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Welcome to If Not Forgot. Stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. Hey, this is Mike Zwick from If Not For God with Mike Zwick. We have a show for you today.
We've got a guy by the name of Mike Schwartz. Shreve. And Mike Shreve was actually a former Catholic, grew up in the Catholic Church. got into yoga. And then became radically born again in his early 20s.
And it was an amazing story. But if you're on the website right now, if you're on the web, go to twocatholicswithlove.org. And Mike Shreve, what was it like? for you growing up as a c growing up as a Catholic.
Well, it was a very disciplined life. My family was very committed. to all of the rituals and traditions and beliefs of the Catholic Church. And So It was very predictable. Church was very predictable.
Because when you went to church, there were certain times to sit, certain times to stand, certain times to kneel. And the whole church service was centered around. the moment where communion would take place. And that was the high point of what is called the mass. And so that was a weekly occurrence, three or four times a week at one point, because I became an altar boy.
And I was at church several times a week. And thankfully, I never met any priest. Who were a bad influence. Or that had some perversity in their lives. Thank God the priests I served under as an altar boy were all really kind, gentle.
Consecrated individuals that were, in all honesty, they were great role models of Christ-likeness. in their behavior. But none of them, unfortunately, ever taught me how to be born again. Because that's just not a dominant theme in Catholicism. In fact, it's assigned differently than it would be in Protestantism usually Uh it's assigned to baptism.
They say that when you're sprinkled as a child, that's when you're born again. And of course, I don't believe that. I believe you have to be consciously aware of inviting the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart and into your life to be Lord of your life. to have that spiritual rebirth. But maybe we can get into that as we progress about the difference between Catholicism.
and authentic biblical Christianity and start out maybe with infant baptism.
Well, yeah, and the Catholics aren't the only church that does infant baptism. I believe the Methodists do that, many of the Presbyterians as well. But I remember, you know, when I studied some of the Anabaptists, what they realized is that, hey, this is something that you actually have to make a conscious decision of when you become of age. You have to choose. The Bible even says, choose you this day whom you shall serve.
But as you were saying, the Catholics baptize the children when they're babies, and they believe. Does that save you? Is that what they say?
Well, actually they believe that seven things happen when that little baby is sprinkled. I hope I can remember all seven off the top of my head. Supposedly, according to Catholic doctrine, That baby is born again. that baby receives the gift of eternal life. That baby receives a cleansing.
of original sin. Original sin is purged. that baby becomes a member of the church. That baby becomes a new creation in Christ. And uh two other things on top of that supposedly happened when that child is sprinkled.
However, as you just said, I disagree with that.
Now, even though I agree with the fact that parents want to dedicate their children to God. There's nothing wrong with baby dedication. But The Bible is very clear that baptism has to be preceded with a conscious realization of of the meaning of baptism On the day of Pentecost, the beginning of the church. Peter stood up and preached and said, Repent and be baptized. Every one of you, in the name of Jesus, for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Oh, that's that's the sixth thing that supposedly happens when that Child that infant is sprinkled, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and number seven, the gift of salvation. Which Again, I no longer believe it. Then also I think the biggest Proof. is in Acts chapter 16. where Paul Not Paul, I'm sorry, we're Philip.
joined himself to the chariot of an Ethiopian eunuch. and witness to him about Christianity. Starting with Isaiah 53. And then the eunuch said, See, here is water. What does hinder me?
from being baptized. And Philip said, and this is so important. If you believe with all your heart. you can be baptized. And so he made it a prerequisite.
to have a true and sincere Believe. in Jesus' position as the Messiah. as the Christ. before baptism. And so that's what I believe is necessary.
And I understand the motivation. Uh Because Some children die before they reach the age of being able to consciously accept the Lord into their lives. out of worry, out of concern. that that child's soul be taken care of eternally. I believe they've kind of skirted some of these issues in order to supposedly make that child's salvation secure.
But I believe God Oh. God has a way of taking care of that. He does. And so, you know, there are so many people who say that there are differences between Catholicism and being a born-again Christian. Are there also some similarities as well?
Well, of course we all agree that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity. And both Protestants and Catholics agree that Jesus rose from the dead victoriously. And Protestants and Catholics agree that Jesus is coming back physically, bodily, and gloriously. at the second return of Christ. And we all agree that we must repent of our sins and live according to a a biblical commitment to holiness and righteousness.
