Limping Heavenward

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We talk often about suffering and grief on Hope in the Morning, but when suffering is chronic and affects every area of a person's life, endurance becomes a real challenge. We're called to run our race with endurance, but what if we find ourselves unable to run? What if all we can do is limp heavenward? Joining me today is Carrie Hahn, the author of Limping Heavenward. Thank you for joining me today, Carrie.

Thanks so much for having me. I want to start off by asking you why you felt that a book on chronic and comprehensive suffering was needed. Yeah, when I was going through the Acute years of my own experience. I've always been a big reader, so books have always been a way that I learn and a discipleship tool.

So I was reading a lot of good Christian books on suffering during that time. And I just found myself getting frustrated as I was reading them because they seem to. Not really be addressing the particular kind of suffering that I was experiencing. And at the time, I couldn't even have articulated how it was different. It was only much later on, and in retrospect.

But as I was reading them, they seemed to assume that there was just kind of one big thing going on in a person's life and that the other parts of life were remaining relatively stable. Or that what they were going through was a season that you just kind of had to get through and then it'd be in the rear view mirror and you would move on with life pretty much the way that it was before. I think another component, too, is they didn't necessarily tackle. issues of Really struggling to hold on to your faith in the Lord, like just a real battle to. Hold on to the beliefs that you've always held.

And so, um, As I thought about what kind of book I would want to write and was thinking about these things, this concept came to me. Of, oh, I think the word I'm looking for of what I experienced was maybe comprehensive suffering. And then obviously, people are familiar with what chronic is, but comprehensive has to do with. What do you do with suffering that kind of tears down all the major pillars of your life? And then what do you do when?

Things maybe aren't gonna change. And it's not just a season, and it's more of this is a new normal that I need to learn how to live with. And so I thought, hmm, maybe that's an area of suffering that hasn't been addressed as much.

So my goal was to try to help people who identify with that experience of either comprehensive suffering, chronic suffering, or both. And serve those people with some of the specific questions and struggles that can be faced in that area that may not be as relevant in more garden variety suffering, if that makes sense. Yeah, you know, I read the other day that roughly 24% of Americans suffer with some sort of chronic pain. And you know, as you were mentioning, when you have chronic pain, I think oftentimes it does become sort of a comprehensive pain because it limits what you can do, it limits where you can go, it really kind of changes your personality in some regards because that's. that's forefront on your mind is how am I gonna get through this event?

How am I gonna get through this day? How am I gonna get through the night? How am I gonna sleep when I'm in this chronic pain? And it does kind of overtake every aspect. And you had said at one point in your book, you said that someone.

Who experiences this type of suffering? You described it as sitting amid the ruins of a shattered life with nothing but broken pieces. Chaos and confusion all around. And as you mentioned, there's not a whole lot of resources out there that deal with this particular type of suffering. And so, how would you say that the church as a whole can support people who are experiencing these kinds of feelings in their chronic and comprehensive suffering?

Yeah, um I'll give a caveat that everyone's different.

So I don't want to assume that the things that would be most meaningful to me would necessarily be the most meaningful to everyone else.

So these are broad principles that I think most people will be able to identify with. I do just want to bring that caveat because it is helpful as you're dealing with. Individual people, knowing them specifically and what's helpful to them, because maybe what's helpful to me might be a little bit different from what's helpful to you or somebody else. Or even what's helpful to us at one point in time is different than what's helpful maybe next week. And so, with those caveats, I will say that one thing.

Is just genuine, meaningful presence and friendship.

Something that I have found is That the types of suffering that I have been through and I'm still going through actually isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is being alone in that suffering and feeling like you. don't have anyone walking alongside of you. Um, and unfortunately, this is sometimes the thing that people are worst at because genuine, meaningful presence. Takes time, right?

And People tend to have busy schedules or not even Necessarily, maybe leave margins, so to speak, to love people. I'm going to leave some empty time in my schedule because something will come up and I want to be available to help someone. I think we don't necessarily think about that.

So, when the schedule is already packed, it's really difficult to have a genuine, meaningful presence. I do think that's one of the most important things. I think it's especially helpful. If that can be an embodied friendship and presence, like actually physically being able to sit with someone. The long-distance friends can still be a huge encouragement.

I know for me, I. For whatever reason, have not been able to. establish a lot of In-person relationships after having to uproot life and moving somewhere else.

So, long distance friends have been a huge blessing. And I think people in that situation who feel like Oh, I can't really do as much. I'm not there. It does mean a lot when they. Call when they say, Hey, do you want to do a FaceTime or even something physical like sending a card or sending a little gift?

It just really helps suffering people know that they're not forgotten because when you're at home, kind of doing it by yourself. The world is going on out there without you. And you do kind of wonder, like, does anyone remember me? Like everyone's just going about their business. And I kind of feel like I don't even know if I'm remembered anymore.

And so, those acts of care can really. encourage people, just letting them know. As unseen as they feel or are, that they're not forgotten. I think practical help can be huge for a lot of people.

So there's like a friendship, fellowship side of things, but then there's also just a real practical help side of things. Do they need transportation to get to church? Because, for whatever reason, they can't transport themselves. Do they need something from the store? Are they unemployed?

Maybe they need help with networking and getting a job, or they need some financial assistance.

