For many, many years, I'd be working in my office. I worked from home, and my wife would be at the other end of the house, and I would hear this crazy laughter coming out. And I would look at my clock and say, oh, Kathie Lee had held her aunt. And I could set my watch by how explosive her laughter was, which is no small thing when you live with the kind of challenges she has.
And one of my favorite people is here with us today. That's Kathie Lee Gifford, who has made my wife laugh for many, many years. And I just, you have my eternal gratitude, because it really, and she didn't laugh quietly. She laughed boisterously.
I mean, like a drunk, fighting kind of laugh. I love that about her, yes. And you did that, and you're- She lives big, doesn't she?
She does, and it's a wonderful testament, though, to you of the joy and the laughter and the love that you've brought to a lot of people, but to Gracie and me particularly, I want you to know how appreciative I am. And how are you feeling today? I'm good. I mean, I am so blessed.
I have the first head cold I've had in about five years. You think I'm going to complain about anything? No.
No, no, no. Well, you do live in the allergy capital of the United States now, in Middle Tennessee. No, I know that.
And yes, but I do know the difference. And it was a long allergy season this year, and I got through that just fine. Thank you, Lord. Got through COVID just fine.
And then you get the good old head cold, where you do the left nostril and the left eye, and then it takes a tour to the right eye and the left nostril, and then it goes into your chest. It's a lot of fun. Well, we live in Montana now, and Kathie Lee moved from the Northeast into Middle Tennessee, just as we were heading out of Middle Tennessee and moved to Montana.
You made a great move. I don't miss the allergies. Well, we do love it. Oh, Montana's so pretty. It is. And our sons, our grandsons and our granddaughter just left yesterday with our oldest, and our youngest son will leave this afternoon and go back to Nashville.
He lives there. But my boys and I were out on horseback the other day, and it was just a wonderful time to be with the family. And I can't believe we have grandchildren. This is embarrassing, but I don't care. I tell it anyway. Gracie got... She was asked twice in one day if I was her father. That's how old I'm starting to look, evidently. And she thought that was funny. She laughed about that for some time.
I'm laughing too. I haven't seen a recent picture of you. You'll have to send me a recent picture. Well, my hair is incandescent white, and I tell people it's Arctic blood. You probably turned into a mountain man there, right? No, I do shave.
In the wintertime, I'll grow a beard, but it is white, and it's embarrassing but no, I'm good with it. I was actually working in my yard in Nashville when we lived there, just before we moved out here. And some guy in a truck, they were building something at the house next to us. And he backed in and then turned back around and looked at me, and he yelled out his window and said, hey. I said, yes, sir. He said, are you Phil Donahue? I was like, no.
And he thought it was a normal question to ask. But anyway, so Gracie got a big charge that she looks younger than I do. Kathy Lee. Just tell me please how she is doing most importantly.
Well, thank you. She's got some challenges waiting for her. Architecturally, her body orthopedically is just a train wreck. And we've got to go to Denver at the end of this month and see a very high specialist specialist. They're looking at some things with her that are very serious to try to help with some things, but we don't know if she could survive it, and we don't know.
Oh, dear Lord. But I told Gracie, if she does the surgery, I said, Gracie, we're not there yet. If we're at the point now where can she have the surgery, then we're going to get to should she have the surgery, and then we're going to go to will she have the surgery. So we're not there yet. One step at a time, sweet Jesus, right? Indeed. And the good news is, and I think this is where Gracie's faith really, I think, anchors her.
When she gave up her leg, her first leg, I remember her saying to people later, she said, I didn't know what was on the other side of that operating room door, but I knew who was. And I think that's where we live. He said, okay, he's already there. He knows.
And so we're going to trust him with today. And this is where we are. And so she lives with a lot of pain. That's part of her journey. And she and Johnny are very close. Johnny, they have that one common enemy, don't they?
Well, they were, and they were both hurt when they were 17. And I know it's incredible. So it's, you know, it, but, but her, her music is, uh, I got a, I've got a friend of mine out here and, uh, was, uh, with Warner Brothers in, in Nash, I mean, in LA. And he's wanting to cut some things to Gracie. He said, and he's a harmonica player and he loves to do the blues and so forth.