And forgive me for the sound of a mower in the background.
Somebody just started mowing very close to where I'm sitting. Um So there are areas of commonality. But there's some areas of real pronounced difference. between Catholic doctrine, rituals, traditions and beliefs.
However, um There's a reason that Catholics feel that it's not always necessary To be biblically based in your beliefs. Because They have something called the three legs. of Catholicism.
Well it's also called the three pillars. of Catholicism.
And that is Number one, Sacred Scripture. And we can all agree on that. that sacred scripture has got to be the basis for our belief system. And then number two. Is sacred tradition.
And so Catholics believe that Even if things are not necessarily traceable to the Bible, if it's a part of sacred tradition, it's persisted for centuries. in the Catholic Church is an acceptable thing. to absorb into your belief system. And then the third pillar of Catholicism is called the Magisterium. And the word magisterium is a word for the leadership of the church, all the bishops.
across throughout the world. And of course, under the headship of the Pope, When they agree together concerning faith and morals, when they agree together concerning certain doctrines, traditions, and rituals. Even if it's not necessarily found in the Bible, if the magisterium decides that it is. An authoritative thing that should be embraced by all Catholics, that's acceptable.
Now you and I would differ with that. That If it's not in the Bible, we're not going to absorb it into our belief system. But that's not so with Catholicism. And uh I've discussed this with Catholics before, and I don't like the word argue or debate because I think the things of God are so holy. We should discuss them in humility and love for each other.
But never descend into an argumentative kind of attitude. But I I've discussed these things with Catholics before, and the reason they believe That it's fully acceptable to base a tradition or to base a belief. And On uh tradition. is b because that's how the early church was kept stable for almost four centuries. is the traditions of the Forefathers of Christianity, Peter, James, John, the early apostles, were carried on.
through oral tradition. And they didn't have the Word of God. And my response to that is they did have. The Pauline epistles, and they did have the Gospels. They may not have all been compiled into one book until the end of the third century.
the book we know as the Bible, but they still had those documents. that they based Their belief system on. And so, even though much was carried on by virtue of oral tradition, it still had. A biblical basis in the sense that it was based on the Gospels and the Epistles. Yeah.
You know, and and so one of the things that I think a lot of Protestants will discuss is they'll say, well, the Catholics, you guys pray to Mary, and sometimes they'll I've seen some pushback back and forth online about that. But I mean, you were actually a Catholic. Do Catholics actually pray to Mary? Yes, they do, and they differentiate between praying and worshiping. Any Catholic will tell you that worship belongs only to God.
but that prayer is simply communication. And they'll cite certain passages of scripture where uh the word pray means To ask or to request or to communicate in the older versions of the Bible, like the King James Version. Uh But I still believe it's wrong, and I have a number of reasons for believing it's wrong. Uh but I think the strongest reason Is Well, first of all, there's one God and one mediator between God and men. But if you quote that to a Catholic, they'll say, Well, then you should never ask for a fellow Christian.
to pray for you. Because Uh Then you're transgressing against that scripture that says there's just one God and one mediator between God and men. There's a huge difference between asking a fellow Christian, one person asking one other person. To pray in their behalf, and what happens with Mary? Because if just one tenth just one tenth of all Catholics prayed one prayer to Mary.
A day. That doesn't sound too overwhelming, does it? But when you get the numbers together, it is. Because there's 1.3 billion Catholics in the world. One-tenth of that is 130 million if.
130 million Catholics prayed one time to Mary every day. You divide that by 1,440. The number of minutes in a day and Mary is getting over 90,000 communications. from different people every minute. And as soon as that 60 seconds is up, another wave of over 90,000 people are communicating to her.
And most people pray. to the saints or pray to Mary. With a specific problem in mind, it involves a specific person or persons. and a specific place.
So Mary would have to be cognizant of that. Therefore, she would have to be omniscient. and omnipresent. In order to be aware of over 90,000 people and 90,000 places at one time.
Well, only God is omnipresent. Only God is on this sin. and to attribute that ability to Mary is to attribute godlikeness to her, where she has abilities that should only be assigned to God. Yeah, and so that's the part with Mary, but then Catholics also pray to the saints, is that right? That's right.