So there's the practical help as well. Um And a last thing that I would say, and I'm sure we'll talk about this more. I think it's very helpful to suffering people if we are willing to hear hard things and enter into weeping with them instead of trying to force them to rejoice. Yeah, I think that's a great way that you put that. And also for those that have not yet read your book, which I would highly recommend, I'm going to show a picture of it here.

It's called Limping Heavenward. One of the reasons, you know, you had mentioned that you found yourself in a season where you really didn't have a lot of in-person friends after you had moved. And what people may not know if they haven't read your book is that you had to move because of your chronic illness. And that's not unusual because a lot of people either have to move to be closer to family who can help care for them or to be closer to the medical help that they need. And so a lot of people that face chronic illness are facing that compounded heartache of really starting fresh with these relationships in the hardest season that it could possibly be to start fresh because you're not feeling your best.

You can't get out and just go do all the activities that you would have done before. And You know, one of the other things I want to touch on a little bit is the fact that you, you're a biblical counselor. And we're correct me if I'm wrong, but you were a biblical counselor before you became ill. Is that correct? That's correct.

Yeah. Not full time, but had the education and was using it in ministry. Yeah. And as biblical counselors and even those of us that are really like that have grown up in good solid churches, I think our go-to mindset is that fix-it mindset. Like you were just talking about.

Not avoiding per se, but not making that the end all, you know? And so as someone that was involved in counseling before. How has facing chronic and comprehensive illness yourself. How has that changed some of your thinking surrounding biblical counseling. That's a great question.

I think you're absolutely right. I think there are some circles where. We really like to have very clear answers and solutions. To everything, and we would like for every counseling issue to be dealt with in six to eight weeks. And But life is a lot.

Messier than that. And I think we can really mishandle a lot of people, not even intending to. When We're not willing to really sit down and see each person as an individual rather than a program or a script that we're running them through, if that makes sense. And that takes. The ability to listen, like really listen, not just hear someone and be waiting with the response that you're going to tell them no matter what they say, but actually listening.

And in some sense, really entering into their emotional landscape with them.

Sometimes we kind of put up too much distance there and and maybe that can be From good motives, maybe from bad motives, maybe a combination of both, but. I think scripture is pretty clear in terms of how we care for each other. It literally says to weep with those who weep. That is really. Kind of climbing into or descending down into the pit with someone.

Not that we become overwhelmed in those emotions, but that we actually do take the time to feel with them and weep with them. And I think sometimes we assume that what's going to help other people. Having an answer. But uh it's it's We don't forget things when we're in suffering. We're just dealing with a lot of grief and pain that we need people to acknowledge along with us.

And so it's not that we all of a sudden. Develop biblical amnesia, and other people just need to tell us what scripture says. We know that on some level, we haven't forgotten that. It's just a hard thing, and scripture and the Lord are clear that the appropriate response to that is to lament and mourn for the things that aren't as they should be, and so. I have come to see that as a very important part of.

Being a Christian on a basic level, but also being a biblical counselor or coming alongside other people. I'm not primarily here to give other people answers, though we do share scripture with people as it's helpful and appropriate. But there is an actual emotional component of that where we just lament the loss with them, and it's not necessarily. Our job to tell someone whether they're joyful enough. Or content enough, or trusting in the Lord enough, if that makes sense.

Yeah, and I'm reminded. In Hebrews, you know, it talks about how we don't have a great high priest who can't sympathize with our weaknesses. Christ came to earth in human form. Partly so he could sympathize with our weaknesses. And when we are willing to sit with one another in those ashes and lament, actually.

Sit there and as you were kind of saying, be able to empathize with those people. Try to put yourself in their shoes and think, What would my heart need right now if I was in this? Most likely, they need a listening ear. They need a calm presence and someone that's willing to just be still and sit with them like Job's friends did in the beginning, right? Before they started trying to give all these answers and became, as you talk about in your book, became miserable comforters.

So when we come back from the break, we're going to talk about not only the emotions that can surround chronic and comprehensive suffering, but we're going to talk about what it means to be a miserable comforter and how we can avoid being one of those.

So join us again in just a moment on Hope in the Morning. Have you ever struggled to comfort a grieving friend? John 11, 35 says, Jesus wept. When Jesus was told by Mary and Martha that their brother Lazarus had died, Jesus wept. Today on Hope in the Morning, we invite you to learn what it looks like to weep with those who weep.

Learn what it means to sit in the ashes and be encouraged that even in our morning, there's hope. His name is Jesus. Visit hopeinthemorning.org to learn more. Hope in the Morning allows you to lean into the suffering of others and helps equip you to purposefully mourn with and meaningfully minister to those suffering in your midst. May these testimonies cause you to see our God with fresh and thankful eyes.

And may you seek to be His hands and feet to every wearying heart. Visit hopeinthemorning.org to learn how you can partner with us in ministry. John thirteen thirty five says. By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another. Do you know how to best love and serve your hurting brother or sister in Christ?

Listen to Hope in the Morning and be equipped to offer the hope of Jesus to every hurting heart. To learn more or to partner with our ministry, visit us at hopeinthemorning.org. Welcome back to Hope in the Morning. I am joined today with Carrie Hahn, and we are talking about her book, Limping Heavenward, and what it looks like to not only suffer comprehensive and chronic suffering, but what it looks like to actually be the hands and feet of Christ to those who are suffering that. What can we do to not be a miserable comforter?

