Matt Slick Live

A previously recorded Matt Slick show. Well, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. Sorry, I was running up and down stairs and stuff like that. It's a little out of breath.

Just give me a couple of minutes and I'll catch up. Had to get me a cup of coffee. You know how coffee is. We have a nice espresso machine and every now and then I just have to splurge. And what I do is I take whipped cream and I blend it into the espresso and then I put creamer in it and then more whipped cream on top of that.

So, every now and then I do that and I splurge and that was just now. So, hey, look, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. And if you're new to the show and you're not sure what it's about, we're a Christian apologetic show and that means we'll answer questions about the Bible. And, you know, I've thought about doing various things like getting a booth someplace. I used to do this when I was younger, swap meet ministry and things like that. And I thought about, you know, going to a place, just someplace where they have a lot of people and they have booths and get something that says, you know, ask me your toughest question about God in the Bible and see if that might bring people in to answer or to ask questions. And that's what I love to do is answer questions.

I've been doing it for decades. And I started back in 1980 and just started answering questions, teaching, doing a little bit of this, someone called me a coffee snob, and doing stuff for the Lord and going door to door and doing all kinds of stuff and just had a knack for answering questions. So if you have a question, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276.

You can give me a call, all that you want. I'm working on some Catholic articles, just working on one, What is Roman Catholicism? I'm going to also be working on one of the seven sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. And so I updated also an article dealing with the view of the Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of salvation out of the Council of Trent. And I hyperlinked them to a place where you can go read them for yourself in context. And stuff like that.

As you know, I teach that Roman Catholicism is not Christian, it's apostate religion. And I have my reasons for that. And if you want to talk about that, please feel free to give me a call. Also, people have been asking about the Israel trip that we're talking about going on next year and COVID requirements and mask requirements and things like that. The information is on the web page, karmisrael.com. You can go there. There's some information at the bottom about the health stuff. And there's a survey near the top if you'd be so kind as to take it.

It doesn't obligate you or anything. We just want to know how many people want to go. Because if we know how many people want to go and plan to go, then we can check it out. And we can arrange it and stuff like that. Also, we have three online schools. If you want to check them out, you can go to karm.org forward slash schools.

And you can check that out and it'll give you the information you need. We have three online schools, one of theology, one of apologetics, and one of critical thinking. And we charge $33 each and you get a discount if you get all three. But also, if you can't afford them and you want them, you just email us and say, I can't afford them and I want them. And we give them to you.

That's it. No questions asked. We don't worry about it. We don't ask for verification. What we do is just hope that people occasionally get these because they help keep the lights on here.

That's one of the things we do with them is usually they'll pay the bills and stuff like that. And let's see, let's see, let's see. I think that's about it.

We have four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. And if you are curious what I look like, because people tell me my voice does not match my face, if you're interested, you can go to the karm.org website, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. And you'll see what we do, we have a set up so that the feed goes in automatically. And you can see, trust me, it's not that exciting. Most people, when they see my wife and I together though, they wonder how I got such a hot looking mama.

She's good looking. And I just tell people, you have to activate the bewilder filter and the mothering instinct in the women. And if you can activate both of the bewilder filter and the mothering instinct gene, you have to activate the latter by being obnoxious and irritating and stuff like that. And then they want to take care of you and fix you. And then while that's activated, then the bewilder filter makes them think that they like you. And then you get married and then, you know, after about six months ago, wait a minute.

So it was too late for her. So that's how that works. And if you want, you can check out my books on that stuff.

Go to Amazon, type in my name, you'll find a bunch of books I've written on different topics. And one of them is actually on that topic, all for fun. All right, so why don't we just jump on the line. Let's get to Craig from Texas. Hey, Craig, welcome. You are on the air. Hey, how you doing, man? Doing all right, by God's grace, man. What do you got, buddy?

No. Hey, I began a, let's see if I can, long story short here, I began a Facebook dialogue with a Mormon, and he was talking, the essence of the conversation was, you know, what about those who never heard about Jesus, at least according to Mormon theology, and he's talking about the idea of spirit prison and that when, you know, they'll have the, they'll have another opportunity to hear the gospel after that they've died. And I'm trying to formulate a response to at least to get him thinking. And I know from my past history of interacting with them that they really, they're great at quoting Bible verses to us, but as far as for them actually reading it and researching it and seeing what it means, they really don't seem to do that.

