Mat Slick Live

A previously recorded Matt Slick show. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everyone. Welcome to the show, Matt Slick live. I am your host, Matt Slick.

If you want to give me a call, we have five open lines 877-207-2276. The last four digits spell C-A-R-M. That's the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, karm.org. So if you want to check it out, you can.

There's a lot of information there. Hey, uh, today is voting day. I went out and voted. My wife went out and voted.

She wore a mask. I did too. And we went out there and we went in. It was pretty efficient and I got it done.

So I hope you're going to vote and may the Lord's will be accomplished. Now we have five open lines. Why don't you give me a call 877-207-2276. I'd like to hear from you. And, uh, yeah, I'm just got some ideas and tech stuff going on here.

So, uh, okay. So, uh, I've been doing debates lately and doing stuff, uh, talking to atheists and, um, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics and trying to have discussions on the truth of God's word. One of the things lately I've been thinking about is something very, very simple that I think is, uh, is important, um, that, you know, in apologetics and the defense of the Christian faith, something to think about. And that is the issue of God himself being the ultimate cause of everything.

And this is very important because it may, it may seem a little bit odd to say that, but, uh, there it's important and there's a reason it's important. You see, um, if God is the ultimate cause of everything, that doesn't mean he's the, the direct cause of evil and sin and things like that, that would be false. But, uh, he's the ultimate cause, which means that everything that occurs occurs because God has ordained that it would occur. The ordination means that it occurs by his will, his design and his will can be, um, it can be understood to be in two senses. One is a decorative will where he's, he's directly involved and, and absolutely by his own hand caused something.

The other kind of will, let's just say a permissive will to permit things to go the way they would go to do what would happen or how few will choices of people would work. So God is the ultimate, uh, cause of everything. Now, here's a statement to think about. How many ultimate causes can you have?

And the answer is simple. You can only have one ultimate cause. There can't be two ultimate causes. So for example, let's take Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that there's many gods. Well, what is the ultimate cause of all things in Mormonism?

Well, they don't have an answer and they can't have an answer because their theology fails in that area and there's going to use this as an example and apply to Catholicism here in a little bit. If we hold to the idea that God is the only supreme omniscient, omnipotent being as the Bible clearly tells he is, and that we are contingent on his existence, that we depend on him for our existence, then he is the ultimate cause and he is the necessary being who brings about, uh, the contingent cause of all things. Who brings about, uh, the conditions of the universe, all things that are actual as well as potential. So he's the ultimate cause. If you have polytheistic system where there's many gods, then you can't have an ultimate cause and that wouldn't make any sense. And so if you can't have an ultimate cause, then you have incoherence because if something's not ultimate, then you don't have any way of determining what is true, what is absolute, et cetera.

Let me give you that some other time. All right, now think about this. In the Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, what is the ultimate cause in, uh, in their theological systems? We would like to say that the ultimate cause is God himself, but it's not the case. They have a dual, a duality of ultimate causation.

The duality is the idea. It's that, uh, tradition and scripture. So God is the ultimate cause and he has revealed himself in the word of God.

He's revealed himself in special revelation through the written word in general revelation through creation and through the incarnation in the person of Jesus Christ. So the word of God, because it comes from God is because it reflects him. It is the, uh, the, uh, the book, the record of truth by which we can determine, uh, what we ought to believe and not believe. If a group has tradition involved in it, uh, tradition is equal to scripture, then what we have here is ultimately two ultimate causes, two ultimate sources of truth. Now for the Christian, it has to be the Bible because the Bible is the self revelation of the ultimate being God. And because it's the self revelation of the ultimate being of God, therefore it is by nature sufficient and it is by nature the ultimate, uh, thing we should go to because it reflects the ultimate cause. But tradition is something that is, uh, manmade, something that is man centered. And when theological groups, Roman Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy raised tradition to the level of scripture, what they're doing essentially is saying there's two ultimate causes.