And, uh, he said, you ought to do some blues, Gracie sings the blues. And I said, well, she's got it right. And you know, so she is singing and she's getting in the studio and singing some things. And, um, and, and she doesn't have the power she used to have when she sang, but she's got the artistry there because it's just coming from such a deep place in her soul. And I think, uh, but being out here in Montana has been good for her to look at this magnificent beauty and, um, and just settle her heart down. And so that's been good for her.
So thank you for asking for that. Uh, the audience is probably, well, the audience doesn't know Gracie could, could go out and see a little bit more about her at our website at standingwithhope.com. And you could see a little bit more about who she is and what she's done and what God has brought her through and continues to do so. Um, Kathie Lee, speaking of what God has brought her through, um, I've been watching some things in our country where there's so much discord, there's so much unsettledness, there's so much rancor. And I thought as believers, you know, the rancor even, it slips into the church. It doesn't slip in the church.
It knocks the door down and goes on there and knocks a few pews over. And we, we need to step back a little bit as believers and realize, wait a minute, are we contributing to this or are we being part of the solution? And you and I were having a conversation about your book.
It's never too late. Uh, we did that, I guess about last December. And I wanted just to kind of pick up where we left off because so many of the things that you put into this are things that I think that are important for us to understand now as believers. And, and I wanted you to just unpack it because of your own journey of not just personal stuff. I'm talking about professionally, everything else you've had to walk through, letting go of some things, trusting God with very uncomfortable things, forgiveness, this resentment that we, we seem to have collectively as a country.
You know, I think you and I would, would both agree on this. Resentment is exhausting. You know, it'll, it'll, it'll give, it'll put you in an early grave.
It's right up there with unforgiveness. Well, and that's why you got a whole chapter called forgiveness, forgive. So just walk us through a little bit of what you reached down and the benefit that you got out of that and it unleashed this creativity.
You got these oratorios you're doing, you got movies you're doing. None of that would have happened had you not wrestled with that, with the forgiveness and the great grace of our savior. You know, I, I, at being a student, Peter rabbinically of the word of God for so many years now, I have a very, very Jewish take on things that I, even though I am Jewish, I wasn't raised as a Jew and I am getting more and more and more comfortable and more and more aware of our Jewish heritage. That, that's for all of us, whether we are Jewish by, by blood, like I happen to be, or we are grafted into the, the root of Judah. The, the, that the Bible talks about what, you know, as all Gentiles are, we are one tree. And I love that scripture in the, on the Psalms, it says, as for me, I will be an, I will be like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God and trusting in His, in His unfailing love forever and ever.
I love that. I love that we are some, we are deeply, deeply rooted, not just in God's love and in His, His mercy, but, but in our history, we have a glorious, glorious faith history as a people. And it goes back thousands and thousands of years. It goes back to creation. And so when I start to understand my little life, my little microscopic little life on this planet and, and everything that it is, it has entailed, I mean, it's almost like you sitting, sitting there with Gracie and looking at the Montana sky.
How every, how, how small do you feel when you're there and with that kind of sky that you're looking at? But it also has the opposite experience for me, is you're in awe of God's wonder and how He would be mindful of me. I mean, God of the universe, and there are universes beyond our universe. I have no question that God, Almighty Jehovah Elohim, Creator of all things, loves us.
Our little, our little dust balls, we're dust balls, may remain from dust, we go to dust, but we're beloved dust balls. And He loves us with an all-consuming fire of a love. And I look back on all that He's done and His faithfulness in my life.
And I know your experience and your story is, and Gracie's story and Joni's, all of us as believers have the same basic common denominator in our life stories and our faith walks, and that is God's faithfulness to us, not the other way around. Even when He gives us faith and He gives us faithfulness, those are gifts from Him abiding and giving to us in His faithfulness. So every good and perfect gift, as it says in James 1.17, or is it three?
