Pastors, if you're struggling to help couples in your church whose marriage is in trouble, we can help. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains lay people to mentor married couples. Each kit includes two training guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with couples who need help. Go to marriage911.com. That's marriagethenumbers911.com.
Be thinking about the material. What financial decision would express best my love for my spouse? How can I organize money in a way that would be good for our relationship? And if they can organize their use of money around making the difference that God uniquely had in mind and bringing them together in marriage, that will set them on a very, very good path.
Well, that's personal finance writer and speaker Matt Bell, and he joins us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, and thanks for being here. You know, John, last time we had a great conversation about the early years of marriage and finances, and everybody went, yay! Most people don't say that, but most people do need to pay attention to that, especially as you're engaged and deciding, okay, how do we do these things? You got to talk about money.
And we covered that last time. If you missed the program, go hear it from the website, or you can get the smartphone app and have access to all the programs right there.
So we're going to continue the discussion today and get more practical advice on how couples can really tackle the issue of financial problems. Yeah, and Matt is an expert in biblical money management. He's managing editor at Sound Mind Investing, which is a Christian company to help people invest successfully in order to carry out their own. For their family and live generously. And today, we're going to explore more insights from his book called Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do Through Your Marriage.
Matt, welcome back to Focus. Thanks so much. It's really great to be here. Yeah, you know, again, people respond to these programs because I think it's where so many people are living. You know, we're having some difficulty, we're not sure quite what to do.
So, again, let me encourage you to get a hold of us, get a copy of the book, talk to one of our Karen Christian counselors, whatever you need. Let's get into it, though. You and Jude were living in Chicago.
Sorry. I'm sorry. I don't want to tease all our Chicago listeners. But you had a hefty property tax bill. How did you manage that?
If you're willing, what was the amount and how did you dig out of it? Yeah, it was $1,000 a month. And this was not even a large house. For how many months? Every month.
Yeah, every month.
Well, it was, yeah, every month.
So $12,000 annual property tax bill. And when I first got That bill, I was shocked. I guess I just hadn't really done the homework of what we were getting ourselves into. That's big. It was huge.
In fact, when I saw the bill the first time, I thought maybe one of our kids had been kidnapped and this was a ransom note. It just seemed crazy high. But that was a wake-up call to me because we had to really scramble to come up with the money for the property tax bill. But ever since then, we've been taking 1/12th of the annual amount of all of these kind of what I like to call periodic bills or expenses, things you're spending money on sometime during the year, but not necessarily every month, and we're setting it aside into savings so that when the bill comes due, the money is there. This is a great thing to do for vacations, for Christmas gifts, for the annual home insurance bill, the semi-annual car insurance bill.
If you can put aside 1/12th of the annual amount of all such bills and expenses, and then the money will be there when the bill comes due, and that's a beautiful thing. You know, we, and I agree. I mean, it takes a little discipline. I think Gene and I did the old envelope thing. Yeah.
Early on. Yeah, very effective. Just put actual cash in envelopes and then we did start stealing from here or there. But, you know, as long as it works, right? You're not going over anything.
I mean, it's really just it's right there for you to see and to feel and to touch. Right. But part of that was paying off those semi-annual or annual payments regularly. You know, just tuck it in that envelope and then Go turn it into the checking account, write the check for it. Yeah, it was one of the most freeing things that we did: this idea of setting aside 1/12th of the annual amount of all these periodic bills and expenses.
I mean, if you take a vacation and then you figure out how to pay for it afterwards, that really puts a damper on the vacation. But if you go on a vacation and you've been saving for it month by month, it just adds a lot more peace and it's not a burden. How am I going to pay this off, right? That's right. You know, in that regard with the house, it's really important for younger couples, particularly.
That's a great goal, and that house becomes a great asset for you. If you hit something and you need to borrow against it, that can be something you can do. You want to not try, you don't want to do that. But, you know, again, your house and being owned is a great asset. The point I'm making there is states where the state tax is high, the real estate tax is high, like you said, $12,000 a year, you have to calculate that before you buy because it might be wise to continue to rent.
Until you can accommodate a $12,000 annual tax payment. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and there are a lot of expenses people don't realize when buying a house. I mean, for sure, you should account for the taxes, the upkeep on the house. That's a really big one.
When I look at people's budgets, I see time and time again either no money or not enough money set aside for both home repairs and maintenance and also for cars as well.
