Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at Carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, interlisted to Matt Slick Live. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do. is dial 8772072276 and you can also send me an email info at carm.org info at carm dot org All right, now.

So All right, from last night. I had an appointment last night and then I had to cancel it because another appointment came up that I'd forgotten about. And so I was on Marlon Wilson's discussion with the Orthoboros. And uh Man, I'll tell you, uh these guys are just Here we go. Horrible people.

They're horrible people. Um no grace. Uh nothing but aggression. interruption, rudeness, Denial of truth. I call them, I'm going to start calling them the orthodox.

instead of orthodox, orthodox, because they're quacks. Yeah. And uh It's really bad. We finally got into a discussion where several people there, they're not very nice, or not. and they can't understand things, can't understand the basics of of a lot of stuff and it was really bad.

Really it was. One of the things they said is you can't use the Bible unless you can justify how you know what bullocks books belong in it. And that's that's not logically necessarily not logically true. And uh and in the middle of this fray of statements, That I said, no, you don't have to know what the Bible is in the context of knowing how it's arrived at, justified, etc. And then they took that.

And they extracted that and said that I don't know what the Bible even is to use it. Which is what I said. And then this guy named Jay Dyer, I think it was Jay Dyer, he took and he edited out certain stuff of the video to make me look bad. This is what they do. And I was talking to some of these guys, and they were rude to interrupt.

I had it several times. Come on, let me talk, let me finish. And uh He was bad. And so, um They were making all these claims, making all this stuff. And one of the things really interesting, two things were really interesting, as I was talking to one of them.

With Romans 4:5, where it says to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. I said, See, it says the one who does not work but believes. I said, Is Paul negating works here when it comes to justification? And he said, No. I mean, what do you do with someone like that?

Paul says The one who does not work but believes. Is he negating works? No, he's not.

So when he says not works, it means really works. Wow. And then just thinking like that, you know, and then I asked them. Yeah. Are they keeping the commandments because their salvation depends on their goodness?

And one guy goes, Yes. Wow. You keep his commandments. And, uh, And so I said, Oh, you're keeping the commandments.

Okay, do you repent? He goes, Yes, that's part of the commandments, is to repent.

So he's keeping the commandments. It's so. It was so stupid. And so, yeah, I'm keeping the commandments because when I don't keep the commandments, I keep the commandments by repenting.

So I'm keeping the commandments. It was just ludicrous. And this is the kind of thinking. It was really just phenomenal. I think these are the guys that were called the Ortho Bros.

And. No. Mm-hmm. They should be the ortho burps because I'm telling you, some of their arguments were not very good. What they are good at is quick assertions and.

And uh i and they wanna hook on one little thing you say and then jump all over it. You know, that's what that's what they're gonna do. And uh we went into modus ponens and and finally I I gave him a modus modus ponens. The guy s thought I couldn't do it and I did it and then he kept quiet about that. Th these guys, you know, just go.

Yeah. Orthodox. They're orthodox. Let's get to Matt from Connecticut. Matt, welcome.

You're on the air. Hi, man. How are you today? Doing all right, man. Hanging in there, hanging in.

What do you got, buddy? You know, I was uh w I had watched in the past that debate with James White and William Lane Craig. It looked like a Calvinism versus Mullenism debate. Uh-huh. And I I found the issue of Molinism or the subject of molin is be very confusing.

Okay. I was just wondering what your take is on Molinism I know it's kind of a broad question, but like What what do you think of modernism?

Well, I had a two-hour discussion, a very polite, very good discussion with. I forgot the gentleman's name, he's a PhD and. Written books on Molinism, researched it extensively, and was a well-known author in that camp. I I forgot his name 'cause it was a couple, three years ago. And Now, I'm not trying to misrepresent him or oversimplify Molinism, but it basically comes down to this.

I remember saying this: is this what it basically is? He says, yes.

Okay. Okay. that God knows or God desires to save as many people as possible. And so, what he does is he brings the world into existence in which the free will of people is utilized in situations. such that the most people will be saved.

God knows what different situations will bring about different results. That's called middle knowledge, or counterfactuals, I should say. He knows what conditions, if they existed differently, would bring something else into effect. And God has worked the greatest benefit for people of mankind in order to bring people into salvation. And so there's problems with that.

