Never Stop Looking Up in Your Marriage (Part 1 of 2)

When his wife became pregnant with their fourth child, Greg panicked. But a focus on the family counselor put everything into perspective. He said, the first thing you need to realize is kids are a blessing. They're all of the blessings.

They're gifts from God. The second thing he said was, kids value relationships, not stuff. Greg and his wife found the encouragement they needed, and today they have a happy, thriving family of seven children.

We had been really influenced by the culture and by just the kind of overall negativity about kids. And to hear from someone, you know, just godly truth that kids are special, that they're wanted, and that they're a blessing was huge to us. I'm Jim Daly, and we love kids. Let's work together to give more families hope, like Greg's.

When you donate today, your gift will be doubled at FocusOnTheFamily.com slash gift. You know, in some ways, marriage is like a dance. In the beginning, you're so excited to hold hands and move to the music, and it's fun and easy. But then life happens, and the temple gets faster, and it's harder to dance together in the marital relationship.

And sometimes you might accidentally step on your partner's toes or something. This is Focus On The Family with Jim Daly, and we're gonna hear today from a couple who have let each other down in their marriage dance, both literally and figuratively. But in Jesus Christ, they've found rhythm again. They've learned new steps. They've figured out how to hold on to the relationship.

I'm John Fuller, and thanks for joining us today. Hey John, when there's conflict in marriage, most couples seem to have two responses. You know, either they panic and worry they married the wrong person. Now be honest, have you ever thought that? You, the listener, has that ever crept in?

Or you know what? You just shrug your shoulders and say, okay, I'm gonna accept the conflict. I'm gonna accept it the way it is, and this is part of being a Christian in my marriage. Paul reminds us in Ephesians 3 that God is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think. Just let that sink in for a minute. It's possible for you to have a God-honoring, joyful, probably not perfect, but a healthy marriage.

It really is. But here's the catch. Are you willing to stop focusing on your spouse's flaws and work on your stuff?

And the answer typically for all of us as human beings is, no, I'd rather work on the other person because we're selfish creatures. Our guests today, Davin and Wilson, they spent a lot of years thinking that their marriage would be better off if only their spouse would straighten out. And you know, I'm in there too. I mean, I've often thought that. I'm sure Gene has thought that as well. If Jim would only do this, we'd have a far better marriage, and that's probably true in so many ways. It's how you lay your life down for one another, how you become selfless. That's the bottom line in my mind, and that's why God has set it up this way.

He lets opposites attract so that you can irritate each other into the kingdom of God and become more like Christ. It's an awesome plan, and I hope today's program will bring you hope. And the Wilsons are the hosts of Family Life Today, the radio show produced by Family Life. Dave and Ann speak at marriage conferences. They've spent more than 30 years teaching and mentoring couples and parents across the country, and they have three grown sons and a growing number of grandchildren. Dave and Ann, welcome to Focus for the first time, right? Yes, and we are glad to be here. It is so good to have you. Well, you two accidentally, I'm gonna start right with your most embarrassing story, your dance contest.

Really, that's where you want to start. It may not be your most embarrassing story, but it certainly is funny. This, to me, is the quintessential miscommunication in marriage. I was telling my wife about your story this morning. She was howling, going, oh man, and I'm so glad I didn't make this mistake, Dave.

Yeah. I mean, so what happened, how many years were you married? What went on with this little miscommunication? It was actually our 25th wedding anniversary. We're in Mexico at an all-inclusive. We've never been to an all-inclusive, so I'm a tightwad, and I'm loving this place because it's free. All you can eat. Yes. All you can eat.

You swim up to the pool and get a coke. I mean, everything's free, and the trip was free. We were there to do a wedding for a couple in our church. Oh, so it truly was free. I was gonna say, it's not free, Dave.

No, no, it was free, and the couple didn't know, but I'd been praying for a free trip to Mexico for six months, literally every day on my knees, and we got this trip. So this is an answer to prayer. It's unbelievable. So there you are. You guys are excited. Oh, we're excited. Wow.

