Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. It's live. I had a little bit of an unexpected something that arose yesterday, and we had to do a rerun.

That happens. If you want to give me a call, today is, let's see, March 4th. It's a Friday. So give me a call. 877-207-2276.

I want to hear from you. Give me a call. And if you're a newbie to the show, this is a Christian apologetics show.

Apologetics being a branch of Christian theology that deals with the defense and the establishment of the Christian faith. So if that all sounds intriguing, if it sounds wonderful, if you like it and all of that kind of stuff, you know, all you got to do is give me a call. We have follow, we have wide open lines, 877-207-2276. Now, as I often do on Fridays more and more, because people like it, they say, is I read some hate mail. And for those of you who may not be initiated into my kind of humor, which apparently I do have a good sense of humor, even if I do say so myself, I enjoy hate mail.

I don't know what it is about me, but probably something not right mentally. Of course, my wife is saying, amen. So I do hate mail and people enjoy it. So I'm going to read some and I want you to give me a call in the meantime. 877-207-2276. And we can talk. All right. I turn my phone down.

I keep forgetting to do that. You know, let's see. There we go. Okay, get that right there because when it's all set up on the, okay, so, um, check this out.

Uh, let's see. What do you insist that your, wait, why do you insist that God fit your mold? The father, son, and holy spirit have demonstrated that they are not averse to women proclaiming their message to anyone. Now, what this person is responding to is my very biblical and correct view that women are not to be pastors and elders. Now, again, as I say this over the years, I'll say, if you don't believe me, you think I'm wrong biblically, let's do a public debate. Let's use the scriptures. What does the Bible say? And in 17 years of radio doing this five days a week, not a single instance.

If I had anybody say, yeah, let's debate, let's do a public debate on it. And why is that? Because they know I'll do this mean thing. It's mean.

I'll quote scripture and say, what do you think about this? What about that? It says this right here.

Right here. And they don't like that. So, uh, and look, notice how the person misrepresents me. So it demonstrated that they are not averse to women proclaiming their message to anyone. I didn't say women can't, uh, proclaim their message. I just, that's not the issue. The issue is they can't be women. I mean, they can't be pastors and elders. May God help you see with your own eyes that Jesus never recorded suggesting male dominance.

In fact, his practice was to subvert it where he could, as in the cases of the woman at the well sent to the Samaritans, uh, the adulterous woman met Mary of Bethany and, uh, that's the woman sent with disciples. Well, this is, I did check the woman sent me this and I would love to talk to her. I'd love to talk to her. Her name is Judy. If by any chance you're listening and, uh, you know, email was sent a while back, but you know, you want to listen and you want to say, yeah, I'll challenge you.

Please do give me a call. God says, as for me, my way is equal. So what normally happens when people, uh, you know, they, they talk to me about stuff like this, I like to listen to the verses being ripped out of context.

You can hear the sound because they're ripped out of context. They don't apply. Um, the first Timothy three in the Greek teaches that anyone can desire the office of elder or deacon has verse 11 summarizes that all that all applies to men. Equal applies to women, to women likewise.

This person, no offense, man, but she could not exegete her way out of a wet paper bag. All right. Uh, so let me just reiterate, women are not to be pastors and elders. Ladies and gentlemen, that is the truth. And if you disagree with me, you're wrong. Not because you disagree with me, because that's not, you know, I'm just doing what the Bible says. And if you go to a church with a woman, pastor, women elders, you should leave.

You shouldn't be in a church with a woman, pastor, women, elders, you should leave, you shouldn't be in a church like that if they can't even get that right. Why should you trust them to get anything else? Right. All right. Let's Ooh, this is a big one. I'm going to do this to get to the caller here in a seven year, four open lines.

877-207-2276. I, hi, I'm a fellow Christian. I am soon going to begin a peace revolution against circumstances that are prominent and catastrophic in the world, mainly violence, racism, and social discrimination, or any others I can tackle along this journey of mine. My mission was inspired by God himself to me many weeks ago, and I haven't put a solid plan together just yet, but basically God anointed me to be his disciple, to learn in life and share the truth with all. For I have much to say and much to even write about. On a website called, and I won't repeat what it is, I have done a lot of things involving assisting people with their situations and problems and helping them understand God and who is he that most are unaware about.