One, It assumes what's called libertarian free will, that the unbeliever is simply able to believe given the right information, circumstances, etc.

Now this is a simplification, but this is the basics of it. And of course, that's refuted by Jesus in John 6:65. It says, You cannot come to me unless it has been granted to you from the Father.

So it's not up to your free will. It's just not, because Jesus refutes that. And then the thing I've been asking Molinists and others who say that God wants everyone to be saved, and what they mean by that is his honest desire is that he's intending for everyone to be saved, but it's up to individuals, and so they don't realize what God wants for them.

So God's kind of not helpless, but his hands are tied because he's a gentleman that doesn't want to violate her free will. And so uh they don't get saved.

Well For one thing, nothing in the Bible says God won't violate our free will. This is just a made-up assertion that you make. But, second, I ask him. Does God know whatever it would take? to in any condition with anybody's free will anybody In order to bring them to the faith, does God know what it would take to get anyone saved according to their free will in any condition, any state, any time?

Does God know how to do that? And they have to say, well, yes, because he's God. And then my question is, well, why doesn't he do it? You see, if the Mullinist view is right, that counterfactuals and different worlds, potential of worlds, and how free will is used in those, and that's what brings about God's great decision to save people, and most people are being saved.

Well, all He's got to do, if He wants anybody saved, is to show His glory to Him. That's what it's gotta do. It is so pervasively powerful that you will be knocked off your horse on your rear and you will confess Jesus as Lord. Because this is a nature and a natural thing with the power and the majesty and holiness of God. It exposes your sin to you very quickly.

And it reveals to you you need a Savior. And so There's that, plus, God is one who grants that we believe. Philippians 1:29. He grants that we have faith. And Jesus says, This is the word of God, that you believe in whom he has sent.

So if God wants everyone to be saved and He's kind of tied by their free will, Well then what about those verses that speak against Molinism? And this is how you deal with it, okay?

Okay. That that is helpful. They really can And you know, it's just another way to make it seem like God's trying his best to save everybody, but Right. He can't in that system because he leaves it up to the the free will of bands. Right, because they don't want Molinism, doesn't want to say that God causes uh any human choices.

which is basically dumb. Because God certainly can cause human choices. He moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go. Proverbs 21:1. And he can uh He can, for example, I mean he can make us choose what we what he wants us to choose.

He could have a certain circumstance occur that alters our choices. He's in control of the circumstances. He's the sovereign king. He is the one capable of this.

So think of Molinism as a means of reducing God in exalting manner. a little bit make them a little more even, okay. That that's what the problem is. It's another way of getting around Calvinism.

Well, yeah, you know. Yeah, what Calvinism says is that God is the sovereign king. He elects people for salvation. Ephesians 1. 4 and 5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, that you can't come to him unless it's granted by the Father, John 6:65.

that he grants we have faith, Philippians 1.29. etcetera. You know to me, Calvinism is ex seem extremely simple. Just believe what the text says. Yeah, that's what I see.

Yeah, just believe it and you're okay. All right. I I agree thank you and I agree with you. I think if If you're just looking at what the text says, I think that's the Perspective that you're going to come to. You have to bring philosophy from the outside end to Got some of these other views.

Yes, I agree. Did you try it? And I I don't mind talking about it. Yeah. No, I I liked it when you saw you do a great job.

I l I like Any of your debates were like where you debate debate uh Calvinism. I I think you do an awesome job defending. uh reform position Well, thank you. I think I know it pretty well. I think I know most, if not all, of their answers, their objections.

And I've been doing it for so long that it makes sense to me. Um And stuff like that. Anyway, so okay.

Well, Matt, I really appreciate your time and I thank you for answering my question. Sure, brother. No problem, man. God bless. Have a good night, God boss.

Okay, thanks Luke. All right, all right, all right, all right.

Now, let's get to Joe from Florida. Joe, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, brother. How are you, man?

I'm hanging in there, man. Hanging in here. What do you got, buddy? What's up? Good.

Well, um, you know, I was It was a very curious thing. I was on YouTube last night, just kind of scrolling through, and all of a sudden, this debate. uh thumbnail comes up and I was like, Oh, what the heck?