And I'm going to start off by reading this poem that we have in our book, Hope in the Morning, and it's entitled Hope, and it says this. Let me sit with you in the ashes, and grieve with you in sorrow, As your heart mourns the loss of all the dreams you held for to morrow. Cry upon my shoulder, and let me bear your pain, until your heart is strengthened so you can rise again. And when the morning comes, please take my outstretched hand, Look up at my face, and find courage as you stand. I will replace all your tears with joy, and give you grace and peace to cope.

and I will fill all your to morrows with the sweetest gift of hope. And the verse that I have tied to that poem is Psalm 119, verse 114. And it says, You are my hiding place and my shield. I hope in your word. These are the kind of words that we want to use to comfort one another.

We want to be Christ-like in that we can be. A shield for people in their suffering. We can be a refuge for them rather than feeling like. They have to have it. Altogether, they have to have every right answer to their suffering.

Sit with them and suffer alongside them. Be those hands and feet of Christ.

So, Carrie, talking about the chapter that you have in here called Miserable Comforters. What are those? Yeah, we could talk about this for quite a while. At a basic level, and then we'll drill down into some of the particulars in the book. At a basic level, we could say a miserable comforter is someone who makes another person's suffering heavier rather than lighter.

We could also say miserable comforters tend to prioritize something other. Than comfort, presence, and practical help when they interact with sufferers. And oftentimes, a miserable comforter will almost think that it's their job to shut down a sufferer's negative emotions or hard questions about God, as though it was this big danger path that they needed to block them from going down rather than engaging with the Lord and with others honestly.

So, in the book, I go through as I was thinking about. The experiences that I've had with miserable comforters, and then just need to acknowledge that I've been one too, because we've all at various times been one. And I think we just need to acknowledge. This is all of us so that we can all grow in the ways that we need to. I kind of categorize them into five areas, and it just happened to work out that they all started with A.

So these are the five A's of miserable comforters. There may be more, but I think most responses that we get from people, we could kind of. shuffle into one of these five. The first one is accusation.

So, a miserable comforter will often accuse a sufferer. And we're all pretty familiar with this because that's primarily what Job's. Miserable comforters were doing all throughout the middle of the book, with the exception of the time that they sat with him in silence. And so, this is when someone communicates to a sufferer that their suffering must be directly correlated to their own personal sin. Or it can also be when the miserable comforter admonishes the sufferer for not responding to their suffering in the way that the miserable comforter thinks is most appropriate, or the way that the miserable comforter themselves is most comfortable with.

So I kind of see this one as a violation of 1 Thessalonians 5, where it talks about you admonish the idle and unruly. With the faint-hearted, you encourage them. With the weak, you help them. And miserable comforters who accuse kind of see everyone as fear game for admonishment, which may be really. biblically inappropriate to what's going on with that person.

Mm-hmm. Has to do with speaking aphorisms. This is kind of where a miserable comforter will. Give a sound bite of scripture. And a lot of times it's not an indicative, it's not a comfort of scripture, it's an imperative.

It's something that the sufferer needs to be doing or needs to be doing better. And I think miserable comforters do this one maybe to try to solve everything immediately, as though telling someone, well, you just need to trust in the Lord, or you just need to be more content in your circumstances, or you need to be rejoicing right now. Um Is somehow going to be a helpful thing. And I'm not sure anyone's ever been super encouraged by someone doing that with them when they're suffering. Um In this one, I think this is a violation of God's command to weep with those who weep.

Again, it doesn't say. Force those who are weeping to rejoice with you because it makes you feel more comfortable. It says to weep with those who weep. Um The third one, and I would say those first two, they're kind of almost like. More attack kind of responses, if you will.

And then the other three are a little bit more. Neglect kind of responses. And so, avoidance is when people who know about a person's suffering, maybe just kind of hold themselves at arm's length. They're maybe too scared to get involved because they think they're going to do or say something wrong.

So, they just don't do anything, which isn't helpful either. Avoidance can also be from selfishness. People just don't want to. Take the time and physical and emotional energy to. to be there in the midst of someone else's grief and pain.

It's obviously not a happy, easy place to be. And I think that sometimes for selfish or comfort seeking reasons, miserable comforters do that. Abandonment is the fourth one. It's kind of the. The fully grown fruit of avoidance, where someone actually just kind of discontinues the relationship.

If they had a friendship with the sufferer, before things really started going bad and maybe It's avoidance for a while. You don't talk as much. And then eventually there comes a point where it's like, That person just never reaches out anymore. And it's for the sufferer, it's that experience of. Losing a friendship, which is really painful, and it's an awkward place to be to try to get into.

Do you do you? Do you not want to be my friend anymore? Did I do something wrong? And so it can be really confusing for sufferers when people pull away like that. And the last one is apathy.

And we've already spoken about this a bit, but this is just where people. Really refuse to enter into the grief and pain of another person's situation, and they don't come alongside in ways that are life-giving and helpful. And when I think about this one in scripture, the The huge story that comes to mind is Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan and how. The priest and the Levite, you know, the ones that we would expect to be the most godly and mature ones to come alongside a sufferer. Actually, they show themselves to least represent the heart of God.