What happened? So we ended up at this dinner theater where, I guess, every night all the couples go. Yeah, they have a show every night. We didn't know. We were just in our own little world, so we end up there.

They want volunteers. We end up backstage. We were cued that it was the newlywed game, so we thought we were volunteering to get a newlywed game. We didn't know until the curtain opened, MC walks out, and he goes, tonight is dance competition night. Right up your alley.

Oh, it's terrible. We looked at each other. We loved it. Yeah, but we can't dance. And they said, we're going to be having music and dances from around the world, and so we're going to do music that's the waltz. And so we have to, you know, Dave's like, what's the waltz?

Dave. And so it's going to be voted off by the crowd. And the prizes, what do you think? Well, they said grand prize, and we're thinking another free trip back here. Yeah. That would be a grand prize.

That would be a grand prize, and he kept saying grand prize. So we're like, we got to win this thing. Well, we get voted off first couple. We're out. They vote us off because we're terrible. We're terrible.

We can't dance. And there's eight couples or ten couples, and we're off, and we're going to our seat. And as we're going, the emcee says, who are you and where are you from?

So we say, we're Dave and Ann from Michigan. And the crowd starts roaring, and he goes, you want them back on? And they go, yeah. And we're like, no, we're fine. We're sitting down.

He goes, no, you're back on. And we think. Were you a fan favorite because you were that bad? We're that bad. We think there are people from the Midwest. We just, they don't know.

That's the only thing that it could be. They must have heard Michigan like, we represent them. So we end up back. We get to the final three.

Again, don't ask me how. They have to be blind, right? Yeah. And then the final dance before that, we're all dancing together. Now he says, Dave and Ann Michigan, you go first. One couple at a time. He goes, last category music.

It was all categories. He goes, sixties music, acrobatic. That's what he said. And I laughed like Jim did. I'm like, what do you mean acrobatic? He goes, the more acrobatic you are, the better chance you have of winning.

And he said it again, the grand prize. So I look at Ann, nobody there knows this, but me, but she was a gymnast her whole life. She can do aerial flips and round offs. And I'm not getting one arm pushups.

Guys, she could. You're going to win this thing. Oh yeah. Dave has this glimmer in his eye, like we're going to win. And so he bends down to me and he says, you do, you end with a one arm pushups and we're going to win.

And she gives me a look. I got it. So I, and we're both pretty competitive. We're in the final three now.

So we're going after the grand prize. So I back up out of the way. Cause I can't dance.

And I just do my John Travolta and I do nothing. And while I'm doing this, she starts running across the stage and she does aerials. You know what those are? Yeah. The cartwheels without hands, I guess.

I don't know. She bam lands this thing in a crowd. And then she goes the other way.

Bam. And it's like fireworks are going off. This place is loving her. And I'm just like, go girl, go girl.

It was just hilarious. And then the music starting to end. And I'm at one end of the stage. We're 20 yards apart. And so we look at each other, like we need to end this really well.

And so we look at each other, like, how should we end it? And I get this great idea. At least I thought I put my arms in a big circle, like a hula hoop. Yeah.

It didn't look like that to me, Jim. It was a circle. Yeah.

This is the communication part. So you think it's a circle for her to dive through? Yeah. I'm like, you know, SeaWorld.

I'd go to maybe a dolphin. It's just a piece of marriage advice. There you go. And you're thinking, I'm thinking, what's he doing? This is a good time to call a time out.

Yes. But I look at it and I think, oh, he's holding his arms in a way that he's going to catch me like Jennifer Grey in that old movie, Dirty Dancing. There you go. And I think he's going to catch me and we're going to spin around and we'll end it and we'll win.

My arms were in a circle. No question. No. So we look at each other like, got it.

Okay. And so I start running as hard as I can because, you know, as a gymnast, you go 100% and you go hard or else you could get hurt. So I run as hard as I can.

I mean, picture the Olympic vault. She is sprinting at me and I'm like, this is awesome, you know? And so she jumps up in the air and I turn to get out of her way because I'm like, she's going to do her little flip. She's going to land. I'll turn back around and there she'll be. So I literally turn my back. And I smash to the ground, barely catching my face from hitting and I am in pain.

