last day. Yeah, but they only adore one person of the Trinity, so that'd be the Creator.

So, maybe they're... They adore the one merciful God. It says the one merciful God. But it says the plan, they acknowledge the Creator. So that's God, one person of the Trinity. This is 841, okay?

Yeah, I'm looking at it. The Muslims, these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us, the Muslims, with the Catholics, they adore the one merciful God. Yeah, so God the Father.

That didn't say that. They won't call him Father, but that's who they mean. So, they're looking at one person of the Trinity, and so we're saying, hmm, okay. So, the Jews, what would you say about the Jews? Do they acknowledge God, the Creator? We're talking about Islam right now.

So, I want you to, I'm just focusing here. So, paragraph 841 says that you guys and the Muslims adore the one merciful God, the same one. That's not true. And you do, too, as a Christian. You would say God the Father is the Creator, and you worship him. No, Muslims have a false God, okay? Yeah, I think they certainly have a false perception of God.

No, they have a false God. Okay, we've got to go. Sorry, buddy. Call back tomorrow, okay? Sorry. It's hard to rush you off.

Maybe. All right. See you, Matt. Thank you. Bye. Hey, folks. We're out of here. God bless. Talk to you tomorrow.