Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally.
So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor, wherever you get your podcasts. What I felt like was for us, everything was finally out there.
Now we could start healing. And that's the thing with secrets. You can't heal a marriage if you have secrets. And that's why we could never heal. That's Kathy Bush reflecting on a time when they really had to look at how things were going in their marriage.
Kathy and her husband Tim are back today with us on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. They're going to share more about how God helped restore their marriage. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. Tim and Kathy, and they're so honest about what they went through, their Christian conversion, and what that meant to them.
It was refreshing to just hear honest and open dialogue about brokenness in life. I think so often we try to sugarcoat that or we don't deal with what is true and therefore you don't get to whole healing with the Lord. You hide portions of it, right? People describe that as the closet that we don't let him go into, right? We put all the bad stuff in that closet.
But how refreshing this couple last time talking about the things they experienced, the things from childhood that kind of tilted them in that direction. We're going to continue that discussion today. Really, why? Why should this couple? Share their darkest moments with you and write this book, Sex on the First Date: a story of a broken beginning to a radically transformed marriage.
It's simple to help you. If you're in that spot, if there's darkness that you're going through, hey, take it from a broken couple how to get back to health. Yeah, this is a great example of how God can take pain and dysfunction and he can turn it into something really beautiful. And Tim and Kathy Bush have been married over 40 years. They have three grown children, eight grandchildren.
They've really recreated a legacy that they've given their family. They're speakers and founders of War Room Ministries. And as you said, Jim, they've written a book called Sex on the First Date. Learn more about our guests and this resource and other marriage helps that we have for you. We've got links for you in the show notes.
Tim and Kathy, welcome back. It's good to see you. Boy, we really did get into it last time. And, Kathy, I want to kind of pick up. Where we touched on last time, right at the end, we talked about.
Tim's infidelity and the space he was living in without the Lord, and drinking heavily, and the marriage falling apart. But I think Tim overheard a phone call that you had that really caused a turning point. Another turning point. You got a few turning points, but another turning point in your marriage. What was going on with that call and what did he overhear?
Yeah, this was. pretty much my rock bottom when I got caught. on this call and I had just recently gotten back from aesthetic school. And I'd gone away to school for seven months and I wasn't even sure I was going to come back to the marriage. Our kids were all out of the house at this point.
Our last one had graduated. And there was just something in me that, once again, I felt like I wanted to fight for this marriage. But I got back and I remember thinking, you know, maybe our marriage is just going to be. We're going to stay married. We'd been married for 25 years at this time.
We're going to stay married and I'm going to have an occasional affair. That's really, that's where my heart was. And I had a phone card that I had. had in school with some which I had called some old boyfriends on because I didn't want Tim to track my calls. And so I was just home and I was bored and I just thought of this guy and just wanted someone to talk to.
Our marriage was just kind of ho hum, I thought. And and so I just picked up the phone and called this guy. And uh Tim Had he, I thought he had left the house. He hadn't left the house. And he walked into my office and pretty much caught me.
And he He saw the phone card and I thought he's gonna find out. Every phone call on there, and this is going to be the end. And really, every point of our marriage where I had said I wanted a divorce, I find for some reason. I mean, I'm making it, this is how twisted my head was. I'm making this phone call to this guy, yet I'm still thinking I wanna be married.
So I was just confused. I'm just like, I don't even really know what I want. But yet now I'm in a corner. Tim's caught me on the phone, and Tim finally says, I can't do this anymore. I can't.
I really felt like this was the first time he said, I can't be married to you. And so at this point, I begged him. Because Like I said, there's something in me that wants to be married to him. And I beg him. I'm like, okay, I know that there's something wrong with our marriage, it's broken.
We can't. I knew of some of the infidelity. Tim hadn't shared all of it yet. But I knew that We either needed to figure out how to be married and be faithful, or just get a divorce. And I said, let's get some counseling.
And we had been in and out of counselors, but not really dedicated to that. And so at this point, Tim agreed to it, and we found a husband and wife team. And we started at this point a two year counseling process where I went to the wife and Tim went to the husband. Yeah. Before we get into the learnings of that, Tim, that day that you caught Kathy.
I mean, you're coming out of that too. It wasn't like it's all her fault. It was your fault too. And it's not even the issue of fault, it's brokenness. As you said, Kathy, you're operating out of your Past insecurities, your current insecurities, all those things that a counselor is going to unpack with you as to what motivates you to do the things that you did.
