Summer is my favorite time to be out and about with my kids. And while we're on the go, we love listening to episodes of Adventures in Odyssey. It's a fun way to teach my kids biblical values. We love listening so much. We are now members of the Adventures in Odyssey Club.
Now we have access to over a thousand episodes and can listen whenever we want. You can join the club today at adventures and odyssey.com. That's adventures at Odyssey.com. Justin and Tricia Davis are back with us on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And last time, Justin stated how he really wanted to break some bad habits that developed in their marriage over the years.
I didn't want just God to fix our issues, and I didn't want. A 2.0 version of our marriage. I wanted a brand new relationship. And in order for that to happen, God promises resurrection. and he promises new beginnings, but the problem with resurrection is something has to die.
This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. John, you're right. We spoke to this great couple yesterday.
And if you missed it last time, go to the website or get the smartphone app and do what you need to do because there is so much good content in there, which may be describing in some way the marriage that you're in. And that's why we do this: to help you recognize where you're at. And if you need help, to be able to get that help and to have a marriage that really is thriving in Christ. That's our whole goal. And from time to time, Gene and I struggle too.
I'm sure you and Dina do.
So, I mean, it's just part of life. And, you know, being able to see those things and then work toward a better outcome is what we want to talk about today. Our guests, Justin and Tricia, last time talked about coming to the end of their senses in their marriage. And Justin had had an affair. He was a pastor of a church.
Both of them were pastoring this church. And it was over. It looked like it was over, but God began to talk to Trisha's heart, to Justin's heart, and over time through counseling and good, godly advice and a change of heart, they were able to find a way through it, which is remarkable in and of itself. We're going to pick up where we landed last time and begin to talk about guilt and shame and some of the other things they had to deal with. Their story is captured in the book, One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back.
You can learn more about this and about the ministry that they founded called Refine Us Ministries. We'll have the links in the show notes. Justin and Tricia, welcome back. Thanks for having us again. Yeah, it's good.
You know, I'm sitting here thinking, I referenced you. You know, I said great couple. Yeah. Years ago, you would never have thought that. Think of that, though.
Think of King David. I mean, he had some bad stuff happen, right? He made bad choices, what we're talking about. And yet, the Lord. healed him.
and heal to you. And that's the great hope we have here. You're like a modern-day example of what God can truly do in a marriage. And you guys were utterly broken. You had an affair, you had all the right responses of being hurt, and then God began to heal your hearts.
And again, we talked about that, and there were some great truths in that. One thing I didn't get to last time that I really wanted to, so we'll kick off here. was this distinction between guilt and shame. Justin, I mean he had issues with pornography addiction. You were sexually abused as a child.
It had to feel overwhelming. Like shame.
So let's start with you and then ask Trisha to fill in. When Trish and I were going through the restoration process, part of that was we moved to a different town. Obviously, I got out of ministry. started working in the corporate world and we really just started our life all over. And we were still going to counseling consistently, but I just could not shake the shame.
It just kind of followed me around like this dark cloud. And I'll never forget being in our kitchen probably six or seven months after we moved and kind of started over. And we were in a really good place. And Trish just said to me, she said, Justin, God has forgiven you. I've forgiven you.
You have got to forgive yourself. or all of this work we're doing. If you can't overcome this shame, then it's going to become a repeated cycle. And I began to really understand that shame and conviction are two different things. Shame says, Not just what you did is wrong, but you are wrong for what you did.
You are never going to change. You're always going to be the same person. You're never going to be able to overcome this. Conviction and guilt are a gift from the Holy Spirit because conviction and guilt say this is wrong. Yeah, you are guilty of doing it.
God has something better in mind for you and you've not chosen it. And so shame is this opportunity to stay in the sin that we committed, even though we've been forgiven for it. Where guilt is the opportunity to confess the sin that we've committed so we can be forgiven. You know, Tricia, again, another question from last time. And for those that are just picking up the conversation, I mean, you're hearing all this.
You're hearing about his porn addiction. You're hearing about... his sexual abuse as a child, which had to open and crack your heart. open a bit. but he also had an affair with your best friend.
There are wives going, are you crazy, Tricia? I mean, really, you probably had friends that were saying that. Aren't you done? Yeah. How could you go back?
