This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. We're grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. To learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Showing somebody perfection is not actually how you lead people, right? And if I want to lead my family correctly, then I need to show them all parts of me.
And the vulnerable part is what actually started to change my relationship with my kids. And that's when they noticed the switch. I didn't break it up. They brought it up. And it's funny that we laugh about it now, but it was a switch for them.
And it's completely different now. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is Family Life Today.
All right, so it's men's day at Family Life today, and I've got the most manly men in the whole city of Orlando City. He knows you do. Do I? He does the pander. George said, Yes, we do.
I'll take that. That was George Rosario. How do I say your last name? Rosario. That's the American version.
What is this? Rosario, isn't it? Rosario. Rosario. Wait, wait, say that again.
Rosario. And then we got, you know, we got Brian Goins over there. I bet I could say.
Well, yeah, it's pretty easy. That's easy. And Duron George. Tell our listeners, and you know, hopefully they're watching right now because, you know, this is such a pretty. Pretty table.
You know, my wife did a women's panel. I don't know. What do you think? Manly table is pretty. Manly men around pretty table.
How about just a strong table? Yeah, strong table. Yeah. All right, Duron, how many kids? I have four kids.
How long have married? I've been married for 12 years. Boys, girls? One boy, three girls. Ask him how many PhDs he has.
That was the voice of God coming in from the control room. That's Bruce, our audio engineer. PhDs? More than one? I have one, and I'm working on a second one right now.
Really? And what? Yeah. So my first one is in global leadership.
So I spent three years traveling around the world doing leadership. And then the next one is in public theology and community engagement. Whoa. Public theology. Very learned man.
He got next to you. Yeah, I feel really dumb right now. No, it's still the dumb chair. I was pretty close. I don't think so.
I don't think so. George, what do you have? I have three boys, 20, 19, and 16. They're married 25 years this year. Oh, man.
Congrats. Yeah, praise God. Yeah. No PhDs. No.
Oh, man. Me neither. Yeah. Brian. We pale.
We pale over here compared to Deron. Just did a wedding. Yes, we did. Just did. We have been married 29 years to Jen.
We have got three kids. 26-year-old daughter who just got married, January. Oh, wow. Got a 22-year-old son. He just got married as well back in May.
So my kids were kind enough to get married, two of them in one year. I don't recommend that. Whoa. They got engaged within 24 hours of each other. That was not kind.
And then I've got a 17-year-old son that we have forbidden to marry this year.
So he can't get there.
So he's got to wait. Yeah, he's got to wait. Raise your hand if you've ever forgotten your kids somewhere.
somewhere. Really? Two out of four of us, George, you and I, man, we must be on another level. What's that look like? What do you mean you forgot him?
Hey, sometimes schedules are wild. And that's like, well, somebody forgot to pick him up.
Somebody better hurry. I love that he doesn't blame. Yeah, that's right. That's right. We left our.
This is going to sound really bad, and it's not. Like, right when I say it, it's going to sound like you guys are somebody's getting nervous. We left our, he was probably a toddler. He was definitely a toddler. He was in a car seat, and we left him in the back of the car.
Fortunately, it was not hot. It was cold. We were Christmas tree shopping. And so we had a bunch of kids and we were with other families. They're not shopping.
We were like cutting down our trees. This is old school. We were going up in the mountains of North Carolina, chopping down our own tree. And when we say chopping, we mean picking it out and letting a guy with a chance all come. And so we all go to this restaurant.
And for some reason, I don't even remember, but Jen and I were in some moments of intense fellowship. You know what I'm saying? And so we were at each other's odds a little bit. And everyone got out of our car and we walk into the restaurant, both a little frustrated, both closed the doors. We walk in.
And then we sit down and we look at each other and like, where's gi didn't you get gifts out? And that turned into another fight. Stop it. You're getting me thrown in jail for this. I know.
It wasn't long, though. It was like a couple minutes, but he just stopped in the back seat. And it wasn't hot.
So that's why I said, no, I know. Just in case you're wondering, Fame of Life does not endorse this kind of parenting. That is not what happens. But I actually did the same thing. Did you really?