But in that moment, You were trying to think through how do I fix Kathy, right?
Well, it was always fixed Kathy. When we went to the counseling counselors before, it was always going to fix her because I just thought. most guys did at least some of the things that I did. It was a normal thing. And I really thought that this was a time where something had to happen different.
And I when I caught Kath on the phone, I thought to myself, you know what? I thought I was making deals with God. And I was gonna it was gonna be better. But I was realizing, you know, maybe God just doesn't want us to be married, and I'm not going to tell her everything because that was if I told her everything, then that would make me bad.
So I thought, you know, I think the only way out of this is probably a divorce now, and I could just start my life with somebody else. I could figure that out. And so at that point, I was that's the first time really I can say I was really done because there was no way I was going to tell Kath everything. How did you move from all of that to keeping in, you know, staying in the process of improving your marriage?
So you go from, I got to fix her. What was that transition to say, well, maybe it's not about fixing her, it's about fixing me?
Well, and that's what I tell guys nowadays, you always got to look in the mirror if you want to fix something in your marriage, what's looking back at you. But for me, I remember after going to counseling with Jake, and he was just transitioning that with me, kind of talking to me about it. And then when he finally said, you know, the issue in your marriage is you're not telling Kath everything. And that was after two years of counseling. 'Cause I hadn't told him either.
And so when I finally told him, it was like this relief came off me that when he told me I needed to tell her, and when I actually did tell her, And it took two hours. And she kept saying, Is that all? Is that all? Is that all? And then finally, when I said, Yeah, as best of my recollection, that's all.
Let me ask you, Kathy, with that kind of disclosure, and you know, every couple is going to be in a different place, and you should talk to a counselor about how to go about dealing with. Maybe on said things. We don't want to put a blanket here. But in that context, for a lot of wives particularly, that could be the dagger of death to that marriage. How did you absorb that?
And then say Okay, let's move forward. How did that happen?
Well, I think with that two years of counseling, and what's interesting is I thought in the counseling that Tim was being honest. I mean, I didn't think for a minute that he wasn't sharing. I mean, we're paying for counseling and we're wanting help in our marriage.
So I really thought that he was telling me everything in counseling. And actually, after the two years, I even told Tim, I said, you know, I don't need to do this anymore. Like, I felt like we were, we had worked through all we needed to work through. I felt like we were good. Enough.
I felt like it was enough. Like, you, you know, when you're done counseling. And I was 90% truthful. Yeah. Right.
No. And then at that turning point is when he started having anxiety.
So he kept seeing the counselor. But. What was interesting, I really think as Tim when Tim Started getting unhealthy with anxiety, depression, and that man that was so controlling in our marriage shifted. And he wasn't, he couldn't control anything. And so our marriage started to look different to where I was always controlled by Tim.
Well, now I had to step up and I had to take care of him. And my heart for him changed. And I felt like, for the first time in our marriage, I had a different kind of freedom, but I wanted to be there.
So when he at the at the point when he s told me everything, There was not one part of me that wanted to leave him. I was hurting for him and the burden he had been carrying. And actually, what happened with me was our marriage kind of started to make sense. Everything that I had been doing, and I would tell him, I realized he had been doing the same thing. What I felt like was for us, everything was finally out there.
Now we could start healing. And that's the thing with secrets. You can't heal a marriage if you have secrets. And that's why we could never heal. And Kath also talked about the anxiety starting.
And actually, that's when it became debilitating. I had anxiety off and on from my 20s, and it was for my lifestyle. I look back at it, I could work out or I could have a few drinks or do something to overcome it, but eventually that didn't work anymore. Because I say this all the time, I didn't become a man until I was 47 years old. I was a boy because of the way I handled things.
But that anxiety got debilitating where I could not even get up anymore.
Well, and it kind of goes to the pride of a man. Yeah. Right? And that's what the Lord was after, I think. Oh, he was.
He uses these circumstances or our sinfulness. To point us in a better way. That's the irony. I think it's what Paul says about how sin works in us and how God uses that. To draw us to him.
You know, Tim, you're very vulnerable as well, like Kathy, but we touched on it last time, but I did want to go a little deeper. stepdad who one of several stepdads Who beat you. Speak to that because this is also abuse, and you learn things in that environment that. Help you to cope, but end up being unhealthy.
So, describe what you went through as a child in a little more detail. Did you ever have reconciliation?
