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Now let's jump in. We are mortal creatures who were created for an eternity and that's going to impact the way you live. But there's one truth we got to reckon with. Everybody wants to go to heaven. Just not right now.
Let's figure out why. On today's episode of Cliver Today. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.
I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We're here in the studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. Dr.
Shah, everybody wants to go to heaven, right? Nobody wants to die. Just not right now. Yeah, I just don't want to go right this moment. I'm not in a hurry, but I'm so happy to dream about it.
I'm going to talk about it. You know, the streets of gold, that's where Mima is. She's up there. She's singing the hymns of glory in heaven. And one of these good old days, I'm going to go see her.
But just not right now. Just not right now. And that is very indicative of how many of us think about eternity. Yes, we like the idea. We know something good is coming.
But there's also that. aspect of uh fear. that it terrifies us. How do I know? I mean, I know.
The world here, when I step out of this room, I'm going to walk down the steps, I'm in the lobby.
Okay, I know this. If I get on a train, I can go to such and such a place. I can get on a plane, I can fly here, there. I know where things are, I know where to go. Heaven.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a wonderful place. I just don't still not quite sure. There's an uneasiness about it.
You know, as much as we don't want to admit that, because it's heaven, it's wonderful, it's the presence of God, but there's an uneasiness about it because it's unfamiliar. Yeah, we've never been there. I mean, we don't know what to expect.
So there's a sense in which we're like, I don't really know how I should feel about it. This kind of sounds like condescending, and I don't mean it that way, but I think a lot of people really do think of it like the old Tom and Jerry cartoons where like there's an escalator just going up into the clouds. And I'm going to ride. I'm going to ride.
Some people do think of it like, yeah, yeah. I believe that if we have a solid biblical understanding. of heaven of eternal life, of eternity, I should say, not just eternal life, because eternal life begins now, but of eternity, I think it would not necessarily make us want to go there right now, But it wouldn't it would look Far more appealing than it does for most of us. I think you're right. Yeah.
We don't really understand eternity. Like, how can you understand eternity? Eternity as a mortal creature. I mean, like, genuinely, as a question, how do we as finite beings understand eternity? Yeah.
Well, here's a. Theologian's definition of eternity. Man was created to exist forever. In fact, as you know, that many of my definitions come from Wayne Grudem's systematic theology. Man was ex uh created to exist forever he will either exist eternally separated from God, Because of sin, Or He will be in union with God through forgiveness and salvation.
Okay. And eternally separated, let's be more specific. A place called hell or really the lake of fire. This is a real place. This is not just some abstract bodiless place of existence.
No, this is a real place. And Where there is real fire. You say, Well, isn't it darkness? Yes, God can create a fire that doesn't produce light. I mean, how hard is that to understand?
Right.
Okay. And Either you can be in that place or you can be in a place where you are in union with God. Through forgiveness and salvation. To be eternally separated from God is hell. To be eternally in union with him is eternal life.
Heaven and hell are places of eternal existence. I would add to that definition. are places of real Okay, or real places of eternal existence. The real part is very important because right now there are people who almost, I would say, Or almost espousing Kind of a Mm. Hindu Maybe even Buddhist understanding of the other side.
Like it's meta, like it's more metaphorical for not existing or something like that. Yeah, it's just like you become one with. The divine. Are you sorta? merged into kind of oblivion or nothingness.
Are there Passages that people pull that from, or that idea? Like, do they twist scripture to represent that? Or is that. False filtering its way in there. Yeah, I think it's uh because we are so biblically illiterate, and I'm I'm saying that respectfully.
I'm not trying to be hateful or condescending to our listeners, but many of us have been so biblically illiterate for so long that We have kind of ad adopted More new age-ish and Even Eastern Mystical understanding of heaven and hell rather than what the Bible from Genesis to Revelation has to say about it. I think it's interesting too because a lot of us we have this idea of eternity where it's me. And I'm there, and I'm going to be new, but it's still me with all my thoughts and all my memories. It's something that we look forward to. I think for a lot of us, it's something that probably, if we're not, if we don't know Christ, we dread.
And yet, we still don't really understand it. You know what I mean? Like, we don't really have an idea of what it's going to be. It's funny that you say that because I was talking with somebody recently and they were sharing the gospel with a friend of theirs, and their friend was like, Hey, you know, that's great for you. I don't believe in heaven.