That's correct. And and that in itself is a nonbiblical approach. Because In the Bible, all believers are saints. All believers who have been born again, all believers. who are washed in the blood.
Well, the word Saint simply means to be sanctified. And to be sanctified means to be cleansed from sin. And there's a number of means. By which God sanctifies us. He sanctifies us by the blood.
He sanctifies us by the Word of God. He sanctifies us by the name of Jesus and the Spirit of God. There's a number of different means by which God cleanses us. and separates us unto himself. And whenever you are sanctified, you become a saint.
That's the very connection between the two words. And the word saint. Or the word sanctified means to be number one, cleansed from the defilement of sin, number two, made holy by God. And number three, separated unto his divine purpose.
So it has a threefold meaning. And every Christian is born again from the moment the blood of Jesus washes a person's heart clean, that person is born again and that person becomes a saint. 1 Corinthians chapter 1, verse 3. To those who are called to be saints, it says, to all those that were in the Corinthian church. And over and over again, Paul would address the entire church.
and reference all of them as being saints.
So Uh To differentiate. And to say that there's an elite group of saints in heaven that have the power to intercede. That have the power to pray in the behalf of people, to petition the Father in the behalf of people, is a distortion of Scripture. And according to Catholic doctrine, The Pope has to be the person to canonize a saint. And there's a whole process that that Uh Saint supposed quote-unquote saint has to go through in order to be recognized or canonized as a saint.
And it involves. Two miracles. must be worked post hum Uh posthumously. Uh where After that person dies, the people petitioning that person We pray in their behalf. Um must verify that at least two miracles have been accomplished for that person to be given the status of being a saint in the Catholic Church.
And there's I think around 10,000 recognize saints in Catholicism. And and it's all non-biblical. It's all the whole process of canonization is non-biblical. The whole idea of praying to saints, because once again, there's a huge difference between me asking you, Mike, to pray for me, because we're just communicating between ourselves. and thousands of people around the world communicating to the same saint.
simultaneously. That would demand that that saint be on a much different level. in order to process that much information. And so there's many other reasons. I've got a book called The Beliefs of the Catholic Church, and the subtitle is 25 Questions Comparing Doctrines, Practices, and Traditions to.
of scripture, and I go into great depth on all of these issues. And on the website to Catholicswithlove.org, I've got numerous articles in both English and Spanish that go into these. concepts that a lot of people are unfamiliar with. Yeah, and you know, the Bible says that it is given to a man once to die and then the judgment. And you see several instances in the Bible where Jesus talks about heaven, especially Revelation 21 and 22.
And there's also instances where it talks about people being in hell, but Catholics believe in something called purgatory. Right. And the reason They believe in purgatory.
Well, actually, there's a number of reasons. They reference a couple of passages. in books that are not in the Protestant Bible. in order to support their position. But they also reference a passage of scripture where Paul talked about Something that can be interpreted loosely as meaning.
Uh what they would term purgatory. But When you really get into the detail of what he was saying, it has nothing to do with purgatory. And it's 1 Corinthians chapter 3. beginning with Versalett. Where Paul says, No other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
So, this is not talking to the general populace of the world. This is talking to those. Then they're not just uh church-going people that are not committed either. is talking to people who have truly laid Jesus as the foundation of their lives. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now, If anyone builds on this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and straw, each one's work will become clear.
Now watch this next statement. For the day, capital letter D, the day will declare it because it will be revealed by fire and the fire will test each one's work. of what sort it is. And if anyone's work, which he has built on it, endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss.
but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire Catholics refer to this passage of scripture versus uh 10 through 15 as us or 11 through 15 of first corinthians chapter 3 as support for the idea of purgatory. because it talks about our works being tested by fire. But it does not say that will happen over hundreds. or thousands. for tens of thousands of years in some fiery place of torment.
It says for the day. will declare it. What day is being referenced? I believe with all of my heart it's talking about the day of the coming of the Lord. Because the Bible says when he comes, he'll come with flaming fire.
Fire. And he will expose the root motives of all that we've ever said or done. And he will determine in a moment Who is the part of his Church. and who is not a part of this church. And our works will be tested by the fire of God that will illuminate everything.