So I'm really kind of asking, what would probably be the most fruitful avenue to follow to try to provide a response? Well, aside from a dark van with the masked armed guys with masks and everything in bright lights and they can't sleep, generally, you know, abducting them, re-brainwashing them, what you could try and do is a tactic I use a lot. I just say, please show me that in scripture. And that's what I do with all kinds of people. I do it with J-dubs, I do it with Muslims, I do it with Catholics, I do it with Eastern Orthodox. You know, if they quote the Bible, they say something biblical, I say, show me. And then if they can, if they have a verse they want to go to, I say, let's read the context.

Let's see if the context demonstrates and supports what it is that you want it to say. And 99% of the time, it never does because the cults don't know what they're talking about, the false religious systems, they don't really exegete the eisegete. So that's what you got to do with the Mormons. Now, you have to understand that they believe that Mormonism is true because it's the true and restored gospel. They believe that they have the authority of the priesthood and that they, in their organizational structure with their prophets and their apostles, the 70's quorum apostles and all this kind of stuff, they teach that they have the authority to interpret scripture, they have the authority to tell us what it means. And you have to be in their church under their authority to really understand everything. The way you get in is through baptism and testimony.

You have a testimony that Joseph Smith is a true prophet and et cetera, et cetera. And so they go by feelings and not by scripture. This is one of the things Satan does.

As long as he can get them to take their eyes off of God's word and put it onto anything else, that's all he's got to do and then they'll fall for something. So the problem here is that you're dealing with a cult, a member of a cult, who thinks that feeling truth is the right way to find truth because the testimony of the spirit and the Book of Mormon is true, et cetera, et cetera. So there's lots of different ways to do that.

So there's lots of different ways you can go about it. You can ask them about the spirit prison stuff that's in 1 Peter 3, 18 through 19. And you read the context and it's not about humans in spirit, it's about it looks like demonic forces. You go to Jude talks about that as well. And then 1 Timothy 5, 21 talks about elect angels and there's some stuff. But you can't get into the idea from 1 Peter 3 that that is the case. Ask him for scripture and nine times out of ten that will open up the door for the conversation. That's what he provided with 1 Peter 1.

And I was trying to find what the word of his stance is on it, dah, dah, dah, dah. But then after thinking about it a little bit, after the resurrection and the veil was rent, there is no more existence in spiritual prison. Because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Yes, and produce life. Either way.

Either way. Yes, but you see, you've got to understand Mormon theology. What they teach is that there's a pre-existence where God the Father and his goddess wife came from another planet. And they became God and goddess. And they came to this world.

He's about six feet tall and I don't know how tall she is, but they're married and they make spirit babies in heaven. And Captain Kirk officiated the wedding, right? Well, and so this is what they teach though.

This is what they teach. And so they are married on their time of eternity. And so there was millions and millions and millions of spirit offspring in the pre-existence. And so there was a discussion that was had in heaven about who would receive the glory for salvation of the people when they got on earth. Now, salvation in Mormonism means universal resurrection.

It can also mean forgiveness of sins, but it basically means universal resurrection. So anyway, so a third of the spirits, the pre-existence spirits that went with Jesus' plan were born in white skin bodies. A third of the spirits that went with the devil's plan were cursed never to be able to be born in human bodies at all so they could not be exalted to godhood and they became demons.

And the third that didn't go either way were cursed to be born in black skin bodies. That's what Mormonism used to teach. They deny that now, but that's what they should teach and it's all in their older writings.

That's what they taught. It can't be denied. And so when you get saved in Mormonism, it's not, you know, a forgiveness of sins. You have to go to the temple, but in order to go to the temple, you need a temple recommend. To get a temple recommend, you have to pay full 10% tithe of your income documented to the church for a full year.

You can't have done certain bad things, etc. Be in good standing with the church. The bishop of the Mormon ward gives you a temple recommend.