And in so doing, they, uh, bring in incoherence and they, um, they, uh, subject the word of God to their tradition. It's just something, some stuff I've been thinking about recently. And we can talk about that sometime, but, um, that's, you know, just thinking. So, uh, Hey, look, if you want to give me a call, we have four open lines. Why don't you give me a call? 877-207-2276. Let's get to Calvin from Raleigh, North Carolina.

Calvin. Welcome. You're on the air. Thank you, man. Sure.

What do you got, man? Okay. So, um, I've been trying to have a discussion. I've been trying to understand when, um, someone, well, we know that God, the world is six days and he writes it on the seventh day as the Sabbath day. Um, unfortunately, a lot of people that I've been talking to, they said that the Sabbath day is Sunday and that's the only day that it should be kept Holy. So I've been trying to understand, um, if that is true and if it's not, how I can have a discussion with church goers who go to church on Sunday and let them know that Sunday is not the Sabbath day.

Okay. So what day do you go to church on? Um, any day of the week. Any day of the week? Yeah.

I agree with that. So, uh, the groups that hold to Sabbatarianism or the idea of keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, usually our SDA, there's some camel light movement groups, restored church of God groups and things like that. But, um, we don't have to keep the Sabbath on Saturday. Now the Sabbath is by definition Saturday.

That's what it is. But in the new Testament, people started meeting on Sunday. They started meeting, uh, on the day called the Lord's day, the day of the resurrection. And they started meeting there. So in Acts 20 verse seven, for example, the first day of the week, that Sunday, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart.

And he prolonged his message until midnight. And it says in first Corinthians six, one and two, now concerning the collection of the saints as I directed the churches in Galatia. So also on the first day of every week, each one of you to put aside and say that you may prosper and that no collections may be made when I come.

So there's other verses like this too, particularly in revelation one, 10 and 11. And it talks about being in the spirit on the Lord's day. That's Sunday. Sunday seems to be the day that the Christian started meeting. And, uh, what I would say, I don't know if you've got clicking in the background, if that's what's going on, if we're having a problem here, but, um, anyway, that's what I would say to them is, uh, the scriptures teach us that, uh, in Romans 14, one through 12, particularly verse five, that we do not have to worship any particular day.

One day is the same as another, uh, to each, to different people. And each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. So anyway, there's a, there's a foundation of scripture that we could go to bring up and look at, uh, to talk about here. But, um, uh, you don't know, I don't think I answered your question, but I wanted to lay the foundation of scriptures out. So once you ask me the question again, or another question, we can move along. Oh no, that's, um, that's the primary question.

Okay. So the main verse I'll use is Romans 14, five, and it's very, very powerful. Romans 14, five.

And this is what it says here. It says one person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. If we're supposed to worship on Saturday and only Saturday, then why does Paul the apostle say one person regards one day above another Saturday over Sunday, no regards every day alike Saturday, Sunday are equal. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

If we're supposed if we're supposed to worship on Saturday, then why does he say be convinced in your own mind? Okay. Okay.

Makes sense. All right. Okay, buddy. Okay. All right, man.

God bless. Okay. We'll talk to you later. All right. Let's get to Aidan from Idaho.

We lost Aidan and, uh, something about the cherish attacks, but, uh, didn't like quite, we have five open lines. If you want to give me a call folks, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. Once you give me a call and, uh, we can talk, I'm going to adjust the, uh, the sound thing for the, uh, the room. So you should be able to hear in, in, uh, just a few seconds here. So I got that going. Sorry about that. A lot of tech stuff going on sometimes, you know, this is what happens.

There's so much to do. So back to this issue of the ultimacy of God, I think it's really important for us to understand this. And I, uh, I've been thinking about it and, and, um, it's a way to, to understand the necessity of God's word because the Bible is the self revelation of God. The only way we can know God is if he reveals himself to us, if he doesn't reveal himself to us, we can't know anything about him. And how does he reveal himself in the word of God? So therefore the word of God is a thing we should go to, right? It's his self revelation.

