Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live!

Francis, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It is me, Matt Slick. If you're a new listener, Matt Slick is my real name. We call it Matt Slick Live.

It kind of works. And hopefully you'll enjoy the show. What we are about is Christian apologetics, the defense of the Christian faith, promoting Jesus Christ from a biblical perspective. And so, if you're Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Science, Unity, Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and you hold to their official doctrines, you're on your way to hell.

Yeah, that's right. And if you want to call me up about that, we can talk. And you can say, what were you saying? I'll tell you why. Because when you really believe the Bible, when you really trust the Word of God, then you'd be surprised what other systems of thought become, let's just say, become clear and that you understand where they fail and what the problems are with them. So anyway, there you go.

And people ask about Bible questions, Bible stuff, and things like that. So if you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. That's 877-207-2276. We've only said that number about 18 million times. And we have no open, I mean we have no callers waiting right now, so if you want to give me a call, that would be something that would be really great.

One of the things I'm thinking about doing is just kind of adding a little bit of stuff to the radio, since I've been doing radio for so many years, and that is to do a commentary on some of the stuff that's going on in radio. And since there's nobody waiting right now, I want to make a comment on something that really is scary. And it's in Finland.

Let's see if I can find it. Because in Finland, they are putting the Bible on trial. They're actually using the Bible, and there's a lawsuit going on in Finland about whether or not the Bible is hate speech. And if it's hate speech, well then who knows what's going to happen. They probably won't be allowed to be taught.

They won't be allowed to be read. But you know, it's okay for the liberals, because the liberals think that way. The liberals are, well, they're mental. Liberalism, and this idea of socialism, and equity, and all this idiocy.

I just consider them to be mental. But you know, there's something I'm going to read in the Bible, and it's about this whole thing. It says 2 Thessalonians 2, and the more I talk about stuff, the more I'm kind of considering and looking to 2 Thessalonians 2, which talks about the rise of the Antichrist.

And how he must come, and the apostasy comes first. So, in this article that I read yesterday in Finland, where there's this lawsuit going on, and one of the prosecutors was literally reading the Bible in a trial room, a courtroom, about homosexuality, and calling it hate speech. And then others were giving their views. Really interesting.

This is what they were doing. Now, the reason I bring it up, well, what's Finland got to do with us? Well, you've got to understand that things move in Europe, they move over to here.

They go in Europe, they move over to here, because if one country does it, another country's going to do it. And so, if they're going to start doing that here, the homosexual community, LGBTQ, whatever you want to call them, trans, all this stuff, they don't want the Bible. They do not want the truth of God's word. They want to suppress it. They hate the light. They do not want the truth of what Christ is, what the Scriptures actually said.

They don't want that taught. They want their own sin, they want their own rebellion against God, and they want to justify it. They want anybody who exists to agree with them, and if you don't agree, you better keep quiet, and if you openly disagree, they're going to punish you. This is their intolerance, and this is exactly what the Bible talks about.

I'm going to go to 2 Thessalonians 2, and then I'm going to go to Romans 1. And it says, Let no one we deceive you for it, that's the arrival of the Antichrist, will not come unless the apostasy comes first. What's the apostasy? The Christian church as a whole will fall away from the faith.

In Finland, the Finnish official church is dissing itself from certain parts of the Scriptures. They don't like what the Scriptures says, so eh, you know, and this is a form of apostasy. You know, the Catholic church is already apostate. Eastern Orthodoxy is always already apostate. Mormonism is not even Christian.

Jehovah's Witness is not even Christian. And within Protestantism, there's a rise of false doctrines in many areas in many ways, and so there's a general apostasy. And another area of apostasy a lot of people are not aware of can be found in Luke 9.23. Jesus says, If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. So this is what Jesus said. So that's a truth statement that what we are obligated to do as Christians. Now how many Christians are doing that? See, if you don't do that, you're moving into apostasy. If you're not denying yourself, taking up your cross daily and falling after Christ, this is what Jesus says. See, if anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow after me.

This is what he said. And so we're to do that. And so are we doing it? Are Christians doing it?