Because it's a window into them. If this happened to them, they're expressing what they would do, the attitude they would have, I would think. And, you know, Passing judgment on what you should do. You shouldn't. How could you stay in that marriage?
How could you do that? How did you manage those conversations and those even maybe moments of Self-doubt through the counseling process. Like, am I really doing the right thing? When you said, God forgives you, and I forgive you, you really meant that? Yes, but forgiveness is free, trust is earned.
So those are two totally different conversations. And we understand forgiveness almost as the finish line, or forgiveness is the starting line. Forgiveness is really about us because you can offer forgiveness regardless of how the person. Receives it, and what I've been learning then that is true all these years later is that. Forgiveness doesn't excuse the person's behavior.
It prevents their behavior from destroying your heart. And so, it opens you to the possibilities of redemption. But trust is earned, and trust is built with truth. And so, the people that were struggling all these years later, I'm able to see exactly what you said. It's a mirror to either their understanding or lack of understanding or their own pain.
And when you have that experience of breakthrough, it does one or two things to the people around you: it either inspires them, that breakthrough is true for them. or it provides a mirror. where they feel stuck. And so it's learning how to hold space for people that I couldn't change Justin all those years ago. And I certainly can't change my friend's responses.
I always think of Job of all of the Bible next to like Leviticus. Job just frustrates me when I read the Bible because I'm like, y'all aren't even going through this stuff. And you've got feels and thoughts that you're like pouring on him. And it's like everybody's in process.
So part of. Part of that is, I had to learn who were the right people to put around me. And the people I needed were those that were for us. That were for God, that were for the healing journey, even when they didn't understand, but then also had the authority to say, I'm not sure that that's a healthy choice. right now.
And it it was messy. It wasn't clear, you know, every day. But because I allowed those voices to speak into me, it helped keep me on the right path. Yeah. Both of you had um Obviously growing up you had parents.
I want to touch into that because that was an aha and let's start with you Trish. Your parents seemingly were really healthy and moving along and seemed like bedrock. kind of people. What happened? And how did you process what you saw as a younger woman and then what happened with your parents' marriage and how did that impact you?
I always joke with my counselor. I'm like, am I, is there something in me that God was like, when he was shaping me, he was like, I'm just going to give her rose-colored glasses. And is the way that I remember my childhood is this very strong narrative that my parents didn't know Jesus, you know, when they were, when they met. They went through horrible tragedy. I mean, my mom lost her parents, her dad in eighth grade and then her mom two years later, her sophomore year.
So my parents were like the breakthrough couple. They, they did, you know, drugs. They smoked marijuana when I was little. And I had no, it was just, they lived a party life. They were babies having babies.
And then they found Jesus. And in my mind, when they found Jesus, Everything changed, and it did change. But not to the level that I assumed it did. And so we were a year into our marriage when my dad came out that he was a closet alcoholic and had been unfaithful to my mom. And it It destroyed me.
And it shaped my, it almost put like another exclamation point on: I'm not, my motto was: I'm going to not be that. Rather than I'm going to be healthy, I'm going to learn from that. And so the first 10 years of our marriage, I was operating as if Justin was going to have an affair. Even though there was no indication at the time that he would. But attitudinally, it's the vibe you were giving.
Yes. And I didn't even know. Yeah. I mean, that's really what that is, is a lack of trust. And that comes out, and then that comes over to you, Justin.
I mean, dealing with all this, what were your parents and what was happening with your folks?
Well I think we We don't understand the expectations and the things from our families that we bring into our marriage relationships when we get married. There's a lack of understanding in that. My parents also got married 15 days after I was born. My mom got pregnant in high school. And so I grew up really poor, very, you know, very aware of the brokenness that my parents had.
Then they found Christ, and we started going to church all the time. But looking back now, You know, as a 50-year-old person. person My dad didn't tell me how to be deceitful. He didn't teach me how to lie. But when I was in high school, I would go to my dad and he would say, Hey, do you have enough money for tonight?
And I would say, I could always use more. And he would take a $5 bill out of his wallet. It was all folded up. and he would say, Here's five dollars, don't tell your mom I gave it to you. And so there was this.
awareness that I had that my dad was hiding things from my mom and if I let her know that At minimum, she would be disappointed or cause conflict.