I forget, I'm getting old. It says, every good and perfect gift comes from above, streaming down from the Father in the heavenly realm, who does not change like shifting shadows. One of my favorite scriptures, because we live in an ever-changing world. But I look back on the faithfulness of God, and we're no different than the Hebrews wandering in the wilderness all those years. And God, Jehovah Jireh, which is a Hebrew word for God the provider, what did He do? He provided every single day manna, which was the food of the angels, basically. He gave us the food of the angels, but He only gave us enough for what? One day at a time.
One day at a time. And that's what blows me away, because it went rotten after that. You needed it fresh every day. And that's not because God wasn't going to give it to you, it's because God wanted us to wait with expectancy. I love that other scripture that says, in the morning, Lord, you hear my voice. In the morning, I come before you with my request, and then I wait with expectancy. And I like to change that a little around to say, expect and see that God will show up, because His word is flawless, and His promises are flawless, and He is God Almighty, and He does not change like shifting shadows. So that manna is going to be fresh like His mercy to us every single morning. And I try to stop asking Him for more than what I need. Give me what I need, Lord, You are enough.
And if I put You first, and I praise You first, and I worship You above all things in my life, You will give me greater, greater things beyond, immeasurably more, it says in Ephesians, immeasurably more than I could ever hope or imagine or ask. And that is the mystery of the walk we have with Christ. That's the mystery of you and Gracie standing in spite of the fact that it's so difficult for her to actually even stand. And so it's difficult for you to stand beside her and be there beside her every day of her struggle.
It's just, you guys have one of the most beautiful love stories I've ever seen. I've always admired that so much about you, her strength and her faith and her courage, but made possible because you are there with her every second of the struggle. And God has called you to a tough life, a hard life, a life of perseverance and pain. And I'm in all of you.
I'm in all of you. You know that I pray for you every day because... That's very gracious, and I'm very moved by that, Kathy Lee. It is a hard life, and I want to just interject, but it's not a bad life, and I want listeners to hear that, because where suffering abounds, grace is even greater. We've seen this, and I watch Gracie as she sings now. She sings with a sense of purpose and conviction that just continues to deepen. You know, when I play the piano or when I write or whatever, we see things now that we would not see had we not walked through the things we walk through, and you are the same way. I mean, the way... I mean, I look at the creativity that's flowing out of you with these oratorios that you're doing.
I want you to get into those two. We'll probably have to do it right after the break. But the creativity that's going, well, that's not going to come unless you've walked through some tears and learned to let go of things. And that's one of the... Actually, that's one of the chapters in your book, Let Go. You know? It's only hurting you.
Yeah, exactly. And there's a whole saying that I got from one of my Jesus callings a long, long time ago, and I just love to... The only thing we can cling to in this world without losing a piece of our soul is the hand of God. So we've got to really be honest with ourselves and say, what do I cling to? And if it's something other than the hand of God, we're going to pay a price for it in one way or another. Indeed, we will. We're going to take a quick break, but I watch this as our nation. It seems like we're so quick to keep our hands wrapped around someone else's throat and it's... You can't hold on to the hand of Christ while you're holding on to someone else's throat.
We've got to let it go. And just trust that God will work this out. You can't call yourself a follower of Jesus, right? No, you can't.
It is not going to work. We're talking with Kathie Lee Gifford. This is Peter Rosenberger. All the things that we're about here on this show and what I do on my weekly show is equipping us to trust Him in the midst of sometimes very brutal realities. And yet that is when He reveals Himself in ways that we truly are astounded by and did not expect. We'll talk more about that when we come back.
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That's MyPillow.com, promo code CAREGIVER. Welcome back to American Family Radio. I am Peter Rosenberger. Glad to have you with us. We're talking with my longtime friend, Kathie Lee Gifford, and we're talking about letting go of the things that are crippling us and instead clinging to Christ through these challenges, through whatever we have.
As we look at the country, the country is just having a meltdown, and we are so filled with rancor. The only way to work through this is we've got to look and see our own need of a savior. It's hard to cry out to a savior that you don't think you need, but we do need that.
As I shared in the first segment with the man whose limb I washed in Ghana, he had that smelly limb, and I washed it. As my eyes watered, I realized how much more so my own sin caused Jesus' eyes to water. If we're so focused on the redemptive work of Christ in our own life, we're not going to have time to slap other people around for not getting their redemptive work.
