Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. Listen to Matt Slick live.

And let's see, it is the 14th of May 2021 for the podcasters. If you are interested in calling, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. And yeah, I've got a little bit of an issue in the Facebook feed.

For some reason, it lost the contact, but that's OK. We've got the video, the KARM video on YouTube going. Maybe I'll take a look at it during the break or something like that. OK, five open lines. I want you to give me a call. And if you have questions about Jesus, the Bible, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, Christology, Pneumatology, Soteriology, Eschatology.

We can talk about all kinds of things. Baptism, in fact, that reminds me, the Bible thought he went really well last night. Went through Christology and Soteriology, the doctrine of Christ, the doctrine of salvation, and interrelated them. And I know that I went through a lot of heavy stuff for some people. One of the guys there, I said, hey, did you get much out of that?

He goes, well, not really. It was so much new concepts. I go, yeah, that's often the case, is people get new concepts.

And I had to go through some things and stuff like that. And I'm going to ask you, I'll probably do it again before the end of the show, ask you for prayers for the African connections that we have. We had a two-hour meeting this morning. Each Friday we have a meeting.

And people from all over who are related with CARM, work with CARM, come in and join. And we just say, how's it going? What's new?

And I keep records and having a running record on who does what and things, just stuff. And one of the guys is in hiding because, not him personally, but because the Muslims are going through killing people, kidnapping people, and things like that in the areas of Nigeria. And so this is happening. And let me just tell you, folks, Islam is a bunk religion. It's a false religion. It teaches a false god. Muhammad is a false prophet, and it's a religion of violence. When you hear on TV about radical Islam and they're the ones who do all the violence, that is not radical Islam. That is Islam. That is what Islam teaches. And a lot of people just don't know that. They think that I'm the one who's just misrepresenting Islam.

Well, I'm not. I know a lot of people who've come out of Islam. I know a lot of people who speak Arabic, who can read the Quran, and it's been verified over and over. The Quran does teach violence. It does teach subjugation of the entire world through violence.

It does. And it's not radical what they're doing. It is what Islam teaches. It's why Islam grew so quickly in the earlier years is because it was spread by the sword.

And it was spread by the sword. So this is just what it is, OK? And so people are being killed over there in Nigeria with one of our guys. I'm not going to mention his name in case word gets back. But if you could pray for him and the people there, and in the midst of it, he wants to speak and preach that gospel message to people while he can with whomever he can. So there you go, all right?

Pray for him, OK? We have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Steve from North Carolina. Steve, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. Hey. So what do you got here?

I had called in yesterday, so I kind of wanted to continue this question. And I actually don't like asking this question because I feel like it's kind of against God. OK. So God created everything.

Yes and no. And he chose. He did not create evil, yeah, and things like that, OK. OK. Well, that, I guess, I don't know. What?

I'll have to just bow to your hand. Well, let me explain, all right? There's, OK, God did not create, but I want to introduce you to the term ontological evil. And for example, Satan is by nature evil.

He is completely, totally evil. Well, God did not create him that way. He created him good, and then Satan fell. So Satan is the one who is evil. So God didn't create him like that. God did not create sin, but sin is the rebellion against God. So that's how that works. So I guess the part that bothers me is that God transcends taunts, right?

He's not bound by taunts. So he knew prior to making the world that most people are going to go to hell, and he's chosen certain people to go to heaven. So basically, in the end, at the end game of everything, when this is all over, and heaven, everyone's in heaven rejoicing, there's going to be, I don't know, I don't know what the numbers are, one person in heaven and 10 people in hell.

So 10 people in hell, you know, weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity. I'm not against God. I am a Christian, but that question just bothers me. I've always had that question in my mind, and I know it's against, it's kind of like an atheistic type question. I don't want to ask that question, but it's in my mind, so I can't hide it from God.