You can then go to the temple. In the temple, you get new garments. Nothing kinky happens in there, but you get garments. You get secret handshakes, secret hugs. You get an apron. I could tell you about the apron and Satan's apron.

I think they're related. And he puts a foot on the apron. And anyway, so if you've been a good Mormon, etc., etc. Then when you die, well, anybody dies, there's three heavens in Mormonism. So the first level is a telestial. The middle heaven is terrestrial. And the third heaven is celestial. Now in the third heaven are three levels. And the highest level is called the church of the firstborn.

That's just what it's called. So all people who die basically go to either the second or the first level, basically. And if you're a really good Mormon, you might, if you've kept celestial law, go to the third level of heaven. We can become a god and goddess and stuff like that. And that's just an overview of Mormonism.

So this is what they teach. So when they talk about spirit prison, they mean, oh, the spirits that died, they went to one of these levels, and etc., etc. And so it's just made up from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and some others. They just made it up. It's not in the Bible.

Okay. In hearing this, the missionaries that I have talked to all seem to have been brought up in it from you. Are you aware of anyone, or have ever met anyone who left, say, Presbyterianism at 35 and became a Mormon?

I'm Presbyterian myself in theology and polity. I have met over the years people who have left all kinds of groups and things like that and become Mormon and become Jehovah's Witnesses. So Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, non-denominationalists become Mormons. And then, you know, they become Catholics.

They become Protestant. It's just, it's a mix. Hey, we've got a break. You want to hold on? That is it. Are we done?

But you want to hold on? No, that'll do it, man. Thanks a lot. Okay, man. Bless, Craig. All right. Hey, folks.

Four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276, give me a call. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, welcome, everyone. We have four open lines.

If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276, please give me a call. They've got a question about God, the Bible, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity, Baha'i, Islam. Let's see. Did I say atheism already? Logic, evidence, evolution, all kinds of stuff. UFOs, the occult.

Yeah, we're talking about a lot of stuff over the years. Let's get to Kurt from North Carolina. Kurt, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt. A quick question. I had a discussion. I was having a discussion with my mother in regards to Christianity, and she said something that sparked me a little bit. She said that she believed in a God. So then I asked her, I said, you know, Jesus, that he is God, and you believe that Jesus is God. And she stated that she believes the Trinity, but then she went back and said again that she believes that there's a God.

I don't know how to really... Well, we had to ask questions. Well, what does she mean by a God? You always ask for clarifying terms.

You always ask people to explain. So I've had many conversations over the years where someone will say, well, I don't believe in the Trinity. And I'll say, really? Okay, so what is the Trinity? It's three gods. And I say, well, no, it's not. Yes, it is. I said, no, it's not.

One God in three distinct simultaneous co-eternal persons. And they say, what? Right. Yeah. And so you've got to find out what it is they teach, what it is they're believing.

Because if you don't know what it is that they really believe, then you start talking without defining your terms. You really kind of talk past each other. Right. Right. Okay. Okay. I'm thinking, honestly, her and my brother, it seems like they're reading the book of Enoch. My brother is, he's like doing something where he's been reading, um, other than the Bible, something explaining Adam and Eve. And in both of them, I feel like they're just trying to find a way to go against the grain, which is weird because I know that they, you know, Find out where they're getting this from. Okay.

There are different groups, different radio programs, some heretical TV stuff, occasionally internet stuff, book of Enoch, the preexisted, the pre-Adamites, uh, things like that. Find out where they're getting it. Do you want to be negative? Just say, Hey, where are you getting this stuff? I want to read this too. And you go check it out and you start doing research on it.

And, um, I got a word on that. I got a habit of, I'm a new Christian, so I got a habit of when they talk, you know, in regards to like, if I get my feelings about the situation, I tend to somewhat bark about it rather than trying to just calm down and get to that level and go from there. You know, I draw the analogy with martial arts. I've done years and years of martial arts and there's two different styles. One is to meet force with force. Another one is to use their force against you or against themselves. So if someone's rushing you, you know, you can step aside and push them. You know, and cause their momentum takes them, uh, where they have to go and things like that. So when someone is stating something, it's a momentum. If you meet force with force, generally speaking in apologetics, generally it doesn't work.