It's what he inspired. So if we do that, then we can make sure that we understand what God has for us when we read the word, that's what we're supposed to be doing. It's not an equality with tradition. As some churches like to say, it's going to be tradition. Also tradition is equal to scripture. No, it is not because tradition is man-based and scripture is God based and only God is the ultimate source of everything. He's the reason for everything to existence.

He's the one who revealed everything to us. And so therefore the Bible reflects that revelation of God. Tradition does not. Now, sometimes the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox will misapply verses about tradition in the, in the Bible. They do that a lot. And, uh, you know, I call them on it, read the context of things, but anyway, it's something to think about.

And it also deals with the issue of atheism as well. Hey folks, look, we've got five open lines. Why don't you give me a call and the number 8772072276.

I want to hear from you now. Maybe a lot of people are out there voting right now, which is fine. If you are voting, praise God, hope you're going to have a good time out there. It was pretty easy for me today. My wife and I went, like I said earlier, and we had a good time. Uh, it was quick and easy and my wife wasn't feeling too well. So she wore a mask. I wore a mask. We were, we've been exposed. She has COVID and, um, and so we were quarantining except for we needed to vote.

So, uh, she just wore a mask, kept away from people and that was it. So, um, hey, look, give me a call. Five open lines, 8772072276. I want to hear from you. We have four open lines now, 8772072276. We got a break coming up here in a little bit. Let me just tell you that if you go to Amazon, for example, and you buy stuff, one of the things you can do is, uh, just put in smile.amazon.com. So when you do that, smile.amazon.com, then, uh, whatever, um, charity you set it up for it, they get a small percentage of what it is that you buy.

It's one of the ways of supporting different ministries, Karm included. There is the music. We have four open lines, folks. Why don't you give me a call? 8772072276. We'll be right back. We lost that caller.

If you want to give me a call, we have three open lines, 8772072276. Let's get to Juan from Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Juan, you are on the air. Juan, are you there? Juan? Hello? Can you hear me? Yeah, I hear you.

Um, I'm sorry. Hey, you know, uh, I was raised, uh, Roman Catholic and, um, you know, this thing with, uh, with the Virgin Mary, you know, um, that Roman Catholics have, they worship her sort of like a God and, uh, you know, they're always coming to her first instead of having a direct relationship with, with God, our father and, you know, even the priest, you know, kind of feed that, you know, let's all, you know, come to the Virgin Mary so they can ask, you know, the father for whatever you're praying for. I mean, where, where does this deviation come from? You know, I, you know, obviously I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, you know, given that, you know, I, through the years I've found how these discrepancies that just don't make any sense, but would you know why, why this is, this kind of deviation exists in the church? Well, for one thing, they don't believe the Bible. They don't trust the word of God as the final authority and everything it teaches.

And so when you don't believe in the authority of God, the sufficiency of God's word, but you equate your tradition in your church along with that, in order to be able to tell what the truth is, then you're going to end up in error because that means the anchor is dragging and your boat's going to drift. And so also there was a lot of goddess worship in the cultures back then, you know, the first, the second, third centuries, fourth centuries, fifth centuries. So what Catholicism did a lot, a lot was try and get in and, and adapt.

It's kind of hard to explain. They, they try to good, they try to do something right. Like for example, in Christmas, which is the winter solstice, December 25th is not the birthday of Christ, but they celebrated it because the pagans were using that as a celebration for the pagan gods and pagan stuff, because that was the shortest day of the winter. And that meant that the days were getting longer after that point. And so they started having these celebrations.

Well, the Catholic church came in and said, well, let's celebrate that as Jesus' birthday instead, because it couldn't get rid of people trying to, it couldn't stop them from worshiping and doing and celebrating on that day. So they took the day over. That concept is what they're trying to do.

And I think there's some merit to the idea to try and do that. I believe that what happened with is that the same kind of a thing happened with the idea of Mary and the goddesses that a lot of pagan cultures went. So they say, Hey, well, we have Mary. And I think it just gradually grew and grew and grew. And then they make up these tradition things to fit.