Because he says in Luke 14.27, Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. Now it's easy for me to point fingers at other groups. And you know, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christians of Science, Unity Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy. These apostate false groups, and they are, okay? But what about the Protestants? Because I'm a Protestant, right? What about the Protestants? Well, they're failing too.

Now it's not me just looking at everybody pointing fingers. The standard is the Word of God. The Bible says there's going to be an apostasy. And that means the Christian church as a whole has to fall away. Now I've used that verse on Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

I'll read the verse on a second Thessalonians, you know, and say, Well, doesn't it say that there must be an apostasy? Yes. Is your religion the true religion? Yes. So your church is a true church?

Yes. Well, then doesn't it mean that your church has to go to apostasy for the end of Christ to come here? And there's this bit of silence. Because if they claim to be the truth, and yet the Bible prophesies that their, according to their understanding, truth will go into apostasy, then what does that say about their church? And this has really stumped a lot of them. And I'll say, So how do you know your church isn't in apostasy right now? And, you know, the only way to go is through the scriptures.

So this is an interesting discussion. So it's going to happen as a whole. Now, God has his elect, and the elect will follow him, not some church organization and structure, and submit their salvation and their will and their thought and everything to a church organization, because that's how cults work. Cults ultimately, in all ways, false religions, always replace Christ with themselves, with their church authority.

Now, a lot of them are saying, No, we don't do that. Oh, yes, you do. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy.

Absolutely you do. Because you all say, well, Islam doesn't hold the Bible as being, you know, like the other groups do, but they all say that their church and their organization has to interpret the Bible because their church organization, etc., prophet, prophetess, whatever it is, has the authority to interpret the word of God. And you have to submit to that church authority.

And when people willingly do that, what they're doing is moving into apostasy. Because how do you know that church is correct? Well, it says it is. So that's how we know.

Really? So when the Roman Catholic Church, in paragraph 2068 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, says that you obtain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments, and yet the Bible says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law, those commandments. Who's correct? Oh, you know, you have to have the authority of the church to interpret. The authority of the Roman Catholic Church, the authority of the East Orthodox Church, the authority of the Mormon Church, the authority of the Jehovah's Witness organization. You have to have that authority to tell you what it means. People say, OK, sign me up. Put me under their authority. Put me under what they say. Let me not think. Let me but follow the burning in the bosom.

Let me but follow the words of my leaders. It's not Jesus I'm looking to, but what they say about Jesus, what they say about salvation. This is apostasy. Because it's not that people are looking at the word of God and trusting it for themselves, because they can certainly do that. In 1 Thessalonians 1711, Paul says the Bereans were more noble, not minded, because they checked even what he said against the Scriptures.

They did that. He said, way to go. And in Romans 14, 5, it says that each person must be fully convinced in his own mind about varying debatable issues and things like that. That means we have the right to discuss and disagree. And 1 Corinthians 4, 6 says we're not to exceed what is written. That's written in the word of God.

We're not to exceed that. And yet so many groups do. Apostasy is coming. Now, since the church, the Christian church, as a whole, whatever group you want to say will come into apostasy. Now the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses say the apostasy occurred 2,000 years ago. But they don't read the context. It says the arrival of the Antichrist will come with the apostasy, and then he exalts himself, etc.

That hasn't happened. So they take things out of context. And I wish I could get a device that the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Muslims, when they quote scripture, the Bible, the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, it was a hearing device. And it has a microphone in it. And what you do is you read scripture, you interpret scripture, and whenever you do that, what you hear is a ripping sound. And it signals the ripping it out of context, not understanding it.

That'd be nice to have some device that did that, but anyway. So the thing is, there's going to be an apostasy. And if it happens in the church, how much more will it happen for those who are unbelievers? Because you've got to understand apostasy means that truth is no longer the foundation.

Apostasy means something else, that lies are in place of the truth. That certainly happens in some churches and denominations and groups and church leaders and all that kind of stuff. But it also happens within the secular realm. And then what we're seeing in the secular realm is the rise of secular blasphemy laws. That's why in Finland, the secular blasphemy laws, thou shalt not read the scriptures that speak of homosexuality. Thou shalt not condemn LGBTQ. Thou shalt affirm the secular moral system. Thou shalt submit to the authority over you and believe whatever it says.