So I'm not, I have to ask it. Right, and what's your question? Well, I guess the question is, is that God, who's supposed to be loved, he's known everything from the beginning, is that really, is it love? Oh, God is also, God is also just, he's also holy, he's also merciful, and we are also made in his image, and people have the ability to exercise their free will in a manner against him. He can bring them to faith by, for example, just showing his glory, and he can bring people to conversion. Jesus opened the mind to understand scripture in Luke 24, 45.

God opened the heart of Lydia to believe the words of Paul in Acts 16, 14. God moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go, Proverbs 21 to 1. So God has that capability, but we don't know what the criteria is that he has by which he has chosen to do whatever he's chosen to do. We do know that Christ says, you know, how often he's wanted to gather the people of Israel, and they would not, and this is because they've chosen not to. So God has the right to influence people the way he desires, the way he wants, and yet he does not, he does not save as many people as you and I might wish that he did.

You know, I have family members, I pray for their salvation daily, have for years, and they're not saved yet. So I don't understand why. And I've asked God, he says, why?

Well, exactly. I don't understand, Lord, you know, I've asked and it's biblical and the whole bit, and I just, you know, I just asked that of God and I talked to him about it. And I could say a lot of things, you know, try and get some answers, but a lot of times it just comes down to, he doesn't tell us, he doesn't tell us because he chooses not to tell us. And because there are criteria that we just don't know about, and we have to just rest in that, knowing that God is the one who's sovereign and that he is the one who will work out his will perfectly. And when we're in his presence, we'll go, oh, I get it. And when we're in his presence, we'll go, oh, I get it.

And now we don't. So we have to, by faith, trust that, well, this is how it is. And what God seems to be doing is in a generic sense is letting people do what they want.

And then he intercedes at the right time to bring certain people into salvation. So an analogy I've heard is there's a hundred men in prison and they're all murderers. They're all extortionists.

They've all killed lots of people, drugs, whatever you would call it, without a doubt, every one of them deserves to be executed. And we have a guy who is super rich and super capable for whatever reason. And he goes in to the prison and he decides to pay the debt, so to speak, of let's just say 10 people in there.

Well, okay. Why doesn't he pick 12? Well, if he picks 12, we'll say, why did he pick 14? If we say that, why didn't he pick 90? Well, if we say that, why didn't he pick just 30?

We could ask the question. Well, that person does it because that person chooses to do what that person chooses to do. And none of those people in prison deserve the kindness that he gives them. And so he's merciful to even save one, but he saves more, and that's because of the criteria of his own heart and mind.

And this is how it works with God. Okay. It makes sense.

Yeah, I dig it so much. It just bothers me. It bothers me, too, you know?

It bothers me, too. But, uh, I don't know about you, but, uh, you know, I wonder, and I think I have a good idea of how God ought to run the universe, but I've noticed that he's never consulted me and, uh, he's never come to me for advice. I don't know if it's happened with you that he has, but probably not.

I'm going to risk that one. And, um, and because of that, I'm going to say, well, okay, so he knows what's going on. I can ask the question, but we don't always have the answers. But we don't always have the answers, and that's okay.

And then we have to move forward, and that's it. Okay. All right. I appreciate it.

I wish I had a better answer for you, man, but I just don't. The outside is what it is. It's the truth is the truth.

That's it, right? That's what it is, and we have to accept it. I have the faith to know that when we get into his presence, uh, that he can, if he wants, make it more clear to us. And if he chooses to do that, you know, it'll be, oh, we get it now. And I just, you know, I put my hope and my faith in that time. And that's it.

Okay. I guess part of my concern is, you know, like, I know I have family members that aren't saved, like my dad, you know, he died when I was a little kid. But, you know, the question is, you know, am I going to be happy in heaven? I guess Jesus will just have to turn it into that somehow, somewhere. Oh, yeah, it'll happen. Absolutely.

You'll be pleased in heaven. Absolutely. Without a doubt. But for now, there are some things we just don't have answers to. That's just how it is. Okay. Just appreciate it. All right. Thank you. Okay. God bless everybody.