The police showed up at my house. Oh. Yeah. I didn't forget. I intentionally ran, I'm going to run in, I'm going to run out of grocery store.
He was asleep. You know how you're like, I'm going to take him out of the car. And this was way back there when stuff like that. And I ran in and came out and didn't think, oh, as I was walking to the car, I heard over the loudspeaker, there is a child in a car. I just got in my car, drove over him.
And here, you won't believe this. I go that night to play basketball or something. And while I'm gone, a policeman comes to our house. To check on my character. And the only thing that saved me is Ann.
I told Ann. And the fact that if you hadn't prepped her. If I hadn't told her that I made, I said, honey, I made a huge mistake today. Nobody will ever know. But, and if I hadn't told her, I think I'd been, he was like, I'm, if you, your husband told you, that means he's, he made a mistake.
But yeah, crazy. I thought I was the best guy at this table. I guess they feel better about that now, right? I didn't have, I didn't have a cop, but it could have.
Okay, let's, let's talk parenting. Yeah, what are we talking about? Why are we, are we just true confessions as dads right now? Yeah, a little bit. No, I mean, we get to have a conversation that I, you know, I know a couple of things are going to happen.
There'll be some guys listening and hopefully they're going to learn not to do what we do. But there'll be a lot of wives that are hopefully understanding even how we think and operate as men, as husbands and dads.
So I want to tackle both areas. Since we're talking about kids, let's start with parenting. What do you have in terms of regrets? I think time, like, I wish I would have spent even more time with my kids. I mean, you still get them in the home, right?
Still at home. And then now I'm like trying to push them out. At least the oldest ones. But yeah, I think work, I was working a lot of hours back in the day. Not to say I wasn't spending time with my boys, but I don't know.
I just feel like time goes by so fast. And I wish I would have known that because I would have said a lot more and maybe trained a lot more. But yeah, I think that's one of my regrets. Yeah. So I would say around the same.
So there was a particular time around from 2018 to 2020 where I work probably 80 hours a week. My kids didn't see me. I missed birthdays and everything. And then it came to a head when my youngest, well, she's not my youngest anymore, it's the eight-year-old. She's like, Dad, I never see you.
And that broke my heart. And that's when it changed. But I was in that mode where I got to provide for my family, I got to make sure everything's okay, I got to take care of the bills. I like all the weight was on my shoulders, so I was like, Well, I'll just work, and that's what I did. And that was a two-year period where I just felt like I missed them growing up, and I do regret that.
So, you get the same regret, Brian. You're the same or different. I could have that regret. I've got a list of them. We can go counseling.
We're getting true confessions here. When I think about, man, there's a lot that you can feel. And I think every dad feels a sense of he's never going to be enough, you know, which is just true. And I think because we're fallen people, right? I remember scarring Palmer as a kid.
We were wrestling, you know, like on the bed or something. And I remember. How old was he? He was probably two, you know, and I remember, I remember we were like wrestling and I felt my thumb kind of enter in right here by his eye and he kind of yelped a little bit. And I looked and there's like this half moon little cut from my, and I just sat there and I went, that's not going to be the last time I scar him.
And the scars that I regret are those that are kind of on their heart. Emotionally. You know, whether it's because of a word or just something you say or not say in a moment. Have you had spiritually, you know? I didn't pour into them enough spiritually.
I probably feel that more than you've got older kids. Have you had any of them come to you? As they got to be adults, and my kids are, my oldest just turned 40.
So I'm the old man here. Yeah, you are. But have you had your kids come to you? Did you say, yeah, you are? That was George.
Hey, edit that out. Bruce, take that out. I just thought of, I just thought about my biggest regret. Oh, you got another one. Yeah, and it ties into what you're asking now because it was my oldest.
He was uh a l a little older. But I remember he told me, Dan, I thought you were perfect. And I remember hearing that, and it hit me so hard. It was like, yeah, like this weighty thing. I was like, wait, I never wanted my son to think that of me.
And I realized in that moment, like, I haven't been transparent with my boys. And to me, that equated to not showing my sons that I need Jesus. Yeah. And that that to me is my big was my biggest regret because now I tell them all the time like your dad messed up again.