That's what I think. So talking about Christmas, you know, why did other, it looks to me, not completely a hundred percent, but you know, it sounds, or it looks to me like even Protestant faith, you know, follows suit to the tradition of Christmas and celebrating Jesus' birth. It's okay. You can, you can celebrate any day.

It doesn't matter. It's just, but back to the issue of Mary, you know, the paganism that's associated with her and her goddess status, they'll say, she's not a goddess, but Hey, she can hear millions of prayers spoken and thought all over the world, simultaneously in different languages. That's a goddess. And so they'll say, no, it's not a goddess.

Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, Rose by your name is still a Rose. So, you know, they say she's full of grace that knots up into corruption. She's the all holy one. Devotion is to her. You pray to her.

You ask her for her intervention, ask her to do so. She's worshiped. There's no better way to look than to look to Mary when regarding the church and trusting ourselves to Mary. She can hear all the prayers.

She's a goddess. So that's it. Right. Right. Right.

They're giving her the power. Right. Yeah. So what about all these apparitions of her, you know, like, like, you know, she's shown up in different places. Okay. Oh yeah. In fact, I've got them right here on my screen.

I can read some. Here's two of them from, from Guadalupe, Mexico. This is in 1531. This is official, official Roman Catholic theology says, no, this is really was Mary. And this is what the apparition said. I'm truly a merciful mother, yours and all the people who live United in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me here, I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings. And another one in the same thing is, are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy?

Are you not in the hollow of my mantle and the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more? Yeah, you do. You need Jesus. And then in fact, in Fatima, here's three quotes.

This is May 13th, June 13th and July 13th, May, June, July 13th, which I think is interesting. 13 is the number of sin. But any rate, are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings he wants to send you as an act of reparation for the sins by which he's offended? You're talking to the children that they're going to suffer in order to atone for their sins, to make reparation for their sins. That's heresy. Jesus did that on the cross. Another quote from Fatima, Jesus wants to use you to make me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to my immaculate heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it. So the apparition promises salvation to whoever embraces the immaculate heart of Mary.

It's obvious that these are demons. Here's one more. Absolutely.

Oh yeah. And check this out. This is sacrifice yourselves for sinners and say often to Jesus, especially when you make a sacrifice. Oh Jesus, it is for the love of thee, for the conversion of sinners and in reparation for the sins committed against the immaculate heart of Mary. So now you sin against Mary and you have to have sins forgiven because you sinned against Mary.

So this is, she's a goddess in, they won't say it, but in Catholicism, she's functionally a goddess. So that's it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

So they're idolaters. Well, that's part of the tradition as you were stating earlier about, you know, the first substance you were talking about. Right.

That's right. When God is the ultimate source of everything, then his revelation is, takes on the quality of that ultimate source because it's what he has given us and he has done it in his inspired word. And it's the only thing said to be God breathed. Man's tradition is not God breathed, flat out. So what the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church have both done is raise their traditions to the level equal to scripture.

And the result of it is that scripture is not above their tradition, but actually traditions above their scripture, because what they'll do is they'll go through their traditions, their councils, their church fathers, and then they will decide what the Bible means based upon what their tradition says. That's how it works. And that's why they're false. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much for that explanation. All right, man.

Sure, buddy. No problem. All right.

God bless. All right. Okay. All right. Thanks.

All right. Hey, folks, if you want to give me a call, we have three open lines, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Scott from Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Scott, you're on the air. Yes. I went across a verse that I thought was interesting. I hope you do.

This is the second Chronicles 15 verses 2B. Okay. Well, tell you what, we've got a break coming up, so let's get to it after the break, okay?

Because we want to check this out. All right. Hey, folks, we got a break. And if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276.

We have three open lines. Give me a call, folks. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on the air with Scott from Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Scott, welcome. You're on. Yes. The verse I had said in the second Chronicles 15, 2B, and I read it was all right. Sure.

Go ahead. The Lord is with you while you be with him. And if you seek him, he will be found of you. But if you forsake him, he will forsake you. Right.