This is the message that I want to leave with you all today, that it's really okay to take your hands off of someone else's throat and instead cling to the scarred hands of Jesus, because that's what forgiveness is. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have consequences and that you don't have boundaries. That's not what I'm talking about.
It means that you're releasing this person or these people to the judgment of God, not to your own, and instead you cling to his scarred hands instead of clinging to their throats. This is no way to live. You're seeing what resentment does to people.
You see it on the news every single night. You're seeing what bitterness does. Let's indeed show them something different. Let us show them the redemptive work of Christ in our own life and then invite them to accept that same work in their life as well.
Kathy Lee is no stranger. In fact, I tell you, one of the things that really struck me, Kathy Lee, that you talked about and when we talked in December was that you had to walk through some forgiveness with Howard Stern, and I thought, you know, there's one thing to walk through forgiveness. There's another thing to do it, you know, out in front of millions of people and having to do it with individuals who may not even ask for forgiveness. No, I forgave him. It was a 30-year journey. When he first started attacking me and then saying those, I guess, vile and horrible things, not only just about me but about my husband or about my children, you know, from day one I forgave him.
I had to. First of all, I'd never met the man, never listened to his show, never had anything to do with him, certainly never had wronged him or hurt him in any way. You know, Jesus says, forgive your enemies and those who despise you and treat you good. I didn't know I had an enemy in him, but he chose to be my enemy and I just said, okay, then I'm going to pray for him every day.
I prayed for him this morning and but about, I guess it was 2012, Cody was graduating from USC and there's a long story about it in the book. It's never too late, but it's in essence, he appeared on the Today Show and I went up to him and you should read the whole story because it's kind of very cool the way God did it, but when I did reach out to him and let him know that I had been praying for him for 30 years, because he had come to me and asked for forgiveness, I said, oh Howard, I'm so happy for you that you are understanding how important it is that you do go back to the people that you have hurt through your life and ask them to forgive you and I'm glad, but I just need you to know that I forgave you 30 years ago, Howard, and I've been praying for you ever since, every day since and there's no power like that kind of, that's love and love is where we, the power of it is we can't even measure it and Jesus didn't say, you know, they'll know you're Christians by how many, what anything else, all he said was you don't know you're Christians by your love for one another, they'll know you're Christians by the way you treat people, the way Jesus treated people is the way we should and Jesus did not condemn, so we have no right to condemn. In fact, if we condemn others, we will be condemned ourselves, scripture says. If we judge others, we'll be condemned, but if we forgive, we will be forgiven and I just believe what Jesus says. So it simplifies my life for when I just go, well what did scripture say? What did Jesus say? He said that, I said then that's what I'm going to do and I'm going to do it if it doesn't, even if it makes no sense to me, because it often doesn't, but I'm going to be obedient to what Jesus said to do because he wouldn't lie to me and he's the only voice I trust in this whole world, never, never to lie to me. The world lies to us on a daily basis and but Jesus never does. You know, I think back about, you know, in this particular case of you extending this to Howard and you didn't ask for this, it just, you know, he took you on as an enemy and whatever reason, but then he was, evidently something happened in his life that he wanted to make some level of amends and how much different that conversation would have gone had you held on to bitterness, had you held on to resentment. And this is what I want people to hear. We open the door to redemption when we open our heart to forgiveness. God can redeem all things through a forgiven heart. Well, and I look back at what the wonderful story of Corrie ten Boom when that Nazi guard came up to her when she was speaking and she recognized him immediately and he held his hand out and she was just struggling.
Oh my goodness, should I take this man's hand? And she did. And she did.
And it literally, that one handshake reverberated literally around the world. And, you know, and I think this is the place we are in as believers that can we extend the same forgiveness that we have received? Can we comfort with the same comfort that we have received? Look at all the creativity that has flowed from you. And I, if I may be so bold, I don't think any of it would have happened had you held on to resentment. No.
Is that a fair statement? God wants to bless us. He wants to bless us. He wants to grant us favor.