And it's the Samaritan who's the one who practically steps in. And provides help. And so, That's that's that's a lot in terms of an answer to your question because there's a lot of ways that we can be miserable comforters. But those are some of the angles of what that can look like. I think that's a great answer to the question, actually, because, as you said, at some point in time, we've all fallen into one of those categories, right?

Of being a miserable comforter. And so, part of being a believer, a big part of being a believer, is having the humility to really check our own hearts and our own motives and. Our goal in life is constantly to be pursuing Christ-likeness, right? And so we want to see how Christ demonstrates compassion? How did he weep with the suffering?

You see stories like that over and over when he was here in the flesh as Jesus. And, you know, I think one of the other important things, you know, we don't have a whole lot of time left here, but I think one of the things that's important for our listeners to know too is that spiritual maturity does play a part in our ability to effectively minister to people that are suffering because again, You have to have humility. You have to do exactly what you had said, which I think is great advice, which is leave some space in our schedules. It's not It's not godly for us to become Marthas, right? Busy all the time, constantly saying, Lord, look at all that I'm doing, look at all that I'm accomplishing.

But are we choosing the best thing? Are we choosing to sit at the feet of Christ, take others to the feet of Christ, and minister to them in their sorrow? We cannot do that if we are so busy that all we can think about is our own schedule and our own agenda, leaving space to serve. I think that is a great takeaway. I would say, if people take one thing away from this episode, Leave space to serve those that are in need.

Donnie Erickson Tata, you know, she is someone that she's actually lived as a quadriplegic for over 55 years now, and she's also survived stage three cancer. And she said that both of those conditions pale in comparison to living with chronic pain. She said that chronic pain can erode joy like acid, warp your personality, and rob you of the ability to tackle even the smallest tasks. And she also says that it can make you question God and His power, which you mentioned a little bit, and even being being willing to sit with people and Talk about the hard things. Ask the hard questions.

God is not such a small God that he can't handle our questions. He did with Job. You see that. I mean, what a beautiful thing that the Lord led us into Job's circumstances where we can really see the mind and heart of God in our suffering. But also one of the things she says, and we're going to talk about this more as we go into the podcast area of the show, but she talks about how disability or chronic pain can create a backdrop for the gospel to be magnified through patience, perseverance, endurance, and an uncomplaining spirit.

And one of the things that you had talked about is you had said that there are certain ways that only sufferers, let's say you had said, that there's a story that only sufferers can truly tell. And so when we come into the podcast portion of this, we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about. What is the story that only sufferers can tell? And how can our suffering magnify the goodness of God.

Even as we face some of our worst days here, and as you've mentioned, Carrie, it can be a worse day followed by a worse day, followed by a worse day. it can seem unrelenting. And never ending.

So, we're going to continue talking about how do we minister and how can we be encouraged if you find yourself in a season, not even, well, not a season, like you were saying, not a season. If you find yourself in a situation where you are, Now realizing that you're going to live a life of chronic and comprehensive suffering. How can we turn our sorrow into praise? What does that look like? As we continue on here, as I mentioned earlier, you talk about how there's a story that only sufferers can tell.

What is that story? Yeah, this is something that It took me a really long time to try to understand and work through because I think we're so used to thinking of. Our value to God and how we glorify God being those big ways that we're out there in the world and in the church, whether it's through our jobs or ministry or missions. It's the very Loud, external, energetic ways of glorifying God, if that makes sense. And when you're Sitting home alone most of your days, you can really start to wonder.

Not only what's the point of my life and why does God have this for me, but. How do I even glorify him? I can't go out and do anything. I can't teach a Bible study. I can't go on a mission trip.

I can't evangelize to the people in my workplace. And so over time, and I've been very helped by The Ministry of Johnny Erickson Tata, and she talks about this in one of her books that really got me thinking. And so the story that sufferers can tell, and that only sufferers can tell. Is that God is still worthy of my worship and trust and praise? Even when nothing is going well in my life, and I'm not really receiving.

The kinds of temporal gifts and common graces in my life. as much as the average person out there might be. I think, you know, we never really know. how genuine our worship of God is. If He's giving us all these wonderful gifts.

It's just it's hard to know. And that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with us. It's just genuinely hard to know when we're receiving a lot of things from his hand. But when it seems like his hand closes, so to speak, And a lot of the joys in our life are taken away and not restored. that's when we really find out um Whether we worship the Lord for who he is or for what he gives.

And I've struggled a lot with this, and I would say that I still do. Um I don't think it's a kind of one and done situation. But Well, let me actually go a different direction with this.

Something else, too, that I've had to think about a lot in this is like, okay, well, I can still, okay, I can still glorify God through. My endurance, but Nobody can see that. Like, does it really matter if I'm not one of those people who, let's say, I have cancer and I'm being treated in the hospital, and my witness is just so amazing that all the doctors and the nurses come to Christ because they see my example. you know like how do i really glorify god that way when i'm kind of alone and not around people at all. And just a really encouraging principle for me, and I hope it will be to others as well, is just this concept.

I think sometimes we divide. Kind of the temporal world from the spiritual world more than we should. And we don't really think about the fact that. God, the angels, Satan, the demons, they see what's happening to me all alone right here in my room. Like they're watching to see whether I.