Well, I did. And when my brother passed away at age 43 in hospice, his dad was on the other side of the bed. And he was the stepdad. He was the stepdad. And I did tell him.
I want you to know that I forgive you for what you did to me when I was a little boy. But I wanted, I did that for my brother. I was not a Christian.
Somehow, something came into me to say that. And you're right at the bed. Your brother's hearing this? Yeah. Oh, yeah, he heard it.
Oh, wow. And how did the stepdad respond? He just didn't really say much, and he just kind of backed away and. Um but he did put me in the hospital twice from beating me. But my mom uh married another guy that did he also abused me physically too.
Looking back at it though, I want you to know that caused a lot in my marriage because Jake in counseling, he said, That's one of the deals. You're trying to survive. You're not going to let anybody control you. You're going to control everything because if you lose control, then there's a chance that you're going to get hurt because of your childhood. You know what's interesting with that?
You think of those things that happen to you. And then I I think God's given us those abilities to protect ourselves. But then... We need to hand it over to God. It's as if He's given us the tools as a child to get through horrific things, and we create these mechanisms of coping.
And then when the Lord says, okay. You got to give that back to me now. And how many adults never find that moment. They live in that control, they live in that victimization. You need that moment to say, okay, Lord, I got through that.
Thank you. 1 Peter 5:7, cast all your cares on me. You know, so it's, yeah, I get it. But it's so hard. It's so hard.
But how many crippled, emotionally crippled adults are there out there, even in the church, that have not been able to make that jump to say, God, I know you, own it all. Romans 8:28. All things work for good, seriously? All things? Seriously.
I mean, look what you guys have gone through. Can you say that? That all things have worked for good? I I believe so because without a doubt, because I can see how he's using that for others to help them. We don't know what part of our story is going to help somebody.
And we share we wrote the book just so if we could help one couple. And that happened early on. We know that.
So it was pretty cool.
So I get it. And we. We need to share our story out of obedience to the Lord. And that makes me think of 2 Corinthians chapter 1, where Paul talks about our comfort that we receive as being. Used by God to pass comfort onto others.
And this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And today we're talking about how God can heal your marriage, no matter how hopeless it seems. Tim and Kathy Bush have a terrific book. It's called Sex on the First Date: A Story of a Broken Beginning to a Radically Transformed Marriage. Get a copy of the book from us here at the ministry when you click the link in the show notes.
You know, yesterday you mentioned Pastor Bill, who counseled you even to leave the same church, go to a different church, right? Speak to the importance of the people in your lives that were those mentors. They may not have carried the label. But in some cases, they did. But speak to just the importance of where you're at today.
You must go into a church and. You look around and you could probably have a sixth sense. Of a couple that's in trouble. You could probably interact with a couple for 10 minutes, and your spiritual nose is. Can sniff that.
It definitely happens. Yeah, in that context, then how do you become that mentor? How do others like us? How do we become that mentor alert? Let me say something to that: that when you say that, I think about Tim and I and not having those mentors.
Yeah. You know, and not, and that's why it's so important when we are talking to couples or we'll have a group of couples over and we're like, you guys need to be sharing this with other people because people just don't know. I remember when I was handed that book, Experiencing God, and just knew, new Christian. I just wanted me to read it. I read it and I thought, why did nobody, why has nobody told me these things?
And I just realize it's so important. When Pastor Mel told Tim you need to be praying with Kathy, this is a great story. He comes home. We had been reading the Bible. He comes home and he says, Mel says I need to be praying with you.
So I was like, okay, so Tim starts praying.
So every day, Tim's praying, Tim's praying, he's saying a prayer, we're reading the Bible, he's praying. Ten months later, I finally looked at him and I said, Do you think when you get done praying, you cannot say in Jesus' name, in case I have something to say?
So we could pray together. But Mel said, you need to be praying with Kathy.
So he took it as he needs to be praying.
So now our bit, you know, when you said that about couples praying together. Yeah. The divorce rate goes way down.
Well, we do not miss a day. We pray together every single day. And we model that to other couples. Every one of our marriage classes, any kind of a Sunday night deal, no matter what it is, we model it. In fact, we have the couples do it, reach across to each other.
You'd be surprised how many couples that have been going to the Christian church, believers, 25, 30 years, never pray together.