So I click on it. Dude. You're on there, and I'm like, no flipping way, man. I was like. No way.

And I was telling him. My family here, I was like, watch. Dude, Matt is gonna tear these people up. Watch. I'm serious.

I'm dead, serious, man. Because Alex and then the, I don't even know the other guy, but I can't.

Well, they're orthobros, you know, they Whatever, but I knew, and it was funny because it was like, I think JP was on there, he cut out. uh humble servant whatever he cut out and then it was like You were just priming and you were just chilling, man. You know, you were just waiting. It was it was a beautiful thing 'cause I knew I was like, Oh man, watch him, man, he's gonna Come out. Um But Anyway.

What was what was really cool is the fact that, okay. I heard you earlier say what they love doing is just nitpick on one thing and just stay on it. Like, like you said, the dude. was so f that other kid was so focused on the one uh like uh what was it the Instead of going to scripture, because you wanted to go to Romans 4. Right.

You know? And he was just fixed on that one little thing you mentioned, and he just wouldn't let it go. And it's like, dude, that has nothing, that is so irrelevant right now. Exactly. Like irrelevant, but that's right.

Modus ponens. If P, then Q, P, therefore Q, is all it is. And he says, show it to me. Show me. It's like, dude, we're talking about the scriptures.

Let's get to the scriptures. And, you know, it was so irritating. He was just a. Oh yeah, I I know. And I tell you you did a great job, man.

Praise God. Yeah. Because the fact is, how?

Okay. The questions. How can Orthodox, Catholics, all these other you know, false religions of Christianity say.

Okay, hold on, but we gotta break the wall. Hold on. Hold on, we got a break. I want to hear what you say. And sorry about that.

It's a hard break, okay?

So hold on, brother. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. If you want to give me a call, the number is 8772-07-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Alright, and welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number. is 877-20722 7-6. All right.

Let's get to Job.

Okay, back on there. Hey, brother, are you back on? Yeah. Yep. Yep here.

Uh-huh. Oh, yeah, great.

So, one thing, I do want to plug your Carm screen. schools, man, because they're phenomenal, okay? Sure. They they really are the the school of apologetics. Theology.

I think, you know, no matter how much we know, we can always know more. You know what I mean? By God's grace.

So I just want to plug your man, your schools are great, man, and they're easy access and phenomenal. Uh Praise God, man. Thanks. I'm going to be working on another one on biblical interpretation. I'm going to actually use some of the Eastern Orthodox approaches as examples of what not to do.

But uh but yeah, they're they're there. And I really appreciate you mentioning that.

So the The discussion last night, were you did you hear When this one guy said, when I asked him if he can, an exact word he didn't remember, but it was something along the lines of: are you able to keep. Or do you keep yourself right with God by keeping the commandments? And ultimately, get salvation. He said, Yes, you know, faith in you remember that? I I do, and he kept it it was so goofy, man.

He kept Yeah, he kept saying, uh, Yeah, I do because I repent. Yeah. Yeah. So it means, so stupid, I'm breaking the law, breaking the commandments, but I keep them by repenting? It's just, it's just the ludicrous thinking.

And one of my favorites was. Was when that one guy said that when I quoted Romans 4:5 to the one who does not work but believes, is Paul negating works? And he said, No, I mean, but it's exactly what Paul's doing, does not work. And so it was really interesting. Yeah, the I call them the orthodux now because they're quacks.

They're quacks, man. They are. They are. I agree with you, Matt. And the thing is, how can they reconcile from scripture, right?

Because God doesn't contradict himself, right? I mean how can it No, he does not. He can't.

So how can they say James means what he means. Which totally contradicts Paul, which contradicts Christ, which contradicts really heck from the very beginning because. If you look at Abraham, because I was reading Genesis, right, earlier today and last night was awesome. But check it out.

So Abraham Abram was called by God. chapter 12. Right? And so. Abram starts out on his journey to the land.

Between there He goes into Egypt because of the famine and what not. And he literally tells, you know, Soraya, hey, tell them, you know, I'm your brother, you're my sister, so they won't kill me because, you know, you're very attractive. And after that is when God made his covenant with Abram.

So it's not about Abraham being some good person. It's God's choosing God's righteousness and imputes to him even then. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I can get into all that kind of stuff with them. And yeah, but they are exceedingly aggressive.