Am still holding on to faith and worshiping the Lord or cursing and rejecting Him, like in my circumstances. And so I would encourage people who are suffering as well, as part of the story that only sufferers can tell is not only that God is worthy of my worship. Despite the fact that maybe I don't have all these other things from his hand, but that we can still bring him glory on a cosmic level, even if no other human eyes are seeing our struggle. They're not seeing us crying out in the middle of the night at 3 a.m. because we're in pain or we're grief-stricken from loss.

It's being seen not by human eyes, but by spiritual eyes. And So there's, in a sense, we can never, we never don't have an opportunity to glorify God. We still always have that opportunity. It's just in a different way, I think, than we talk about a lot in the church, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense.

And actually, you know, in James and in Romans, when it talks about like in James, when it says, consider it all joy when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Ultimately, in both of those passages, what you just said is. True is the fact that. Our faith is actually made more evident. I think that people that have gone through suffering.

Have more assurance of their salvation, that they don't struggle as much with a lack of assurance, which, you know, the older I've gotten, the more I've learned that a lot of believers, myself included, over the years, struggle with that. They struggle with assurance of salvation. And really, a lot of that is rooted in us having an unbiblical approach to our thinking, of thinking that we have to check off all these different boxes in order to be saved. And if one of these boxes is not checked off, well, maybe I'm not really saved when it's by grace alone, through faith alone. But when you go through the hardest of circumstances and I feel like comprehensive and chronic illness is one of the hardest things you could ever go through because it's unrelenting.

with no real end in sight oftentimes. And But when you can continue to say, God is good, even when my circumstances aren't. There's a real proof of salvation there because we can't say that in our own power. We we can only say that through The spirit that's within us. And you brought up another good point talking about how we often don't think about the spiritual realm as much as we ought to think about the spiritual realm.

And We often forget The role that Satan can play in our suffering. And again, we know this for certain that he does play a role and a pretty hefty role. If you look at what God has allowed us to see in Job, he's the one that saw the faithfulness of Job and brought him to God and said, Of course, he's faithful. Look at all that you've given him. Of course, he praises you.

Look, you've given him children, you've given him wealth, you've given him status. And God said, okay, I will permit you to bring suffering. But you know, God put parameters on it all along the way. But he did give Satan permission to try Job's faith. And what you mentioned in your book, too, that People that deal with chronic and comprehensive suffering are especially susceptible to Satan's attacks.

Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah. I think in the church we tend to be pretty familiar with and talk a lot about how Satan seeks to get at believers through tempting them to sin. Um And so I think sometimes when it comes to suffering, it's not as front of mind that. Satan doesn't just try to get to us through Maybe the pleasures of the world, but he also seeks to destroy our faith.

through pain and suffering. And so it would make sense that the more suffering a person experiences or endures. The more they might be susceptible to Satan's attacks of Okay, like where's your God now? Or is this God really worth following? Are all of those things that you once believed in the sunshine were true?

Are they still true now that there's clouds completely covering the sun and you can't feel anything?

So he does get to us through pleasure, but he can also get to us through pain, leaving people who are suffering especially vulnerable to his attacks. Um And it's also the case, as you mentioned, that a lot of times people in that experience of comprehensive or chronic suffering. It shouldn't be this way, but unfortunately, a lot of times they are very isolated from relationships and from the body of Christ, not because they want to be, but because their capacity is limited, and maybe the church really isn't stepping up as the church the way that it should. And everybody, I mean, it's obvious. We don't need to persuade anyone of this truth.

We all know that people are more susceptible. To an attack, whether it's physical out in the real world or whether it's Satan. When we're isolated and when we're alone. And so the greater susceptibility there, a lot of times, will come into play as well, just because of the isolation. Yeah, and you know what you're saying is so true because when you're isolated too, and you're not having people constantly remind you of the truth, because as you said earlier, the truth doesn't just lay dormant in you.

You still know the truth, but sometimes suffering can cloud that truth. We can listen to the whispers that Satan says: is God really good? Because why would a good God, and you hear this so much in the world, why would a good God? allow a good person to suffer. Why would a good God allow a child to die?

Why would a good God take a godly man? Off the earth. I feel like we've seen so many Godly men of the faith. This year, especially Die, and it's like, Lord, you're taking so many people that you know, we feel like we need those people to be pillars in our church right now. But it's so easy to listen to those and think, hmm, maybe God isn't really good.

Maybe God doesn't really hear my prayers. Maybe God is punishing me, which is another thing that I think is. That believers can sometimes take to heart. And start whispering to their own hearts. And again, it goes back to what you were talking about with the accusations that miserable comforters make.

And our pastor just touched on this this past week, and it's such a good reminder is that God does not Punish his children. Christ took the full punishment for our sins. He took that fully upon himself. We, as his children, do not get punished. We may get disciplined.

There's a difference there. God is not coming at us as this wrathful God that says, I'm going to pour out all of this suffering on you just to watch you suffer, and I'm going to punish you. He disciplines those whom he loves to create in us a character that is more like Christ, so that we can reflect his image, so that the dross can be taken off and we can reflect his image as fine gold. What what are some of the struggles that you face with chronic and chronic chronic and comprehensive suffering when it comes to your prayer life when it doesn't seem like when it doesn't seem like god is hearing and answering your prayers Yeah. a very, very long season where I was really wrestling with the thought of feeling like I was a baby or a child, like in prayer, crying out to my parents to come rescue me, to come alongside me, to be there for me.