She face plants. I hear it. I never saw it. I heard it like, bam. And the crowd's, and I'm, you know, it's one of those moments where you're like, I know everything that just happened behind me just by the sound.

And it's not good. She thought I was going to catch her. Oh my gosh. And I turn around, the crowd is looking at me like, you jerk, right?

Because it looked like I did it on purpose. And she's laying there laughing. I am laughing so hard in so much pain, but I'm thinking we are the dumbest people on the planet. We're old.

We've been married 25 years. What are we thinking? And I'm laughing thinking we are so dumb. Here's all you need to know.

We won first prize. No, that's not all we need to know. You also had some major injuries. I'm trying to cover that part up.

You don't want to hear that part. This is going right to your head. This is an intervention. Yes. We end up finding out, this is after we got home, that I broke both my wrists. So you had fractures. Yes.

Did you not know they were broken? Well, I just thought, oh. Hey, it's Mexico. You're going to go all out. We'll take care of everyone. You are tough. She kept grabbing her wrists the rest of the trip. I'm like, gosh, you're fine. You're fine.

We get back and go to the doctor. And you know, she's a tough gymnast, but she comes home with two casts on her wrist. And what was the grand prize?

I didn't catch that. Well, it was two free t-shirts. I hope you gave your t-shirt to Ann. I gave it to her. One for each arm.

She could wrap her wrists in my t-shirt. Well, you know, you guys have really illustrated, like we said at the beginning, this is miscommunication, kind of exhibit A, right? Be on the same page. But, you know, relate this to the whole marriage journey. I mean, this is where we miscommunicate. And I think so often we're hoping our spouse is going to meet all our needs and we have that expectation. But we're all flawed. We're all sinners saved by grace. So, you know, where does it go from there? I mean, you're 25 years in it. But this is the basis of marriage, isn't it?

The dark side. Yes. And I would say that too.

I feel like Dave did drop me and he's dropped me many times and I've dropped him many times. And it's so funny when you first get married, you run hard. You go hard at it. You know, you're like, I'm all in.

I want to do this. We're going to be great. And then our spouse lets us down or drops us and they disappoint us. And suddenly we stop running quite as hard. And we're afraid. A little more cautious. Yes.

We're afraid that we'll be dropped. And pretty soon you don't have either one running toward each other. Yeah. And I would add, I think at some point you almost think you married the wrong person because you marry the person you think is going to make you happy.

Yes. And then they don't or there's some disappointment or discouragement and you start to think there's someone else out there that could. I mean, it happens all the time. And I mean, we're in our first year of marriage and driving to our first job, which is in full time ministry to be the chaplain for the Nebraska Cornhuskers. And we're screaming at each other in the car saying, I wish I'd never married you because we're so disappointed already. Never dreaming as two followers of Christ going into ministry, we're going to be this disappointed with each other that quickly. And so many couples go through that.

And I think here's what they think. I married the wrong person. And our answer, the secret we talk about in the book is no, you didn't marry the wrong person. You're looking in the wrong place.

We did the same thing. You're trying to find life from a person, from a job, from an amount of money is never going to satisfy you. You have to look vertical. That's the whole point. But I also feel like we are educated. We go to school so many years for a great career vocation or some sort of training. But how many years have we had training and how to have a great marriage?

Most of us have little or none. Yeah. Describe that situation for you.

What were the fights like? Give us a picture into that. So people hearing us can say, oh, that's just like us. I think I had an expectation of this is what it would look like for Dave to lead our family spiritually. He's a pastor. He was the chaplain for the Detroit Lions. And I saw him lead. He's a great leader. And so he would come home and I had this idea of like, oh, my gosh, you're going to lead us in prayer and this devotion.

And I had this picture of what it would look like in my head. And I would say things to him like, why aren't you leading us? And maybe you should pray more and maybe you should like just lead us. And she would throw names in there, too. Can you lead us more like Jim Daly with his family?