This is, these are the blasphemy laws that are secular. And if you were to violate them, they have the right to burn you at the stake. They'll come after you. They'll silence you in your social media areas.

They will silence you at work. They will punish you because you are violating the secular blasphemy laws. While they, in their incredible hypocrisy, mock the faithful, mock the Christians. Look what you did hundreds of years ago, the Catholic Church. They say, think as Christian, look what you did with the burning of the witches, with the inquisition and all that kind of stuff. Well, they're guilty of the same thing.

They're guilty of it. Though the Catholic Church in the inquisition literally killed people. And it did physically tortured them.

Oh, horrible tortures. The left is doing that, but not with a physical sense, except they are jailing people. And they're trying to get their bank accounts cancelled, their social media cancelled, their free speech cancelled. But why?

Because the conservatives are violating the secular blasphemy laws. You see, we're at war, ladies and gentlemen. The Christians are at war, the true Christians are at war with darkness.

The darkness is increasing and it takes the light and it's going to come after the believer. Do you want to give me a call for open lines? 877-207-2276. We'll be right back.

We have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Gabriel from Maryland. Gabriel, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Dr. Slicker. Mr. Slick, thank you for taking my question.

I'm calling about Nehemiah 8-8. It was recently in my daily studies and it seemed related to what you were just talking about. So, my understanding with the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church is that their claim is that the scriptures have always been taught to people and never simply placed...

I'm just going to move my screen because right now I'm looking at you talk. They've always been taught to people and not simply read that there was always a reading with interpretation and that it was an interpretation that was passed down from the teacher. So, in the creation of the canon, which was kind of an organic thing, it was the general consensus among whoever the deacons and the priests were, what was created into the canon, and the understanding of the teachings was more traditional, even though it was more tradition.

So, there was another podcast yesterday with Dr. Michael Brown about, I want to say, Brady's fanatic, something like that. And he was talking about how he had recently lost faith from seminary and how the Bible seemed to be able to say pretty much anything and that he tried reading the more conservative guys and then he read the liberal guys and the liberal guys were more honest about what the issues were with the text. And it just kind of got me thinking about how it can be complicated and I guess... Could you just give me some thoughts on that? And also, how do you know if you're going apostate? Like, how do you know if you're going off the rails?

Because there is some room for deviation, I think. Okay, so you're asked a lot, so let me go through. I took some notes and I'll work backwards. How do you know you're going apostate? By violating the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. Those are revealed in Scripture.

I happen to have written an article on it. You go to the CARM website and you can go to the doctrine table and it goes through and lists where they're found in Scripture. So, for example, Jesus says in John 8.24, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. Well, that's obviously an essential doctrine because Jesus said, if you don't believe this, you're dead. You can die in your sins. So it's an essential because he said so. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 and 14, unless Christ be raised, our faith is in vain.

So there's another essential, the resurrection of Christ. So these kind of things, it's not my opinion. It's what the text says. I'm just saying, oh, here's another one. Here's another one.

This is what it says. Let's list them out. And so apostasy deals with that and the essentials. We're allowed to have differences of opinion on the non-essentials.

That's for sure. But there's also an apostasy that comes into the issue of morality. So if you say one thing and do another, in other words, you believe in Christ as God in flesh died in the cross, grows from the dead, you're out committing adultery, then the inconsistency between orthodoxy and orthopraxy, before right teaching and belief and right action, orthodoxy and orthopraxy, if they're not unified, then there's a demonstration. According to 1 John 2, 4, if you say you know me or know him and the truth is you do not keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. So there is a degree where we can say if someone's behavior reflects their understanding and their commitment to Christ, and so if they don't live according to the moral word of God, then we can say you're not a Christian because the Bible says so. So there's vague areas in there, and that can be worked out in particular.

So that's one of the things. How do you know you're going apostate? Well, you know the Christian doctrine and Christian practice. And so if you go to the doctrine table on Carm, I've done the work and gone through over years and added to that and modified it as it's written and people's comments. What about this verse?

What about that? And so it's not just me. So many people over the years, mostly it's me, but I've taken what they've said, okay, let's look at that. And so you can go there and you can check it out and check it out according to the Scriptures. Now, there are certainly levels of interpretive difficulty in Scripture.