But sometimes it can, just depends. And so what you do is keep them going. Oh, okay.

So, well, what is this? Explain this to me, you know, and you step aside and they just keep going and then they turn around, they come at you again, so to speak, and you don't meet force with force, so to speak, despite its analogy. And this way you can get information out of them. Then you say, hey, we're back later. And then you go get trained and you come back and you deal with them appropriately. If that's kind of a loose analogy, but that's what you do. Okay.

Okay. I appreciate that, man. I think I'm going to tell them to call and see your show too. They should call.

I'll tell them to call and see your show. But, you know, people are intimidated. People are intimidated to call me and my wife's not intimidated and my friends aren't intimidated.

They don't even care. But people who don't know me are intimidated. That's what I get. I've been intimidated to call you myself, so I know. Why?

What's the problem? Well, you know, I'm a sinner. I'm a sinner. So, you know, occasionally if I'm not thinking about something and I have a question. Yeah, I'm not a sinner. You know, sometimes, you know, you're looking for an answer that, you know, is the wrong answer.

You know, if someone gives you the correct answer, it's going to frustrate you a little bit. And this is part of being a sinner, you know? Okay. Well, I can relate to that. That's for sure.

My wife, if she's listening to this, she's going, Amen. You know, that's right. Hey, you know, I mean, I'm a sinner saved by grace, kept by grace.

That's all it is. All right, buddy. I appreciate it, Matt. God bless you, man. Thank you. Okay, God bless you, man. All right. So, hey, folks, we have five open lines. Nobody's waiting right now.

If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. A couple of things really fast. One, we've got an alternate menu thing fixed, a workaround for the menu problem that we've been having on the website. It's turning out to be a really interesting problem. And the company that has the module that we use for the navigation, and we spend a lot of time picking which one, it turns out it's only having a problem here. And so it's really a mystery, and we're working on it.

But the web guide developed, it was called the alt menu, and it'll work on any browser, any condition, things like that. You can go check it out. All right. Now, you know, I have my information out on Catholicism. Catholicism was open, or is open. And it was either, I think it was last night, I'm on Discord a lot talking about various topics.

And so I think it was on last night. And some people were asking about Catholicism. And a Catholic and I were having a discussion, and it was a nice enough guy, and he tried to defend Catholicism, which I think is just a bad choice. But, you know, that's okay, you can try. And we got into the issue of the Marian apparitions.

So since nobody's calling right now, what I was thinking, I do this every now and then. I want to read the apparitions, I want to read six quotes. And three of them are from Guadalupe, Mexico, in 1531. And three of them are from Fatima, Portugal, in 1917. And what I'm going to do is read them, and you can see the progression of the heresy that comes through them.

Now, why am I bringing this up? As I brought it up yesterday, I said, this is what the Roman Catholic Church says is officially really authentically Mary. That it really was Mary. They sent their experts out. And their experts concluded it really is Mary appearing.

And so these are officially recognized. And when I read these to you, and you hear what they say, if you're a Christian, you'll understand this is ungodly, and ultimately it's demonic. And the fact that the Roman Catholic Church cannot tell the difference tells you how bad off the Roman Catholic Church is. So when I was talking about this with some people, Catholics, I said, Matt, you make a mistake. We're not obligated to believe those things. And I said, that wasn't what I was saying, was it? I didn't say you were obligated to believe it. I said, the Roman Catholic Church says this really is Mary.

It's official. It really is Mary. And if it's really Mary, then why is it saying what it's saying, these apparitions?

And if it can't tell the truth of Mary, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have any authority. All right, so I'm going to start reading. But if you want to give me a call in the meantime, we have five open lines. 877-207-2276. Give me a call, folks, OK?

Five open lines. Now, let's see before the break. Yeah, OK. So this is what happened.

And the first apparition in 1531, the word is K-N-O-W, know, to know something. Oh, boy, perfect timing for the break. When we get back from the break, I'm going to read some of these, and we're getting the callers coming in. So give me a call, folks.