He wants to strengthen our hearts and lengthen our days. And even as we get older, which is happening to all of us at the same rate every single day, he says, young men will stumble and fall, but those who wait on the Lord and meaning trust and believe in the Lord will renew their strength. They will mount up with wings like eagles. They will run and not fall. They will walk and not grow weary. And I'm experiencing that in this season of my life.
I mean, I'm exercising in a way that my bone density went up 7.3 percent last year, which doesn't, does not happen. That's miraculous. You know, and it's just, I just kind of go, Lord, I just feel stronger than I've ever been. I feel, I feel more mentally acute and just might, I just feel, all of my senses are just on fire. And I think that's because this next season of my life is going to be by far the most fruitful. There will be a harvest for all of those who have been toiling in the field for decades now.
Decades. And that's you and that's Gracie. And your harvest will look different from mine, but nonetheless it will be because we trusted, not that we were perfect, we trusted God that his promises are true, his word is flawless, and if we do trust him, love him, that's what pleases God is our faith. He will bless us for it. We will live long in the land and prosper, as he says, and have a future and a hope like Jeremiah promised us. And I just believe it.
I believe it. You know, the world can tell me anything else that's contrary to that, but I just reject it in the name of Jesus. I know him, not just by the word of God, what the word of God says of it. I know him experientially since I was a child, and there's nothing, no amount of proof they could put in my face that would make me say, but you don't know what he did for me. You don't know where he was in my life at that moment, and the only way I got through it was because I know Jesus was with me.
So you can tell me all kinds of garbage. I reject it. I reject it, and not only do I reject it, I pray for you as you're trying to deliver it to me, that God will be that present in your life too. And then you just love people the way Jesus did, and they cannot stand. They cannot stand before the love. It blows them over like the Holy Spirit blows us over.
You just cannot stand on holy ground like that and be the same. Well said. I've been watching, and I've really enjoyed it, The Chosen.
Have you been watching it? Yeah, I just used those boats in this latest film on my oratory. I used Capernaum Village. I got all those ideas from The Chosen. I'm grateful to them. Yeah, I think it's a beautiful, beautiful series.
Highly recommend it to people. It's so well executed. Well, they've done such a great job of portraying Jesus, this time not as some pensive, reflective, quasi-Caucasian, but just as a very Jewish guy who's very direct with people.
And I love what they've done with it, and just the compassion and the directness. He doesn't flinch. And when he sees the grieving and the wounded, and that scene when he met with the leper. And he said, and he said, Lord, you can heal me if you will. Oh, well, you know, in the scripture, I won't give it away because it's in scripture.
I will. You know, he says, I will. And he said, he stretched out his hand. You know, Jesus did not have to stretch out his hand to heal anybody. He didn't have to. No, he could have just. Given the word.
Yeah. But why is that important that he stretched out his hand? And he stretched out his hand to touch a man who everybody else, and the way they did this in the film was, the disciples, even some of them pulled their knives to get this guy away from him. And he, this guy had no hope. And we've gone through a taste of that with the COVID of, of, you know, we can't, everybody's unclean.
We got to wear masks, you know, and we can't get near anybody. And then here, Jesus just stretched out his hand to touch something that was so unclean, and he made it clean. And I thought, if we're not saying this on a daily basis to ourselves, ourselves, how in the world are we going to say it to the world? To understand this gospel, that this is what it is. He touches that which is broken and unclean, and he redeems it.
And he willingly does this. I'm going to send it to you today, Peter, to you. And it's almost finished. And it's, you know, the last month of the work that we're doing on something I've been working on now, two and a half years, called The Way. And it's basically from creation to revelation, Jesus is the way.
And in it, the fourth oratorio of the four is one I wrote with these amazing, amazing musicians, two of my dearest friends here in the Nashville area now. And it's called The God of the Other Side. And that's exactly what you're talking about, because it's based on the story when Jesus said, get into the boat, get into the boat and meet me on the other side. We in our Western civilization of Christianity think, oh, he was saying, get into the boat, meet me on the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is technically accurate.