Well, I think that, and maybe not reading the word together, too. That combination is so big, and we're seeing it in all the research on the strength of marriage, strength of family. But I was really curious about your kids because they're watching this marriage that's disastrous. And I don't know how much you shielded the kids when they were younger. But how to, just speak to that process of them watching this, your three children at what age did they ever say to you, mommy, why do you and daddy?
Fill in the blank. And then what did they see now at the end? And they've all become believers, which is awesome. For one thing in our book, in the QR videos, all of our kids are in there. And so it's fun to watch those videos because they're all taped at different times, but yet they're telling the same story.
This is our married kids, too.
So three biological, three married.
So all of our kids, they all talk. The in-laws, too. And the biggest thing with the kids, you know, when they were little. I mean, they say, you know, I was there when they were little. I was the on hands mom, and Tim was working.
And, you know, they would say, you know, I did a good job, and we shielded them. Know during those years, Tim just wasn't around a lot. He was working a lot. And then, but as they got older and they heard the fights, and TJ says in one of the videos, he'd hear us yelling late at night and wondered when we were going to get a divorce. And so.
But when things change for us, when we gave our life to the Lord, you know, there they were watching like they were suspect of it too a little bit another self-help thing they thought. They wondered how long it was going to last. Really? And a lot of our family did wondered how long it was going to last and thought we were Just, you know, it was just another thing that mom and dad were doing. But now it's been.
Sixteen. 16 years, yeah.
Well, TJ s would say it w you know, it wasn't different that we were even going to church, but he said it was a little weird. How we went about it because all of a sudden we were all in like a fire hose. Even our business, we were a BMW dealer. We changed everything. We closed on Sundays.
We took all the car pictures off the walls. We put fruit of the spirit paintings on the wall, scriptures on the TVs instead of ESPN. I mean, it was, I mean, everything changed. Music. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that, Tim, because you had your boys working with you.
They're my partners. And they saw these changes and it was kind of distressing to them. You were kind of a Jesus freak.
Well, they didn't like it. They talked to their mom. Oh, TJ called me one day and he says, He says, mom, you have to get dad to stop. And I said, What? What are you talking about?
And he goes, Mom. We are a BMW car dealership. We are selling cars here. And dad is talking to all of our customers about Jesus. And he's praying with the customers.
You got to get him to stop. That's awesome. I was a fire hose. You know what? We were selling.
We were hitting all of our numbers with BMW. Our customer satisfaction was the top in the country. We were really doing well. You probably saved a couple of marriages along the way. But they're rid of BMW and get your marriage saved.
All the same. But there were tensions with the boys. Yeah, especially with Blake. We had the music. As soon as I would leave the dealership, he would change it and I would change it back.
Well, finally, we had cameras everywhere and over the top of the sound system. It was a high-end sound system. And in the closet, I put a sign, whoever changes this next does not work here anymore. And I signed my name.
So I get called to the sales office, Tim Bush sales office. And so I go to the sales office and say, Dad, I'm going to close the door and I want you to listen to me. Dad, I don't even know who you are anymore. I don't you know. We're trying to run a business here.
And I don't know what to do with him. How old is he at this time? He's at this time in I would say mid-twenties. And I said, I said, So, Blake, let me ask you this. And this came from the Lord because it wasn't for me.
He said, Did you like me better before or do you like me better now? Mm.
Now that you say that I like you better now. I said, okay, dude, let's just get back to work and not mess with the radio anymore. Everything's good, right? It all gets back to the coolest thing, he talks about this in one of the QR code videos too. He said, you know, after I talked to my dad, I kind of felt like maybe I need to do something with my faith.
And it wasn't very long after that. He gave his life to the Lord. And not only did he give his life to the Lord. He actually got up at the church that we were attending, the largest church in the Tri-Cities, and shared his testimony. Yeah.
Oh, man.
So, yeah.
Well, and I think, you know, when I look at that. How many parents are going? I totally blew it spiritually. I didn't model the right things for my kids. That right there demonstrates that can be corrected.
I mean, the result is in the hands of the Lord. But for you to be able to have that conversation with your son, that's a brilliant conversation.
Well, Jim, we talked about those stakes in the ground yesterday. And I think when you really think about your stakes, when you think about how your impact goes. 100 years from now, no one's gonna know us. But what we do today could impact our great-great-great-grandkids that we don't even know. And so, some if we're literally loving Jesus and accept Him, and our kids do, and our grandkids do, and we see that.