Well, as we started our marriage relationship, that shaped not wanting to have conflict shaped how I interacted with Trish. And so she had suspicions about. Not just me, but about marriage in general, about faithfulness. And I had this propensity to avoid conflict at all costs, which caused hiddenness. And so we were operating out of this dysfunction that we didn't even know we had, that became a part of our marriage equation that ended up obviously.
Revealing itself. When everything hit rock bottom, yeah, and so often we refer to these things in the Christian community as generational sins. You know, these are just things that we pick up so astutely as children and we inculcate them into our behavior. I mean, it's why we have sayings like, people don't fall far from the tree, right? And because we do pick up a lot of our behavior from our parents, good and bad.
In that regard, I mean, this thing is like a box of coat hangers for you. You then found out through DNA testing something about your parents. What was that?
So wild. It just keeps going. Your listeners are going to go, what is happening right now? But you know what's good about this? If you, then why not me?
In terms of knowing God, loving God, and having God help me to, you know, live a life that's honoring to him because, man, you got the whole thing set up. Stacked against you.
So, what happened with the DNA test?
Well, my dad is Hispanic, and they're starting to age. And so, I just went on ancestry to start a family tree. I believe Justin's mom had done it at some point, or someone in their family.
So, it's just very innocent. And it came back that I had zero Hispanic. And I it was just very confusing.
Now, my dad is a you know, short little Mexican man with dark hair, dark skin. He he just um recently sadly passed away. But um I'm blonde hair, blue eyes. And people were like, Did you ever suspect? And I said, Never.
I'm such my dad's daughter. Like, we like to work with our hands. We like to like all the things. He was your dad in that way. Yeah, just our weirdo things.
We were a lot alike, and I look a lot like my mom.
So that, you know, that happens. And so when it came back, it unraveled. It took what when we were on here all these years ago and wrote Beyond Ordinary. I have used that as an opportunity to share with the world this gift of forgiveness and what forgiveness means. And now it was like, Was I wrong?
I thought I was a forgiveness expert, and now I'm realizing this story unfolding that my mom had an affair when she was. You know, she was young. It was so much grace for this young girl who made this decision. And I was the product of an affair.
So there's one aspect of it. And you and your mom talked about that, or how did that discussion very messy unfolding and not a lot of honesty given? It was a pretty traumatic experience. And what made it even more difficult is that my dad didn't know. Yeah.
And so having to tell my dad that he wasn't my biological father was just, it was just gutting. But then to add just to the chaos, in the same week, Justin had found out in 2009, when our story kind of unfolded about being a person of truth and, you know, being a truth teller, Justin's mom confessed to him in 2009 that his dad wasn't his biological dad.
So both of you shared that experience.
So I had that experience in 2009 where my mom confessed this. And in 2014, I met who my mom said was my biological father. And a few months before he passed away, And I said to Trish as we were walking out of the nursing home, I said, that's not the guy. She goes, what do you mean? I said, that's not my dad.
She goes, I know, honey, it's a lot to take in. I said, no. You just knew. That isn't my biological father. And so, about a week before Trish did ancestry DNA, I did it as well.
And my results came in six days after Tricia had found out that her dad wasn't her dad for the first time. And I found out that my dad wasn't my dad again.
So the person that my mom told me was my biological father was not. And so we were both, and this is in 2021, so this is, you know, not that long ago, and we were both going through this traumatic experience, me for the second time. Trish for the first time. Together. A little caveat, though, is we are not related.
Our dads aren't the same guy. That's light-hearted. That's a silver lining. My goodness. But it does, I mean, it just keeps unraveling.
It's an amazing story that you guys have. It was one of those things where I'm so grateful. For the process of forgiveness and the process of restoration and reconciliation that we had gone through in our marriage, because it was this solidifying moment in our story and for our family, where Trisha had already modeled for me what forgiveness looked like. And so I could almost use her template. Of forgiving my mom and forgiving the people who had kept this secret from me my whole life.
Well, and the scripture jumps into my mind is where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. I mean you guys had a bucket of sin in your families. Yes. And you know, we all do. That's the reality.