And now, this is my first encounter with these guys and the Orthodox bros. And now I know why they have a reputation. People have been telling me about the reputation that they have, they're rude, aggressive. And and they're just not Christ-like. No, not at all.

And they avoid scripture like the plague. What they do is, and I know you noticed this too, is they do what cults do, which is they take one verse. And then they make an entire doctrine and practice out of one verse here and there. They pick, cherries pick them. Yeah.

Yep, that's right. Yes, they do. Bad stuff, bad news, and uh Yeah. I'm even more convinced now how bad Easter Orthodoxy is from their behavior, lack of thinking, their rudeness. Yeah, it was pretty bad.

Yep. Well, hey, Matt, listen, I just want to say God bless you, brother. And I do hope to see you more out there, man, defending the faith against those Orthobros and Orthodox, because it's. You know, it's been spreading the past couple years, and it was just really cool to see it out there, man. Praise God.

Oh, yeah, I want a piece of these guys. I want them, and uh, I want them to be forced to actually answer questions. Because one of the things that happened last night was I was asking direct questions, and this one guy was not answering them. He would kind of answer it, but change the question I was asking and answer something different. I had to continually bring him back on, and people said he answered.

No, he did not. And so this was typical of them too. I noticed that they do that a lot. Cults do that too. Yep.

Bad stuff. Yeah. All right, man. All right. All right, man.

Well, hey, thanks so much, Matt. God bless you, man. All right, bro. You too, man. God bless.

All right, there you go. Hey, folks, you want to give me a call? The number is 877-20-722-76. Let's get to Simon from Norway. Simon, welcome.

You're on the air. Yeah, thanks. Just calling from tomorrow here, already Wednesday. Good for you.

Well, um yeah, uh I have a question. I um My son asked me an interesting question today, and I think I gave him a reasonable answer, but I want to hear your thoughts also. He asked me, why did God Take so long. with sending Jesus. Because it took time to get everything in place.

He wanted the and God works with real people in real time.

So he had to wait till they got married and have children, and more children have more children. And then he called up Abraham, hey, go over here. And it just took a lot of time for all this to work out because God works in time with us. And so even with Adam with Adam and Eve. They left, I mean, they sinned, and then it took a bit of time for God to find them.

I mean, God knew where they were, but you know, where are you, Adam? It took time. And it just took time for the prophecies to be made and the prophecies to be fulfilled. And so in that perspective, it just took a while for everything to be set. On another perspective, well according to to God Time doesn't God doesn't relate to time the way we do.

So, what we might think is a long time, He might think is not very long at all.

So different ways of looking at it.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so What I've told them was that, um No. That that that that the revelation of of uh God's plan of salvation is brought to us through history and and uh and that Christ came as also a fulfillment of prophecies Yep. that people before Christ, they were saved by Their anticipation of the coming of Christ, whereas we are saved upon.

the fullness of what Christ has done for us. On the c on the cross. Amen. But yeah, but then I looked up Galatians 4. Chapter, yeah, verse four, where it says, But when the time had fully come, God sent a son born of a woman.

So Christ was born at the right time, but it was at the When the time had fully come.

So then I had to look into what does that mean? What does it mean that the time had fully come that. That was the precise time when Christ was to come. Yeah, that's right. According to the prophecies, and it takes time because God works inside of time and with people.

And then so He does it. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. All right. Well, that was my question for today.

I listened to you pretty much Every night, and yeah, blesses me a lot. And I use your material also on my own podcast, in Norwegian, and stuff.

So, thank you so much. Hey, you're welcome so much, and thanks for using it. Yeah. Okay, brother. God bless.

Thanks a lot. Bye. All right, we'll be right back after these messages. We'll then get to Rebecca. And then Steve, and we're right back folks, please.

Stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show. Let's get on with Rebecca from Utah.

Rebecca, welcome. You're on the air. Hello, Matt. How are you? I'm fine.

Thank you for asking. What do you got?

Okay, um Come on. When the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, Yeah, he, uh, prayed the the Lord's prayer. Yes. And when I pray, I change one word, and I just thought, Jesus doesn't like that? What word?

I give. Yeah, it's like uh give us a steak or give you bread. I change it to give us a stay or gay breath. Bread to what? What was the word?

