Sometimes you feel crazy in love with your spouse. Other times your spouse might drive you crazy. And sometimes it's both all at once. Marriage is a wild ride, but it's a beautiful, grand adventure as well.
So navigate all the ups and downs and in-betweens with Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage, a podcast from Focus on the Family. I'm Erin Smalley, and I co-host the podcast with my husband, Dr. Greg Smalley. We sit down with amazing guests to talk about all things marriage, like how do we stay connected or how do we continue growing as individuals or as a couple? Each episode will help you tackle problems you may be facing or just help you make your relationship even sweeter.
Listen to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage and other podcasts from Focus on the Family at focusonthefamily.com/slash podcast. That's focusonthefamily.com/slash podcast. You want to make your homework. a really welcome place. for your kids to have their friends over.
And then you get to see what they're like and be the carpooling mom or dad. You know, where you're driving them places and they're gonna forget you're there and they have all these conversations going on. My wife was great with that and she learned a lot. That's Tim Shoemaker, and he and his son Mark join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for being here.
I'm John Fuller. You know, John, it is a great opportunity to find a way to communicate truth to your teens on some of those big conversations that you need to have. But today we want to discuss how to get your frame of mind in a place to identify when that opportunity comes, not just on that big talk, we always refer to it as the big talk, but all the other talks that need to be brought up about spiritual development and loving the Lord and how to treat people and all the sacred things that we want to communicate. Yeah, we have to be ready, as you said, and we have two great guests to help us understand how to have those conversations. Tim Shoemaker is an author, speaker, and writing coach, and he and his wife, Cheryl, have three adult sons, three daughters-in-law, and 12 grandchildren.
One of his sons, Mark, joins us today, and Mark is a campus pastor at the Bridge Community Church. In Illinois. And together, this father-son duo has written a book called What to Say and How to Say It to Your Teen: A Parent's Guide to 30 Tricky Conversations. And I will encourage you to get a copy of that book. Tim and Mark, it's great to have you on Focus on the Family.
It's great to be here. Yeah, definitely. It's fun. This is a great, I love these conversations because I think partly I'm eager to hear about it. I had that posture when my boys were younger.
I wanted to know, yeah, how are other people communicating with their children? What can I learn from it?
So that's the spirit in which we're providing this discussion today.
So when you look at 30 tricky conversations, is the one I just described the number one conversation? Or what would you say is the number one or two conversations when you look at tricky conversations? That's probably not even one that we'd make the book as far as.
Some of the things we have to talk to them about: there's cultural issues, there's those spiritual issues, there's spiritual life. We want to talk to them about. The whole aspect of dating, especially if they're teens. That's a big one. What does it look like?
Why do we date? When are you ready to date?
So many different things like that: their personal habits, their emotions, their anxiety.
So many kids are wrestling with that.
Some of these things our kids are going to hide from us, they're going to mask it. But they're thinking about it. We need to talk about it. Yeah. Let me ask you this.
I mean, we're getting into deep waters already. If a parent listening or watching doesn't have that relationship with their teenager, what are one or two things they can do to turn that? ship toward a relationship of trust for that young Team. Boy, if they don't have it, and I'd love to hear Mark's thoughts on that, but to me, if they don't have that, I'd be honest about it. I wouldn't just gloss over it like that isn't.
A thing, and all of a sudden try to be this great friend, and I'm there. You can't be just a friend. Yeah, so I think I'd fess up. I'd have that conversation, say, you know what, I feel like I haven't. Been there for these things, and I want to do better.
And maybe I would even ask. 13. For some ideas, I would certainly want to talk to some other, maybe some parents. In my case, I talked to my wife. Because she's going to have insight, say, hey, you know, if I've been missing it, and then another quick thing.
Jim is We have so many distractions, right? Mm-hmm. Maybe I've got to have it with my phone. I've got to put that away. It's time to build the relationship with your son or daughter.
Let me ask you this: when a teen breaks that trust, You know, the whole bond is built on trust. Hopefully, you as a parent are doing all the right things. But you know, there may come a time when that teen breaks your trust as a parent, they borrowed the car.
Something happened, they didn't tell you about it. I mean, it can be all sorts of situations again, or they went to the party. that you told him not to go to, whatever that might be. What do we do as a parent in that situation to Continue to build relationship, but also have the boundaries. Back to your, it's not being just a friend.
Yeah. What do you do, Tim? Reminds me of a time I'd messed up. I was 17. Have you heard the story, Mark?