All right. Hey folks, if you want to give me a call, the number is 8772072276. We have four open lines. Why don't you give me a call? Let's get to Ramon from the Bronx in New York. Hey, Ramon. Welcome.

You're on the air. Yeah. I got into a discussion about whether homosexuality was a sin. I was on Facebook and somebody who ever brought up something called the 21st century KGB. I had never heard of it. Yeah, KGB. Yeah.

King James version. Okay. I have never heard of it.

Do you know anything about it? Let's see. 20. No, I don't. I don't know.

21st century. KJV. I'm looking it up. Check this out. Okay. And I said, we're talking about homosexuality. Let's see if they have any.

Oh, I don't see any way to check the verses. We got a break coming up. So hold on. Okay. We'll be right back.

All right. Hey folks, please stay tuned. We have three open lines. 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. Let's get to Ramon.

Ramon, are you still there? Yeah. All right. So I'm trying to find the text of the 21st KJV battle. I don't seem to be able to find it. So I could compare some verses. But anyway, what was the person saying? Well, basically the homosexuality is not decent. That's basically it was a whole just of the conversation.

Okay. And the person was saying it's not a sin because of that Bible? Yeah, more or less. Yeah. I mean, basically, you know, they were saying, well, this is my proof. Did they give you a verse? No, no.

So they gave you nothing. All right. I mean, this was some time ago.

I don't remember everything that happened. It was just that hearing about this other version got me wondering. Okay.

Well, no. Homosexuality is a sin. In Leviticus 18, it talks about it. Also in Romans chapter 1, verses 26 to 28, in 1st Corinthians 6, 9, it talks about homosexuality and these issues, and it condemns it as a sin. And yes, it is a sin. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. And that this basic is how God did it. What people are doing is going against the created order of God. And so it's very bad.

Okay. And the guy in the text is saying there's a Queen James version, and I have that Bible, the Queen James. They actually took the King James and altered the text to make it a proof of homosexuality. So it's paganism and it's blasphemy of what they are doing to alter the word of God.

And the judgment of God is upon them for it. Yes, homosexuality is still a sin. Yeah, well, I pretty much knew that. I just hadn't heard about this other version. I mean, I've got just about every version you can mention.

I mean, you know, I've got some teen Bibles in my library here. Yeah, I'm trying to check it out. But it probably is just an update from anachronous terms. That's probably what's going on in there, why they've updated it. But, no, I don't know the text is, so I'd have to check it out and just do comparisons and things like that.

But I'm sure that there is no problem in there. When anybody says something like this, you know, oh, this Bible proves this, or they show me the verse, give me a link, and they usually cave. Okay, they're just saying stuff and they don't know what they're talking about, unfortunately.

Yeah, well, that's basically what I did. I said, hey, you know, chapter and verse detail, you know, show me. But, you know, apparently it was like a hacked conversation because two different people were in on the thing, you know. Yeah, welcome to paganism and ungodliness and unrighteousness. Yeah, I deal with it a great deal and people will lie and they'll think nothing of it. They will absolutely lie, they have no problem with it, they will misrepresent the truth. It's something that happens a lot and you have to learn how to see through their purposeful deception.

I'm not saying this was the case with what you experienced, but it's pretty frequent that it happens on purpose. There's something called the Queen James? I've never heard of that either. Yeah, the Queen James Bible. I have a copy of it downstairs in my garage where it's collecting dust, but I did a lot of research through it. And you can go to Karm and you can look up Queen James Bible. And that's what I did was, you know, I analyzed it and then I did a comparison and went through the Hebrew, went to the Greek and just showed that it's bunk. It's just a load of crud.

Yeah, I thought it was, because I had never heard of anything like that. Yeah, well, okay. Okay, well, God bless. Thank you.

All right, talk to you later. All right, let's get to next longest waiting is Clay from North Carolina. Clay, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Brother Matt, happy Friday to you and nice to be able to talk to you. You haven't been able to call in in a bit and have some decent, godly conversations. I listened to what the caller, two callers ago, had said and was sharing.