However, the other side, if you understand rabbinically, the other side was an actual place. It was the Decapolis, where there were 10 villages where the pagans had escaped from Joshua and the invading Hebrews, when they invaded to take over the promised land. The ones who lived in the land of Canaan escaped and went to a place called the Decapolis, 10 villages that were very blasphemous in their way of life. They worshiped all kinds of gods other than Yahweh. God loved them. God loved them, but they certainly did not know his love or were living by his love. But the point of it is, when Jesus said, get into the boat and go to the other side, and I'll meet you over there.
He didn't get in the boat with them. He said, I'm going to go into the mountains and pray, you go on to the other side. They, 12 men, just now started to understand that they were with somebody. They're following a very different kind of rabbi all those centuries ago. And the other side was where they had been told their entire lives never to go. It was where everything unclean they'd been warned about all their lives was. And if they went there, they would lose community. They would be unclean.
They would not be welcomed back into their families. So he was basically saying, you go, follow me, and go to the other side, and you're going to lose everything for my name's sake. But it's going to be worth it. And so they set out. And what happens? First thing, there's a terrible storm. You know, the squalls that come up on the Sea of Galilee are legendary. They come up so quickly, and the waves can be 20 feet high.
And these boats are barely 20 feet long. So it's a very, very dangerous thing. What happens? What they think is a ghost walking towards them, of course, is Jesus walking on the water. Jesus says, Peter, come to me. And Peter gets out and starts to walk.
Peter looks down at what he doesn't understand. As long as he has his eyes on Jesus, he's good. The minute he doesn't, boom, chaos. He's fallen into the chaos. Jesus lifts him out of the chaos, puts him in the boat. They reach the other side of the Sea of Galilee.
What's the next thing that happens? The bleeding, naked guy coming out of the tomb. Jesus says he's got a hundred demons in him.
Legion. He's got a legion worth of demons in that domain. Jesus feels that man, who goes off to be the very first, basically very first, evangelist that we know about in the Bible. What's he do? He goes back to his village and tells everybody that Jesus touched him and set him free. We're out of time, Kathie Lee.
I hate that, because I want to keep going. Some of you know the remarkable story of Peter's wife, Gracie. And recently, Peter talked to Gracie about all the wonderful things that have emerged from her difficult journey. Take a listen. Gracie, when you envision doing a prosthetic limb outreach, did you ever think that inmates would help you do that?
Not in a million years. When you go to the facility run by CoreCivic and you see the faces of these inmates that are working on prosthetic limbs that you have helped collect from all over the country, that you put out the plea for, and they're disassembling. You see all these legs, like what you have, your own prosthetic legs. And arms, too.
And arms. When you see all this, what does that do to you? Makes me cry, because I see the smiles on their faces, and I know what it is to be locked someplace where you can't get out without somebody else allowing you to get out. Of course, being in the hospital so much and so long.
These men are so glad that they get to be doing, as one man said, something good finally with my hands. Did you know before you became an amputee that parts of prosthetic limbs could be recycled? No, I had no idea. You know, I thought of peg leg. I thought of wooden legs. I never thought of titanium and carbon legs and flex feet and sea legs and all that. I never thought about that. As you watch these inmates participate in something like this, knowing that they're helping other people now walk.
They're providing the means for these supplies to get over there. What does that do to you, just on a heart level? I wish I could explain to the world what I see in there, and I wish that I could be able to go and say, this guy right here, he needs to go to Africa with us. I never not feel that way.
Every time, you know, you always make me have to leave. I don't want to leave them. I feel like I'm at home with them, and I feel like that we have a common bond that I would have never expected, that only God could put together. Now that you've had an experience with it, what do you think of the faith-based programs that CoreCivic offers? I think they're just absolutely awesome, and I think every prison out there should have faith-based programs like this because the return rate of the men that are involved in this particular faith-based program and other ones like it, but I know about this one, is just an amazingly low rate compared to those who don't have them, and I think that that says so much.
That doesn't have anything to do with me. It just has something to do with God using somebody broken to help other broken people. If people want to donate a used prosthetic limb, whether from a loved one who passed away or, you know, somebody who outgrew them, you've donated some of your own for them to do. How do they do that? Where do they find it? Oh, please go to standingwithhope.com slash recycle. Standingwithhope.com slash recycle. Thanks, Gracie. you
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