So that can be a real wake-up call for people when they see just how much it costs. Typically, I recommend 1.5% of the purchase price.
So you've got a $400,000 house, that's $6,000 a year for maintenance and repairs, so that's $500 a month. That sounds like a lot of money that maybe people weren't planning for, but that would be the better part of wisdom to purchase a house where you can do that. Yeah, let me say for an RV trailer or a boat, you can like quadruple those things. You know, Gene and I love camping, and so we progressed. You know, we did tents, and then we did eventually a fifth wheel.
And I was shocked at the upkeep. I'm sure I spent as much on maintenance as I did on buying the thing because I got a screaming deal on it. But man, it was always $600 to $1,000 to replace the converter, tires, chassis, suspension. I mean, you're going, I think they do this on purpose. They build those things to 80% of what's required.
Then you got to spend the extra 20% to make sure it's road worthy. Wouldn't be surprising. But what's that great saying about boats? Your best two days are the day you buy and the day you sell it. I was just thinking that.
But sometimes it's exciting for young couples and they overreach and do something like that and don't count those costs. And you really need to. Really important to do that work upfront before you get to the showroom. Talk to people who have owned it. Yeah.
Absolutely. That's the best thing. There's a great book on decision-making out there that is this funny kind of look throughout the book about how people tend to make bad decisions. And at the end of the book, the advice that he netted out the advice is exactly what you just said. Talk to other people who've made that decision and see how that worked out for them and what would they have done differently.
You know, this idea just struck me, but Gene and I have a will. I hope everybody has a will as well. Yeah. But you know, one of the things that we talked about is if we can afford to do those things, because camping was so big for our family, for Trent and Troy growing up. They love it.
They have said many times those were the best experiences of our family. And so, you know, as you get older and your kids get married and they have kids, what a wonderful thing if you can afford it. Yeah. Why not do that for your young adult? Children with your grandkids and maybe spring for that and take care of that so they can have those experiences if they can't afford it.
Would that be a good way to spend some money, perhaps? Absolutely. Without spoiling them. Yeah, I mean, and you said the keywords: as long as you can afford it, if you've got the wherewithal to set aside a certain amount of money for vacations, that tends to be the most satisfying way to spend money is having experiences together. In our household, I drive an older car by choice.
I would rather, you know, and that's an important skill: to learn to make trade-offs based on what's most important. I love to travel. I love the memories we've made as family, as a family, when we've traveled and had adventures together.
So I will happily drive an older car in order to make that happen. You recommend allocating 15% of our income into savings and investment. Could you cover those? 15% seems reasonable. A lot of companies give matching opportunities to a certain percentage.
That's right. 5%, 6%, 7%, 10%.
So in looking at That when you're kind of lean, what do you do as a young couple? Yeah, well, again, it starts with that orientation of the five things you can do with money. We step back from the circumstances where there's a lot of emotion and a lot of, you know, we can't possibly make this happen, sort of thing. And we say, we are committed to giving the first portion to the Lord's work in the world. We're going to save and invest the next portions, and then we're going to spend.
So it starts with stepping back and kind of creating this idealistic plan and then stepping into it. You might have to start with saving less, saving 5% of income, but be committed to growing that over time. But that 15% threshold, which is saving and investing, build that emergency fund first, build that big ticket item replacement fund, as I talk about in the book. Money you allocate for these periodic bills and expenses, that isn't extra savings. That isn't part of the 15%.
That should just be on your cash flow plan. You've got a $1,200 insurance bill that's $100 a month, so that's already there. But the 15% will help you build a sufficient emergency fund. And then once that's built, you can start to invest that money. Matt, you describe our spending types.
Now we're getting into the nitty-gritty. And this goes back to those common labels from psychology, the choleric, the sanguine, the phlegmatic, and then melancholy.
So let's hit those. The choleric. What is our financial connection to that personality type? Yeah. And the fact is, there are financial connections to each one of these temperaments, which I think is really fascinating.
I mean, I think temperament's a fascinating topic unto itself. If you do that as a couple, you discover how God has uniquely wired you. And it's just, once you figure it out, it's as if somebody's been watching you all of your life and they know things about you that you didn't realize other people knew.
So it's a fascinating discovery that you can do together. But the choleric is the type A, hard-charging, get-it-done, very disciplined sort of person. And financially, they can be really good at pursuing goals and tackling goals.