I've only heard the story, but I actually don't know what's like in it or behind it. Right.
So I had messed up. It was like the worst mess up of my life to that point. And I. You know, I had thought I can get away with it. You know, I'd underestimated the conviction of the Holy Spirit, right?
And so then I confessed. I talked to my mom, and then, of course, there was going to be a talk with my dad. But the way my dad handled it. was so good. I saw he was disappointed.
He didn't yell. He didn't. Lose it. But I remember him, we sat around the kitchen table. My siblings were downstairs, you know, and he said, You know what?
I don't know if I should hit you or what, Tim. And in my mind, I'm thinking, hit me, hit me. I would feel better because I felt so guilty. I'd seen, I heard him. I saw the disappointment.
That to me was the worst thing. I had disappointed my dad. And It turned me. He may not have known it. And that would be encouragement for your parents too, I mean, that are listening.
My dad probably went to bed thinking he had He was a failure, you know, but he instead talked to me about. Not how bad I was, but Tim, this isn't you. This isn't the you that... I know you want to be. You made a bad choice, you know?
And boy, I wanted to build it back. I didn't want to disappoint him again. And so. Yeah, that was some experience I had with that. How a dad handled it?
He didn't have anything fancy to say. His love came through. Not anger. But also his disappointment. Oh, that's okay.
Oh, that was powerful. In the book, you use a scuba diving analogy about these tough conversations. How does that connect to this moment?
Well, when you take a dive, you generally have a goal. Maybe you're over a reef, you want to see fish, you want to see shark, maybe you want to see a wreck. There's always something you really want to do. And that can become the primary reason for your dive, but you've got to change that. Your primary goal on every dive has got to be to come back safely, you and your buddy.
And so anything else is secondary.
So when I'm down there, and maybe my judgment isn't as good. I don't want my first goal to be to find that shark or to find that whatever because I might. make a bad judgment. But if my first priority is to come back safely, me and my buddy, That changes. I might not see what I was hoping to see on this dot, but I'm going to come back safe.
Primary goal hit. Same thing with a conversation with our kids. Primary goal. You want to come back from this conversation, these tricky conversations. Safe, you and your team.
You know, you don't want to be burning bridges. You don't want to be taking shots at them. You don't want to bully them. You don't want to hurt the relationship. You want to build it.
Mark, and I love that analogy, actually. I'm not a diver, but I can grab the concepts. Mark, in those moments when parents have to have that tough conversation about something, a behavioral issue, an incident, whatever it might be, you can't let it go, shouldn't let it go, and need to use it as a teaching point. How do you, now you have kids too, right? All under 12.
So you're right around the corner. Yeah, I'm starting to get into this a little bit more.
So it's really good. And you're speaking to us from that perspective, both as the son growing up. Under Tim, and then the father who's about to enter the teen years with your kids being 12 and under. But in that context, how do you think a parent needs to frame it? for themselves as they go into those tough conversations because it's so easy to come out with conflict and that then becomes the beginning potentially the beginning of trouble in the relationship that could be end in rebellion over you know three four years yeah what how would you coach a parent to prepare themselves for that not just for conflict but for positive conversation I think some of it is the mindset going into it, that this isn't about.
winning an argument or being smarter in that moment. And so it's kind of just come to my side and I'll show it by just proving that I'm right in that moment. And so I think going into it with the objective, like he's saying, of coming back both of you together, but also What do I want them to really get? Where do I want their heart to be at the end of this? Knowing that This one talk doesn't have to be the full talk.
I don't have to move them the entire way in this conversation. Exactly to where I am right now, but this is a process. And so I think approaching with that mindset, making sure you're praying about it before you go into it, giving yourself time to prep, I think is huge. And really thinking through it, praying through it, talking to other people.
Well, what are my goals? What do I want to achieve in this discussion? Yeah, where do I want the heart to be in it? Yeah. It's hard to do because emotionally you're probably amped up because you're upset.
But man, the better way. Think of the Lord talking to people that were antagonistic to him. He is the son of God. And they're accusing him of being of the devil and other things. Think of the patience he needed to deal with these people.
I mean, you have no clue what you're talking about. And you know, um But he never really expressed it that way. You know, he would ask questions. Let me ask you this. I mean, in that moment, a parent can sound like a bully.