I know that from what I've heard, you know, that even you shared about, you know, praying for, you know, family members and they don't know the Lord at this point. I remember years and years and years ago taking a, being in a Baptist church and they had did this switch around one time and they did this thing called Life University. And in this thing that they were doing, they had different classes. So, um, one of the classes that I had taken was a purpose driven life, which I took several times because I was trying to figure out, you know, the first few words that it's not about you, but the second class I took was, um, ABCs of life and ABC stands for acknowledge or admit, believe and confess. So, um, you know, just to hear what was being shared, I believe that the, um, the, those people that are being prayed for, since they're not, um, you know, coming to know the Lord as their personal savior, they have to come to the acknowledgement or admittance of, you know, that they are sending and stuff like that. Well, okay, there's a whole bunch of stuff, you're talking about a lot of different things, you're kind of getting off the, you know, different direction.

Do you have a question though? Yeah, um, I, I know some, about three or four people that, um, even one of them, I heard just recently has gotten into this the last year. Um, I've, uh, a dear friend of mine who I've known for about three years or so, um, I stopped by and I talked to him and caught up with some stuff and he shared with me that a mutual brother in the world that we know has gotten into, um, uh, some of the things that we know about, um, listening to prophets. So the question is, um, I know that you share with like a book, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen and you know, several others, but to hear this, and I'm, I'm, I know that I don't follow prophets. I'd rather hear God's word preached from a pastor. If he could come out with two sentences or two verses and expand on it for four weeks, that way I know.

Give me your question. So what, what, when you have people saying that they are listening to prophets, um, is that going away from their salvation or I mean, are they being misled or what? It depends on the prophet. The Bible talks about prophecy in the Bible, in the New Testament, 1st Corinthians 12, 28, there's prophets, but the prophets are, um, there's a debate about what that is and I could talk about it to some degree and give you options, but generally it's about those who do prophecy.

If it doesn't come to pass, of course you don't listen to them. So anyone who gives a prophecy needs to be very, very, very, very careful about what they do. So, and we should not be looking to prophets.

We should be looking to the word of God and always judge whatever any so-called prophet, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, whatever it might be, is always going to compare it with scripture. That's just how it works. Got to do it that way.

And, uh, some of these prophets were prophesying about, uh, Trump and it didn't come to pass. So, you know, right. Well, I just was wondering because I mean, you know, it's just, to me, it's just like, uh, like I shared, I would rather hear something that means I can get knowledge and wisdom from that means more to me so I can share it along, along the road with others that need to hear it. Good. I appreciate that brother.

We got a break. We got to go. Okay.

So keep listening. All right brother, God bless you, man. Thanks so much. All right. Talk to you later.

Thanks. Hey folks, Two Open Lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. We have two open lines. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. Let's get to Jill from Virginia. Hey Jill, welcome. You're on the air.

Hi Matt. You're muffled. I can't, Jill, I can hardly understand you. You're muffled for me anyway. Oh, darn. Okay.

Okay, I'll try it again. Hello, can you hear me? There you go. That's much better.

Oh, I just put it on speakerphone. Okay, so real quick, my husband and I love your ministry. We prayed for you guys and your life. Thank you. And you know, we're in the school, we just, you know, supporters and all that.

Thank you. So real quick, my husband has been, has this guy at work and he's gone out witnessing with us and my husband just found out that he's part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. So I looked it up on your website and found out a lot of, you know, stuff that they believe. And I guess bottom line is, I mean, like, are these people true believers? I mean, they make work with salvation. No, they're not true believers.

Okay. If they believe official Eastern Orthodox theology, then they're like Roman Catholics are adding works to salvation and they bow down before idols and things like that, pray to the saints and stuff. And the saints can intervene for them. It's not to say that every person in Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy is not a Christian, but that's why I say they believe in official Roman Catholicology. So, you know, if you've looked in there, you know, it's difficult to find exact quotes from Eastern Orthodox sources that are across the board valid because there are derivations and deviations within Eastern Orthodoxy where some books are recognized by some subgroups and not others.