If you'd like, you can look my account under and it gives some weird name. I won't, I want to take my role outside into the real world. Now, if I want to make an even larger impact among the people, I admit to my being a Bible novice, yeah, I would say so. Let's see. Reality is saying religion is indoctrinated corruption against originality of spirituality. Politics is an enactment of lies and deceit and pride. Pretty accurate. Government is an Illuminati enacts murder. Ooh, man.

Media denies truth worldwide and all those, but media denies truth. Anyway, so, uh, you can tell this person, you know, put it nicely. It does not have all his paws in the litter box. So, uh, yeah, it's quantum tunneling is not listed. One, one, one more and we'll get to the callers.

Let's see. Jesus says, Oh, look at this confidential. Uh, Jesus is not God.

All scripture is not inspired by God. The Holy spirit is God. If you want to know more contact me, I am the spirit of the Holy spirit.

I am the spirit of truth sent from God almighty. Wow. So, uh, you know, when someone, if I was next to someone like that and they, they said that, you know, first thing you should do is take a step back, you know, two, three steps back because you don't want the lightning bolt to get you, you know, you want to be a little on the safe side to say, you're talking arrogance, denying the truth and that, uh, they are the spirit of truth sent from God almighty.

They don't have any pause in the litter box. I'll tell you that, uh, their oil is not viscous. Okay. So, uh, there you go.

A nice little bit of fun time with the, uh, the hate mail and a little bit of wacko mail in there too. Let's get to Mitchell from Charlotte, North Carolina. Mitchell. Welcome. You're on the air. Hey Matt, how you doing? Doing all right, man. Doing all right. Hang in there.

What do you got buddy? Um, so my question is, why did, uh, God require a blood sacrifice? Because the life's on the blood, uh, Acts 17, 11, and ultimately the blood sacrifice was pointing ahead to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the blood represented that death and the shedding and the thing that could be sprinkled upon, because you gotta understand another principle that when, when you have an element in a holy place, it is sanctified by an oil or water or blood applied to it as though that object receives something from something else. So the anointing as Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit, it came upon him at his baptism, which I believe he was sprinkled, that's another topic, according to Levitical law, entering into the priesthood, signifying his anointing. Signifying his anointing and so the anointing of the blood is also symbolized in the shedding of blood by which our sins are washed away and cleansed away.

Um, and so all that points thematically to, uh, the point of, of, of the death of Christ and the cross, that's why. Well, that was a really good answer. Actually explained everything that I was, uh, had questions about.

So that's really all I got. Okay. No problem. All right, buddy. You too. God bless. All right. Comment. Ooh. Hey, let's see what this Mary Ellen, Salt Lake City, Utah.

Welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. Hi. I've got some speaker phone.

So, well, I guess one, uh, I'm going to have to, you know, speaker phone. I'm getting feedback. Hold on just a second. Okay. Sure.

Okay. I just went to Salem for Carolina for two weeks and, um, I got to meet Stu Epperson and the Christian car guy. I went up there to meet and to tell them how much I love this show. And I told him how much I love you, Matt, because I'm Christian in the Bible. Uh, my pastor is the one that has gotten me into the Bible, but he's the one that has gotten me to, uh, start reading the Bible and I love it so much. And you've helped me so much. And, um, I mean, God has just really used you to teach me also my pastor at the church that I go to.

And, um, I, I just wanted to tell you, thank you. And the later it called in the beginning of the show or the letter, I mean, the letter that's about women being pastors and all that. Um, so I used to believe the same way she was. I was born and raised on to Mormon and, um, left the church when I was 28. I'm now 63, but I used to believe the way she did.

And I was very angry, you know, uh, no chauvinism explained it so well. You've explained it so well in my pastor has taught me so well, um, through the Bible. So if she just reads more and she reads, it reads from the Bible.

And if she would go to church, uh, that teaches strictly out of the Bible, then she would understand. Hopefully. And, um, again, I don't want to take up any more of your time, but I love you guys. And I, I love you. I didn't even know he was the owner of the radio station and I met him and they, they greeted me at the door, the whole office.

I gave him a month's notice that I was coming out. They had a big banner. Welcome Mary Ellen. I mean, what a, how beautiful.

And they all hugged me and they gave me a birthday present cause it was my birthday. Oh wow. Yeah. I am so, so very grateful. So thank you for letting God speak to you.