Jim, don't listen to this broadcast. Everybody's guilty of falling short. Oh, yeah. And I mean, I look back, you know, now we're empty nesters. But I look back on those days and I was leading strong outside the home and I would come home and just want to rest. Yeah.

I was going to ask you, what was the disconnect? Because I think a lot of spouses, a lot of wives see that in their husband. They may volunteer at church or do things really good outside the home.

What is it about us men? We feel the home is our refuge. It's not the place we want to work.

Right. I think for me, I really did want to come home and rest. But I also this sounds crazy because I teach men in many ways how to lead spiritually. I felt ill-equipped to do it in my home.

Interesting. I felt like I could do it on a stage. I can do it with men's groups. I can do it speaking at marriage conferences. When I walk in my family room, I'm like, oh my gosh, I got my wife. I don't know how to lead her.

I've got three sons. I really was like, somebody tell me how to do this. And again, I don't want to be a victim. I never saw it growing up.

I never had a model. So I was really looking for help that way. But what I did, I just became passive.

Yeah. I came in the door. I almost had an attitude like, hey, I'm leading strong everywhere. Give me a break. This is a place where I don't need to lead strong.

And she was longing for me to lead. I don't think I responded very well because it wasn't motivating. It's not motivating for a person to have their flaws pointed out daily. I think it made Dave want to retreat, you know, to go somewhere where he was being praised and applauded.

Right. Because at home, I feel like I was probably critiquing him. What did that sound like?

Again, for people to catch it. What does a wife speak in the gender context? What does a wife saying that makes her husband run away? Well, Dave would leave.

He would leave to do something great, like lead a Bible study, do a meeting at church or whatever. And I would say things like, seriously, you're leaving again? And I have to do this by myself? This is being really truthful.

I hope the boys remember who you are. Yeah. Wouldn't you want to come home to me?

She's more game. Well, but it was out of frustration. I don't want to miss. I felt like he wasn't hearing me. That was frustration. You're trying to voice it. I get that.

You want remedy. Yeah. And it was interesting when we communicated about this feeling, what I heard. I don't even remember specific details like that, but we put a story in the book where we were asked to speak at a Mops group. And actually, Anne was asked to speak. Mothers of preschoolers.

Yeah. At our church. And they said, hey, why don't you bring David? It'd be good to hear a man's perspective. And so I get up there. We haven't talked about this. What are you going to say? I'm like, I don't know.

I'll just be color commentary. And I riff into this story that I'd never said out loud. We'd never talked about it.

That's not good. As I'm saying it, I'm like, this is really how a man feels. And basically I said to these women, as a man, you grow up and you have people cheering for you.

If you're good as a little kid at sports, it's your coach, your mom, your dad, your teacher, if you're music, you know. And I'm just saying, we hear cheering all the time. And I'm clapping and Anne's sitting on the stool. And I'm like animated now. And I'm like, oh, this is interesting. You're connecting. Oh, yeah. The women are like, yeah. And I'm like, ooh, this is good.

I've never heard this before. And then. And then. And he says, and he also said, and then I met Anne and she's basically saying, of all the men in the world, I choose you, Dave Wilson.

You are the man. And then he's clapping. I'm like, yeah, this is good.

I did do that. And then he goes, but then we've been married for a while and we men walk in the door and all we hear is boo, boo. And I'm like, what?

I look at him. Yeah. I turned when I said the boo and looked at her on the stool and I'm like, uh oh. Is this the first time you've ever discussed this?

Ever. Oh, man. And I saw her look like, are you kidding me? And I'm like, okay, this is going to be a long drive home, you know. But what happened in that moment is I finally articulated what I as a man felt. I can't tell you the words she said.

I just felt like everywhere else I go, they're cheering me at my church and different places. I come home and she's not literally booing me, but it feels like you want to change me. You're not satisfied with me.

You're not a good father. And so, you know, it's interesting. We know this as men. Men go where they're respected.

It's like a magnet. And so I don't want to come home. I'm not saying that, but I do want to come home. But inside I'm like, here we go. I'm going to walk in the door and I'm not going to be enough of a man and a leader in the home.