And I was wondering, is that also New Testament wisdom? Or context? The context is important because it's a prophet of Azariah, warning Asa. So it's just specifically to him.

That's what it is. So you read the context. Now, the Spirit of God came up on Azariah, the son of Oded. And he went out to meet Asa and said to him, listen to me, Asa, et cetera, et cetera. And he told it.

So it was for him. OK. That's what it is. Are you there? OK.

I'm here. I was wondering about, it sounds like you're talking about a way that Christians might fall away. No. This is Old Testament. And it's not about Christians. It's not about falling away. It's about the prophet Azariah giving a word to Asa.

That's what it is. It's specifically for him. The Lord is with you when you're with him. And if you seek him, he'll find you. He'll let you find him. But if you forsake him, he'll forsake you.

So that's what's going on there. OK. How do you go about determining whether it's New Testament wisdom or Old Testament wisdom? Well, by reading the New Testament.

Read. If it's in the New Testament, New Testament wisdom. If it's the Old Testament, it's the Old Testament wisdom. If there's something in the Old Testament that is clearly universal, clearly universal, then, you know, like all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved, you know, things like that. Well, OK. That's universal. Or when God says we're not to commit murder, he says it universally.

Well, that's true. But a lot of times what people will do, particularly in the positive confession movement, and is, you know, I forget what chronicles think it is. God says the plans that I have for you. Let's see if I can even find that.

Yeah, here it is. Jeremiah 29 11. For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

So they'll say, people say, oh, that's for me. No, because it's dealing with the issue of the exiles back then. And he's specifically addressing them. For thus says the Lord, when 70 years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill my good word to you to bring you back to the place. For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord.

It's talking about exiled Israel. And so what a lot of people will do is they get on TV, present example, and they will quote this verse. I've heard him quote this verse. I know the plans I have for you and to bless you and prosper you.

See, God wants you blessed. Wait a minute. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say it's for you. It doesn't say that's what the text is saying. So they rip things out of context to make it, well, to tickle ears of people. That's what it is.

So that's what's going on. So I know there's a lot of Psalms and Proverbs that people like to read, but I was wondering if the audience in Psalms and Proverbs is the Jews, or should I just study the New Testament? No. Study the whole Bible. And you have to learn how to interpret the Bible.

Always read the context. For example, if you go to Psalm 100, shout joyfully to the Lord all the earth. Serve the Lord with gladness. Come before him with joyful singing. Know that the Lord himself is God. It is he who made us, not we ourselves. We are his people and the sheep of his pasture.

Now, that's beautiful. And it's for all the believers. We can look to the Psalms.

We can say, oh, this is really good. In fact, the Bible actually says, let's see, spiritual songs, that we are to speak to one another in the New Testament. In Colossians 3 16, let the word of Christ richly dwell in you with all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another with Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. So it says admonish each other with Psalms. So the New Testament says go back to the Psalms and check them out and use them. So the Psalms are one of the ways we can, you know, I'll just give you another example here.

Okay. And Jesus referenced the Old Testament in Luke 24 45. You know, he talked about, you know, everything about him and the law, the prophets and the Psalms will be fulfilled. He knows that the Old Testament is about him.

And since he's in the New Testament, we know that the Old Testament is relevant. Okay. Makes sense. Okay. Well, I better let you go. Appreciate your time. Okay.

Sounds good. All right, brother. God bless. Bye.

And incidentally, Luke 24 44, not 45. All right. Let's get to Al from North Carolina. Al, welcome.

You're on the air. Hi, Matt. Hey, I got a question. You know, you brought up this tradition versus scripture topic, and I have a friend who says he's Greek Orthodox. That's too bad. And I don't know if that's the same as the East Orthodox you were just talking about.