You're welcome. Well, let me tell you something about Stu a little bit and the crew. I've met them, uh, before and Stu, how do I say this politely, uh, has arranged it, uh, that I'm able to be on here, even though he's had, uh, offers to have others who could, let's just say, financially help him out even more. And he has, oh, amen. I believe that he said no.

You want to let me, let me add, let me add, let me add to that. So the reason why I didn't know he was the owner of the radio station is cause that's how humble a man this man is. I mean, I just couldn't even believe it. I didn't know until after I had come back home and had gone to church there in, um, it's called food wave arena, North Carolina.

So I traveled two hours from that. And at the church, they're the, they're the people that told me that, well, yeah, he owns that radio station. I'm like, he's the owner of the whole network.

Oh yeah. So that's, that's how humble he is. He's a good guy. He wants Jesus glorified. And so he's a good man of God. And his goal is to use radio as a means of reaching out. And that's what he's doing.

He is doing it. And you know, I shared with at least 25 people in North Carolina about this radio station and I told them about you, the truth answer man. And I also, uh, I told them about all the shows. I tell everybody at least 25 people. I told, gave them the radio stations.

Cause I looked it up as soon as I got there. So the every, cause I'm like, you know what? I used to be like you. There's a break. Okay. I love you. Bye. I love you. Bye. All right. Very good. God bless.

Well, I didn't mean for her to go, but, uh, we do have a break. Hey folks, for open lines, you want to give me a call? 877-207-2276.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back to the show everybody. Let's get on the phones with Anthony from Virginia. Anthony.

Welcome. You're on the air. Hey Matt. Uh, I kind of have two questions for you. The main question I have is about your comments about women serving in the, in the, uh, church, but, um, I'm kind of curious, is there a place you go regularly to debate people that's like not on your show where there's kind of like an open forum? Yes, I go to a clubhouse. I go to stream, um, uh, discord, uh, go to second life.

Uh, those are the main ones right now. Facebook. Of course, the Facebook people, you really can't have many dialogues, so it doesn't work that well. But, uh, for live dialogues, I usually go to discord or, um, clubhouse. Discord or clubhouse. Yeah.

All right. If, uh, I guess if someone that wanted to have a formal debate with you that was publicly broadcasted, would those be the places to go or how would you do that? We, uh, if you want, if anybody wants to debate me, just depends on who they are and what the situation is, what they want to do. Um, formal debates, uh, take me a lot of time to prep for generally speaking.

I prefer just to have discussions, but, um, if people want to do that, depending on who it is, I will or will not agree. And a lot of times we get Bob, you know, the mechanic who says, I'm going to debate you in the Trinity. And I go, you know what the Trinity is? Yeah.

Three gods. And I'm, I'm not debating. You don't even know what it is, you know? And so, uh, I don't just accept every challenge.

It's gotta be, you know, kind of have to be able to take it seriously, you know? So why do you want to debate me? Okay. Yeah, I do actually, because, uh, I don't agree with very much of anything you say, but I think you, uh, uh, no, I didn't say that. I don't agree with your, yeah.

If you don't agree with very much of what I say, then that means, you know, also don't agree with very much of the doctrine of the Trinity, the deity of Christ, justification by faith, his physical resurrection, right? True. Yeah. I don't agree with much of that at all. Yeah. You're a Christian. Okay. So what I don't agree with that, I don't agree. There's an interpretive framework there you're using called reformed theology.

And I don't think it properly reflects the Christian faith. So, oh, I didn't think I was that good looking. I appreciate that though. Uh, I understand that one, to be honest. No, no, no.

My wife, you know, no, she doesn't, she's a good cook. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

What's your plan? I have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, you mean interpretations not up for grabs. Oh, see, I was thinking that, you know, if you just think that, you know, the idea of interpreting things is up to one perspective because of this or that, I can do the same thing with whatever you say.

No. Well, no, I don't, I don't, that's not what I see. That's not what I said. I believe your interpretation is incorrect. I don't think people are free to make up their own of the, of the Christian. Well, well, can I, can I first ask you the question about the, with the women in the church?

Cause I think that's what I initially called about. But do you even believe the Bible is true? Okay. Let me ask you, do you believe it's true? Uh, largely. Yes, largely.