We have open lines. 877-207-2276. I'll get back. I'm going to read for like two or three minutes.

The Harrises of the Mary apparitions. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody.

Welcome back to the show. We have four open lines if you want to give me a call. 877-207-2276. Now, I said I was going to read some apparition stuff. I need to cue the scary music.

This is what it says. This is the first apparition, 1531. Know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever virgin Holy Mary. So this apparition says it's Mary. And then later, in 1531, I am truly your merciful mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land, and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. I will hear their weeping, their complaints, and heal all their sorrows, hardships, and sufferings. So instead of pointing to Jesus, the apparition points to itself, those who seek me, those who love me, those who trust in me, et cetera.

That's bad news. Here's another one from 1531. Am I not here, I, who am your mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?

Wow. So you don't need anything more than Mary. Is that what the apparition is saying? That's not what Mary would say. And so obviously, this is progressing, getting worse and worse, right?

Because, oh, man. Now, in 1917, three children said they saw an apparition. And this is what it says on May 13th, and then June 13th, and then July 13th, which I think is interesting because 13 is the number of sin. But at any rate, the first one, are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings he wants to send you as an act of reparation for the sins by which he's offended and for the conversion of sinners?

Now, whoa, get this. This is actually an attack on the atonement of Christ. It's actually saying the atonement of Christ is not sufficient to cleanse you. Now, the first apparitions, it says, you know, those who seek me.

And then it says you don't need anything more than me. And then the sacrifice of Christ is not sufficient. Now, it's not saying that. But what it does say, the apparition is saying he wants all the sufferings he wants to send you as an act of reparation for the sins by which he's offended. Sorry, Jesus is the one who made the act of reparation for the sins by which he's offended. Jesus did that. What this apparition is saying is that these children have to do it.

So that's the denial of the sufficiency of the atoning work of Christ is an attack on the atonement. Bad news. And then on June 13th, I will take Hasinta and Francisco shortly.

And these two children did die out of the three. But you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to my immaculate heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it. Wow. So now Jesus wants people to be devoted to the immaculate heart of Mary. Okay.

That's not what Jesus says in the Bible. Just come to me. Because why? Because he's God in flesh. Don't go to a creature.

Go to him. God in flesh. And then the final one.

Oh boy, this one gets me too. Sacrifice yourselves for sinners and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice, oh Jesus, it is for the love of thee for the conversion of sinners and in reparation for the sins committed against the immaculate heart of Mary. So now they're sinning against Mary.

And you've got to make reparations for your sins against Mary. So the Roman Catholic Church officially states that Mary is not a goddess, but they actually elevate her to a level of a goddess. And one of the things I say to the Catholics, I say, do you pray to Mary? Yes.

I say, let me ask you a question. Can Mary hear millions of prayers simultaneously all over the world, spoken and thought in different languages, and she can answer them all at the same time? And I've had Catholics say, yes.

Well, that's a goddess. No, it's not. No, it's not. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

So we would say if it walks like heresy, quacks like heresy, it looks like heresy, then it's heresy. All right. We have four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276.

Maybe you're a Roman Catholic and don't like what I just said, then call me up and challenge me. I'd love to talk to you. Let's get to Dan from Iowa. Dan, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt. I called you about a year ago, and you walked through with me a little bit on baptism and baptistic in a lot of my doctrine, and I attend a Presbyterian church now, and I'm trying to get my head wrapped around why we baptize infants. And I just wanted to know if you could articulate that for me. A good way for me to...I'm a firm believer in believers' baptism, but yet I'm trying to be open-minded about this whole thing.

What are your thoughts on how I should approach that? Okay, I'll answer it, but let me ask you first. Which denomination of Presbyterianism is it? PCA, OPC?

PCA. Okay, that's good. All right.

Yeah, I used to be a PCA pastor. All right. So you understand... So let's look at it this way.

I'll give the short version of it. So God called Abraham, and he called him out of the Ur of the Chaldees, and he made a promise to Abraham in Genesis 12, 3. In you, all the nations shall be blessed. And that promise, that covenant promise of God, was ratified in circumcision. Are you with me? Yes.