So I've learned that that that's important to be transparent with my boys about my failures and my sin and my struggles. You know, as a pastor, I have definitely felt the tension of serving marriages in our church. I mean, it's a passion of ours. And, you know, couples aren't falling apart, but they're not really connecting either.
So things can look fine on the surface or on the outside, but there's. Always some drift happening for sure underneath. And you see this as a leader, and you know, marriages need support, but figuring out what to do. Often it can feel overwhelming.
So we've walked with a lot of churches through this and most just need a simple place to start. And we have that for you.
So if you thought about doing a marriage event but didn't want to build it from scratch, this is a great way forward. When you purchase 10 or more workbooks, we'll include the full video study. Just use the code strong families. Did you hear that? Strong families.
That's one word. Yep. Through June 30th. And you can go to familylifetoday.com and click the link in the show notes and just again enter the discount code strong families. Let me tell you, strong families don't happen by accident.
Sometimes all it takes is one intentional step to help couples reconnect again. I'm Sergei Sir. probably sometime. It's been a while. We found pornography on our computer.
This is way back before digital devices, a home computer, which, duh, it's in the basement. Yeah. Okay. First pro, it should be wherever I can see it.
So my oldest is, I think, 12 or 11 or 12.
So three boys. And I didn't know who did it. Actually, Ann found it. And her first question was: It was a user. Is this you?
And I'm like, it's not me. And I'm not lying. It's not me.
So now I'm like, and I remember thinking. What will my response be as a dad if my son ever starts down that road? And here it is.
So then it's like I gotta do a little investigation. We find out it's one of my sons.
So we go down, and I'll never forget. And I are sitting on a couch. He's on the other side. And he said, Yeah, that was me. And he felt really bad.
And here's my moment. Yeah. Like, and I thought I'd probably get pretty mad. Like, okay, we gotta, you know. You know what my moment was?
I cried. Yeah. And it's what you, Georgia made me think of as I said, I've been down this road. You just opened Pandora's box. This opens a world that doesn't go away easy.
And I want to be your dad to be with you.
So it was a moment where I get to say, I'm weak. I have been there. It isn't something that just goes away. I still have to, you know, fight that. Let's fight it together.
But man, you're right. Had you shared that with your sons before? Not till then. And I remember asking that same son that he was in middle school. I said, how many, he was on the wrestling team.
I said, Ceda, how many of your wrestling buddies look at porn? No, he said. This is in the 80s. He said, everybody, every kid. He's in a public school.
Every kid, I'm like, and we're talking magazines, right? It's like, wow. And, you know, think about where we are now. Yeah. We are, we're handing them a device that can carry that.
But I think what you just said, I mean, that vulnerability of being a dad that is weak and shares that sort of like let's go on a journey together is a good thing, right? Yeah. So that's something I had to learn.
So my kids have a saying for me. They say they had two different dads. The first one they call Prime Dad. And Prime Dad was nothing cracks, everything's perfect. I don't make any mistakes.
You're prime. Yeah. A year or so ago, it was like a light just switched. And I was like, what am I doing? I'm setting them up for failure because.
Everybody has issues, and if they don't see that, then when they get older, man, I'm going to be in a world of hurt trying to help them navigate.
So, what happened to you a year ago? Why'd you flip that? I just, I just think it was just me maturing, just realizing that it. Showing somebody perfection is not actually how you lead people, right? And if I want to lead my family correctly, then I need to show them all parts of me.
And the vulnerable part is what actually started changing my relationship with my kids. And that's when they noticed the switch. I didn't break it up, they brought it up. And it's funny that we laugh about it now, but it was a switch for them, and they are completely different now. Yeah, well, you know, when I said regrets, all three of you said I wish I'd spent more time.
Like time flies by.
So I immediately thought. How's that apply to your marriage? Have you heard the same thing from your wife? Or do you feel the same way? She wishes she had less time with me.
That's how I feel. How about you, George?
Some of that is because I was spending so much time with my wife. We did that right. We would spend a lot of time and prioritize our marriage. And that came from a time of, you know, when babies are first born, I think, especially moms are like, dad, you were like, dad gets no attention.