So it's difficult. But the Eastern Orthodox does require baptism for salvation and does add works to salvation and that you can lose your salvation because it's based on what you do. So therefore, you know, it's an apostate organization.

Okay, it is. So what do you think of Hank Hanegraaff? Because we used to follow his ministry and how can you even think? No, I would love to debate Hank publicly on this issue. Hank has gone into, I would consider apostasy. I have met him briefly before, not a big deal.

And this is why I'm on the radio here in this network is because when he went rogue, he lost something like 70% or 75% of his citations within a week or two. And so they said, hey, Matt, you want to come on? I said, sure.

So here we are. But yeah, Eastern Orthodoxy is not good. Hank Hanegraaff going into it is just an example of how people who take their eyes off of the severity, sufficiency, the truth, the depth of God's word can move into apostasy. Okay, so that's definitely apostasy. I mean, I read it and it didn't sound good, all the things I read. What I was concerned about was that variation in what the different churches were told to. Yeah, it's tough.

A friend of mine's son is in it. And we had a meeting not too far from here a few years ago. And it didn't go well because the priest wanted me to call him father. And I said, I can't do that because biblically, I believe that's a sin to do that. So, you know, what can I call you? You know, what other title?

You can call me father. So it was really interesting because he wanted the title. And when I told him it was against what I believe biblically, he disregarded it. He still wanted me to go against what I believe scripture teaches in order to call him by this exalted title. I got P.O.ed at him. I got out, I got upset and I took a step toward him. I said, look, I'm not calling you that. And I shouldn't have, but I got mad.

But he was just, in my opinion, he was just being arrogant. But so that's part of it. And I remember talking to a woman years ago who's in Eastern Orthodoxy. And I, you know, it was very polite. And I asked her a question and she says, oh, yeah, you can lose your salvation. Oh, yeah, you got to do these good things to prove that, you know, you're worthy and your faith is strong and you have to be baptized as part of salvation.

This is a long process. And I said, hey, you're not even a Christian. I says, you know, polite. I said, look, you're a false convert. You know, you're just, you're lost. And she's, you know, made a good conversation.

Moving forward with this guy, I guess my husband, he's this guy at work and we see him out on the street witnessing as he shares the gospel. Well, maybe. I think he was a complete shock to us, you know, I guess my husband needs to ask him those questions, right? Yeah.

Ask him the questions to ask would be something very, very pointed like, like this. Are we justified? Use the word justified. Justified before God. That means declared legally righteous in God's eyes by faith alone in Christ alone. Okay, we justified before God by faith alone in Christ alone by God's grace through faith in Christ, all alone, no works necessary, but works are the result of our, our salvation.

They don't contribute to our salvation and anybody who believes they do is a false convert. Okay. Right. And there's a lot of questions. And there's a lot of questions, is baptism necessary in order to have your sins forgiven? And I'll ask it like that. I don't say, do you have to be baptized? I say, is it necessary in order to have your sins forgiven?

That's very precise. And if he says yes, well, then he's a false convert. Okay. All right. Okay. You know, tell your husband to have him call me on the radio. Show this little talk before I wanted him to call.

I think he's a little shy or that's okay. All right. Okay. All right.

God bless. Okay. By the way, if anybody out there is an Eastern Orthodox, he wants to debate me on these issues, please, uh, you can contact me.

I have debated Eastern Orthodox people and prompted on various chat rooms and, uh, I just use the same arguments against them that I use with the Roman Catholics, because they use the same arguments as their own Catholics. If you want to call up here and you want to, you know, set me straight, that's fine. Please do.

You know, I'd love that. That's fine. Let's get to Ashley from North Carolina. Ashley, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, hey, how's it going? It's going. Thank you for taking my call. All right. So what are you going to do? Um, um, what'd you say? Okay, go ahead.