Okay. Okay, and so circumcision is the sign of the covenant. So whenever God makes a covenant with someone, there's a sign associated with the covenant. So in Adam, in the Garden of Eden, before they fell, the tree was a covenant sign.

After they fell, the animal skins most probably didn't say, but most probably were killed in the shedding of the blood. The New Testament covenant is circumcision, excuse me, you have the Lord's Supper. The Davidic covenant was future and fulfilled in Christ. Now, the Mosaic covenant, the signs of the covenant are the two tablets, which are 10 and 10, not six and four, but 10 and 10, and there's reasons for that. And so we have the Noahic covenant, the sign of the covenant is the rainbow. So when we have a covenant, there's a sign. When we get married, my covenant sign is my wedding ring.

My wife's covenant sign of our marriage is the wedding ring. All right, now it's not the covenant signs that are the covenant, but the covenant signs represent the covenant. So when God said to Abraham, he says, I'm going to make you a father of the multitude. In Genesis 17, he talks about this, changes his name from Abram to Abraham. The sign of this covenantal promise was circumcision. And in part, the reason was because of the shedding of the blood of the male. And the male represents his ascendance.

It's called federal headship. In Adam, all die, 1 Corinthians 15, 22. So when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, she sinned first. The Romans 5, 12 says that sin entered through Adam, not through her.

Not through her, and when they were in the garden hiding, the pre-incarnate Jesus came to the man and said, where are you? Didn't say to Adam and Eve, where are you? This is signifying the headship of the male, which is why the male only is circumcised, aside from the obvious reason, and the shedding of blood is offered. Now that covenant was commanded to include infants. The infants were commanded to be included in that covenant, but circumcision did not save them. Now that quote, Genesis 12, 3, in you all the nations shall be blessed, and the sign of the covenant is circumcision. That verse, Genesis 12, 3, in you all the nations shall be blessed, is quoted by Paul in Galatians 3, 8. And he calls it the gospel.

He says the gospel is preached beforehand to Abraham, saying in you all the nations shall be blessed. So Paul the Apostle is saying that the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect, right? Right. Okay. Is there any command in scripture anywhere to exclude infants from the same covenant?

And the answer is no. So we go, wait a minute. So why do we baptize?

Well, here we go. So I'm going to show you something, Romans 4-11, and Abraham received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith, which he had while uncircumcised. So circumcision was a seal of the righteousness of faith, which he had. It was a seal of that which he already possessed. It's like a stamp of approval. It's like a certificate.

It's a seal. It's a covenant sign. So this is what he says about circumcision. And then when we get to Colossians 2, 11, and in him, you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body, the flesh, or the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism. So what Paul does, he doesn't equate them, but he relates them.

He relates circumcision with baptism. So there's a relationship. So the question is, how much of a relationship is there? Now we've got a break coming up. We've got a break coming up, so hold on. I'll explain a little bit more about the break. Okay. Okay.

So folks, please hold on. If you have questions, all you gotta do is give me a call. 877-207-2276. Welcome back, everybody. We have three open lines.

877-207-2276. Are you still there, Dan? I am. Okay.

So I'll just go quickly. So Paul relates them. I don't say equates circumcision and baptism, but it's close to it.

So something's going on there. So what I look at is the covenant of Abraham is still in effect. I must find a reason to exclude infants from the same covenant.

That's how I see it. Now the question then becomes, well, if only the males were circumcised, why do we now baptize both theoretically the males and females? And that's because the shed blood has occurred and the representative relationship of the male to Christ has been fulfilled. And now there's neither male nor female in Christ in the issue of salvation.

And so therefore they can be under that as well. Now, I will just be the first one to tell you, hey, there is not a single instance in the entire Bible of an infant being baptized. So if you're not convinced... Yeah, I get that argument quite a bit. Well, it's true. So if you're not convinced, then don't go with it. You're obligated to believe what you think is correct, because this is a debatable issue, what you think is correct before the Lord. So if you don't agree with it, okay. And that's fine.