And so it was really hard to work through that. Yeah. And honestly, that was the beginning of a real turn in our marriage because Ann really started to say, do I do that? And again, I'm not saying I don't boo her.

I mean, there was the cherish and love thing. But I can tell you this. Nobody cheers me more than this woman today.

It's unbelief. She believes in me. She speaks life to me. And again, it didn't change in one day, but over really some months and years, she is my biggest cheerleader. I mean, she would start to say things like, you're an amazing man of God.

And I would honestly think, no, I'm not. Like, she's raising the bar way up here. So you started realizing your faults better than her. Yeah.

Or at least what was vocalized. Yeah. And I think we men know this. When somebody believes in us and raises the bar that we're not even there yet, we want to become that guy.

And I became a better man because she started speaking life rather than, she started cheering rather than booing. I was afraid to do that because I felt like Dave would think I was satisfied and it would enable him to stay the same. And doggone it, we don't want our men to feel that way.

Yeah, never. I'm sorry, but that's just so funny. I know.

It's this warped view that God, for me, God had to get ahold of me. And we're kind of into a bit of the solution side. And we're going to have you guys come back next time. We're going to cover more of this. But I want to, if I could reel you back in a little bit, because I know it's painful.

You're looking at me like, why are you doing this to you? Okay, I'll go anywhere you want. But you're not going back to the dance thing, are you?

No, not all the way back there. But the idea of what some of the issues you face, because I think as I read the book, you experience what most couples experience. And I want to go to the neck problem because I think this is really good right at the end of today.

Wow. Describe the neck problem. I think a lot of people are assuming they know what it means, but from both of your perspectives, what was the neck problem? And then we'll talk about what the solution to your neck problem was.

I'll let Ann describe it from her side, but I'll tell you this. This was the first chapter we wrote of the book. And it was not supposed to – Way to go right to the weakest part. I mean, it was never going to be in the book. Never did we discuss, let's talk about this problem.

And Ann wrote that chapter before anything else, which was so vulnerable. I'm like, oh, boy, here we go. So tell us. We're going to talk about that.

Go ahead, Ann. Well, Dave and I were on staff with CREW. And as part of CREW's spring break, you go to the beaches in Daytona and you share the gospel with people. And so Dave and I were talking on the beach.

We're standing on the beach as a married couple, first year of marriage. And Dave's talking to me and I'm talking to him, and suddenly he can't help but turn his neck following these pretty girls in their bikinis down the beach. And so I'm like, hey, I'm right here. He goes, I know.

I said, but you're following these girls and watching these girls in these bikinis. He goes, no, I'm not. I said, yes, I'm watching your eyes go down the beach. And so that was the start of realizing, whoa, Dave has a neck problem. That's what she called it. And I honestly denied it.

It's our first year of marriage and I've had this problem my whole life, but I don't know it. And she says, you actually, when we're in meetings, when we're in events, a woman will walk by and you'll follow with your eyes. I'm like, no, I don't. And it was one of those things like, okay, I've got to see if I do. So you didn't even realize it. I didn't even realize it. That's interesting. I honestly denied it.

And we were new in our faith. She brought it up a few times and I'm like, you know, I do not. And then one time I'm at an event and I'm like, I'm going to, I did. Oh, my gosh.

And there was like a fight not to follow some attractive woman. I'm like, it was one of the first times in my life, like, oh, my goodness, this is a real problem that my wife pointed out. And now I've got to deal with it. So at least with that, you had credibility. I mean, what she was saying was true.

And so where did that go? Well, it's interesting. In the book, we have the neck problem and perspective. And then after she wrote that, I said, I need to give my perspective. And I walked back through the neck problem becoming a pornography problem, which, again, never thought we'd put in a marriage book.

But it's really honest and real. And I walked through that journey in my own life that began as a teenager. Now is in my marriage. Now is a decade into my marriage. And it's something that didn't just go away like that or something like that. You would have time so it would pop back up. It wasn't a consistent thing in our marriage. And I think so many people experience that.