Believe in God. And they're like, well, why not? I mean, heaven is, is. It's great. It's better than anything we can think of or imagine.
And he's like, it just sounds boring. It just sounds like, you know, forever? We're going to be there forever. They just, what are we going to do? Because they see hell as like this place with the red strobe lights going and everybody's doing the electric slide for all of eternity.
Not even that, but it's just like, oh, I'm going to be in the same place doing the same thing indefinitely. How is that not going to get boring? And there's some lot of misunderstandings about heaven and hell. The place to begin is not Start describing, even from biblical passages, what heaven and hell are all about. The place to begin is to go.
To God. See what Scripture has to say about God. And Where we begin is that God is. The judge. That's where we have to begin.
means everything comes to a point of judgment. There is no heaven or hell if there is no judgment. That's true. And if there is no judgment, there is no heaven or hell. We just keep on living, we keep on existing.
No. this world is going to a finished line. and at that finish line based on What you did in this life More specifically, what did you do with God's plan of redemption through His Son, Jesus Christ? Based on that, There is a finish line. where the judge of all the earth will decide How the next episode begins.
So maybe it's safe to say. that heaven and hell it's not it's not as though You're judged, and based on how I judge you, you go to heaven, you go to hell. But rather, heaven and hell are the summation of our judgment. Like, that's where. It's like that's the result of your judgment: how you spend eternity.
Exactly. Rather than here's one place, here's another place, you go there, you go there. Yeah, it's all based on this life, and what did you do with Jesus Christ? That's how we decide.
So let's focus more. To begin this, and it may be a couple of episodes to just cover this whole subject, this topic of eternity. The place to begin is What does it mean that God is a just God, or He is the judge.
Well, repeatedly, the Bible refers to God as the judge. I don't know. We see judges on TVs. We see judges in the courtroom. Yeah, and so many other names.
I can't even. I don't know Judge Mathis. Really? Yeah, it was one of those kind of daytime similar to Judge Judy. I remember Judge Joe Brown.
I mean, there's so many of them. It's hard to keep up with. And back in the day, I would say, like in the 90s, that was a big deal. Oh, yeah. I think in the 2000s as well, but in the 90s, it was like.
Man, they were those were Mima's shows. She loved Judge Judy. Judge Judy just retired now, by the way. Really? Yep, just recently retired.
Yep. She's done now. She's done now. She's fussing at all. She's gotten her fill of fussing at people, so she's gonna just all the delinquents in the world and all they all rejoice.
We can get away with it. Judge Judy is no more.
Well, she's still there. I mean, she's there, but she ain't not judging. She might kick you behind on the sidewalk just for free. I don't know. She seems like tight.
Well, let's look at a couple of verses. Genesis 18, 25. Shall not the judge of all the earth Do right. It's a pretty early on in the book of Genesis. Absolutely.
This is Abraham talking to God. Mm-hmm. Talking about the judgment that's about to fall upon Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain. Shall not the judge of all the earth do right? God, you are the judge of all the earth.
You're about to judge these cities for their sins. Yes, yes, those cities are sinful. They have an abomination in there. It's horrible. It's terrible.
But there are some righteous people in there. You cannot condemn them with the unrighteous. Shall not the judge of all the earth do right? So right there Abraham. Abraham going back to maybe two, three hundred years after the flood.
If you were to appeal to the timeline of history, maybe about 2100 BC, 4,000 years ago. People knew God as The judge of all the earth. Yeah, you guys. They knew that. I mean, this is the dynamic that we are the ones.
I don't know if I want to say being judged, but we're the ones standing in judgment. That's right. Yeah. Psalms, right? God's higher than we are, so he will be the one to offer judgment.
Psalm seventy five, verse seven, God is the judge. He puts down one and exalts another. Of course, it's referring to this life. In how God judges people and how He shows His favor upon some and not the other. But the whole concept of God being the judge is very clearly said.
Isaiah 30, verse 18, for the LORD is a God of justice. You know, our world is crying out for justice. Yeah. And it's funny too, because I know so many people who maybe a lot of them are Christians. Maybe some of them, maybe many of them aren't.
But they're like, no, no, no, no, no. God is a God of mercy. God is love, right? God is, and you can't send people to hell. If you're loving, right?