But let me give you one more thing to think about. Let's say there's two Jews walking. They meet every day and, or let's say once a week as they go into town for business. And Paul the apostle is there. Jesus had been there, died, and they've been hearing about this and they've been walking once a week talking.

And finally, one of them gets converted and they're talking. And he says to his friend, who's still Jewish, he says, you know, I understand now God's covenant faithfulness to the people of Israel, to those who would trust in him. And now I understand that now that the Messiah has come, now the covenant faithfulness is not for our children. So I don't have to do anything with our children anymore. That would never fit inside of the mind of a Jew, would it? Ever. That God would exclude infants, their children, from the covenant faithfulness of his work. But he never did. Okay, that's a thought.

You there? Yeah, I see that. But what I don't understand is if we don't know if our children are elect and we pray that they are, and we strive towards that. So if we do baptize them, are we, based on this theology that you're presenting here, are we saying that we believe that God will save them?

No. What we're saying is that God will be covenantally faithful to you, the head, and to the child. And that it's a sign and seal of your covenant before God with the children being included, as it was with Abraham. It does not guarantee anything. It is not a means of salvation.

It's just a covenant sign. And if you agree with that, that's fine. And if you agree with that, then get your children baptized.

And if you don't, then don't do it. I'm very much the believer in that the father has the federal headship and responsibility to lead his family the best way he sees possible according to scripture. And so I affirm in the baptism, I have no problem baptizing infants.

I have never done it, but I guess I have actually my son who passed away. But I would have no problem with that because of my theology. But if I were a pastor of a church and there was a couple that had a new baby, and they said, we don't believe in infant baptism, would you dedicate it? I'd say, yeah. Yeah, no problem.

Okay. So when somebody says that they correlate that to baby dedication, would you say that's accurate or no? They correlate it to baby dedication. The one problem now is that they're making a covenant in baby dedication. They're saying they promise to do X, Y, Z. That's what a baby dedication is. We promise to dedicate our lives to raising this child for the glory of God.

That's fine. Where's the covenant sign for the covenant that they're committing? Because biblically, all covenants have signs. So they're making a covenant without a sign. That's the whole thing.

If they're going to do it, then let's see a sign. Okay. And then we can get into sprinkling. You call back and we talk about sprinkling. Because I can show you where baptism is sprinkling.

I can show you where it's pouring. And I can show you where it most probably means immersion. All in the scriptures. Right.

And I've come to realize that the mode is not nearly as crucial as I thought it was in the past. But I'm still trying to see once they were saved, they're baptized. And I don't see, of course, the scripture of infants getting baptized. So it's a hard correlation to make. I'm trying to piece it all together. But I just want to see your take on it. And like I said, go ahead. No, you go ahead.

Go ahead. I'm just trying to piece it all together to where I can faithfully serve. And like you said, I do hold that responsibility. And I take that very seriously.

And I'm trying to wrestle through this. How do we glorify God best in this? You glorify God best by studying the Word, coming to your own conclusion, before Him and before your family.

And you do what you think is right biblically that way. And I will support you with a position you've fallen. OK? All right?

Sounds good. All right, brother. Appreciate it. Thanks, brother. All right, man. God bless.

OK. All right. Let's get to John from Wake Forest, North Carolina. John, welcome. You're on the air.

Yeah. How you doing, Matt? I'm doing all right. Hello? I'm doing fine. How are you doing? I wasn't sure if you heard me there. Oh, yeah. I'm doing fine.

Almost home from work. So I am not complaining. OK, good. Because I can complain. I'm a whiner. Wait.

I'll take a little wine for your stomach. Bad joke. OK.

So what do you got? OK, so I, a while back, had a discussion with somebody about my position is that there absolutely cannot be UFOs. There aren't any civilizations out there to fly here and flight, you know, beaming us up in spaceships and all of that. And of course, you know, oh, yeah, sure, there's got to be. So my argument, and this is why I'm calling, is that I wanted to see if you would either agree that my argument is sound or give me fodder for improving.

And so basically my argument basically goes something like this. Of course, God created everything. And so here on Earth, Adam, as part of creation, sin, and now all of creation comes under the curse. Right.