You know, trying to win the argument but lose the battle overall. What are some common phrases or habits we shouldn't employ in that moment? Just teach us what the don'ts are, and then we'll go to the do's. Anything that we would. do that would exasperate them, you know, pushing their buttons.
hitting them with a You always do this or you never do that. That's an easy one. Yeah, real easy for us to do. I think a real Don't that we have to be careful of is interrupting. It's Already thinking we know their motives behind whatever it was that they did.
And so we assign that motive to them, and we've already got them figured out. Hey, only God knows the heart. You might make a guess, but That exasperates our kids. If they think that You know, the jury is already fixed, or whatever, and that.
So these are things that we want to. I'll be careful. They're conversation killers. Yeah. And that is a form of bullying.
I don't know that this is mostly dads, but I think sarcasm is a really important one because I I think we go there, it's almost like relief to us to put it in that context. Belitting. What does that sound like, sarcasm toward a... teen in a moment of desperation. Oh boy.
It's like, here we go.
Okay. Like, I knew you were going to say that.
Some of it is sarcasm, even, I think, of like facial expressions, too. Where you. It's communicating, you're not really listening, and I'm like three steps ahead of you. And so that's, I think, what the sarcasm is doing. Then you're just shutting them down, really.
And you're really not gonna be able to really learn where they're at. And then what they actually need to hear from you, which is what's wild about that, with the sarcasm and some of those conversation killers, it does feel good for us.
Sorry, I kind of just jumped in here. No, I know that's good. No, no, no. You feel pretty good about it in that moment. But you're hijacking the conversation 'cause now they think you're not really listening.
And I saw this with students a lot, where then it's like, and now I don't actually know where they're at. And now I don't actually know what I need to say and what they need to hear and where to take this next, you know? And so, yeah. Let's hit some of the positive sides. I like the first one you talk about, pray.
Yeah. You know, I think when we're in the heat of the moment, even thinking of something that happened three days ago, as you begin to think of that interaction with your child, with your teen, your energy can come up.
So the idea of praying ahead of time. Um might not be The first thing you think about, but it probably is, I would say it definitely is, the first thing you should do. Beyond prey, then what's another of the to-dos? Another one is, and I think Mark mentioned it: get reinforcements. See if you can get somebody else to pray for you.
You only need one, but get a prayer warrior and say, hey, I'm going to have a tricky conversation. Would you be praying? For my heart? and for their heart. In this conversation.
I think that'd be. And then think about your atmosphere. Where are you going to have this conversation? And win because You think about it, you Pick the wrong place and time to do it, and your conversation just got a lot harder. And so much of that is the opposite of what we just talked about.
Put your phone away, resist the urge to interrupt. You know, it's the opposite of what we just said, you know. Yeah. And that's important. Yeah, I love the atmosphere.
One. How many times that that's helped me in our conversations when you talk to me about sex? I still remember we were driving to Wisconsin. You will always remember this conversation. I will.
And it was so helpful that we were driving because I could just look out the window your whole time. And I'm like trap. Yeah, I was all of a sudden very interested in the countryside, you know? Look at that tree. Look at that.
But it helps so much, you know, and we talk about that in the book. and try to offer different suggestions of When you're in different, you know, sometimes it's a restaurant, and I think that that communicates something. There's value that is shown to a teenager to bring them out and have a conversation there. Maybe it's a walk and you're. shoulder to shoulder and you're you're having that conversation there.
There's a lot of different thoughts that we've put into atmosphere? You know, one of the core things, and we've done a couple of shows with Heather Holloman. If you haven't heard those, I'd get the app and go listen to them because she's really good. She's a professor at Penn State. And she talks about effective communication, how to listen, how to ask questions that actually draw people's hearts out, which again is another Jesus trait.
But for a parent to do that with the teen, speak to the importance of understanding how to engage and listen without being three steps ahead. Don't go there. Just listen. How important is that? How do you do that?
Because I've already got the answer, Mark. Yeah, I think it's. Being a student of your kids as well as you know them on so many different things and A lot of our conversations here as we're trying to talk through how to have them Start with a good question to try to get them to talk about it. It feels a little bit like a softer entrance ramp into the conversation as well. We're not just coming in hot with what we want to say on it.
But we want to hear where they're at. And as they're talking about it, I'm not just thinking about my objective and where I'm going to take them, but. thinking really of the best route to get there based on what they're saying. based on what they're struggling with. Based on what their fears are, or maybe their understanding or lack of understanding of.
The Bible in that situation as they're talking about it.
So we're listening for all those things. to think about how best to answer. Yeah, that's really good. It is.