Um, but he, he made a comment. We went out to, uh, someplace on a Friday and he didn't, didn't want to eat anything but fish because that's his tradition. And I know the Catholic church had that tradition for a long, long time. So is the Greek Orthodox church, a spinoff of the Catholic church, or is it a Protestant kind of a religion? It's definitely not Protestant. It's a spinoff of Catholicism. Of course, these are Orthodox will say Catholicism is a spinoff of them. It doesn't really matter. The, the issue here is that, uh, both Catholicism and Greek Orthodox, uh, add works to salvation.

This is what it comes down to. They don't believe in the sufficiency of, of the blood of Christ, and they don't affirm justification by faith alone in Christ alone. And so what they'll do is they'll add works and they believe in a false gospel.

So, uh, they do this. So the East Orthodox is the same as the Greek Orthodox? No, there, there's, there's like the Eastern Orthodox group, the Orthodox church, Eastern Orthodox, Syrian, Greek, uh, there's various ones that they, that they have, and they all hold to the basic same kind of a thing. It's like, it's, it's kind of like Protestant denominational, uh, denominationalism.

So Protestantism holds to certain doctrines, Eastern Orthodox, or the Orthodox church as a whole holds to certain doctrines, and then there's variations within it. So they hold to this sacred tradition that they are this true church. Salvation is in their church.

You have to be good in order to, um, be saved. Sacraments are part of salvation and that you have to participate in the sacraments one way or another in order to be, uh, to have God's grace infused into you, to work in you through things like that. Eastern Orthodox talks about, uh, a theosis, the deification of man, not in scripture.

So because of the traditions, then they hold to false doctrines. Well, I was planning on witnessing to this gentleman. He's about my age and you know, he, he said that he's, he, he was an altar boy, which I was an altar boy cause I grew up Roman Catholic. Uh, but I didn't realize the Greek Orthodox church was so similar to the Catholic church, but he told me he only went to church when he was in his teenage years, you know, every, every month, maybe once. And then after he had gotten married and kids, he, he didn't take his kids much to church. And, you know, he basically said, I'm going to let them decide on their own.

Right. That's being a bad parent, but yeah, you should teach them in the ways of the Lord, not let them decide on their own. They need to be brought up in the ways of the Lord.

That's what's supposed to happen. But yeah, just ask him about how he is justified before God. How is, how are his sins forgiven? Just listen to what he says, ask questions about, about it, and then ask him if he's doing what's required. And he'll say, well, I'm trying, which means he's not, you know, if I'm supposed to jump 10 feet from roof to roof, I either do it or I don't do it. If I try and I fail, I didn't do it. If I try and I make it, I did. But trying means I keep trying, but not making it. I'm trying, I'm trying.

It goes back to the works like a Catholic church. Yep. There's a break, buddy.

You want to stay on or you don't? Thanks a lot. Nope. Thanks a lot. That was it. All right.

God bless. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We have four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody. Welcome to the show.

If you want to give me a call, we have three open lines, 877-207-2276. Nelson from Bakersfield, you're on the air. Hey, Matt. I got some bad news.

I could not capture Bigfoot to run for president. Okay. Well, I guess so.

All I know is that Christ is still on the throne and whatever happens, happens. And he has control over everything. That's right. Yes.

My question is, you know, I've been calling about a friend. He has sent me several videos that he doesn't believe in the triune God. And so he has sent me videos about that. Supposedly, I know they're false and Wikipedia links that supposedly the Catholic Church is the one who invented the Trinity. No, it's false. And so I was just going to ask, do you have an article or how can I explain this?

Here's the thing. What I would go do, I'd go to Karm and look up the Trinity chart. Okay.

Just look up Trinity chart in Karm. All right. And what you'll find there is a list of, there we go, a list of the table.

You'll find a table. All right. I'm gonna do it right now. I'm having some weird internet problems too. If someone is an expert on internet and browsers and stuff like that, email me. I got the weirdest problems going on. And I was a tech and I can't figure some of them out. I need an expert. So come on. It'll load and it won't load and it loads.