If you're all loving. And I think we forget verses like this where we said the Lord is a God of justice. You can't be all-merciful with no justice.
Well Justice or the judgment aspect of God's attributes is the natural outflow of God's holiness. What's the use of holiness if there are no consequences? It's like it's like that that parent who keeps threatening their child like you oh, you better or Yeah. Don't make me get up.
Well, you don't do anything. Yeah. I'm only going to give you like 12 more warnings, and then you are going to get a severe consequence. Unless that. Uh another warning.
It will be a harsh word. A stern word. A stern buddy. You got a stern voice. 15.
I'm on number 15 now. I'm done. You got about. You got about eight to ten more chances. Yeah.
Before I really get mad, and then you're in double overtime with me. I'm fixing to be sneaked, pal.
Okay. All right. I'll do it one more time.
Now, what? You're. I tell you, like, you're pushing it. You're really pushing it. My dad, I learned that.
God bless my dad. But I remember as a kid, my dad would be like, hey. I better not get off this couch. And I was like, oh man. But then I was like.
He's not going to get up. And like over my childhood, I just realized: I was like, he's not. He's not going to get off the couch. I learned if I can get through this really, really angry, loud voice, I'll be okay. I'll be fine.
Well, you know, that's how sometimes people think about God. Yeah. Now, yes, he's holy, he's the God of anger. This doesn't do anything.
So Yeah, I can do what I want to do. And I think they're also captivated by this Disney fairy tale ending. Like, at the end of the day, he's going to forgive me. He's more love than he is justice.
So, like, he might be mad at me right now, but I mean, I'm going to heaven because he's love. Yeah. And we need to understand that. Holiness is the fundamental attribute of God. Yes, he is loving, yes, he is gracious.
Yes, he's compassionate. Yes, he's merciful. But God is holy, is the hubcap, if you want to, not even the hubcap, the hub, I would say, of God's attributes. And so sin disrupts God's holiness.
Okay, sin disrupts God's holiness, and judgment sets everything right. Say that one more time. Sin disrupts God's holiness. And judgment sets everything right. Hmm.
People who don't understand judgment really don't understand holiness. Like the two. Exactly. Nor the horribleness of sin. Yeah.
God's judgment coming from his holiness. That then links the judgment of God to his mercy and his love. That's right. Well, I think that's something to keep in mind: these things are not. Things that God has to balance.
They're things that are all interconnected. They can't exist without the other. They're not independent of one another. Yeah. It's not like, all right, well, I need to come down pretty hard on this, but if I do that, I'm not so merciful, so I have to balance it.
Let me take off my justice hat and put on my mercy hat. That's not the way it works. Yeah, I like how you said that his justice is an outflowing, it's a result of his holiness, which is his fundamental attribute. Let me give you a couple of verses on this where these judgment and justice and holiness are. interconnected.
So Isaiah 5.16. But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment. And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness. I mean, you cannot connect them any more than that. No, that's it.
Judgment. Holiness? Righteousness. All connected. All these three attributes working together in harmony.
Yeah, here's another one: Psalm 50. The mighty one, God the Lord, has spoken and called the earth from the rising of the sun to its going down. Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God will shine forth. Our God shall come and shall not keep silent. You know, God is a God of judgment.
It's not just some vain threats or just the stern look. Mm-hmm. And judgment will be executed.
So let's keep reading here. Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty shall of beauty, God will shine forth, our God shall come, and shall not keep silent. A fire shall devour before him. And it shall be very tempestuous all around him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth.
that he may judge his people. means judgment begins at the house. Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Let the heavens declare his righteousness, for God himself is judged. I think a lot of Christians will find that interesting because I think of God judging the sinner, and by I, I mean like the average listener, we think of God judging the sinner, the heathen, if you will, quote unquote.
Yeah, I'm saved, so I got to pass. I'm not going to be judged, I'm saved. What do you what do you say to people like that, Dr. Shaw, when they when they read something like that where he jud God says, I'm going to judge my people? Right.
I mean, so just keep in mind, this originally was given to the people of Israel, so there is a direct application for them, the judgment of God's people. And the only way you and I can escape that judgment is that in this life we receive Jesus as our Savior. God's people and even the Gentiles before the coming of Jesus. Had had to look forward to the coming of the Promised One. You know, the seed of the promise.