So I think we were just like recovering and making up for that too. Cause it's just the reality. The babies really need the parents and the marriage kind of takes a back seat sometimes.
So we were spending a lot of time, and we still do. We love the kids now, like mom and dad first. We'll get some attention later. But yeah.
So I think that's. I mean, Duran, you said earlier you worked 18 hours a week. Oh, yeah. It almost cost me my marriage. I was going to say, when your wife is over there going, hey, we moved down to Florida with just me, her, and Kids, no support system or anything like that.
She's never left the state she was born in, which was in Indiana. Wow. Um, so I move her a thousand miles away from her family, and I immediately start working 80 hours a week. She looks at me one day and she says, I can go back home and be a single parent. Yeah.
That feels good. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think I'm doing everything right. We got the house.
We got the cars. Physically on the house that everybody's taken care of. It looks good. But. It was crumbling.
I mean, was that comment enough to wake you up, or did it take a little more? It was not enough to wake me up, but it was enough to get my attention. But it didn't last because work still needed to get done, so I just kept working. It wasn't until my eight-year-old now that came and said, I miss you. I'd never see you.
Yeah, and then I was like, okay. Yeah, because at first I was like, my wife doesn't understand what it takes to take care of the bills and make sure everything's good.
So I kind of blew it off. I'm like, you just don't understand the weight. Yeah, yeah. But then you have your now, do you guys think there's something in us as men that drives us To work like that. And I'm not saying we all do 80 hours, but there's, I've noticed, at least in me and other men, man, we, we, we go hard.
Yes. There's like this drive to accomplish and succeed or whatever the job is. And it's almost, and again, I'm talking personally, so maybe this isn't your story. But there's almost like, hey, you're good, right? As a wife and as the kids, you're good, right?
Please be good because I got some over here. Yeah, yeah. Have you struggled with that? From, I think. I would say most men probably.
It's not my story.
So, when I say spend time, I meant like quality time. Yeah. Because my sin is passivity. I'm very passive naturally. I have a natural inclination just to be passive.
I'm not as driven. As most men around me, probably because I didn't, I never had an example of what that looked like growing up. You know, my dad wasn't around, I didn't have a good male role model. I say this all the time: I think I was discipled into passivity. Yeah, because of my surroundings.
It just wasn't anybody being intentional to pour into me.
So I think I also Was training my kids into passivity because that's all I knew. Yeah. You know, so for me, it wasn't the drive, it was the lack of, it was the unintentionality that I think. Cause that problem with me and my boys. Yeah, do you guys experience that?
Is passivity a thing? Yeah, it's fun. I think even in a drive, you're passive. What do you mean?
Well, even if you're driven, you're passive about the things that really matter.
So it's like you can still be totally driven. You were driven, Darren, about getting PhD, getting, you know, leading, traveling the world, but then you were passive with the things that you'd go, I value my wife, I value my kids, but I'm passive. I'm not taking time with them. And so I think that's the underbelly of laziness is that I can be lazy with stuff that matters. And so even if you're driven, I think you can be passive.
And I can definitely relate with George as far as like you can lean back rather than lean in, whether it's with work or with kids or. Or, wife, yeah, I know for me, it was spiritually. Like, that was where, if I, if you were going back to the question about regret with my wife, I mean, for 23 years of our 29 years, Jen would have said the number one thing on her prayer list was that she would have a husband who would pray with her on a regular basis. And we'd pray before dinner and big decisions and all that, but we just wouldn't. I knew that was part of her love language.
I knew that's how she wanted to connect with God and with me. I just felt totally intimidated by it. Yeah. Because I didn't have much of an example or a disciple. I always heard, pray with your wife every day.
Like, I heard Dennis Rainey say that every day. Like, that was his biggest success. He was the founder of Family Life. And I would feel totally. Insecure about that.
And you wouldn't feel insecure praying with guys. No. Or leading a Bible study or praying from the stage. Praying with Jim. Yeah.
What is it? Do you know? I think it's because I felt like I was having to perform. Do you guys experience that? Because I have felt the same thing.
My wife has shared with me that she felt that pressure when we started to pray together. She felt the need to pray the way that I prayed. Oh. Right. She felt like I prayed these really lofty prayers.