Whoa. So let me get this straight. You want to debate me on stuff about Christianity and you don't even take the Bible seriously and you think you're a Christian and you know how to interpret stuff. Well, I believe it's, it's trustworthy to, um, but there are, there are questions about certain aspects of it and like, um, well again, I, I can get into that, but I wanted to quickly, like what? I'm sure everybody wants to hear this.

Who's listening. So tell me what is not trustworthy in the scriptures. Um, well they are written, unfortunately they're written by men. So we can't fallacy. So it was written by men. It's not going to be accurate.

Okay. Would it be accurate if it was written by women? Well, it was written by human beings is the point. So we, we have to, you said, so you're backtracking. So written by humans.

Okay. So there's no such thing as inspiration then, right? There is, but it can't be assumed.

So we have to wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The Bible says it's written by inspiration. Do you agree or disagree with what the Bible says about itself?

Again, unfortunately there's no way to verify that. So we kind of have to disagree with what the Bible says about itself. Just curious. Uh, where does it say, where does the Bible claim its own self-inspiration?

Okay. So all scriptures inspired of God. 2 Timothy 3 16. So the Jesus authenticated the Old Testament documents as being scripture. And Peter certainly authenticated Paul's writings of scripture.

The early church recognized the New Testament 27 books of scripture. So are they inspired? There is inspiration in the Bible. The question is, give me, give me an instance of something that's inspired in the Bible from God. Right.

Give me something. Uh, well, like when the, the prophets, uh, speak the words of God, that would be, you know, that would be inspired, but maybe some of the more narrative aspects of it are not inspired. We have to. So when Paul was speaking, giving instruction to the church in the book of Timothy, is that inspired or not inspired? Uh, probably not my opinion. Okay.

Okay. So is Jesus God in flesh? Um, that's also a good question. I, is he God in flesh?

I can't say. I think I fall on the, on the, on the side that he's not the same entity as God. I'm informing you. I'm not mad at you. I'm not name calling, but you are absolutely not a Christian. You do not have the spirit of God in you. You are not enlightened. You are under demonic influence and, uh, you don't know how to execute scripture. And you want to argue with me and debate with me on women's roles in the church. If I'd use scripture, do you believe in and trust in it? And you're an unbeliever to begin with. I'm sorry. I can't take you seriously.

Well, even if you do accept a literalist interpretation of scripture, it does seem to indicate that women can serve, uh, as, as pastoral roles in the church. Okay. Um, so you have no idea what you're talking about. Okay. Just informing you.

All right. So you don't even know who Jesus is. And if you want to pretend to yourself that you know who Christ is and what is and is not inspired, then you are simply deceiving yourself. You do not have the spirit of God in you. And unfortunately, if you were to die right now, you'd go to hell. And I don't want that for you. You've not trusted in Christ. I think the same thing about you, but I'm not going to go into that. Well, I'm just telling you, Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. John 8 24. You don't believe he's the, I am.

Yep. Hey, you don't believe that. So under his words, you're, you're damned. Okay.

I believe he rose again. That's a, that's a very, that's a very cryptic statement. That is very difficult to interpret.

Oh, cryptic. So if it doesn't agree with your theology, now it's cryptic. No, I'm just saying that there's, it's difficult to interpret that in a literalistic manner.

It's hard to know exactly what Jesus is saying. Well, I'm very familiar with all these, you don't even believe the Bible. So, you know, you're like an atheist. It's like talking to an atheist. Okay.

Where truth is relative and it's subjective based on your preferences. It's no, that's not, I'm not saying that I'm saying there is only one correct interpretation of the Bible, but determining it is, is not straightforward because some of the verses in the Bible are difficult to understand and know exactly what they're saying. Okay. So you're not even saved. Look, your first priority is to become a Christian, a real Christian, not a fake one. You are that, and you're under a state of judgment right now. You need to repent from the faith in Christ. I'm just warning you.

That's all informative. Pastor, we got to go. There's the break.

And we have four open lines. Want to give me a call 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show Bottom of the Hour. Let's get on the phone here with Jim from North Carolina. Jim, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey Matt. Good having the opportunity to speak with you tonight. Oh, thank you. And so on Sunday school, I've got a lesson. I'm starting up on 1 Thessalonians.