I've actually considered the idea of writing an article exemplifying different levels of interpretive difficulty. So, for example, something very easy would be to go to John 11.35 where it says Jesus wept. Well, what's the context? Lazarus had died. Jesus was there. Jesus loved Lazarus. Well, Jesus wept.

So what does it mean? It means he was crying. He shed tears. He wept.

Simple. But what do you do about 1 John 2.2? He's a propitiation not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world. The word world there has to be understood in light of covenant theology according to God's revelation. And what does the word propitiation mean? Because it doesn't mean an expiation. It means a sacrifice that actually turns away wrath. Now we have an issue of looking and saying, wait a minute, does the word world mean every individual? Does it mean all the nation groups?

Because in Matthew 15.24, Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So now we get into more interpretive difficulties. And in between those extremes, there are other things as well.

John 3.16, God loved the world and gave his only begotten son. Well, there's a little bit of debate about what the world might mean there, but clearly the rest of it is pretty easy. You believe you're going to be saved. And so there are degrees of difficulty.

The initial level is just simple reading. And then the later level of difficulty requires thought, more biblical knowledge, and theological understanding in order to get through to these things. So lately, coincidentally, I've been spending more and more time on the web, apart from the radio, teaching on these levels, teaching more advanced theology, and saying, now you've got to look at this verse, look how this is in, look at the pattern here, this is what God does, this is how we see his pattern over here, so therefore we can look at the pattern and look at this and see, okay, that's what that means here, or it could mean this or it could mean that. We have two options.

Let's look at the first one, let's look at the second one, let's relate it to this. And this is the kind of thing I have to do with people and go through it slowly. And when we go through it slowly, they get it. They go, oh, I see. What happens in the higher level, you have to have more understanding of the theological acumen and more understanding of the overall scope of Scripture. Unfortunately, too many Christians, what they do is they think they have a good understanding of things, but they don't. When I do seminars and I say, please show me your hands, how many of you in here believe that the Trinity is true and their hands all go up? Great.

How many can define what the Trinity is? And if you raise your hand, I'm going to call on you. And nobody raises their hand.

Well, why is that? Because they're not thinking through what the issues really are, and their level of knowledge is not that high. Not that everybody has to have all this great knowledge things, but I mean, it should be more in the Christian church as a whole. There's difficulties, and so it's endemic of the idea that Christians think they know enough when they really don't.

And it's easy to expose that and say, come on, let's step up and let's learn more, and then I'll teach you about that. And you know, there's doctrine and doctrine and things like that. And when we get back, I'll answer the other two questions about the Bible. Can they just say anything?

Interpreting to be passed down, okay? So I know I'm going through a lot there, but hold on, Gabriel. We'll be right back after these atonement.

After these words. Be right back, folks. Welcome back, everybody. Gabriel, are you still there?

Yep, I'm still here. Thank you. All right. Now, I know I gave you a lot there, because there is a lot there.

There's a lot of questions and some good stuff there. So let me address the other stuff. I won't go as long. When people say the Bible can say anything, well, then I say to them, when they say, well, the Bible can say anything, and I'll say, oh, okay. I'll say something like, oh, so you agree with me that the Bible's clear? And I'll say, what? No, I said you can say anything. It's not clear.

No, I'm not that good looking, but thank you very much. So whatever they'll say at this point, I interpret it to anything I want, because if the Bible can say anything, then their words don't mean anything. Then the words of Scripture don't mean anything, and neither do the words that they're using about Scripture mean anything. And so I'm going to exemplify that, hey, if you can say that the Bible can mean anything, then I can say your words mean anything.

And it's not how it works. People understood what it means. If I say to you, I'm going to take my car and drive to the store and get some groceries, we understand what it means, because we understand the culture to drive. Now, 500 years ago, what do you mean?

Groceries drive to a store. What? They wouldn't get it. But we do now in the culture that we are here.

Do you think that? And I ask them, do you think that God is capable of communicating his word to people? When you come along later, hundreds of years later, and say, it can mean anything, well, then I can make whatever you say anything. It just doesn't work.