So if you've got a lot of debt and you're going to set a choleric on the path, Of getting out of debt, they will get it done. Every temperament type has certain financial strengths and certain financial weaknesses.
So the cleric can be so focused on getting things done that in a marriage relationship they can tend to run ahead of a spouse sometimes and maybe make investments without talking about them or make certain purchases without discussions.
So they need to slow down a little bit and make sure they're including their spouse. Oh, that's good.
Okay, let's move to sanguine. Yeah, the sanguine is the life of the party, outgoing, extroverted sort of person, sort of person. Everybody loves to be around the sanguine. On the strength side, financially, sanguines tend to be very generous. They tend to be very generous in giving to the Lord's work, generous in giving gifts.
They really take a lot of fun and value out of that. On the downside, financially, because like I said, each temperament has both a strength and a weakness financially, they tend to not take to the use of a budget. That's too analytical. Like an extrovert, I can relate to that.
So that is a flashpoint, obviously, in the marriage system. It can be, yeah, especially if people with very different temperaments, which is very common, come together in marriage. That can be.
So it's really helpful to understand that. You know, someone who's a melancholic temperament type really takes to the use of a budget, marry someone with a sanguine temperament type who really doesn't take to the use of a budget.
Well, hey, it would be the better part of wisdom to have the melancholic person take care of the budget, talk about it, kind of lead the discussions about it. Both need to be involved in setting goals and that sort of thing, but don't expect the sanguine to suddenly become an accountant. It's not going to happen.
Okay, and then what about phlegmatic? What about those folks?
So the phlegmatic temperament, this tends to be the most likable temperament of all four. They're very likable. They're very peaceable. They're very easygoing and kind of steady as you go. Employers love to have people with a phlegmatic temperament on the payroll because they will show up on time and they will get the job done.
They're kind of what the Bible might describe as the steady plotters out there. On the downside, I mean, this is both an A positive and a negative wrapped in one. They tend to be savers.
So it can be a good thing to save money, but they can tend to be kind of cheap as well.
So letting go of that money that they've saved can be a challenge for them. That's funny.
So are there good matchups here? Is this part of the premarital counseling? Yeah. You're choleric.
Well, you should be up with a phlegmatic. Yeah, I'm not sure that that's even possible. I mean, well, let me ask it that way. You can probably. Have a different approach, even though that may be your core.
That's what we would say with marriage counseling. I mean, these are your base operating systems, but you can learn new operating systems. Yeah, you can learn to manage it. Yeah, your temperament is not going to change over your lifetime, but you can learn to manage your temperament. You know, my primary is choleric, and so I can tell I'm very project-oriented.
I've had to learn, and believe me, I'm still learning, you know, people first, then projects. I've had to really learn that and don't run over people in pursuit of getting a project done.
So we can learn to manage these things, but our temperament, our core tendencies, typically don't change.
Okay, what do you think you are, John? I don't know. I was going to turn it back to Matt and ask him, but go ahead, just go. I think it's probably a combo, but I think I definitely have that sanguine thing. But I can be pretty pragmatic, too.
Yeah, well, we each have a primary and a secondary, and there may be elements of the other two in our makeup as well. But we typically have a primary and a secondary, and they Can show up in different circumstances sometimes. Maybe a high stress situation, you're more one than the other. Maybe in a purchase decision, you're more one than the other.
So it's a fascinating thing, you're not just going to get this done in one sitting. You're going to discover this over time. You know, so often in marriage, opposites do attract. I know it's an 80-20 rule. If you're saying, well, not my husband and me, okay, that's fine.
You may be the same. But generally speaking, opposites will attract in certain key areas. In counseling couples in finances, do you find that that is true with these four distinctions that opposites tend to attract? Absolutely. And especially spenders tend to marry savers, and savers tend to marry spenders.
And why did God do this? You know, and it's kind of fun when you're dating. Oh, this is fun. Kind of fun. Yeah, this person comes at money so differently.
Isn't that kind of cute and fun and sort of winsome? But then you get married, and those things that were so sort of fun are now serious.
Well, now the hard work of marriage starts, how to become selfless. That's right. Have a better attitude toward the opposite. Yeah, but if you can learn to manage your temperaments, where you learn to play to each other's strengths and kind of work around, manage around each other's weaknesses, that can be a really beautiful thing, but it's not the easiest thing, it takes time and intentionality. Yeah, you also speak to the delusions of dinkhood.