And it just kind of felt like I was this infant screaming in my room. And my parents never came because it felt like I was crying out to the Lord, and whatever answers I was wanting or expecting, whether that be in my circumstances or in my. Internal state or my ability to have a perception of God's presence. I wasn't getting that. And after a while, I just remember starting to think, like, Okay, like if mom or dad isn't going to come and get me.

I might as well stop crying. You know, I remember, and as I was thinking all that in the context of a story I had heard once of, Someone who is adopting a child, and they were overseas in this orphanage. How disturbed they were that none of the children in the cribs were crying, and they came to find out that it's because when the kids cried, no one ever came to them.

So they eventually just stopped crying because they knew no one was going to come help them. And I felt that on a very spiritual level with the Lord that. Temptation or discouragement or despair of what's even the point? Like, why to keep on crying out to him? And so.

That definitely was part of my experience of what's the use. I don't want to pray, just getting discouraged, or sometimes just even. Physically being so exhausted that it impacted my mental capacity. And maybe I wanted to pray, but I just felt like. I didn't really have words to pray.

Or That they wouldn't be good enough prayers because maybe they had to be done a certain way for God to want to hear them.

So, those are just a few, but. But yeah, it's such a It's such a painful place to be because, as a believer, Our relationship with God is the most important thing about our lives. And so when we feel like there's threat or jeopardy or dissonance in that relationship, it's And when you see this in Job's story, it really wasn't even The suffering that was the worst part of it for him. It was this perception of this change in his relationship with God, and God wasn't seeming to be. who Job had always experienced him to be before.

You know, you see that even with Jesus when he was here in the flesh, right? Like his most. agonizing thing he ever said is, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And that That was His greatest form of suffering was feeling separated from the Father when he took on our sins. And I actually wrote down a verse here that just.

You know, I came across my reading yesterday that I think is so applicable, though, for people that are feeling exactly like what you just said. And it's in Psalm 22, 24, and it says, For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one. He has not hidden his face from him, but he has listened to his cry for help.

Sometimes I think that we forget that Even not like our realm of time is not the same as God's realm of time, and so. we we want answers instantaneously. That That's true of all humanity, right? We want answers quickly, and when we don't get those answers quickly, We feel like we're not being listened to. And I think that that I think that that's the case for a lot of people that go through suffering of any kind, really.

If you go through the suffering of the loss of a child or the loss of a job, you're going through chronic depression, whatever it may be, if we're crying out to the Lord constantly, saying, Lord, please deliver me from this, please deliver me from this. and were not being delivered from it. There really is just our human heart of thinking he's not listening. To me, why even continue to pray that? Because he's clearly not listening, or just like you said, thinking maybe I'm not using the right words.

But also being reminded that scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. And so, really, our words. Verbatim are not what's most important, right? God sees the heart, He sees the hidden person. And There are times when we are too weak physically, or even sometimes just too weak emotionally and spiritually, to even know what to say.

Sometimes all we can bring to the Lord is heavy heart and our tears. But what a comfort to know that God cannot lie. Scripture says that there are some things that God cannot do, and one of them is lie. He cannot lie.

So when he tells us again in Psalms, it says, I bend down to listen. For as long as I have breath, because he hears me. For as long as I have breath, I will bend down to listen. He bends down to listen, therefore I will pray as long as I have breath, is what it says. And When we can remind ourselves of those truths, that's wonderful.

That's what we ought to be doing: reminding ourselves of those truths, but sometimes we can't. And so that's when we really need the church. The church serves. A A biblical function beyond just us going to church, hanging out with people, hearing the sermon, and then talking about where we're going to go to lunch, right? We are to be the hands and feet of Christ.

We are the body of Christ. And so. I want to ask you, in those seasons when you were pouring out your heart and just pleading to the Lord to bring you comfort, to ease some of your suffering, If you had had someone from your church, let's say someone from your church that week had stopped by and said, you know, Carrie, I really just, the Lord put you on my heart and I wanted to bring you a meal and I'd love to just sit with you and chat with you over the meal and find out how you're doing and how I can be praying, not only for you, but can I just spend some time praying with you? Would that have ministered to your heart and made you feel seen by the Lord? That I don't know if you can see me tearing up right now.

That should be an indication of my answer, but. I cannot imagine. Anything more Beautiful and Christ-like and comforting and something that would have sustained A stronger connection in my faith in the Lord in all those years than someone doing just that. You know? Maybe people listening, maybe to me, that maybe to them it sounds like, oh, that's no big deal at all.

Or maybe it sounds like, oh, that's such a big ask. When could I do that? Either way, that is profoundly. Ministering to others. And I think there's just times in suffering.

When It's almost like someone needs to. Hold faith for us, if that makes sense. Like our faith feels so weak. We need someone to come alongside and just I'm I'm trusting the Lord. On your behalf with you.

And it's okay, like if you don't feel that right now, I hope that you do and that you will once again, but right now, I have faith that the Lord has good purposes for you. I have no idea what they are. But I'm believing that he hasn't forsaken you. Like, I mean, imagine just having someone next to you. Speaking the truth instead of all the horrible things.