I've redone stuff. At any rate, it's happening right now. If you go to the Trinity chart on Karm, then what happens, you'll find that the chart and you'll find where it says one God exists, only one God in Isaiah 43, 44, 45. Monotheism is strictly there. What we do is we look at the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They each speak. They each have a will. They each identify others, say you and yours and me and mine. These are qualities of what we call personhood. And each one is involved in the resurrection of Christ.

Each one indwells us and things like this. And so because of this, this is how the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at. It's arrived at systematically. It's not arrived at by some council that got together and then decided what it's going to be.

It's not how it is. So the Trinity, you know, the Trinity chart is what it is. Look at the Trinity chart on Karm and what you'll find is that table there. Each is called God. Each is the creator. Each resurrection, each one indwells, each one is everywhere, all knowing, sanctifies, life giver, fellowship with, eternal, a will, speaks, loves and searches the heart. So all those titles I just gave, they're scriptures that show how it applies to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at systematically by this, not my chart.

I just put it together for people. This is how it's done. So what they did is they said one God in all places in all time. That's it.

Okay. The Father is called God, so is the Son, so is the Holy Spirit. The Father created, the Son created, the Holy Spirit created. The Father resurrects, the Son resurrects, the Holy Spirit resurrects.

It's not an issue of a council coming together and saying, hey, let's invent this thing called the Trinity. No, they look at it and they go, what are we going to do with this? We see these scriptures. We see these things.

So what are we going to do with them? They concluded the doctrine of the Trinity. So the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at systematically by looking at the whole of scripture, looking at all of the word of God. And so when people deny the Trinity, I'll ask them, oh, how the Trinity arrived at? And they don't know. And I'll make them squirm a little bit and say, look, if you don't know how the Trinity is arrived at, then you can't say if it's true or false because it's arrived at systematically by looking at the scriptures. Tell me how that is done when you look at the scriptures by taking things out of context. And I'll say, look, I'm not playing games here.

Seriously. If you don't understand how the Trinity is arrived at, then you can't say it's true or false. And so this is what you have to do with them. Okay.

Okay. Put him on the defensive because he doesn't understand what the truth is. And if he's going to deny the Trinity, then I've got a question.

Let me run this by. You can ask him. That means he believes in only one person who existed forever, right? Yeah.

Okay. Before you ask him that and get to that, just kind of change the topic a little bit and say, I got a question for you. He's going to sound a little bit off topic, but I want to ask you something. If we're to take a human being and put them in a jail cell and turn off the lights and the temperature is neither hot nor cold for him. And, you know, he's got a place to sit and he's got a toilet and food's given three times a day. He's got a bed and that's it. He's not allowed to get out of the cell ever, ever.

No one talks to him. Nothing happens at all. I say, would that be torture? If it happened for year after year after year, of course it would be. I say, well, we're made in the image of God, right? Yes. Would it be torture for God to exist eternally just like that? If he's one person, if he exists as one person forever, then there's no fellowship. There's no intimacy. There's nothing. So is this what you want to say? God experienced forever, forever.

It was just nothing. But we would call that torture. We would call that inhumane. So I'd ask him, please explain how, you know, how that's not torture for God. You know, it's an interesting question. That's a good question.

One more last question. He also tells me that I kind of find it funny, but yet it's not funny because, you know, as scripture says, God cannot lie, right? Right. And he says he can if he wants to. He won't, but he can because he's God.

No. What he's saying, he would be saying that God can be self-contradictory and be incoherent. God, by definition, he does not know scripture, he does know God. God can only do what he can do, and he cannot violate his own nature.

He is the all-knowing perfect being. There is no way that he can contradict himself and not speak truth, because God always speaks the truth. And to speak a lie would be something that would be against his character. For this person to say that God could lie is further evidence that he's not representing the God of the Bible, but he has a false God that he believes in. That's what I told him. You worship a false God. Yes, he does.

And he kind of laughs about it because he thinks I'm in the lie and he's in the truth. Just saying. I showed him a link with that one guy, the Council of Nicaea, I think, in the third century. I can't pronounce his name, so it's Sibelion. There you go. Sibelion. What a coincidence. Yes.