There's a video, it's our favorite one, it's the shortest one, too, about our grandkids. And our grandkids talk about Us and how we are in marriage. And our littlest grandkid, she says, When I grew up, I want to have coffee with my husband. And the reason she says that because she sees Kath and I drinking coffee and reading the Bible and praying together. She's six now, but she was four and a half when that happened.
So they see everything. Yeah. Well, again, in that modeling, you know, we don't understand how we model things before Christ, after Christ. And if we're not doing it well, the kids see it and they understand it and they start to repeat it. That's the breaking of the cycles that you've talked about the last couple of days.
And this has been terrific. I mean, that's what's so good. Kathy, and really, let's end with both of you answering this question. You know, those couples that. feel stuck, they're identifying, your story has so much.
So many touch points with people, whether it was childhood abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, whatever it might have been. how that distorted how you process life. And then how God reeled you in, even with all those shortcomings. I am amazed that you guys are married. I mean, it's that kind of story.
It's like. Oh my, if a couple can survive this. Couples can survive anything. And you guys have demonstrated that.
So really, it's that last piece of advice to the couple watching or listening, going, man, we're living part of that story. What do we need to do to have what they have? What do you say to them?
Well, first, I want to say, not are we just married, but we are in a thriving marriage. Because there's a difference because we were just married for a lot of years. But I th I would say the biggest thing is hang in there, be committed, and With the power of Christ, you can have a thriving marriage. And I know for Tim and I, our commitment to being in God's word every day, you've talked about that so much. And I know there's so many Christians out there that don't read God's Word.
And if you don't. Know the blueprint for your life and what God wants for your life, you're not going to know. I didn't know what God wanted for me as a wife, I had no idea what my role was as a wife until I read it in the word. I mean, He tells us how to live our life and how to live it so that we're blessed. And I believe that If you're a wife and you're struggling in your marriage, the first thing that you need to do is get your life right with Christ.
And that's how you're going to have a great marriage. You're going to be a great wife. But it's just getting lined up with Christ. And it's not just the head knowledge of them. No.
It's got to be the heart, the head. It's reading it, it's living it. And when you make mistakes, apologize, and keep moving. I think those are the paybacks. Tim, that's pretty good.
I know it's pretty good to it.
Well, I really do have just a couple. I agree with Kathy and everything she said. I can tell you that. When you realize that your wife, and guys, I'm talking to you, whether you're not a Christian or you're thinking about it, or you're a long-term believer. Your wife's a gift from God.
She's the daughter of the king. And Mm-hmm. I want her to feel that way. and grabbing her hand and praying with her and then when I say Every day I thank God for the gift of my wife, and she hears that. I think there's something powerful in that.
Every wife wants to feel like she's a gift. and other than my salvation, cath is my greatest gift on this earth. And I couldn't always say that because I used to think I was my greatest gift. And so, and that's a complete transformation because she is.
So amazing, but seeing our sons see that and their wives, and seeing our grandkids see us. And how they interact with Kath and their girlfriends. I love it. And I think long-term believers could catch something from that too. Without a doubt, without a doubt.
Tim and Kathy, your honesty has been so refreshing. And to those of you listening, I hope you feel a renewed energy to be intentional in building your family on a foundation of faith, whatever stage of life you're in. We have so many great resources to help you do that. One of those resources is Hope Restored. If you're facing a crisis in your marriage, or even if you just feel stuck in a rut, which many of us married couples do from time to time, I hope you'll consider attending.
And you know, divorce statistics are still devastating. Too many marriages are breaking up, but particularly Christian marriages. And we can help reduce that number significantly. Hope Restored has an 80% post-two-year success rate. That means 80% of the couples that have gone through the program two years later are still married and doing better.
That is worth it. investigating. One of the ways you can participate in ministry with us is by donating. When you make a donation of any amount, you can get a copy of Tim and Kathy's book, Sex on the First Date, as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry and helping other couples. Yeah, find information about Hope Restored, donate, and get your copy of Tim and Kathy's book, Sex on the First Date, when you call 800, the letter A and the word family.
800-232-6459. or we've got details for you in the show notes. And thanks for listening today to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Sprinkle some love into your marriage this month with the Loving Well podcast from Focus on the Family.
I'm Aaron Smalley, and I host the podcast with my husband, Dr. Greg Smalley, and our good friend, John Fuller. We chat about how to put Christ at the center of your relationship, deepen your love, and have a marriage that truly thrives. Listen today at focusonthefamily.com/slash lovingwell or wherever you get your podcasts.