No, it's not a good approach that they use. And then we tackle particulars about that. When they say interpretation is passed down, I say to them, how do you know? Where's the interpretation? Well, it's in the church. Where in the church? Does one guy say to another guy, hey, did you hear the one about Mary when she's walking along the road, blah, blah, blah?

So where is it? How do you know what interpretation of Scripture is correct? How do you know who said what? How do you know? Because they'll say, because this is what the false groups want to do.

Our church interprets a Scripture, and the true interpretation of Scripture has been handed down by the apostles to their successors, and they're in our church, so we have the truth. It's arrogant. Yeah, that's what the Orthodox say. Foolishness. Yeah.

And I like to ask them, how do you know what their interpreting is correct? Simple. How do you know?

Well, I don't know. But don't you kind of see that with Paul going back to Jerusalem? I mean, isn't there something to the apostolic lineage?

Well, let's just say that there was an apostolic lineage. Oh, okay. So what does it mean? You really think about this.

The ones who advocate this don't know how to defend their position. If you go to Matthew 10, or I think it's, let's see, Luke 5, 24. Let's see if I got this memorized right.

Yeah. So that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. He said to the paralytic, I say to you, get up, pick up your stretcher, and go home.

And, of course, he did. So the authority was in Christ. Now, they want to say that the authority of Christ is passed down to their apostles and, therefore, to their church and their priests and their members of their church.

That's what they want to say. And then, therefore, they have the right to interpret scripture. So it comes down to their authority.

They want to say that they have the authority. So in Matthew 10, Jesus summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to cast them out to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Okay, so there you go.

Then he says, let's see, where is it? Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons, really you've received, really give. Don't acquire gold or silver or copper for your money balance or a bag for your journey or even two coats or sandals, et cetera. So I say this is the authority that Christ gave to the 12 disciples.

It doesn't say they're successors, but you want to say it's for successors. So if that authority is with you, as you say, your church, well then do you cast out demons? Do you heal every kind of disease, every kind of sickness?

Do you? Are you going around preaching? Are you raising the dead, cleansing the lepers, casting out demons? Are you doing what that authority entails by the words of Christ himself?

Don't acquire gold or silver. And yet the Roman Catholic Church, for example, has millions and millions and millions, billions of dollars in gold and silver and property. Do they have the authority of Christ? No, they don't because they have the authority of man and they want to twist the word of God to submit it to their interpretation and their authority. So, for example, I'll go to Romans 4-5 and it says, to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credit as righteousness. See, is faith credit as righteousness? Yes, man, but not the way you think it is.

And then they go on and on. You go, Romans 3-28, a man is not justified by the works of the law. No, that law is only the ceremonial law. It doesn't say that in the scripture, but they twist, twist it to make it say what they want in order to justify their false church.

That's what happens. So, when they say interpretation is passed down, well, how do you know? Where is it? Is it written down? Is it equal to scripture? How do you know which interpretation is correct? How do you know?

They don't have answers for this. Well, what about like Christendom and the homilies that they have? The Christian what and the homilies they have? Saint Chrysostom. Oh, Chrysostom.

He's great. I like the church. I like Chrysostom. Chrysostom is brilliant in his preaching ability, but he's not apostolic authority that we have to submit to. When I talk to Eastern Orthodox people, which I've been doing quite a bit lately, in order to bolster their beliefs, they go, well, Saint so-and-so said, and Saint so-and-so said, I'm like, no, no, no.

I'm not interested in your so-called saints. Give me God's word. And they'll say, no, that is God's word. What they said is that their tradition is equal to scripture.

And I say, wrong. Scripture is the Greek word grafe, the writing. That's what is inspired, not what they say. See, what they have to do, these false churches and these members of the false churches, they have to submit the word of God to their church. And as I was talking to my wife about this, they do the same thing that the leftists do in government, the same thing, it's the same mental, emotional thing. They submit their will, their thinking, their safety to the authority over them, the governing power over them. In the religious sense, it's their authoritative church. In the secular sense, it's the governmental socialistic stupidity that's being promoted so much around everywhere, and the government will tell you what is true. The government will give you your rights. The government tells you what is right and what is wrong, and you have to submit to the government. The same thing, the church will tell you what is right.