What do you got? Well, um, I just have a question. I mean, you listening to all the calls, it looks like I've got some type of explanation, but when it comes to the gospel of grace, um, I hear a lot of people include on this radio station where I hear, you know, one minute people say gospel of grace and Jesus died for our sins, but then right after that, they go talking about sin again. If we're under the gospel of grace, why do so many Christians still do so much talking about sin? We're not under law, right? Because we still sin under the law means the obligation to keep the law in order to be saved.

We know that's not the case. We're justified before God by grace and Christ. That's Romans 3 28, Romans four, five. But the issue is that we still struggle against our sin.

As Paul, the apostle did Romans 7 18 through 25. He talks about that. So it's just a reality that we have. And, uh, there needs to be a balance. So we need to trust in the grace of God more than we worry about our sin.

But any sin we commit, we must be aware of it and repent of it. Okay. Okay. Well, as far as, you know, wait. Okay.

I understand that. But my only question with that is if Romans eight one says because of one man's disobedience, the whole world sin. And then because of one man's obedience, the whole world may be saved.

That means nobody is everybody's born in sin and nobody's ever going to be be, you know, sin is born in us. I mean, it's in us. So it's like, how can you possibly worry about? Oh, action is still active in me.

That's why he died on the phone. Okay. Don't think you understand the issue. It's not Romans eight one. Incidentally, you might be talking about Romans 5 18 or 19. But, um, the issue is that, uh, we are still sinners even though we're saved. So let me ask you a question.

Sacrificial lamb. Doesn't that blot out often? Yes. He doesn't see it. He just sees the right. Right.

Yeah. Colossians two 14 says he canceled a certificate of debt at the cross. The sin does cancel at the cross. It's called the now and the not yet.

We are, we're not yet in a full glorified state, but now we are said to be in it. Per Romans eight 30 because of the work of Christ. All of our sins are canceled at the cross. Not when you believe and not when you get baptized, but at the cross. And we're justified when we believe, but yet we still struggle against our sin.

And that's Romans seven 18 through 25. We've got a break, so hold on. Okay. Hey folks, three open lines. If you want to give me a call eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. We'll be right back. It's Matt slick.

Live taking a call at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Here's Matt slick. All right. Welcome back to the show.

Let's get on the air with Ashley still. Are you there? Okay. Yes. So did I answer your question? I mean, you asked that my question is, I mean, not really. I mean, but, um, because it's not really for me, it's not about a debating thing. I'm still kind of in trying to understand myself because for years I feel like my whole life I've been under spiritual bondage.

You know what I'm saying? I've been working for my salvation. I've been stressing out about things, things I have absolutely no control over. And I've been stressing about these things just upset because I can't be perfect. I almost had this idea that I was born into perfection. And every time I mess up, it's because I brought sin into my life.

But you know, the more and more I study, you know, the apostle Paul and Romans, the film on, or however you pronounce that last one, um, it's just like the apostle Paul is strictly speaking on the gospel of grace and how Jesus died on the cross. But I'm just like, I kind of get what you're saying, but I want to understand where, where do I stand at this point? You know what I'm saying? Like it's easy. It's easy. I didn't.

It's easy. You still sin, but you're not separated from God. You're justified in Christ. All of your sins, past, present, future were canceled on the cross by Jesus 2000 years ago. And you just move forward. When you mess up, you sin, you go, Lord, I'm sorry. And you try and repent of it. And then, and that's it.

You move forward. Amen to that. All right.

That's what I'm talking about. All right. Thank you so much. You're welcome. All right. All right. Let's get to Sterling from Charlotte, Charleston, Charlotte, Charleston, South Carolina. Welcome. You're on the air.

Hi. My friend recently told me that God can don't slavery and access 21. And I mean, I didn't believe it until I read it. And he said that God allows you to beat your slave with a rod as long as they don't die in a day or two in verses 20 and 21. And I guess my question is, is it moral to own someone's property and beat them with a rod? I mean, I would have said, of course not, but if God's law explicitly allows for it, doesn't that make it moral by definition?