That Satan can be screaming at us 24/7.

So, yes, that is huge. And, you know, maybe. It doesn't seem as flashy as going on that big missions trip or the big evangelistic outreach or whatever seems like, oh, this is going to do so much for the Lord and for the kingdom. I mean, when we're talking about people in this kind of suffering. I mean uh Their faith is on the line, apostasy is on the line.

Like these are huge, huge, significant realities. And so, stepping into that with someone in a way like that is profound ministry. I think it's important too that we remember that we all have the same spirit within us, right? If we're believers, the Holy Spirit. is indwelling.

In you, he's indwelling in me. And so there are times as believers, I know this has happened to me many times when. Out of nowhere, like I will just feel like someone's been put on my mind and on my heart. And we can either choose to listen to that. Or we can choose to again pull a Martha and say, I'm just too busy, I'll get to that later.

You know, I'll do it tonight. You'll forget. In in the same way that when when you know that someone is hurting, It's so much better to say. Can I pray with you rather than saying, I'll be praying for you? Or if you say, I'm gonna be praying for you, stop what you're doing right then and pray for them because so often, We have good intentions, but we don't follow through.

And a lot of it going back to what you had said, Carrie, is because we're just simply too busy. Like we're too busy to be really useful. And you hear we think we're so useful and we're so important because we're so busy. That's not what God calls us to do. There's so much ministry that can be had.

In those quiet moments. And even, you know, scripture does talk about not letting our right hand know what our left hand is doing. And so when we serve people, We shouldn't do so with this pomp and circumstance for us to be noticed because that's like the scribes and the Pharisees, right? They did things, they did service to the Lord and service to others, not out of a genuineness of their heart, not out of a genuine love for others or love for the Lord, but out of a pridefulness, out of a desire to be seen by men and praised by men. And when we make the effort to go into those quiet places, those Retirement homes, or go into the home of someone that has been suffering for years, or maybe they were just diagnosed with a chronic illness that there's no cure for.

There's no easy fix for it. And now they're faced with suffering year after year. Little things like send a text message the second they come on your heart and say, you know, the Lord just brought you to my mind and heart. How can I pray for you today? And actually, I think.

Does it seem more manageable when you are facing chronic illness and pain for people to take things in small chunks instead of it being like, how are you doing? For people to ask, how are you doing today? How can I pray for you today? Is that more manageable? Yeah, I would say, especially as a text, because like Text can be appropriate for some kinds of things, and it can be really inappropriate for other types of communication that may be much better served as a phone call.

Or an in-person conversation.

So, yeah, just dropping the how are you doing question mark as a text can be. Yeah. Incredibly overwhelming to someone experiencing comprehensive and chronic suffering because the answer is long and complicated. And I think we just need to be aware of the fact that. Again, I'm not saying texting is bad because text can be really helpful in a lot of times and circumstances.

But anytime you're going to reach out to someone or ask a certain question, maybe just consider. Could a text really bear the weight of that answer? That's a great question. Or not. I think I think that that is Great and keeping it small.

And not only what you were just saying, as far as don't ask questions like, How are you doing? Alongside those lines, we hear this time and time again: is don't ask, let me know if you need anything, don't say that. Literally just say I would like to come by and water your plants and mow your lawn. Can I come do that on Wednesday or Thursday? I'd like to bring you a meal.

Do you have any allergies? Can I bring that to you Monday or Tuesday? Would you like me to drop it off? Or would you like to have some company and I can spend some time with you tonight? There's so many different ways that you can practically serve.

And one of the neat things about the body of Christ is that God has equipped us all differently, right? He's given us all not only different spiritual gifts, but he's given us all different gifts and talents. And so maybe you're a great baker and you could say, you know, I just made some fresh bread and I'd love to come drop off some fresh bread and some coffee and just pray with you for a little bit. Or maybe you're excellent with kids and you could say, hey, I've been thinking about you and praying for you. Could I just take your kids to the park for the afternoon so you can rest a little bit?

There's so many different ways that you can uniquely serve people that are suffering and suffering all different types of grief. One of the other things that I wanted to ask you is. Can there be joy and contentment amidst chronic and comprehensive pain? Yeah. I I think that there can be, scripture would indicate that there can be.

But I think we need to be really careful, and this goes back to things we talked about earlier. Yes, there can be joy and contentment. But I think we need to be really careful about being the ones to try to define whether another person is joyful enough in our opinion or content enough in our opinion. That's where we really need to kind of drill deeper into: well, what do we even mean when we say joy? And is that really like comprehensively biblical?

What do we really mean when we say contentment? Because joy doesn't mean that we're never sad. that we're never that we never lament that we don't weep. Contentment doesn't mean That we never vocalize, that we wish our circumstances were different and that they would change.

So it's an absolutely yes answer with a ton of caveats, I think, that we need to be careful about. Yeah, and there's nothing Inerrantly or inherently unbiblical about saying that we wish that our circumstances were different, actually, because We live in a fallen world, right? Christ Himself desired that our circumstances would be different in the end. That's why He came and suffered and died so that our circumstances in the end will be different. We will not have condemnation and hell.

When we are in heaven, the old things will have passed away. We will not suffer. We will not mourn. We will not cry. We will not have pain.