I didn't understand. Oh, breath. Yeah, what he's saying there is our sustenance. that you know provide for us. And so that's why I say that.

Now, a lot of people think this is a formula prayer that you have to pray it. According to the formula, you can. As long as it's not repetitious and vain and just recited. He says, pray this way. He didn't say pray these words.

He said, pray like this: you know, glorifying God, his kingdom comes, you know, provision for us, forgiveness, let's not be tempted. you know, and things like that. And that's what that's what he's modeling. And it's slightly different. From Matthew s excuse me, Matthew six to Luke eleven.

So, because it's it's it does say daily bread in Matt in Luke 11, too. Excuse me, but it's a little bit different, okay?

Okay, so then I shouldn't say breath. I should just say bread.

Well y you can say what you want. Uh it's not a formula prayer you have to recite. If you want to say breath. Our daily breath, that's fine. And you might want to just in there also, you know, please provide for what we need.

Because that's what that's about. All right. I thank him every day for what he has given me. I don't plait for nothing.

So, uh anyway. I thought you might be interested about how I was raised. I was raised as a Catholic.

Okay. What it entailed.

Okay. And what? And what it entails. Yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, no problem.

Um yeah. And good. That you're you're out of it and that uh you're Christian. Indeed, I'm Christian. Thanks a lot, thanks to you too.

I I listen to you every day. Oh, wow. I loved your yeah.

So anyway, we lived in Oh, praise God. Mhm. Um, we lived in uh the smallest town in Colorado. And it was uh the um one built that was called San Luis. Colorado.

Um most of the people there, if not all of them, were uh Spanish. In Spain.

So everywhere we went, it was just Spanish in the bars and the stores, everywhere.

So um Anyway, when we went to church, um, it was in Latin.

Now, how am I supposed to, as a little girl, understand that? It's just the devil's way of preventing people from hearing the word of God. When it says done like that, yeah, that's what it is.

So I'm glad you're out of it, and uh, and hopefully, you're going to go to church now.

Okay, so good. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was it was just so, you know, I never learned anything from it. Just it. you know, once in a while I would feel good going, you know but Didn't learn too much from them anyway.

No, that's how it is. That's how it is.

Well, thank you. Do you have anything else you want to ask? It actually Yeah, I just wanted to mention to you in my library I found two Greek Testaments. One is volume screen. And it Oh.

Renee is Uh collisions. efficient telephone and Cool options.

Okay. And and the other one is book four. And it is, um, let's see, chemistry harvest. Uh See Hebrews James and are the Gelman? Is that how he's here?

Okay. By the way, yes. Uh-huh. Well, good. You can give them to a local church.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's a good idea. I thought maybe we might be winning. But in front of every epistle, it has an introduction.

And then it has the Greek writing on the top. And then on the bottom an extensive In English, what it means. Yes, it's called an interlinear. Yes, an interlinear. Yep, quite familiar with it.

Yeah. Uh-huh. So good.

Okay. Well, you really appreciate that, Rebecca.

Okay. Thank you, and you have a good day. You too. God bless. Thanks for calling.

Thanks for listening. I appreciate it. You're welcome and back you too. Bye-bye.

Okay. Goodbye. All right. Well, if you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 8772-07-2276. Let's get on with Steve from Ohio.

Steve, you're on the air. Hey, Matt. Before we get started, I watched a little bit of the discussion that you had on Marlon's channel, and I was just wondering how you're feeling because you had a little episode there. Yes, um I'm still uh having aftereffects of it uh today. And um So uh I had a few uh okay.

So I apparently had way too much coffee yesterday and my heart started uh skipping. And it normally, I'll get a skip. I have matruvalve prolapse and I'll get a skip every now and then. I'm used to it. But this one went on for like 10 seconds.

And and so I sort of had to stop to pay attention. And that's what happened during that. And so I'm laying off coffee. I did it before, and it was too much coffee, and that's just my own fault. 'Cause I'm on the go all the time, so That was that.

Yeah, is it something that you can be treated like surgically, or is it just something you're kind of dealing with on your own? I just deal with it on my own. In fact, I'm going to be having, because I'll be 70 this year.