It comes and goes. I'd win and I'd lose. And she was a part of that. She knew. Dave, let me put some perspective around that. And again, I don't have the numbers right at my fingertips. Even men in the church, something like 50, 60 percent of men going to church are experiencing some use of pornography or maybe addiction. It certainly would be in that number. And those numbers are really rising among women. That's huge.

Yeah. For the guys listening, Dave, what gave you the final victory over that? How did you say, OK, enough is enough? Oh, it was really I love my wife.

I want to be a dad to three sons that's honorable. And I can't carry this anymore. So you had to correct that decision-making.

Yeah, I just got to get help. And it was amazing that he told me. And this became something I think that it's just a brave thing to do.

Well, it is. But at the moment, back to your response, let me say, most women, you do, it's an amazing capacity that women have. And that is to say, what have I done? How come I'm not enough? And you had that fear anyway, right? Physically, am I attractive today?

Speak to that tenderness of a woman's heart because you go right to it. Exactly. And I think most of us as women do feel that insecurity anyway because we're always in comparison to the world.

And especially with social media today, we're comparing ourselves to millions of women around the world. And I think what it caused me to do is it caused me to go before God and say, God, who am I? You know, am I enough?

And so to almost, it's kind of that vertical concept of going to God first. God, what do you say about me? Who do you say that I am? What do you want me to know about who I am and how to respond to Dave? And I did not do that well at first. But I think as I began to understand and even talk to Dave, that this isn't because you're lacking anything.

This is my deal. And so it became more of a partnership. And I wish I could say I responded well every time. They were kind of going back and forth of well and not too well.

Yeah, and that's reasonable. I think people listening, you're both growing. But, you know, at the end here, I need to ask you, some women would choose to leave. Having the hindsight now of all the years behind you and fighting through this.

And we'll pick up next time with the tools in which you do this with and your other battles. I mean, this is a great book, Vertical Marriage. But we're on the core message of the book right now, which is to find your identity in Christ, not in your spouse. But in that time space where you are deciding, I'm sure, is Dave the guy for me? Have I made a big mistake?

With all the years of experience, the growth that you've experienced as a couple in Christ, looking back on that, was it worth holding on? So worth it. I think the beauty is that I know Dave.

The ins and outs. I know everything about him. And I still love him. And isn't that the gospel?

He knows all of my flaws, all of my weaknesses, and chooses, maybe not always feels like it, but he chooses to love me. And that, to me, is the beauty of marriage. And I would just add, it is worth fighting for.

It's so worth it. It was and is a fight. And there were days we wanted to give up. I wanted to give up. But now, yeah, looking at grandkids, a legacy, it was worth it.

It still is. Well, I so appreciate that ringing endorsement for marriage from our guest, David Ann Wilson. You know, far too many couples experience the inevitable challenges of conflict, pride, lust, and fear.

Maybe not all of them, but certainly one or two of them, perhaps. And then they walk away from their relationship rather than allowing God to work on their hearts and heal their marriage. If you and your spouse are struggling, Focus on the Family is here to help you. We have a great team of Christian counselors.

Let us connect you with one of them. Just make that call to Focus on the Family, and we'll set that up. We also have Hope Restored, where we provide intensive counseling over several days.

Typically, it's four days for husbands and wives who are ready to quit. Many of those couples have signed divorce papers. And here's the good news. I'd say the great news. Four out of five of those couples who attend Hope Restored are still together two years later and doing much, much better.

Yeah, it's remarkable what God does at Hope Restored. And so contact us today to learn more about those marriage intensives or to ask about our counseling team and find other resources, like Dave and Ann's book, Vertical Marriage, the one secret that will change your marriage. All of it available when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459.

Or we've got the details in the show notes. And as we often say, Jon, we can get a copy of Vertical Marriage out to you for a gift of any amount. If you can do it monthly, that really helps the budget. But a one time gift really helps as well. So please consider a generous gift to focus on the family today and help us give families hope here at the end of 2024. Again, our number is 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459.

Or we've got the details in the show notes. Well, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm Jon Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Make purpose at WaitNoMore.org. No act is too small to a child or fostering family that needs your help. Learn more at WaitNoMore.org.