What a coincidence. The same belief that he invented, you believe. He doesn't comment on that. He just laughs. Well, tell him, you know, laughing doesn't help his position any. That if he's going to come to the table with some rational discussion, then bring it.

But if he's just going to laugh and mock, then don't have a conversation. Now, you can also go on CARM and you can look up early Trinitarian quotes. And there are quotes from Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, where they're talking about the issue of the doctrine of the Trinity. Polycarp said, Oh, Lord God Almighty, I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved son, through whom be glory with him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever. So he died in roughly 155 AD. He was a disciple of the Holy Spirit. He was a disciple of John the apostle. And Justin Martyr said, for in the name of God, the Father and the Lord Jesus, the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe and of our Savior, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, that they receive the washing of the water. What happens is, as time goes on, they articulate the doctrine of the Trinity more and more.

They deal with it more and more because they had to deal with it more and more. So, the Council of Nicaea did not invent the Trinity. He is just making it up. So what I would do, I would say to him, show me the documentation. Just show me the documentation where they said that the Council of Nicaea invented the Trinity. Show it to me.

If he says, Oh, come on, I don't have to show it to you. That's what happened. Then you're just making things up. Show me the documentation or just drop that assertion. Prove it. Okay. Well, okay.

All right. Well, thank you very much, Matt. God bless you and your ministry. Hey, man. Thanks a lot, buddy. God bless. All right.

That was Nelson from Bakersfield. I've been there. Just a wretch from the East Coast, someplace on the East Coast. Welcome. You're on the air, buddy. How you doing, Matt? Doing all right. Hanging in there.

What do you got? Ma'am, what's up? My oldest daughter is about at the age now where she wants more social interaction. She wants to be around her peer group. I'm hesitant to send her to church camps and stuff in my area because of some experiences I had as a kid. Experiences that actually drove me far, far away from the church for a long time.

There might be some other people in the same boat as me, and I was just asking if you had any advice on that other than scoping them out like I do. You mean the sending them to church camp, you said? Well, just youth groups in general. Just youth groups for children in church.

You know, church camps, youth groups, get togethers, kids for Christ, all that stuff. Interview the people in charge of that. Interview them. Well, see, I've tried that, and they have very little time for me. Then you go there to their place. You go to the church. You knock on the door, and you say, I've been trying to get a hold of you, and it's been difficult, so I thought I would just come here. Maybe we can have lunch together.

I need to ask you questions about the spiritual care of my child. Right, and that's how I feel about it, and that's why, like I said, I've been so put off because every time I call or try to get in touch with them, I'm just put off. They really don't have time. They need to make time.

That's the way I feel about it. That's why I'm having so much trouble with finding a peer group for my kids that I can trust, at least to some extent. That's why you've got to make sure because from what I've heard of youth groups, they're not that godly in a lot of ways. They sometimes get somebody in just to entertain the kids and try and be cool.

It can be pretty bad. That's why I would say if there's a youth pastor there, I just make an appointment and say, I need to talk to you. If he says, I don't have time, well then you don't go there.

You don't send your kid there. Right, but at a certain point, nobody has time and you run out of places. I mean, I don't live in a big city or anything, and I've pretty much got the brush off from everywhere around, and I kind of feel like I'm at a dead end. The brush off? Everybody? I just feel like insulting you so much because you remind me of me. It's like, well, you're hard-headed.

You want the truth. So no wonder people don't want to hang around you. They really don't.

Yeah, I understand how it is. You have these questions that are like, we don't want to talk about serious stuff. Yes, you do because I'm here. They don't want to talk to you. I've got stories like that, but sorry about that, buddy. Call back tomorrow.

We can talk some more about him. All right, God bless you. All right, buddy. God bless. All right.

Hey folks, we're out of time. May the Lord bless you. Vote today and pray for our country. Oh my goodness. Pray for our country. May the Lord bless you by His grace. Be back on air tomorrow. We'll talk to you then. Bye.