So I need some help for a friend, we'll say, who feels like during those years, those 10 years, there was a loss of respect. I needed to be I'm sorry, my friend needed to be respected.
So give me a script for reintroducing the respect that I would like to see in the conversations that we have. That doesn't happen. I get the eye rolls, the shutdown, the put down, the ugh. Yeah, you know, if you can go back and try to figure out when you started losing the respect, I think that would be an important thing. And sometimes, sometimes they won't tell you.
But if they see that you know it. you realize it and you know somewhere along the line I lost something. And I want to earn it back. And If you can help me, you know, what is dad missing? What have I missed here?
How can we build this back? But I'd also ask somebody else. You know, if you can ask your wife, if you can ask somebody else who might have some insight. Maybe you're going to go to the youth pastor. They might have opened up and they've said some things, and now.
At least you can know. Where to begin. Oh, it's so true. You know, the, I don't know if it's an idiom, an axiom, whatever. You know, respect is earned.
Mark, I'd love to hear from you in terms of how does a father Earn that respect rather than just expect it to be given because I'm your dad. Yeah. Do so because I told you to do so, kind of thing. I mean, there is a responsibility on our part as being the fathers to earn that respect from their kids.
Now, people are right now going, What? That should just be given. But I don't think so. I think if you're mistreating your child. You're saying they should respect that?
Right.
No way.
So for me, I think It was a few things, but it's seeing his daily habits, who he was, his character in and out, being real and authentic in all those moments of life. I think some of it, especially as I'm getting into teenagers, I'm seeing He's teaching me and taking time to teach me how to be a man, which means he's passing that off to me, which Helps me respect him more because now it's not a fight for me to prove myself to you. When I turned 18 and he made a big deal about it leading up into it, it was this rite of passage night and invited a bunch of men into the room and It helps me respect him when he's Encouraging me on my road to be a man, and he's talking like that to me. But he's got to be living it himself. He lived in a way, um.
And continues to that, I strive to want to be. As a student pastor, I saw parents and students wrestle with this a lot. And what was so sad is I would be hearing from the students. They wanted to respect their parents. That's what was grieving them.
It's like built into their heart. And that was like at the center of what was so difficult for them.
So while maybe the parents and me initially, all I'm hearing is the anger at all these things that the parents were doing or the dad was doing that was unfair or whatever. as harsh of a critic as they might have been as of their parent. At the core of that was just a disappointment of who they wanted them to be. And I will say, I did see. many times.
Parents earn that back, dads earn that back because They noticed it and they saw and they started new habits. I do think they're forgiving in that way. Not every time, and it might take longer in some situations than others, but I've seen it. I've seen that be built back up. Yeah, and it's so critical.
And, you know, this idea between behavior. engagement, if I could call it that, versus heart development. And it seems so subtle, but it's so important because if we're just on the behavioral modification, Do this, don't do that. And we're zapping the mice in our teenager. We don't get the heart.
They don't understand the whys. And I mean, it is so critical to explain the whys, the heart attitude, and to develop that. Because if you can catch that at the front of the fountain, the trailhead of the river, right? If you can catch that, then the behavior will come. And the scripture says that, you know, from out of the heart flows.
Your words and your life attitude.
So, the goal here, I think, for us as parents with teens is to teach the heart. and then the behavior should come as opposed to just concentrating on behavior. That's a that's all of it. And that's one of the reasons why we recommend having follow-up conversations afterwards. It might feel like a relief when you get through the conversation.
You're like, oh, good, we did that. But it's not just for the sake of having the conversation, it's the heart, and you want to see that.
So, a great way to. take the temperature of the heart is to come back to it later. And a week later, check in with a really good question. How's that going? How's that new habit you wanted to do?
Because we really do want to see the heart changing in that.
So true. You know, another area that we should cover is getting to know the friends of your sons and daughters. But to go out of your way, Gene and I, and I give Gene a lot of credit. She's great when the boys, you know, when their friends would come over, you know, she'd give them a big hug and say, it's so good to have you at the house. And we think the world of your mom and dad and all positive.
Yeah. And I think that just helps. It helps set an environment. And even with some of that, you know, having conversations with those friends that maybe those friends aren't even having with their parents. Yeah.
And you got to tread gently in that area, but it's nice to have that relationship. Speak to the importance of that. You know, I love what you said about with Gene and the kids being there, and you want to make your home a really welcome place. For your kids to have their friends over. And then you get to see what they're like and be the carpooling mom or dad.