So I'm going to have a, what do they call it? A health drug? Check up a wellness checkup. They're going to run me through a bunch of stuff, and then we'll get more information and. You know, it's just it's just getting older.

Yeah. Yeah, and I was just curious. I'm a registered nurse. You and I have talked about in the past before, but anyway, I was just letting you know that I was praying for you. I saw that, and I like immediately stopped, and I prayed for you, and I just hope everything works out in the long term.

Yeah, I still feel a little wonky in that area because it something happened, and I know that. That I'm getting older, and that it may be a sign need to slow down. You know, it just will talk to the doctor about it. and stuff like that and um it's what it is. But uh All right.

But yeah, and I've been under a lot of stress for the past few years, too.

So there's been a lot of stress now. And you have. I mean, and like I said, I haven't stopped praying for you with the loss of your wife. I mean, I know she was definitely a Proverbs thirty one wife without question.

So those prayers haven't stopped for you and your family either. Yeah, and it was very stressful taking care of her too. And I'm not complaining. It's a privilege. It's a privilege.

And I I honestly consider that. But it it just took a lot out of me. And And that's okay, no complaints. But you know, and plus, it's getting older, yeah. Yeah, and that's the part people, you know, don't understand.

You know, it's like when I because I've got a mother that I would care of, you know, she had multiple abdominal aortic aneurysms, and she almost died a couple times last year. And I'm the only child, and she's not married.

So, you know, the quote-unquote burden was on me, but it wasn't a burden I complained about. It was a privilege to take care of my mother. You know, but people don't realize there's still the physical stress that comes on your own body, especially when you get older. But at the same time, looking back, I'm so glad that I did it, you know, because it's like she's still with us, you know, and she's the one that led me to the Lord on top of it.

So it was just multiple blessings. But, anyways, I wanted to just say that before moving on to the main thing. During your discussion with the Eastern Orthodox last night, was anything brought up about the Eastern Orthodox Bible specifically, A, they don't have a unified Bible, and B, depending on what Eastern Orthodox you talk to, including Eastern Orthodox priests, they don't even agree with you. Each other, that they have a unified Bible.

Some say they do, and some say they don't. Yes, I didn't hear that. I think it was a little bit brought up about it, but I really wasn't paying attention to it too much. And but I think it was very vague. And so I haven't really studied that in particular to see.

But it is worth going in and looking at it. because they do have their problems and the Eastern Orthodox is not as unified as they want to claim. I know that.

So there's problems. But then it's good observation. Yeah. Yeah, because what it is, is that I know that the East has a different view of the scriptures and specifically canon than the West do. You know, like the West, the you know, the Council of Trent defined, you know, the canon as 73 books.

Protestants have always, you know, since the Reformation has defined it as 66. But with Eastern Orthodox, depending on who they talk to, it's different. And have you heard about how even Roman Catholics, they don't agree with each other when they read the Act of the Council of Trent, whether or not books could be added to it from the Eastern Orthodox Bible? They tend to disagree even at Catholic answers. Yeah, they have their differences.

Yes, they do. Now, hey, but there's a break, so hold on. You want to hold on after the break? Sure. Or is that it?

Okay. Hey folks, we right back after.

Well excuse me, after this message, so please stay tuned. You're right, man. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show.

Let's get back on with Steve from Ohio. Steve, are you still there, brother? Yep, I'm still here. And I know you got other calls to get to, so I only have one other question for you. Sure.

Okay, it's about the Quinned Sex Council, sometimes known as the Councils in True Law, can be drowned 8692. I know the Eastern Orthodox recognize it. I don't think that the Roman Catholics do. But one of the reasons is because I think it's Canon II when it talks about the different You know, canon lists out there like the Laodicea and Carthage and Athanasius and Philokaiats and everything. Do you know if in the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, which was convened later, if it recognizes the Quinicent councils in the in Truvo specifically?

I do not know. Yeah, that's a church history kind of a thing. It's not my forte.

Okay, okay. I can say, though, I've been in that building. of uh Secondicea. I'm jealous. Yeah, and I've actually been in the building, in the very building we had the very council.

How about that? Isn't that cool?

Okay. You know, that's awesome. I know that you went to Turkey some years back and saw some of the ruins of some of the churches there, and that's something I would love to do. But with everything going on in the Middle East right now, I don't know if I'll ever get there then. I would love to see, like, especially the footsteps where Jesus walked in Jerusalem and throughout Israel.