The church will tell you what is wrong. You have to submit what the church says. It's the exact same thing. It's the same formula, different variables. And so this mental problem occurs all over the place, and those groups that teach the idea of mental, spiritual submission to an overarching theological, ecclesiastical structure are actually advocating the same secular principle used in communism and socialism to gain control of nations by the submission of the people.

It's the same thing. No, what does Christ say? Come to me, Matthew 11, 27.

Come to me. And we're to go to Christ, and we put our faith and our trust in Him. Well, you don't have the right to interpret. There they go again, submitting everything to the authority of their system and their overarching authority.

This is it. And as Laura just said in the text, it's spiritual abuse, and it is. At the hands of, in the religious sense, ecclesiastical, it's blasphemy. We have blasphemy laws here. And in the secular, they have blasphemy laws too. The parallels between the secular and the sacred are merging.

And it's because the apostasy of the Christian church is occurring, which becomes more in harmony with the laws and the ways of the secular church, the secular church with its hierarchical authoritative structure. And when they start merging, that's when you know we're in a lot of trouble. And we are. Okay? Yeah, that's good. Can I throw in one more thing, or do you have another line to go to?

We've got two callers waiting, but really fast. Let's see what you've got, because we've got a break coming up in a minute anyway. We'll go ahead. Okay.

And I won't do that one, but I'll do something else. There's a computer program called Eloquent. It used to be called Mac Sword, that I want to propose to people to use. It's good.

It's got a quick user interface. Well, I haven't vetted this thing, so I don't know what you're talking about, if it's good or bad. Oh, okay. So I don't know.

Send me some information about it on info at karm.org, and where it is, whatever, and I'll check it out, okay? And then I'll send you a link to a place that does printing, too. Okay. Oh, now we're talking, buddy.

I've got to get my T-shirts out. Okay. Have a good day. All right, man, God bless. Oh, perfect timing, perfect timing.

There's the break. Hey, folks, if you want to give me a call, I'll be right back. The number? 877-207-2276. We'll get back to Roger, who says, when he asks, what does he have told me?

That's going to be a good discussion. We'll be right back, folks. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back, everyone. Hope you're enjoying the show.

It's the last segment of the art. Man, that's gone by fast. Okay, let's get to Roger from North Carolina. Roger, welcome.

Thanks for waiting. You're on the air. Hey, how are we doing, Matt? It's going, man.

What do you got, buddy? My question is about the atonement. Okay. When Jesus went to the cross, what is the atonement and what does it accomplish? Well, the atonement is that act that brings two or more parties who are separated for whatever reason into a proper relationship. That's a loose thing, what atonement is. And the atonement can be carried out in different ways. If my wife and I have had an argument, we can make atonement, so to speak, by confessing, hey, I blew it here. I shouldn't have said that. You're making noise, bud.

You're making noise in the background. Okay? And so we make amends usually through an act. Usually, you know, it could be a confession.

Here, stuff like that. But with God, the act of atonement is through the work of Christ. And there's theological reasons why that has to be the case. But that's basically what it is, okay? Okay, when Christ went to the cross, that was the atonement. Yes. For somebody, right? For the elect, yes. Okay, so it's not a universal atonement. It's for certain people. And when Christ went to the cross, it accomplished something, right?

Yes. Now, some will say that it means that everybody's sin was taken care of and removed. Well, that can't be the case because then you can't go to hell. If all their sin is gone, then nobody can go to hell because they're judged for their sin. You know, people, they've got to accept it.

No, that's irrelevant. If it's paid for, it's done. The debt and the sin transgression is removed by a payment, a atonement. If it's removed, you can't go to hell. So it's just simple, simple logic, simple thinking.

See, I've heard somebody say that Jesus paid the sin debt to God, the Father, but yet Jesus holds back whoever he wishes. Well, it's nice thought. Have you heard that before? Yeah, it's not very well put together, that kind of a thought, but he withholds it. There's a sense in which it's true. There's a sense in which the payment's to the Father, but then we get into what is, you know, is it the ransom theory, which a lot of the cults use, or is it the penal substitutionary theory, which is what most Christians properly hold to because the Bible, and I can defend, it's called PSA, penal substitutionary atonement, and for those who don't know, P-E-N-A-L, A-L, has to do with legal law, you know, penal colony, you know, things like that.