So those things, Christ did come to take those away ultimately. And so When we say I'm really struggling in my circumstances. These are not the circumstances that I would choose. It really is just saying That we Are sad about the consequences of sin, right? We're sad about.

what has happened to humanity and what The consequences are. from original sin down through our own daily sin that has has eroded what God's perfect plan was for us in the beginning. And again, sitting alongside one another in those ashes and saying, you know, I so agree with you, I can't wait. Till we can get renewed bodies. I can't wait to be fully sinless in the presence of the Lord.

I can't wait to have no more tears and no more suffering. and encouraging each other with what is to come as well because What a neat thing that we all have to look forward to. And I think There's, there's, our spirit rejoices when we think about the glory that is to come, right? Um, What what would you say is the greatest source of hope? for the chronic sufferer.

Mm. The greatest source of hope is that our suffering does have an expiration date. Even if it lasts the rest of our earthly lives, Um Just as you were saying so well, 100% that this world is not. as it should be. And really, only the mature can acknowledge that reality.

It's actually spiritual immaturity to refuse to acknowledge and weep the way that Sin and suffering wreaks havoc on people's lives, and to not be angry about the injustices that people suffer.

So, the absolute hope. is that Jesus has come and is coming again. To banish all of the things that cause our suffering and bring us into everlasting joy. And so it can be hard to think. Man, how am I going to do this for another?

Forty years potentially until the Lord calls me home that. Seems like a very long time, and in one sense, it is a long time, but in another sense, It'll be like this until we're with the Lord.

So that's the ultimate hope that. our suffering will end um and it will end forever and we will forever experience just The glory and freedom and health, and all the things that the Lord originally intended for us. Yeah. I think part of that makes me think of going back to where you had talked about that there's a story that only sufferers can tell. And there's something very beautiful about the fact that those who have suffered and those who suffer deeply and for a long, projected period of time.

Their grip on this world becomes so much looser because this is not, not only do they realize more fully that this is not their home, but they don't even want it to be. Whereas when things are going really well, when we're in perfect health, all of our loved ones are healthy and with us, we really have a tight grasp on this world. But those like yourself who are suffering moment by moment, day by day. There's this longing for heaven that we should all have. You know, we should all be saying, I cannot wait to get there.

And yeah, you want to come over and let's talk about heaven. Let's talk about what our final home is going to be. That's what we all should have, but I think that that increases so much more through suffering, and that is. A gift of suffering, although, you know, as C. S.

Lewis to coin his phrase, it's a severe mercy, right? It's not a mercy that any of us would desire. I think many of us have have Prayed with apprehension, the prayer of Lord, make me more like you, grow my faith. And then the back of our head, we're thinking, What are you going to do? What are you going to, what are you going to test me with?

You know, because I. Our faith. is weak in and of itself. But the Lord has come to meet us in our weaknesses. He does not despise.

Our frailty. And he made his son To be frailty as Jesus, so that we would have a high priest that can sympathize with our weaknesses. I hope that the listeners that are tuned in today that some of the takeaways that you come away with are Take that time to serve slow down.

So that you have some room to serve, and then seek that out. Be constantly thinking about who you can serve in your church, especially, because that's our realm of service that God has placed us in to be the hands and feet. And Take that time out to actually sit with people in person. Bring them a meal. Bring them some encouragement.

Bring them prayer. Be a genuine friend. Be the hands and feet of Christ. Learn what it looks like to serve as Christ served. And before we go, Carrie, this is a wonderful book, not only to encourage people.

who are suffering, I'd say this is a huge encouragement if you are suffering. But As I mentioned earlier in the program, Carrie is also a certified biblical counselor. There's a lot of really helpful information in here for counselors. And as we have talked about on a different episode that speaks about biblical counseling, we're all counselors, right? We are all called to counsel wisely.

And this will help equip you.

So, Carrie, where can people buy Limping Heavenward? Yeah, probably the most accessible is Amazon for sure, but it can also be purchased. through Westminster Books, Ligonier Ministries. And I think through Walmart and Barnes and Noble online as well.

So there's a lot of options out there. And especially for people maybe who are experiencing comprehensive and chronic suffering, if it's difficult for you to physically read, I think the audiobook version just came out yesterday.

So that's an option too. If that serves people who just have difficulty for whatever reason reading and need to listen. Yeah. Or if you're a busy mom, you listening is great. But I'm telling you, as someone that has had the benefit of reading this book, don't miss out on the content of this book.

And we actually have a few copies that she's donated to us as well. And so if you donate to our ministry this month, you're going to receive a free copy of this as a thank you. And Carrie, thank you so much for not only being willing to vulnerably share your own experience, but also for taking the time to write this book to not only encourage people that are also suffering. Chronically and comprehensively, but to help equip the church so that we can be known as his disciples, right? As John tells us, that when we love one another, that's how we're known as his disciples.

So, thank you so much for joining us today on Hope in the Morning. It's my pleasure. Thank you. Yeah. Hope in the Morning is a non-profit ministry that seeks to encourage the hurting.

Equip those who walk beside them, and evangelize the lost with the hope of Jesus Christ. to partner with our ministry or to make a donation in your loved one's honor. Please visit hopeinthemorning.org. Your donation helps keep these stories of hope on the air and helps tangibly meet the needs of the hurting.