Yeah. There's a lot of issues here that you're talking about. And when someone says, you know, God permits slavery, you have to ask what kind of slavery. And chattel slavery was the actual ownership of a person, which was practiced in America.

And that is not biblical. In fact, what happened was in order to obtain those slaves, some other people in Africa would catch them also and give them to the slave traders. But the slave traders would also go out and get them as well. It's kidnapping. In the Bible, that was punishable by death. That if you were to capture somebody and turn them into a slave, you could be punished by being killed. As far as the rod thing goes, it's not saying it's okay. It doesn't say it's okay to beat a slave.

You can beat him as much as you want, as long as he doesn't die. That's not what the text is saying. What it's saying is if you beat him and he lives for two days or more, whatever it is, then the punishment you're going to receive is different than if he were to die.

It's not saying it's okay to beat. And the reason is because the rod was an instrument of correction, not of death. The sword was a means of death.

The rod, biblically, is to correct. So if there was a person, and we'll talk about different kinds of slavery in the Bible, was a slave and was disobedient to something really wrong and was beaten and to the point where they died, then the owner could be put to death. But because the intention there is not intentional murder.

It was accidental, and so there was a lesser punishment, as we get manslaughter versus murder when people die. Now, in the Bible, there's different kinds of slavery, and none of it is chattel slavery, like it was in America. None of it is like that. You could enter into slavery by choice. You could be captured, and that was a different issue, and made a slave. But sometimes slaves could be inherited as well. So if a slave had put himself into slavery to pay off a debt, and the father of that family died, then the children would inherit the work, and that's what the slavery was about, was paying the debts and paying off things. So sometimes people would voluntarily go into slavery, and the word slavery there for us has a very negative connotation. But we are called slaves of Christ.

We're called doulois in the Bible. And so, in the Bible, slaves were to be freed if they were injured. Slaves could not be returned if they escaped, because property was declared to be returned, and if a slave escaped that punishment, he wasn't to be returned. So he's not chattel slavery. He's not owned.

He's not property. The slave was supposed to rest on the Sabbath, and could be a member of the master's household. So you see, it's quite a bit different. So when people say, oh, the Bible condones slavery, I say, what kind?

What do you mean, what kind? You just said, you know, you condone slavery. Are you aware of different kinds of slavery that exist, that the one word is used to cover all kinds of different systems?

And what kind is it that's taught in the Bible? And they don't know, because they don't study. Okay. So go ahead.

A couple of things there. You know, you said, I heard you say about how it's not chattel slavery, where people are stolen, and that if you stole people, you know, you would be punished. But my friend pointed out to me that Leviticus 25 verse 44 instructs us to buy our slaves from the nations that surround us.

Yep. And in that culture, yeah, they could do that. They could buy them and say to the people in that culture, it says, do you have slaves?

And hey, yeah, well, let's buy them. And then they were treated very well. They weren't to be beaten, except to say that even Jews could be beaten. And so they were treated equally in that beating, in that discipline, is the right thing to say. So if there was a slave that was in another country, and I don't know too much about this aspect, but if they were in another country and they were in debt to somebody else, for whatever reason, then that debt could be transferred to other people.

It could be bought. There was another issue that I heard you say that, you know, if you beat yourself with a rod and they die, you're to be punished, but if the slave lives two days or more, then the punishment is different. And I just wanted to point out that the Bible says that there is to be no punishment if the slave lives two days or more.

Okay. I believe there's other verses that talk about different punishments for different levels. But if there's no punishment, it's not talking, if I remember correctly, I've got a lot of research on this. I think, let me do this, I think what it's talking about, the punishment there in the Hebrew deals with the issue of severe punishment and is not to occur.