But you guys just got hit with it left, right and center, and it just kept coming. Wow. And it seems the Lord just continued to bring back what you said earlier, Tricia, that forgiveness is the beginning. It's not the goal.
Well, there's so much here to this story, and if you didn't catch the Prior part of today, or last time, we've got it on the mobile app or online. And get a copy of this book for the full story and so much more. Justin and Tricia Davis are our guests. They've written One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. We've got copies of that book here.
Just stop by the show notes for the details. And in the book you talk about cycles, and this is one of those dangerous cycles of unforgiveness because that tends to be kind of coloring all of our relationships.
So speak to that and talk about the long term damage of unforgiveness. Bitterness in and of itself gets a bad rap because it's not healthy, obviously. But I don't think people choose to be unforgiving people. I think that we choose bitterness because it's a place of safety. If you can think about it, of building a wall.
So every time someone tries to hurt us and we put another brick on the wall of bitterness, we convince ourselves, I'm going to build this wall so you can't have access to my heart. But over time, what happens is that you build walls so high and so surrounding that you miss out on the life that God has called you to. And so learning, you know, being stuck in that becomes isolating. You can be hyper-vigilant. You keep yourself, you know, I've had to learn that my rose-colored glasses are not a gift.
It's not reality. It's kind of smoothing over the rough edges. But when my life was shattered, now again, with my whole life, like my whole life was a lie. That was a. Really, a lot to take in.
But the glasses I was putting on, they were shattered, but they became a prism. Of God working through my pain. And so my capacity, now I could not say this week one or maybe year one, but now a couple of years out, the process of forgiveness not only was setting me free, but it was setting my mom free. I said to my mom just recently, I love that you get to walk in truth for the first time. in forty-eight years.
You don't have to carry this lie anymore. In seeing that gift of freedom for her, even though what's on the other side of it for me, that's where instead of living in the danger of bitterness and resentment that just flows into other relationships, forgiveness we often feel is like. Oh, just forgive and forget. We talk about this in the book, some of those attributes that we put to forgiveness that are not real, that forgiveness is a one-time thing, or you don't have the capacity to forgive. I had to remember that forgiveness is God-given.
It's not man-made. Hmm. And that's, Jesus gives us this powerful example. Of what it means to offer that sacrificial forgiveness, but we can't stop there. And not to feel like I'm preaching a sermon, but.
It is where we stop. We stop at the cross, but the story doesn't end there. Jesus literally walks out of the grave and flips sin up on its head. And that's the truth that we get to live in now. The forgiveness I offer my mom, yes, brings freedom to me, but it also opens a doorway for her to feel love and acceptance by her heavenly Father that I have the power, that God has given me that authority to pour over her.
So then it becomes less just about my circumstances, but more about the bigger picture of the call of Christ. Yeah. I think the other aspect here is we wind down our time together, it was four years. Of reconciliation. It wasn't four days, four weeks, four months.
Four years is a long grind. Describe that. We equate success with the pain going away. And so I think when Trish and I had to make this choice of reconciliation, she mentioned this earlier. It was whatever it takes.
And we had to be comfortable in the uncomfortability of being honest. of recognizing our wounds. Our counselor said something to us. Early on, he said, you can't heal a wound you don't give a name to. And so we had to identify the wounds that we were carrying and the wounds that we had inflicted and be willing to go on the long journey.
And I'll tell you guys Four years sounds like a long time. But 20 years later, It was so worth it. Yeah, that's good to hear. I wouldn't trade any of those counseling sessions. I wouldn't trade any of that time in because who we are 20 years later and who we were.
You know, two years into that reconciliation process, I would take it over and over again. That's pretty awesome, actually. I mean, you've gone through a tough journey, but what a great journey. I want to mention Refine Us ministries. First of all, who wants to say, Lord, refine us?
That's a dangerous prayer. That's a prayer you avoid, but you shouldn't. We've tried to change the name many times. I'm done. I'm done.
I'm not refined us. I'm ready for that. God, we're done being refined.
Well, let's put it in past tense: refined ministries. We've been there and done that. We say that tongue-in-cheek because it's so true. I mean, this is what this life is about and what it's for, I think. Yeah.