Every now and then I just make that point, but that's what it is. Yeah, like, the Colossians 2.14, where he canceled the sin debt, so Jesus canceled it for somebody, that would be the last. Yeah, he canceled it at the cross, not when you believe, and it's not canceled when you get baptized, not canceled when you do good things. Jesus canceled the certificate of debt, nailing it to the cross.

That's when it was done. So if it's canceled, can you be held responsible for a sin debt that's canceled? No.

This is so stinking simple, you know, that's easy. Yeah, and I would say the propitiation atonement, propitiation is where God is a peace, so it's been atoned for. You would say that was the same thing? Yes, it was propitiatory, and that's correct, and propitiation means the sacrifice that removes wrath. It's actually accomplished in the propitiatory work. It does not make the potential there. It actually removes it. That's a difference.

Most people want the potential of something to be done based upon your action, your will choice, your this, and that's man-centeredness. No, the propitiatory atonement was efficacious, was legal, and was permanent, and it accomplished exactly what God wanted it to, and it was canceled at the cross. It's not canceled when you believe. You're justified when you believe. The canceling of the sin debt is the removal of that sin debt. Justification is being clothed in the righteousness of God, Philippians 3-9. This occurs when God grants that we believe, Philippians 1-29, which says he grants that we believe.

Yeah, that's what I hold to as well. And would you say 1 John 2-2, the propitiation for the whole world, would you say that would be Jews and Gentiles from everywhere, not every single person? Yes, because covenantally, when you understand covenant, Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 15-24. House of Israel deals with the nation of Israel, the house. It's not saying individuals, it's saying the covenant nation. He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 15-24. When Israel broke the covenant and rejected the Messiah, we the Gentiles were grafted in. So therefore, he's the propitiation, the sacrifice that removes the wrath, not only for our sins, but sins of the whole world. In other words, all the nation groups and all the people groups, because a proper Jew understanding the covenant would say, well, of course the Messiah is only for Israel.

He's not coming for Egypt. That's exactly what they understood, and it was true. Except that in the covenant they broke it, and so therefore we're grafted in. That's how it works.

Covenant theology answers so much questions, and the dispensationalists, I'm going to make people mad, but the dispensationalists need to become covenantal. There we go. Yes, see, that's where I line up as well. Okay, so it looks like I'm pretty much on track, right? Well, you're on track with what I say.

Now, what I say is right or wrong is another issue. So there we go. Okay, thank you, Matt. All right, buddy. God bless. All right, let's get on the line to Martin from Virginia. Thanks for waiting so long, buddy. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. Hey, thanks for your ministry and all. The caller, the previous, not the recent caller, but the one prior to that, you spent a little bit of time, and you talked a lot about scriptural reference and the integrity of the scripture, and you did mention how people can interpret it.

Totally wrong. Now, you're very astute, and I'm not going to try to cast errors because I know I've got many logs in my eyes. I don't want a bucket of splinter in your eye. I've got some logs.

I've got some logs. Well, last year, you made a reference. I think in Matthew, I thought you had mentioned that nobody knows when the time will come, you know, when judgment day comes. Nobody but the Father, and I think three times you referenced, well, this is what that means, or here's what that means, instead of here's what I think that means, and you had mentioned that it's the bridal party and the Father of the groom, right, or the Prophet of the groom, or the bride, if I'm remembering you correctly. That's correct, yep.

I know exactly what you're talking about. But you said this is what that means. However, there is no scriptural reference to that. That's more anecdotal, and that's misinterpreting scripture, which is what you were kind of coming down on 15, 20 minutes ago or so.

Yeah. Not exactly, but, you know, you have a question? So my question is, if somebody misinterprets scripture scripturally, what is the sin in that? I mean, is it okay to misinterpret scripture and just kind of make up things of what you think it is, or do you need to follow scripture more texturally? We need to follow scripture as best we can, but there are certain areas of scripture that are culturally embedded.