Okay. And I'm reading 1 John 10, and it says, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. And then I go to Revelations 3 10, where it says, Now I know that you're really more, I guess, what, like a post-millennialism person. And quite frankly, I've listened to you long enough, you've talked me into it.

I'm a millennial. But just wanted to kind of reconcile this, and that way, if the question comes up in Sunday school on Sunday, that I'm not flat-handed. Okay.

And by the way, too, a lot of times you go into this scripture, you make a bunch of scriptural references supporting your view, which is good. But go slow, because I'm going to try to write down as you go. All right.

Sounds good. So here's the number one key. When you want to understand something you think has a contradiction, or, you know, isn't quite clear. Number one, well, you pray.

Always ask for guidance, a spiritual issue. But after that, what you have to do is define your terms. Always define your terms. So let me give you an illustration. You see, and I used this illustration last night in a Bible study. See, the fact is that, you know, my scalpel, my doctrinal scalpel is very sharp.

The reason it's sharp is because for years I've been sharpening against that rock, the rock of Christ and his truth and his word. And because of it, I'm able to go in, I think pretty well, and I'm sure I got some things wrong, but I'm not perfect. But go in and divide truth from error.

You can clearly just delineate things and mark this out and get rid of the stuff that's bad and the filth and the stuff. So always define your terms because that's where you sharpen your tools. So what does the word wrath mean here in 1 Thessalonians 1.10? Don't assume anything when you come to the text, except for things like Jesus is God and he rose from the dead, of course. But people commonly make a mistake, think that the word wrath there means, like, for example, tribulation, the seventh or tribulation period.

And it doesn't. Nothing in the text says tribulation period. And when you go to Revelation 3.10, you've kept my word.

It's like talking to the Church of Philadelphia, which I've been there historically, the historical location. I also will keep you from the hour of testing, the hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. And the word here to test, you look at that, if that's what you're asking about, is paradzo. And it means to test by trial. It does not mean that it's the wrath of tribulation, nor does it mean it's the wrath of judgment to damnation.

Because the Bible says, for example, God is destined not for wrath, but salvation. 1 Thessalonians 2.8, I believe it is. And if that's the case, let me make sure I didn't know that. No, that's not it. 2.9. Oh, I've got to find it.

I would like to get these things right. Destined to us for wrath. And so, destined to us, where is that? There we go. 1 Thessalonians 5.9.

Here's an example of something. For God is not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation. People will use this verse to say we're not going to go through the tribulation. But it has nothing to do with the tribulation. The word wrath is juxtaposed with the word salvation. So therefore, it's the opposite of salvation. Not this, but that.

Not good, but, or not bad, but good. And so, you know what the word wrath means in that context. And 1 Thessalonians 5.9 deals with damnation. When we're talking about the issue of 1 Thessalonians 1.10, and he's talking about this issue of wrath. Wow, how did that happen? All these things come up.

Wow, that's interesting. Okay, there we go. Who rescues us from the wrath to come. That's dealing with the issue of damnation. So it is not related at all to Revelation 3.10, because that's about a tribulation to come, not about the eternal judgment of the wrath.

Okay? Okay, so it's not the same, the testing in Revelation 3.10 is not the same as the wrath in 1.10. And I'm going to 5.9 now, thank you for that. And I do see that actually makes the correlation much more understandable. So thank you for bringing that to my attention. So here's the thing.

That will give me, I think, pretty much what I need. Good, so let me reiterate. Don't assume.

I don't know what your position is, but you've heard me probably talk about two men are in the field, one is taken, one is left. You've heard me talk about that. Right, and Matthew, yes.

And Luke 17. Yeah, and people say that's the rapture. Well, it's not. You read the context, and it's not. But when people just assume it is, and then they don't do any thinking or examination, then they have all kinds of problems, because they're just assuming things.

And I tell people, don't assume. Check it out. Read the context. Does the one word in one verse, and another word in another verse, are they similar in their meaning of the context? That's the issue. And I wouldn't have a clue about the Greek, so if the same type of word used in the context of where it is, I wouldn't know how to understand the difference from one Greek to the other. And so I couldn't come close.