So we can recognize those things. And when, you know, if you were to put a speedometer on that, I mean, you guys did 120 in terms of refine us. I mean, here it all is out of the bag. Anything left in that bag? No, Lord, it's empty.
You're shaking it upside down. I think you got it all, God. I don't know many human beings actually end up in that life experience. There's always something in the bag. Bag.
I mean, it's such an amazing thing. But speak to what your ministry does: refine us, and let's see how many people show up. You, I've never heard anybody put it that way before, and it's so powerful. Refinement is a choice that we all have. That's the different choice.
And we all talk about Adam and Eve and what happened in the garden, but they had a choice. And just because they made the choice to choose their own doesn't mean that they didn't have the choice to choose God. And so, regardless, the person listening or watching, they may think that that could never be my story. The only reason we have a refined marriage is because you had two people who chose it. I could love God the best of my ability, but it couldn't change Justin, and vice versa.
And so. This refinement process of what we do is help you have tools. Really, the heart of the book is. How are we still standing? How did we make that choice?
And Refinest Ministries exist to help people not just put up with your relationships, but truly thrive and find healing and hope in a way that isn't culturally based, but is God designed? Yeah. We say we go first to give you permission to go second. And so, you know, for the person that's listening or watching, we hope that you think, well, I'm not as bad as they are, right? Because we need something to give us hope that transformation is possible.
And so we don't leverage our story for our own glory. We leverage it for the glory of God who has brought about healing and transformation. Yeah, that's so good. Let me ask this just because your laughter. I'm sorry.
No, no, it tips. Don't be sorry because I think humor is so crazy. critical. And you can't always laugh. But if you lose the ability to laugh, you're in a bad spot, I think.
And how did you maintain a sense of humor? Not always there, but I could tell you both have great senses of humor. Did that ever come into play in your relationship in the hard times? We have learned that you can, I call it the both and. We almost feel like when we're in really traumatic or hard things, that if we laugh, it somehow makes it feel like we're still not in pain.
But recognizing the both and, like the joy of the Lord is our strength. And it's why James tells us to find it pure joy when we're going through crazy stuff. And when you're able to see that, it does give you a heart to find joy and to laugh. My daughter, we adopted several years ago our son and daughter when they were seven and nine. And they have wild, hard stories, but she says we laugh so we don't cry.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's true. There is that moment. Think about when we go to a funeral and remember somebody's life. There is both the pain of loss and then the joy of remembrance. And our story isn't all loss.
It we won. Like our marriage, we we won. And for the person's heart, like Jesus won. Like we, that's where the joy is, that we can laugh. And that is, we just talk all the time.
You have to, just as much as you search for the pain, you have to be willing to live in the joy.
Well, Tricia and Justin, you have brought some incredible insight into marriage and healthy marriage and relationship with Christ through all of it. You've done such an incredible job, really. And I just thank you for that example for every couple. to know more about. And you can get a copy of their book by contacting us here at Focus on the Family.
John will give those details in a moment. But what a great place to start. If you can make a gift of any amount, monthly or one-time gift, that really helps us do more ministry. And you can jump in with us. That accrues to your account in heaven, not ours.
We're just the conduit. But join us. And if you can't afford it, we get it. Not everybody's in that spot. Just let us know you need the book and we'll get it to you.
And trust someone else will cover the cost of that. Yeah, we're a phone call away, 800, the letter A and the word family. We've got details about donating and getting a copy of this book. Also, Hope Restored, our marriage intensives, all at the website, and we'll have those links in the show notes. And we could really use your financial contribution right now because we're experiencing a bit of a summer budget shortfall.
So if you're able to help us today, that would be great.
Now, coming up tomorrow, understanding how much your teen wants to grow up.
somewhere in every teenager's soul, Is the question, hey? I'm beginning to look and think and act more like an adult. When will you say that I am completely an adult. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
If the fights with your spouse have become unbearable, if you feel like you can't take it anymore, there's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage Intensives have helped thousands of couples like yours. Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face them together. Call us at 1-866-875-2915. We'll talk with you, pray with you, and help you find out which program will work best.
That's 1-866-875-2915.