And I was like, for me, the struggle was. I've always loved my alone closet time. And I felt like that's my time. I don't want anybody in that time, even my wife, which is crazy to say. But when we started to pray together, it was like, It's like you're exposing everything.
That's the challenge, right? Because it's like this is an intimate space, right? And it's like, why wouldn't I invite my wife into this intimate space? But yeah, I don't know, man. It's crazy because it is, you have to overcome that hurdle, whatever the fears are, whatever those preconceived ideas are that you have to pray a certain way in front of your spouse and perform.
It's just not even real. And maybe because it's so intimate is why they love it. Yes. They want emotional connection, which is heightened when we go vertical with them together. And there's part of me that gets afraid of that.
I felt the same thing you said, Brian.
So like, I can pray with any guy. I can walk up on stage. And you've heard my story when Ann said she was at church that morning. And that night, she said, I wish the man that led our church lived here. Wow.
And when I asked her, and I didn't understand what she meant, and maybe you've heard this, but I just turned to her and said, What do you mean? She goes, I watched you today. You're preaching with passion. You're casting vision. And then you pray with this like real relationship with.
God, and you can, and she says, She goes, and you come home, you're just a dud. She literally said, dude. And I responded really well. Yeah, jumped up. I bet you repented.
I always thought of it. Honey, you're right. No, I mean, I said something like, I know the men in this church, and you got the best one right here. Anyway, but the truth is, the only reason I'm sharing it, because our listeners have heard that. Yeah.
She was right. Yeah. Absolutely. She was right. I didn't realize it till the next day when I got alone with God, but I'm like, I need to step up in the home.
I don't need to step up in my job. I'm bringing it there. I'm not bringing it here. Have you felt that? Like, she, and I would really love to know what is.
Spiritual companionship, partnership, leadership look like for you guys as husbands and as dads? I think for me, the fear was that she knows me. She knows what I struggle with. She knows the intricacies of it. And so sometimes it felt like, man, does she believe what's coming out of my mouth?
Because we just fought 15 minutes ago and I'm sitting here praying. And does she actually believe what I'm saying?
Well, I believe what I'm saying.
So I think it was that fear that she knows me better than anyone, which is great. But at the same time, there was that fear of, man, I'm trying to lead you spiritually, but then you know all of my struggles. You know what I deal with and what I fight with. That made it really, really hard in the beginning. Real hard.
And I think with time it it's changed, but that was my struggle in the beginning. How about you guys? Like the spiritual leadership or partnership with your wife?
Well one Saying, babe, I'm struggling. Pray for me. It's empowering. It's also like it promotes trust. I remember when I first started sharing with her Man, guys, I was battling in my head.
I remember having thoughts of wanting to go. Watch porn. This was a few years back. And I was like, why do I need to tell this to my wife? I didn't do the act.
You know what I mean? But the Holy Spirit was saying, no, you need to tell her. And I remember the first time I told her, I was expecting the judgment and the, well, let's solve this and let's do all the things. And I just didn't want any of that. Her response, though, was wow, babe, like.
Thank you for sharing that. And there was some of the what can we do to prevent what are the boundaries and stuff. But the starting to practice that has deepened our prayer time together, even our intimacy together. And it's um. Just like trusting my wife.
Isn't that interesting? That what you just shared, a lot of guys wouldn't think that's leadership. You led by sharing a struggle. Yes. That's they, I mean, they're and the kids too.
Yeah. They need to see that. Yeah. You know?
So yeah, I think too often, and I think we put this weight on leadership as like this sense of you've got to set yourself up. Whereas Jesus modeled that sense of a leader is somebody who steps down. A leader is somebody who steps down and shares their vulnerability.
Somebody who steps down and shares their struggles, their weaknesses, and says, How can we do this better together? You know, it's not out in front and setting a pace as much as it is. Really stewarding this culture, this family culture, my relationship with you, and my relationship with you. I'm not the key word, it's a partnership. What a great day on the men's panel.
We're going to talk tomorrow as well, and it gets in, we get in some deep stuff tomorrow. We know life is full of challenges, and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn't that true? That is true. And as a Family Life partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events, and resources.
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