I'll tell you what, you don't need to know a whole bunch. But if you go to blueletterbible.org, what you can do. Yeah, I've been there. Yeah, and you can just go there, and you can type in like 1 Thessalonians, let's see, I'm gonna do it right now, 1 10, okay? And there it is. And then next to it, it says tools on the left-hand side, and now I'm scrolling down to the word from the wrath, and it's orgies, right there. And then I put my mouse over G3709.

I'm doing this right now. And then it comes up, and it gives you different references. Anger, the natural disposition, temper, character, movement or agitation of the soul, wrath, anger, indignation. And that's just one of the ways to find out. And so you look, and you say, oh, down further, Strong's Concordance to Team, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits. Well, what's that got to do with anything? And you read, that's how it's used in one particular area of a Greek manuscript, and that's not biblical.

So they look, well, how is it used in different places? And they find these things out. And this is how you learn. It's easy. It's easy. You could get two tabs, and you can go to one verse with one tab, and another verse with the other tab, and then look at the words. And then you can do a search, like for the word orgae, which is 3709.

I don't know how to do it in here. Let's see, verse or word, let's see, 3709. Let's see what happens if I just type that in up there. Spell orgae.

Yeah. And so then, yeah, orgae, and then there it is. And so now the word, now I just found out where it occurs in other things by using the Blue Letter Bible. So now you can go, oh, the word occurs here, here, here, here. Oh, and then you can get a fuller understanding of the words.

That's how you study. And when you do that. So what I'm kind of gathering here then, the wrath here is speaking of those that are not saved. But, and so they are going to have the wrath that the Christians won't have. It may not necessarily be anything relating to the tribulation. It may have to do with the final judgment and where you end up as being the wrath, the wrath of the unsaved, of which the saved will not have.

Yeah. Well, look what it says in 1 Thessalonians 1.10. And to wait for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. See, rescues us from the wrath.

That's damnation. Don't let the pre-trib thing just flow in your head as though it's true. Don't assume it is. And when you check everything out, you'll find, oh, hey, a lot of stuff clears up. Okay. Okay.

Well, thank you also, too. I called a couple of, earlier in the week about the reset and everything. And you offered to dial in on Tuesday night. I felt like it was like that game show where you dial a friend. Dial a friend to get the answer. And I told the guys, but it wasn't the time to call, ask you to dial in. But I appreciated the offer very much. The guys did, too.

They were like, cool. So maybe in the future. You never know. Oh, yeah. People have done that. And then usually there's plenty to talk about afterwards as the leaders clean up the mess and do counseling. So again, it gives you a lot to do. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

All right, man. Well, if you've got other callers, take them. If not, I'll be happy to carry you to the next commercial break. Well, we got four callers waiting.

So if you want, you can call back. Maybe get through all of them in the next break. Rock and roll, man. Take care of yourself. All right, buddy. God bless you. All right.

And there's the music. And then we're gonna get back with, let's see, Emery from Charlotte. Okay. We'll see what he has to say. May the Lord bless you. Be right back. After these messages, please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back, everyone. Last segment of the hour on this nice Friday. Let's get to Emery from Charlotte, North Carolina.

Emery, welcome. You are on the air. How are you doing there today? I'm doing all right.

Doing all right. What do you got, ma'am? I got a question.

I've got one book that says other C5s have a, that's not his fault. I'm with Brigham. I'm sorry. I can't understand you. I can't understand you. I'm sorry. You're gonna have to speak up.

He has one plot. Can you hear me now? Yeah. If you could just speak a little bit more slowly, so I can understand you. What's your question? Yeah. This person's got me.

Yeah, he says other C5s I have are not of this fold. They said I must bring them. They hear my voice. And it'd be one shepherd and one plot. Yes. The other sheep. This is out of John 10 16. I have other sheep which are not of this fold. Uh, that's the Gentiles. Is that what that is?

I'm sorry? Is that what that is, the Gentiles? Yeah, because he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And he says my sheep hear my voice. The lost sheep of the house of Israel is Matthew 15 24. He says my sheep hear my voice, John 10 27 28. So, uh, we know that all of us who are saved are, in that sense, his sheep. So when he says other sheep which are not of this fold, he's talking metaphorically, uh, Israel is, uh, the one fold.

The Gentiles are the others. Okay. Yeah, I thought it was sent from outer space or something. I'm sorry. I can't understand you, brother. All right.