Yeah, been there, done that. Eric Johnson's one of the guys that we deal with. He runs uh a lot of this and he he's gone I don't know, he's probably gone over there I don't know fifteen, twenty times, I guess, I don't know. And uh he does great tours. Yeah.

Yeah, and just real quick, and I'll let you go, but the reason I brought up about 2 Nicaea, because it says something about affirming the previous six ecumenical councils as well as the previous local councils, and I think Eastern Orthodox believe that would include the councils in True Low. And if that's the case, because the Roman Catholic Church affirms the seventh ecumenical council of 2 Nicaea, if that's true, wouldn't they also be affirming these council lists that don't agree with them?

Well, it depends which ones they are. And since I, like I said, since I'm not a guy who studies those councils. I really couldn't tell you. Fair enough. All right, well, I'll let you go.

Anyways, God bless you. God bless your ministry. I learned a lot from Carm.org, and I encourage everybody to go on that because you'll learn a lot there and continue to pray for Matt and his ministry. God bless you, brother. Hey man, I really appreciate it.

Thanks a lot. Appreciate it a lot. Yep. Bye-bye.

Okay. Alright, now before we get to the next caller, Jeff, I want to just say something because he and I both kind of talked about a little something about caretaking. And I want to take the opportunity to say that if you know someone who is a caretaker, of someone else. The someone else usually is the one who gets the attention and the needs taken care of. No complaint, nothing wrong with that.

That's good stuff. But just remember, caretakers are often overlooked. And sometimes the caretakers need to be taken care of. They need breaks. because it can become very difficult over a long period of time.

And they're just humans. And so I just want to give that little bit of a shout out about that issue. And the reason I know it because I had to go through it. And like I said, not a complaint. It's just, you know, it can become.

It could become work.

So be sympathetic and helpful to the caretakers as well. That's all. All right. Let's get to Jeff from Ohio. Jeff, welcome, Nonier.

Hey, Matt, thanks for taking my call. Sure. Do you hear me okay? I hear you fine. I hear you fine.

Okay, great. Yeah, I um Yeah, what I called about, I know we've touched on it before about the gifts of the spirit and all, and spirit. Speaking in tongues, but I tried to search your wetharm.org site. For specifically, I tried to narrow it down more to praying in tongues or as Many charismatics also call it praying in the spirit. I just wanted to know if there was a thing on the CARM side I could look up or if you can tell me in a nutshell.

Your take on that. Yeah, one of the reasons I've not written on those on purpose is because. I I can't say definitively what they are. And So I want to be careful that I don't I don't mistakenly give someone support for something not biblical. And so I've kind of shied away from that, just from that purpose.

Now, I could write an article saying some say this, some say that, and then just write caution about these and how it's used. And so There, you know, what does it mean to pray in the Spirit? We would presume what it means is the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, is working in and through a person. To bring them to that place where they are praying according to the will of God and/or with a knowledge that they may or may not have, or an intention they may not have been aware of, for someone else, for the intercession for someone else.

So the spirit, the idea, the spirit's moving them.

Now, some will say that necessitates praying in the tongues as at the same time. I don't believe that's necessary. Those uh not because not all people spur spray. Pray in tongues, it doesn't mean. That if they pray in tongues, that they also have to pray.

in the spirit and that they're one of the same. Because I know people who pray in tongues or speak in tongues. But they aren't moving from what I would gather is praying in the Spirit. because praying the spirit seems to be a little bit more Two. supernaturally moved towards things you're not exactly sure of and and have knowledge and and um emphas emphasis on.

Make sense?

Okay, yeah, the reason I was asking about it, I mean, I've heard various positions on it, you know, like. Total cessationism, of course, would come down hard against that. But I heard one pastor on the radio uh say that Okay, if you speak in tongues, then you must have an interpretation. And of course, there's the charismatic Well, let me address that. Let me address that.

Yeah. The issue of praying in tongues and there must be interpretation is in the context of a gathering of believers in church. And that if one person stands up to speak in a tongue, tester 1 Corinthians 14 teaches this. Then let it be with interpretation, otherwise, remain quiet, because you're edified, but the body of Christ is not. That's the reason for that.

at all.