Yeah, so you got to remind us: what does dinkdom mean, and then what are those delusions of dinkhood? Right. So, dink is double income, no kids. You know, when couples come together, typically today both are working, and so it's very easy to start to envision the sort of life you could live with these two incomes combined.
Now, we just need one place to live, but we've got these two incomes, and you can start to dream of this really big life. Or you set patterns of expense that won't be sustainable once you have additional expenses coming to the home, like kids. That's right. And so, I remember sitting across the table from a couple where they had a big life going. A very nice house that required a hefty portion of both of their big incomes.
They had two leased vehicles, they had nights on the town, and then one of them lost their job. And now there's stress, now there's even some anger between them about the loss of the job and what that means to their lifestyle.
So I really encourage couples to go slow with a house purchase decision. Make sure that it's something you can truly afford. I've got certain principles I've come to over time. I'm just geeky enough to have run the numbers on a lot of different size households and different income levels. Choleric.
Exactly. With a secondary of melancholy.
So that really. Mr. Numbers. Yeah. So 25% of monthly gross income for the combination of mortgage taxes and insurance is pretty much the max that I think a couple can spend on housing.
All the better if it's more like 20%. And here's the kicker: I really encourage people to try to do that on one income. And people say, What? That's impossible. But I'll tell you, the best financial advice that Jude and I got when we were getting married is to base your lifestyle and major purchase decisions on one income.
So that's what we did. When we bought, we rented for the first 10 months, then we bought a condo, and the condo we could afford on my income alone. We wanted, we both had a vision of Jude being able to stay home with kids if God blessed us in that way. And so we were working toward that. But even if a couple doesn't have kids, if you're building your lifestyle on two incomes, it's a big problem and a big stress point if one of them loses their job.
So buy a house you can afford on one income and set your lifestyle accordingly. Hey, let me ask you, and this is serious, and I think it would have popped up in some young people's minds. Today, I mean, this fear that really exists in 20, 30-somethings about having children because they're so expensive. And they get bombarded with that. You're going to spend $250,000.
I don't know what the latest number is, but that was a number I saw from somebody. I don't know if they were pro-family or anti-family, but that number of $250,000 was the average amount a couple will spend zero to 18 on a child. And they get panicked. Where's that money coming from? But that's, you know, again, even if that's accurate, that's over 18 years.
So speak to that fear that is gripping so many young couples right now that more and more are deciding not to have children, which is antithetical to the Lord's blessing for us, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And what you just said makes all the sense in the world that you see these big numbers, but if you amortize that over time, it becomes a much smaller number. And in a really practical way, I tell couples, newly married couples, that, you know, because that often comes up: how much will kids cost?
And how can we prepare for that? But if you think about what you're spending money now on now, as a couple without kids, you're spending money on entertainment and certain types of vacations and certain other things, that those expenses will tend to change when you have kids. You know, kids, when they're really young, they don't have a lot of needs. You don't need to go on some fancy vacation and they'll be really happy with certain very simple things. Your money will get freed up in one area to be available for the next area.
So, in a really practical sense, you can make it work that way. But I think in a bigger picture sense, I mean, I can just speak to my own personal. Personal experience? I'm sorry. I can just speak from my own personal experience that.
Kids Sorry. It's the blessing. This is who's going to be with you when you're on your deathbed. This is what life is about. It's not about cars and boats and houses.
It's about the people that you bring into the world and teach them how to be lovely, hopefully God following people. I mean, that's where I get my greatest reward is through my boys. My marriage with Jude and our kids Those are the greatest joys, the greatest, most meaningful parts of life is our family. And so don't miss that. Don't read a headline about the cost of kids and then miss that.
So many regrets. I remember a time when money was especially tight. I was self-employed, I was writing and speaking, and there were a couple of events I did that then didn't end up getting paid for. And I remember being very stressed about it, and I remember getting up in the middle of the night and going and looking in. And our kids.
And I just thought. This is what it's about. You know, the bills will get paid. Things will work their way out. But don't miss the blessing that family is.
Don't miss the blessing that kids are. They're a ton of work. You'll be stressed at times. You'll be worried at times. And there's nothing greater.
There's no greater gift than family. I just. I so agree, obviously. But, you know, again, so many young people are gripped with that fear. And the spirit of fear is not from God.