He said I thought it was sent from outer space. Okay, I'm still not able... You gotta understand, I have a hearing loss, okay? I wear hearing aids, and, you know, I'm 65, so I blew my ears out when I was young, doing stupid stuff. And so... Yeah, I understand. Oh, sorry, brother. I appreciate it. Okay, well, well, thanks. Hope that helped.

All right. All right, let's get to Ron from Utah. Ron, welcome.

You're on the air. Hey, Matt, how you doing? Doing all right, man. Doing all right.

Hanging in. What do you got, buddy? Okay, a question on the heliocentric model of the cosmos. Okay.

I was wondering how you reconcile heliocentrism with the creation account Genesis 1 verses 1 through 13. Let me ask. I'm gonna answer it.

But do you affirm heliocentricity? No. Okay.

I used to. Okay. Yeah, it's just obviously it's not true. And nothing in the early chapters of Genesis requires heliocentricity.

It just doesn't require it. And if you were to read from the perspective of someone on Earth, as you go to Genesis 1, what you find is just a perspective of human seeing and looking and learning. And the sun rises, as the Bible says. Well, that must mean that the Earth is a center. The sun is smaller and far away, right?

I know. The Bible doesn't necessitate heliocentricity at all. It just doesn't. But you do believe in heliocentric model, correct? No. Oh, you do not? Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, wait. Okay.

You know what? I just got my wires crossed. And I don't know what I was thinking. I was thinking of geocentricity, not helio. Because of somebody. Yeah, it's just I got my wires crossed. Let me back up.

Heliocentricity, the sun being the center. Yes, of course, I affirm that. Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay, so now in that context of Genesis 1, 1 through 13, how can you have a heliocentric model?

By just assuming it's true and nothing in the scripture negates it? What's the problem? Well, you have evening and morning, days one, two, and three, Yeah. before the sun is created on day four.

Yeah. So what's the problem with that? So there's no sun. Evening and morning are not caused by rotation. And... How do you know that?

Say again? How do you know it's not caused by rotation? How do you also know that it isn't God providing the light? How do you also know that's from the human perspective, that the creation of the sun is the manifestation of its visible occurrence? Okay.

No, I agree. There is light. God created light on day one. But there's no sun that causes the light. And the earth, until day three, the earth is submerged in massive, unspeakable tons of water.

Okay. So there's no sun. There's evening and morning.

Yeah. And then finally, the sun is created on day four. And its purpose is to give light upon the earth. If you read that, if you read that and you didn't know anything about NASA, you've never seen a space launch, you never see the moon landing, never saw images from NASA, how could you read that? How could you read that text and say, and say, oh, the earth is revolving around the sun? I don't see how people, I don't think that they normally would.

I think they would probably assume a geocentricity. Okay. All right.

I agree with that. So are you saying then that NASA influences our thinking on the nature of the cosmos? Of course it does. Would you say that most Christians read the scripture, the creation account through the prism of NASA's revelation?

I don't know what most Christians would do. Cause I can't answer that. Okay.

So you, but you just admitted though, that if someone read it and you didn't know about NASA, they would assume geocentrism. No, I said I could see why they would. I didn't say they would. Okay. Why wouldn't they?

I don't know if they ask individuals. So are you a Christian? Why wouldn't you? Well, are you a Christian or not? Yes, I am. Do you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?

Absolutely. I'm a pastor. We worked together. You came out and worked with us in 2016. Where? You did a presentation at Weber State on Islam. Oh, down there in Utah. Yeah.

We had guards and everything. Okay. So I came to this, I came to this perspective, uh, in April and, uh, I mean, it radically changed my view of creation. Okay. Well, what perspective?

Uh, well, the literal interpretation of scripture as it relates to the creation. I, I didn't realize it, but I was reading the text. I gotcha. So you say, okay, so you, you believe in, or are you saying you believe in geocentricity? Yes.

Okay. Could it be logically that God, uh, created the earth and it was formless? It was void. He, he then made the heavens and the earth, or he, you know, he did this stuff, he lights separation of the waters and below the dry land, and it was just out there in space.

And then he created the sun and set the moon or set the earth around it. Is that possible? Um, show me from the scriptures and I'll agree with it. I didn't ask if it was.

But if you read the scriptures. Hold on a sec. I just asked, is that possible? That's the question I asked. Is it possible? I would, well, is it possible? And I, the, the script answer would be yes, it is.