Right, right. The seat of the woman who was going to come. and bruised the head of the serpent. and reverse the curse. Those who are waiting for his coming, yes.
you are safe from that judgment. Jesus came 2,000 years ago and now, and fulfilled all the promises, all the prophecies.
Now we look back to that moment. When Jesus did what was always said that he would do, give his life a ransom, A ransom Means redemption is not just some deliverance or you know Just a sign off on, okay, you're forgiven. Just say you're sorry. No redemption is ransom paid. Mm.
Apollutrosis. Right? Ransom paid. It was a Greek concept. It was a Hebrew concept.
It was in the Old Testament. And that's what Paul mentions in Ephesians chapter 1, verse 9: ransom has been paid.
Okay. So once that happens in this life, Judgment is done for us.
Okay. But there is a judgment coming. At the second coming of Christ where we will be judged for how we Use the gifts and the talents that God gave us.
So there are multiple judgments. Oh, there are definitely multiple judgments. There is a great white throne judgment.
Okay. which is coming at the end of time. That's the judgment for The lake of fire. The final judgment. We're not standing on that day of judgment.
Mm-hmm. Believers in the Son of God, Jesus Christ Whether before he came or since he came. We won't be standing on that day and be like, okay, what happens to us now?
Well, I guess we'll find out. No, sir. That part is settled. That is settled in this life. That is settled when you come forward.
And tell the pastor, hey, I want to be saved. That is settled when you talk to your youth pastor and say, or your student pastor and say, hey, can you lead me in prayer? That is settled in your Sunday school classrooms. When somebody Shares the gospel with you, and you gave your life to Jesus Christ. That's settled at that youth concert.
That's settled at that revival meeting. That is settled as you're driving down the road listening to a radio broadcast like this. or a sermon Or watching it on YouTube, or watching it on Facebook, and you hear the gospel and you give your life to Jesus Christ, that's when the judgment is executed. That now Ransom has been paid, you have been set free. Yeah.
this great white throne, ultimate final judgment. Is not for Christians. Not for believers. Gotcha. Yeah.
You know, there are two views on judgment. There's a dispensational view there that says there are three different judgments. And Judgment of the Nations.
Okay, there's a judgment of the nations. It's going to be before the millennium. And Matthew 25 talks about that. There is a judgment of the believers. How we How we served God with the gifts, the talents, and the resources He gave us.
And this judgment is known as the Bhima. Seat judgment where Jesus. is judging us. 2 Corinthians 5:10 talks about that. It's during the tribulation going on down below that this judgment happens for us.
Some people believe that it's post-tribulation. After the j tribulation period.
Okay. You know, there's some. Passages for and against. Then there is a judgment of eternal punishment of unbelievers, which is the great white throne judgment. And this one is after the millennium.
Eternal punishment of unbelievers. After the millennium.
Now, there's also, you know, there's some other issues involved we don't have time to get into. But all that is under the dispensational view of there's different judgments. Yes, yeah. And I think this there's a good case to be made for this. I lean towards this.
Okay. Then there are people who believe there's only one final judgment, it's after the millennium, Satan is loose for one last time, and then the comprehensive judgment. I just believe that based on the eternal Security of the believer. That once you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, as your King, you are eternally secure. It is done.
You don't have to stand in that line and wait, knowing in the back of your mind I'm saved, but what's going to happen? I've heard people articulate it like you're going to be on trial. And then God's going to look at you and look at all the things that you've done, good and bad and in the middle. But then he's gonna be like, oh.
Well, I see here that you were a Christian and that you're covered by my son and you have his blood applied to your account.
So you can go on, go ahead and go on in. But yeah. But. It's not like God's finding that out for the first time. It's not like God didn't know that.
So it's not, I mean, it's not a revelation at that moment that this person is actually saved.
So it does make sense that there would be different judgments at different times for different groups. Yeah, the only way it would, the only way. The only function it would have is just to keep you in fear, just to keep you out there, just like, wait, like, why would God want us to be in this one final judgment? Yeah. Well, there are people who believe that.
And and I'm sad for them because you know, because on that On that day of judgment, the great white throne judgment, There are people who are more from the Armenian view who believe that. You know? I hope I'm still saved. I hope I'm saved. Wow.