Okay?

Okay, so you're not necessarily against. Praying in tongues during private devotion. No, not at all. I have a pastor friend. We prayed together before, and he said, Do you mind if I pray in tongues?

Well, I don't know. It doesn't bother me anymore. I don't need to know what is being said. And he's a Calvary Chapel pastor. And.

Um I don't need to know and and it doesn't bother me at all. Doesn't bother me at all. No problem.

Okay, good. Yeah, the thing is, I also almost attended a Reformed denomination. I don't want to say which one it is, but. The thing is, I decided not to attend that even though I liked their evening services because I was working the evening shift at the time. But The thing is, though, they had in their literature they talked about How Their appeals counsel that they supported the disciplining of a Pastor who was caught praying in tongues during his private devotion, and I thought, That's stupid.

Not going to this one. Yeah, that's stupid. And uh yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's stupid. I would stand up against that whole denomination on that issue.

I tell you, you can't discipline a guy for speaking in tongues in his own private prayer language when the Bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 14 to seek the spiritual gifts.

So are you going to say what? And I'd say to them, are you saying that 1 Corinthians 14:1 is not applicable for today when it says. Seek the spiritual gifts. And so it's yeah, I'm very familiar with this because I was a pastor, senior pastor for a short time. At a church plant in a Presbyterian church in America, and they found out I believed in the continuation of the gifts, just believed that they continued.

And long story short, they uh they couldn't I couldn't be a pastor anymore. Just for that.

Okay, that's ridiculous. Yeah. I, you know, I. You said it was PC, you were PCA. Right.

Well,. One well, okay. Thing is, I know some PCA people who are con soft continuists.

So uh Mm-hmm. You know, so I guess it may have been just that one particular uh Excuse me. Uh Congregation. Because, you know, I've never heard that. I've never heard the PCA come down hard as a cessationist thing.

But uh However, again, but the only reason I'm saying talking about the PCAs is because you opened that. But the thing is, though, the one I had mentioned before about the pastor being disciplined for praying in tongues, That was a A more harder core denomination. LPC, probably. And again, I'm. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, you're the one who said it, not me. But. But But yeah, they uh But it seems It seemed I'm it just stymies me. That There's so much secessionism among Reformed and even Presbyterians because The reformers in Scotland manifested things like prophecy and healing. I have a doctor.

You know, like Melville. Yeah, Melville and Knox, they both uh ministered in the gifts. I I know, I know, I have it documented. Yep. So do you think the possib it's a possib you think it's because the cessationism may be Derived from the Enlightenment and the whole anti-supernatural bent.

You know, the Enlightenment, you know, they.

Well, they did away with The excessive superstition that existed in Rome and uh Constantinople, but I kind of wonder if they threw out the baby with the bath water. Yeah, I I agree. I I think that happens and you know, even though I think Reformed theology is very good.

Sometimes I'll say, you know, Reformed theologians have gotten a doctrinal box and don't want to let them out. And so, you know, I know who you're talking about: George Wisher, John Fleming, you know, John Knox, they moved into the charismatic gifts. Audible words from God, prophecy. word of knowledge, yeah, and it's documented.

So yeah, it's like our Iron Mobile Bridge. I don't know that. That's interesting.

Okay. Yeah, Charles Spurgeon. I heard stories about him, you know. Or I read it. That Even though yeah, he was a Baptist, but I I heard stories, he uttered words of knowledge.

He'd be preaching, and then all of a sudden, he just turned to somebody in the congregation and said, You, sir, have taken a pair of gloves from your place of work. Return them immediately. That's a word of knowledge. Right. And yeah, and so I would say that's what important knowledge.

I have no problem with that. I've experienced this myself, too.

So, you know, there you go. Uh it doesn't threaten the cannon. And that's the major issue.

So I think we need to do what the Bible says, pursue spiritual gifts. Yes. That's right. That's right. Okay.

Alright. I thank you. All right, all right, God bless, brother. All right, hey, there you go. We're about out of time here.

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May the Lord bless you and by His grace, look back on your tomorrow. And Lord Willow, and we'll talk to you then. Have a great evening, no one. God bless. Another program powered by the Truth Network.