Okay. So it's, it's possible. So you're, you're negating it.

You have to negate it from scripture. Now you've got to understand something too, that day one and day four are related and day two and five are related. And day three and day six are related on day one. There's light on day four. There's the sun on day two, there's separation of waters from above and below. And on day five, there's water creatures. And day three, there's dry land, seas, and plants on day six.

There's cattle and creeping things. So one, two, three is parallel with four or five, six is called the framework hypothesis, which suggests that something else is going on inside of the text. Okay. Well, I understand the hypothesis, but if you take a little interpretation of the six day creation, which I do, I assume you do as well. Is that correct? Uh, more or less.

Yes, more or less. Okay. So the reality is the sun was not in existence until day four. How do you know?

Because God said, God said, he created it. So here's the thing. And so here's something to think about, you know, to think about is that, uh, let's see, is that, uh, I'm looking for the first reference that he created light, and then the sun is on day four and that's in, uh, okay.

Genesis one 14. So let me take a look. Okay.

I want to look, check something out. Okay. God, let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens.

Separate the day of the night and let them be for signs. Okay. So it just says lights. Um, okay. So you're, okay.

So it says lights and you're just, you're saying that each light must means correspond to the sun and the moon. Okay. I think that's reasonable. Now here's a perspective. Um, because this is what happened to me. Nothing. What I'm saying is my experience means anything. I'm almost out of time here.

I'm going to hustle. I didn't realize what time it was is that I read the Bible when I was young or started to read the Bible and I threw it away because of the first, uh, two, three chapters of Genesis, because I said I was an evolutionist at the time. I said, look, it doesn't work. You don't have the sun first and all this stuff. I then later I was reading a scientific article and, um, a guy hypothesized. What would you see from the perspective of earth? If the earth was forming and technically like that, what would you see? Well, first you'd see light, the separation of the waters. He didn't reference the Bible, but he was describing the exact same order. You see the dry land and then the photosynthesis with the, uh, of the sun, like cosmic rays that gave the formula would cause the atmosphere to clear up.

Then you see the sun. And I was stunned because I thought this is exactly what the scriptures are teaching. And so I, over the years I thought about that and wondered because it is from the perspective of a person walking on the earth and from that perspective, you would see, it looks like God is creating things. And so I don't discount that.

Let me interject something. I would disagree with you. It's because it's from the perspective of God who is creating and there's no one. I mean, no man has ever looked up and seen these waters in the heavens or a light without the sun. So I would disagree with your premise. Yeah. Well, I understand, but it, it, but God knows and he does things from our perspective all the time. And in Genesis three and Genesis, he's walking with Adam and Eve in the garden from a human perspective.

We're seeing this. I don't want to just negate it. So if you're going to go with geocentricity, are you then saying also that the entire universe is revolving around the earth? Um, yes, but it's in the dome of the firmament. So you're a flat earther. You've heard a little flat earth.

No, I'm a biblical, I'm a biblical cosmologist. Okay. That's, that's just ambivalent ambiguous.

What? So you, you do not affirm, hold on, let me ask you a question. You do believe in a flat earth. Okay.

Yeah. It doesn't make any flat earth doesn't work. You need to call back Monday and I will show you why it doesn't work and why it's, it's just, I'll go back. All right.

You called the cabrada time, but, uh, here's something to think about. Why is it that you cannot see the sun at night? If it's the sun is embedded in the dome or suspended just underneath it and a flat earth model.

Well, I can answer that. We don't have the time, but my foundation is what say it's the scripture. Well, the scripture says the earth is square with four corners.

Do you believe that? Where does it say where? Show me that verse. It says four corners. Okay. Rectangular or square has four corners. Do you affirm four corners?

Okay. So it also says, it also says the circle of the earth. Do you form the circle of the earth? Do you affirm that? Yes. The earth is a circle. It is.

How can it also have corners? So I just think you're, you're, uh, call back Monday when we have, all right. All right. Oh, okay. Hey folks, I hope you have a great weekend.

Sorry, Roger from North Carolina and Thomas from Kentucky. Oh, comment on local lecture. Call back Monday. You guys can talk. All right. God bless. May the Lord bless you. Have a great weekend, everybody. Talk to you later. Bye.