Here's the sad reality. There are people in the reform camp who believe that. I never thought about it before, but it does sort of undermine the eternal security. Like, if I'm in that judgment as well, even knowing that I'm saved. There's still going to be some terror.
Like, you know what I mean? Like, like, if you put me in a room and you say, There's going to be an earthquake. You're going to be in this room. 100% guarantee. You're going to be fine.
You're going to live. I'm still going to be terrified when that building starts shaking.
Well, that's not exactly how some of the people in the reform camp believe. They believe that their works will ultimately justify them. Mm, that's Kind of dangerous. to be the final sign off. They can disagree with me, but that's.
I know I'm pretty correct on that. Yeah, like pen to paper, that is actually what. Yes. Yes, yes, yeah. Jesus paid my penalty of sins.
He is covered. Nothing in my hand I bring. Slimp simply to the cross I cling. It's all by grace through faith. But on the day of judgment, my works will be the final piece.
So unless you're like just pretending those works will be Then why don't even say it? Yeah. But if you really believe your works will be, Then you're still not Means it's not over yet. Yeah. Means it's not eternally secure.
We're going to find out. Yeah. That's why many of the Puritans struggled with their salvation because they were not sure if they were the elect. They were not sure if they had done enough. Is that sad?
I mean, you're you're trusting. by grace through faith is Christ and Christ alone, and yet I'm not sure. Yeah. What? Yeah, that's hard to deal with because you live your entire life devoted to God.
You live your entire life doing this thing, but there's always this sense of terror that you never come over, even on your deathbed. And you just have to kinda hope. It it really I know you've said this on the show before, it really sounds more like Islam. I was just gonna say that. Yeah, yeah.
Because in Islam, for those of you who may not know, in Islam there is no assurance of salvation. In fact, that was the linchpin that finally broke loose and my dad left Islam. To become a Christian. I mean, this is, you know, my dad has since passed away. He served faithfully for 57 some years in his first and only church.
You know, he was a man of God. He, he, Yeah. preached and taught and was a college Bible college president, pastor, all that. But When he began to question his faith. which was Islam.
That was the final thing that that the straw that broke the camel's back. Proverbially speaking. Yeah. Because in Islam there is no assurance of salvation. I know there's the anecdotal understanding that Oh, if you kill so many people for jihad, whatever, you get all those virgins.
And yeah, they believe that, but that's more anecdotal. You won't find that codified in the. In the Quran, no, not in the Quran. It's a. It's sort of Extra stuff.
Yeah, yeah. But what is reality? That on the day of judgment there is a bridge. You have to walk across this bridge. And that bridge is sharper than a sword.
Finer than a human hair. walking across is walking from this life into heaven. If you fall, that is hell.
Well, there's no way I can make it. Yes, you're right. It's all in Allah's hands. And his grandfather one time was praying, and at the end of the prayer, my dad went up to him and said, Grandfather, God's going to have a very special place for you in heaven. He says, And he began to cry.
his grandfather, w which would be my great grandfather, who I never met. He began to weep. And he said, There is no guarantee that I will be in heaven. Isn't that telling that he just immediately wept? Yeah.
That he just immediately was moved and he's like, I don't know. And it's not, I don't know. And it's not an emotion that you even, it's not even a cathartic emotion. It's just fear. It's just terror.
Yeah. It's, it's just this hopelessness. Yeah. Utter hopelessness that there is no assurance. And let me tell you.
There is no assurance because there is no transaction. Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe.
So He did not come to be served, but to serve and give his life a ransom. The ransom has been paid. Hence, we can say it's paid in full. That's right. Dr.
Sha, I know we're running out of time, but I just don't want to end this episode without offering somebody out there a chance of making their eternity worth it. Very simple. Yes. Very simple. Give your life to Christ today.
Amen. He has done it all. Receive him by faith that he is God's Son, died on the cross for your sins, was buried, but rose again the third day, and he's alive today. He's alive. Through the eyes of faith, the Holy Spirit will help you see.
Come to him and be saved. That's right. Amen. That's the hope that we cling to. That's the hope of Christianity.
We're going to continue to discuss that on tomorrow's episode. If today's episode was impactful for you, write into the show and let us know what you got from it. And make sure that you're following along on all of our social media, our podcasting platforms. You can share these episodes with your friends and family, people in your life who need the hope of the gospel, the hope of eternity that Jesus offers us. That's right.
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