Let's see. And that says 21, 20 through 21, and rod is not a lethal weapon, survives for a day or two. It says that during the duration of recovery was a day, I'm trying to remember, because it's been a while since I've written on these. It was the loss of the slave's ability to work, that was the issue, the property was considered the money.

So I'm scanning through my notes on it. Okay. So anyway, I remember something about the issue of the Hebrew word for punishment. He's not to be punished. The word there is different than just disciplined, but it has to do with the punishment of death, the punishment of something really strong in that area. He was not to suffer that.

Okay. And I'm trying to, in fact, slaves were just to be set free if their eyes or teeth were damaged. They were just to be set free. So if they were beaten and die as a master was to, actually it says, the strong implies that they were not to be treated severely, which is why when a slave is beaten with a rod and dies, the master was to be executed. And there's references, I know there's references for this. He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.

X is 21, 12. A slave is considered a man. He does not become exempt because of his slavery. So I'm trying to remember a bunch of stuff, because I wrote this a few years ago. Okay.

So, you know, I do have the information on CARM, and I suggest you go through it and read it. There's also some information on the cut and paste section on it, on the issue of slavery. But the slavery in the Old Testament was different than what it was in America. And slaves could be set free. They could get their own freedom. And a lot of times, slaves chose to stay with their masters.

They just decided to stay because they were treated so well in some areas. And sometimes not. And sometimes not. But, you know, there's just a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for taking my question. Yeah. And if you have more questions about that, you know, email.

Because when I get questions like this, I often will just write out an article. Go research and write out an article about it. Okay? Yeah, cheers. Have a good day. Okay. You too. Thanks. Let's get to Jamie from Seattle. Jamie, welcome. We're on the air.

I've talked to you the other day, just yesterday. It wasn't about the soul fleet. But I have a question about what do you think about whether the older's creationism, if that's something to do, you would call heresy? Heresy can be defined in different levels. Heresy is that which deviates from the truth. So you can have heresy that is damnable and heresy that is not damnable. So, you know, the rapture is a pre or post-trib rapture, for example. Well, one of them is true, not both of them. Well, that would mean the other one was not true. And so in a technical sense, it'd be heresy, but not damnable.

It'd just be, you know, heresy. Oh, okay. Yeah, the distinction. Well, you can see, I just was thinking in context of what you said about the nature of human, or about persons in Christ's personhood and whether that was like a severe thing. And I was just wondering if that's the case, what you thought about, you know, things like death before sin and that sort of thing. Well, that's a different topic. It almost seems very problematic. Sorry, I'm having trouble hearing.

That's all right. But there's different levels of death as well. Did plants die? If Adam and Eve were eating plants, did this cellular structure that is technically alive, did it die when they consumed it?

The answer would be yes. But what death is being spoken of, the first mention of death is Genesis 2.17, where God says to Adam, the day that you eat of this, you will die. And it's talking about separation from God. And of course, that whole process of death began because the death was upon them.

And so... Is that how you take it? The lie in the garden is that they thought they were going to die and they said they wouldn't die. And we do think that it's regular kind of death, right?

Like just how we experience it. Yeah, the spiritual death occurred instantly and the physical death followed. And so they did die because real death deals with separation from God.

Isaiah 59 2. And the physical death is a result of spiritual death. It just took longer to work its way out in physical form. So that animals died by being eaten is that considered death where plants, when they die, by being eaten, you know, take an apple off a tree, it's still alive. You eat it in your mouth, you're chewing it, the cells are still alive until they get consumed in your digestive tract and they're breaking down. And then there's death in that sense. Well, is that the death that the Bible is talking about?

And most probably, of course, not, because it gets in different issues and this gets deeper. So rather good time, but okay. Why do you define death? Every separation from... I don't. Well, we're out of time. Okay, we got to go. Okay.

Sorry about that. Call back Monday. Call back Monday. Hey, folks, we're out of time.

And right in California, call back Monday if you can. Hey, folks, I hope you have a great weekend. May the Lord bless you. And we'll talk to you then. God bless. Bye. Bye.