For example, the Good Samaritan. Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, there's cultural aspects of scripture that you can't deny at the time scripture is written. It's a big influence, but in the sense that nobody knows the time of the Second Coming, the Father.

So what's your question? So my question is, how can you interpret that as that being more of a bridal thing and not the Father knows, but nobody else knows? How can you say that's what this means? Well, for one thing, it is what it means from ancient culture, and I've read it before, and I've actually talked to, I believe at the very least, one Jew who knew all this stuff and said he was very impressed that a Gentile would know the ancient cultural marriage ceremony. So it's been validated in different sources. I've read it.

You can also just go on the web and just look it up. You'll see some stuff about the marriage ceremony, and you can understand then what Jesus was saying, that no one knows. But you see, the idea is there's doctrines that are related to this. In Revelation 19, 12, it says that Jesus has a name written on him which no one knows except himself. Well, then that would mean the Father and the Holy Spirit don't know, but that's not exactly what it means. And so we can't say that this issue of knowing and not knowing is or is not divine, because the Jews would often use exaggeration when they would speak. And so in Jude 4 or Jude 3, it says, in Jude 4, denying our only Lord and Master, Jesus. Well, does that mean that the Father is not our Lord and our Master?

Of course not. And so Jews spoke in that way, and you can see that in the Scriptures, and all you can do is go through it. But there are certain things that are just not revealed in the Scripture, like the wedding feast culture, or the Samaritan, or the prodigal son thing, or why these things are so important, or the woman who let her hair down in public, why that was so important back then.

So there are books that talk about ancient cultural norms, and you can understand them. And one of them that just popped into mind is when the blind man sees it, he goes, I see men walking around as trees. Well, what does that mean in the ancient culture then? What people would do is walk up into the hills. They would get bundles of twigs, bind them up, get underneath them and lift them up, and they would walk them down.

That would be ten feet across. And they would walk them down, balanced on their backs, men walking as trees. And so that, oh, that's what that means.

Now I get it. So there are certain cultural norms that are relevant, and I would recommend you get a book called Poet and Peasant, and Through Peasant Eyes. And it goes through a lot of this cultural stuff. Poet and peasant. Poet and peasant. What is that written? I don't know. Thirty, forty, fifty years ago. Okay. Okay. So then my question then, my second question would be, if I were to believe that what Jesus is saying literally is that nobody knows about the Father, and the Father will later reveal this, and this is the vast majority of people that read that verse, they don't know of any wedding feast, and there's nothing scripturally that points to that at all.

You can't, I mean, it's just anecdotal at best. That's why we have teachers. Is that wrong for them to believe that? Yes, it's wrong for them to believe Jesus actually did not know. Because Jesus has two natures, the divine nature and the human nature. By logical necessity, the divine nature, God, knows all things.

Jesus, the person, Jesus. And Matt, I apologize, I've got to drop. I'm in a no cell phone driving zone, and there is a police stop zone, but please continue. I'll listen. Okay. No problem. And so the, hang up right there where it goes.

Okay, there we go, thanks. And so it's necessary to understand that the attributes of both natures are ascribed to the single person. So the person said, I am thirsty. The person said, Jesus said, I'm thirsty.

I will be with you always, even to the end of the earth. So the I, the one person, was claiming the attributes of both the divine and the human nature, and the divine nature requires omniscience. So he knew all things as part of the attributes of being divine, because he was divine and human. So both of those attributes belong to Christ. And so when we understand that the ancient culture, when the wedding feast, the son would not know, it was idiomatic, would not know the exact time when the father said to the son, go get your bride, even though they already knew what day it was going to be, and they already had the arrangements and everything.

It's just this ancient culture thing, and that's what that's about. And we're out of time. Sorry, Jeff from Raleigh, North Carolina.

Why did God need a sacrifice? Call back tomorrow, because we need to answer that one. And Mark from West Virginia on Malak. Oh, Micah, that's the good stuff.

Micah 5, 2, and 3. Love that. Call back tomorrow. We'll talk about that as well. May the Lord bless you all. Sorry we ran out of time. By his grace, ladies and gentlemen, we'll be back on there tomorrow. So talk to you then. Have a great evening.