You know, where you're driving them places and they're going to forget you're there. And they have all these conversations going on. My wife was great with that. And she learned a lot.
Now, let me ask right at the end here, the perhaps most important question for that parent with their teen. Everything we've talked about, they've winced. Oh, I did bully. I remember bullying. I remember using sarcasm.
I used it as an escape. I didn't know what to do. You know, whatever justification they're giving, and they're hearing this conversation going. Man, that's me. That's what I've done as a dad.
That's what I've done as a mom. What do they do to reset that with their 15-year-old today? I mean, tonight around the dinner table. What do we do differently? I would start with the apology there and to be able to acknowledge it and.
That does go a long way. Obviously, backed up by how you live and stuff like that. I'd be careful not to make grand promises of, like, I'm never gonna do that again or whatever, because then you're just gonna add to it when you do mess up again. But I think that humility. has a way of um Tearing down some of the walls of maybe resentment that have built up over time.
But that apology goes a long way, I think. I agree. Yeah, what would you do after that?
Well, then I'm going to make sure I remember.
So I'm going to write notes, and they're going to be cryptic. I know what they mean, nobody else does. And I've got one on my desk right now to remind me about something I want to work on. And so. You know, I'm going to have those reminders.
If I'm coming into the house or the kids are coming in, whatever, it's a time to remember.
Okay, go ahead. Help me have the heart. You know, I'm surrendering to you. Holy Spirit, work in me to be the man that I need to be for them, because this is way beyond me. This is about their heart and about their future and about their relationship with God.
All of that is on. The line because if we break those communication things with them, they'll talk to somebody, but just not us. Yeah, it's so true.
Well, this has been great. Tim and Mark, what a wonderful discussion and a great book, What to Say and How to Say It to Your Teen, A Parent's Guide to 30 Tricky Conversations. And we barely scratched the surface. Let me turn to the listeners. Focus on the family is here.
We're here to help you and your family to thrive in Christ. That's our goal. That's our mission every day. And we want to equip you, mom and dad, as you're raising the future generation. We offer a library of trusted resources, articles, programs like this one, videos, and more.
You can find that really in something we're calling Age and Stage. And that's when you have children 0 to 18, come to the website, find Age and Stage, put in your children's birth date, and we'll send you every week information on how to parent that three-year-old, that 15-year-old, all the way up to 18. And it is great content for you. And we also have Tim and Mark's wonderful book, What to Say and How to Say It, to you. Your teen, a parent's guide to 30 tricky conversations, very practical field manual that helps you tackle the toughest conversations with your teens using grace, biblical wisdom, and communication that builds trust.
Instead of pushing them away with legalism, I think every parent would say yes. And when you make a gift of any amount, hopefully a monthly pledge, that would really help us. We'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Let me give you the payback on what the ministry is doing. We got this note from Carly.
She said this, the insight I've gained from listening to your show helped me guide one of my teenage students through a very tense and difficult family situation with Christ honoring and respectful advice. That's right, what we were aiming for today, right? She went on to say, I'm incredibly grateful for what I've learned and I'm looking forward to applying it someday with my own kids. That is really great to hear. It is.
And I want to thank both of you for participating with us as authors just to provide that kind of content to the listeners and the viewers. Thank you for that. Great to be here. And as a teacher, Carly is taking what she's learned from Focus on the Family to influence the next generation and having an impact for Christ and that kind of ministry. is because of friends like you.
Yeah, make that monthly donation or one-time gift when you call 800, the letter A and the word family. That's 800-232-6459. Or you can sign up for the Agent Stage e-newsletter, make a donation, and request this book. When you stop by the show notes, you'll find all the details right there. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Sometimes you feel crazy in love with your spouse. Other times your spouse might drive you crazy. And sometimes it's both all at once. Marriage is a wild ride, but it's a beautiful, grand adventure as well.
So navigate all the ups and downs and in-betweens with Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage, a podcast from Focus on the Family. I'm Erin Smalley, and I co-host the podcast with my husband, Dr. Greg Smalley. We sit down with amazing guests to talk about all things marriage, like how do we stay connected or how do we continue growing as individuals or as a couple? Each episode will help you tackle problems you may be facing or just help you make your relationship even sweeter.
Listen to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage and other podcasts from Focus on the Family at focusonthefamily.com/slash podcast. That's focusonthefamily.com/slash podcast. Yeah.