Well, if all of creation comes under the curse and there is some civilization out there somewhere that we don't necessarily know about, well, then they come under the curse, too. Right. And so, yeah, I mean. So your position is that, well, let's get to the point, though, that, because we're running a little bit short on time, we've got to call our weight and suppose to see.

But no worries. So you're saying that they don't exist. So my argument, I'm saying they can't exist. And the reason is, of course, because there's sin everywhere.

Yep, go ahead. OK, I agree with you that life does not exist any place else in the universe. There's no chance by evolution or what's called a biogenesis that life formed by chance. It's impossible. And I know the mathematics behind it, and it's just not going to happen. However, UFOs are real. I've been studying UFOs for close to 40 years.

I mean, probably 30 to 35 years. And not real in-depth, but I love that kind of stuff. I watch documentaries on it. I travel five hours here. I'll put on tapes and stuff on UFOs.

I listen to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of stuff over the years. What we know is they're real. The question is, what are they? They are on radar. They have been seen visually.

They have varying witnesses of all kinds of rank and authority and reputation all over the world. Something is real, and something is happening. I mean, they'll have something on radar. They'll see it moving. They'll send a jet out there. And the guys go, there it is. They have film.

There it is. And so it's real. There have been lots of accounts. You can look up the England thing in 1988, something like that.

There's an American base over in England. That's a spectacular, well, account of what happened. The question becomes, what are they? Well, since we, you and I both agreed, life's not forming by chance anyplace out there. If there's a life out there, God created it. But that's another topic which I don't believe happened. So what are these things?

Well, let's just jump ahead. It turns out these UFOs teach theology. And you can go to khouse.org, the letter K, house.org. And you can get the book there on aliens and stuff like that.

There's others who've written stuff. They've done research and interviewed people who have been abducted, so to speak, and have discovered that they learned theology. And I know this is true because what started me studying all this stuff years ago, I'm going through it quickly, is reading an article by a secular psychologist in a secular magazine where he said that they were being taught theology. And he was shocked at what he found. And the theology that some of these abductees were being taught was Jesus is not God. We are all divine and reincarnation is true. And he was just blown away.

He was not a Christian, he said. When I read that, that's what got me started because I thought something's going on here. This secularist got me started studying this stuff.

And I've been studying it ever since. I've lost the article, I don't know where, at any rate. So the question then becomes, what are they? It would seem that there's some demonic connection.

Okay, I can give you a chance to jump in if you want. Okay, so maybe I need to clarify a little bit about what the argument was. The argument of UFOs meaning in the case of our discussion was something that came from some other planet somewhere else. Some alien life, because I agree. I mean, look, just because a bird flies across the sky and I don't necessarily recognize it as such, it becomes a UFO.

Right. Right, I can't identify it and it's flying. So that, by definition, makes it a UFO.

Yeah, but there are accounts of people seeing, I mean, sergeants, lieutenants, officers in the military, on the ground, one in England, seeing and touching these things. And it's on record, writing notes. That's not the only one out there. I know that it's surprising.

Oh yeah, it is real surprising. Okay, so what is it that's being seen? That's the question. That's the question. I guess it would be. I would hope that if those folks had touched and seen and all that, they'd be able to walk it out and say, look, here is what I've seen. They do. That's right, because if it's on the ground and whatever's no longer flying.

It's on the ground. It's just, you know, they've seen things in different languages, I mean different countries over the years. And it's been going on for quite a while, not just 10 years. So like I said, I've done a great deal of study on this and I know a lot of different odds and ends. And after a while, they start blurring together and you start seeing relationships. And I talked to a top UFOlogist once and I haven't given you my whole theory. But in a private conversation, he and a bunch of other people do this. And I gave him my theory. He said that that's what they thought too.

There's a definite demonic connection with them. So there's more to it, but we're out of time. OK, buddy? All right. You have yourself a nice evening, sir. You too. All right.

After all that wacko stuff that I was talking about. Hope we can hear from you next week. The Lord bless you. Have a great weekend, everybody. Go to church. Pray for your pastor. And we'll see you or hear talk to you by God's grace on Monday. We'll talk to you later. See you.