And things do get met. Those needs get met somehow. That's right. Money shouldn't rule. One of the couples I interviewed, this great couple, I first met them when they were in their 20s and just out of college.
And both working in full-time ministry, and they were just this cool, fun couple to get to know, really doing things right from the very beginning. They thought they couldn't tithe, but they used a budget, a really practical tool, and found that they could. And now I caught up with them 15 years later. They've got three kids, one is severely disabled. And you think, boy, young kids, that's a stressful time of life unto itself.
But you you throw into the mix a severely disabled child. They would have every reason to be stressed. When I reconnected with them, they were so at peace. It was remarkable. And money isn't the only factor that leads to that peace.
But for them, financially, understanding each other's temperaments enabled them to, as they said, bend toward each other, to build greater unity in their marriage. And they also said that, you know, we know where our money's going and what's happening financially because we're using this crazy tool that people don't like called a budget that turns out to be very effective. But money doesn't rule. That's a value we've established in our lives, that if we go to a restaurant, we meet a server who clearly has some need and it's not in our budget to bless them with some extra tip, we're going to bless them with that extra tip. Money.
Sorry. Money doesn't rule. We manage money, we're good stewards with money, but money doesn't rule. You know, Ron Blue, who wrote the first biblical money management book I ever read called Master Your Money, he said, Don't plan God out of your finances. You know, we're called to be planners.
The plans of the diligent lead to profit, as surely as haste leads to poverty. But don't plan God out of your finances. You can plan and plan and organize and envision, but ultimately you've got to leave room for the leadings of the Holy Spirit.
Well, Matt, I can clearly see where this is connected with your emotions. And I love it because I think right at the end here, you have really. Probably done your most effective teaching for us, you know, in terms of perspective and thought and how to put it in the right order. And it comes right from your heart.
Well, you know, Jim, I I heard a quote recently that that It's been very Sorry. It's been very impactful. And that quote simply says, You always know when you're doing something for the first time You rarely know when you're doing something for the last time. Hmm. Yeah.
We can't take life for granted. Hmm. And we can't take the people that we love for granted.
So My encouragement to couples is to treat life like the gift that it is. and if they will orient their money. and their marriage. around glorifying God? As best they can around loving each other, use money, be thinking about.
What financial decision would express best my love for my spouse? How can I organize money in a way that would be good for our relationship? And if they can organize their use of money around making the difference that God uniquely had in mind in bringing them together in marriage, That will set them on a very, very good path. What a place to end. And, Matt, you've kind of brought the wood, as we say, in baseball lingo.
But thank you for investing the time to do the research to create this book and to help young couples, but all couples, really, better understand how to put money in its place and to do it well.
So, thank you for being with us. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Let me turn to the listener. I want to encourage you to get a copy of this terrific resource, Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage.
Matt's book is packed with great insights for couples. It even includes specific recommendations for things like savings accounts and investments that we weren't able to cover in detail today. And when you give a donation of any amount to focus on the family, we'll send you a copy of Matt's book to say thank you for partnering with us in the ministry. And if you can't afford it, get in touch with us and we'll get it to you and trust others will cover the cost. That.
Let me give you an example how every dollar counts. We're counting on contributors to help us strengthen marriages, equip parents, save pre-born babies, and share the hope of the gospel. Those are kind of the core themes that focus on the family. And when you contribute to Focus on the Family, you're providing help to parents and grandparents, like Susan from California, who wrote in to tell us this: My husband and I were having financial problems early in our marriage, and Focus on the Family provided resources and information to help us learn to manage our money. Then, when my youngest daughter was having a crisis pregnancy, I had her call Focus on the Family.
Someone at the end of the line said a lot of the right words to help her to know that abortion was not the answer. She ended up having our grandson, marrying his father, and having the best life ever. Our grandson is our bundle of love and joy, now two years old. Life is always the best choice. No regrets.
Thank you for being at the end of the phone when she called. Whew, that's getting me choked up. Take it away, John. That's why Focus on the Family is here, and that's why we need to hear from you to continue on the ministry.
So donate today and make a difference in people's lives and get a copy of this great book by Matt Bell called Starting Strong. All the resources that we have for you are available when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459, or stop by the show notes where you'll find the links. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Pastors, if you're struggling to help couples in your church whose marriage is in trouble, we can help.
Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor married couples. Each kit includes two training guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with couples who need help. Go to marriage911.com. That's marriagethenumbers911.com.