It has nothing to do with the idea of some kind of temporary torment. In a hell-like place that is really only reserved for Catholics because non-Catholics don't go to purgatory. It's only because, according to Catholic doctrine, if you commit a mortal sin. and it's not properly confessed to a priest. And if you don't go through the Catholic system in order to be forgiven of your sins, then that mortal sin will send you to hell forever.
And so Purgatory is primarily for Catholics. And that's not what Jesus taught. Jesus said, well, the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in Paul's teaching. And and yes, Jesus. bore our sins in his own body on the tree.
But he bore our sorrows, he bore our griefs, he he took and paid the price. for the terrible transgressions that we have committed. And we don't have to somehow work it out by our own personal suffering in order to In order to qualify for heaven, the blood of Jesus is what qualifies us for heaven. And I could go into a lot more detail, but that's basically, I think, one of the strongest proofs against purgatory and against indulgences, because indulgences are an invention of the Catholic Church. They didn't come around until a thousand years after the birth of the church.
And indulgences are things that you can do in order to chip away at the time you spend in purgatory. And there there's nothing biblical about that. No, not at all. And so, you know, what what people if somebody's a Catholic right now and they're listening, because we do have Catholics who listen to this show and they've heard everything that you've said, where would you start them? I mean, what would you tell them?
I mean, would you, what would you tell them to do?
Well, I would urge them to go to John chapter 3. And the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus. where he told Nicodemus, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, which means to comprehend it. And he said, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, He cannot enter the kingdom of God. No one ever told me how to be born again.
Jesus said, Marvel not that I said unto you, you must be born again. And in Catholic doctrine, They teach that it happens coincidental with water baptism, whether it's an adult being sprinkled or a baby being sprinkled, they associate baptism with spiritual rebirth because of, I believe, a misinterpretation of that Statement Jesus made to Nicodemus, he said, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom.
So they associate that idea of water with baptism. But Jesus qualified that statement in the next line. He then said, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said to you, you must be born again. Being born of the water is what we call now.
It's an idiom. of speech. It's what we now say Uh the breaking of the water means The breaking of the water is when the amniotic sac breaks and the amniotic fluid pours out. At childbirth. And So that was a way of describing childbirth, being born in the water.
and being born of the Spirit. In other words, Jesus is saying you've got to be born into this world as a natural human being to face the things in this world that are probationary, that pest us. and test our commitment to him. And then we must be born again. And I would uh show people the various scriptures That teaches how we can have this encounter, this spiritual rebirth.
I guess the strongest one is in Ephesians 3 that says, Christ will dwell in your heart by faith. Ephesians 3:17. Christ will dwell in your heart by faith. There's people that say we should not invite the Lord Jesus into our heart. But How can you express faith unless it's in the form of an invitation?
And therefore, I teach people that you should say, Lord, I believe you're coming into my heart. I receive you into my heart. Be Lord of my life. And then, of course, Romans 10, verses 8 through 10 say, if a person confesses with his lips the Lord Jesus and believes in his heart that Christ is risen from the dead, he shall be saved. For with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation, and with the heart, man believes unto righteousness.
So that uh supply has some of the Various Scriptural uh passages that all link together to show what a born-again experience is and how to have that experience. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So I just urge Catholics, even if you disagree with me on some of these other issues, the main issue is. is being born again. The main issue is knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ comes into your heart and knowing that the Spirit of God dwells inside of you. And that's usually a good way of getting over the hump Of disagreements on doctrine. And as because we all agree that we need God, we want God.
We want to have a personal relationship with God. And that's what spiritual rebirth affects. Absolutely, and as we're running out of time, if people want to check out more of this, this is Mike Shreve, S-H-R-E-V-E. He's been on Sid Roth several times, CBN, TBN, TCT. But the websites that you may want to go to are tocatholicswithlove.org and the true light.net.
And you can hear a lot more from where this is coming from. Definitely something interesting to look at. And if you're a Catholic, you must be born again.
So, Mike, I want to thank you for coming on the show today.
Well, it's been a joy, and I really appreciate the opportunity. Absolutely. If not for God. All right, for my YouTube channel. If not for God with mighty's wit Just like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell.
So, you'll be alerted when we have our next video. This is the Truth Network. Mm-hmm.
